BI WIRE EXPERIENCE DARK SIDE

To glean the greatest benefit from bi-wiring, the speakers's crossover should be designed for it....if not, using a double run of speaker cable will still give you positive results...this is called Shotgun. For the best wire to use, shy away from cable that is manufactured with 2 inputs on one end and 4 to be connected to the speaker...use seperate wires.

DB, the only way I can envision that causing any damage, especially given that you will be keeping the volume low, would be if the amp happened to be on the verge of failing anyway, and doing that would put it over the edge.

I wouldn't totally rule out the possibility, though, that the amp's short circuit protection mechanisms, as mentioned in the manual, might interpret the combined loads as being a short, and shut down the amp. I say that in particular because the impedance curve of the LS50, as shown here, dips to 4 ohms around 200 Hz. So the combined impedances would be seen by the amp as about 2 ohms around that frequency. The fact that you would be connecting to the MF/HF terminals of the mains doesn't change that.

My guess, though, is that there would be no problem at all.

Regards,
-- Al

I use a pair of 4Ω KEF Reference 107/2 mains, double bi-wired to a Proceed HPA-3 amp. I expect delivery of a pair of LS50s for use as surrounds, but it requires a bit of carpentry to remove the existing 102 surrounds. In the meantime, I wondered about connecting the 8Ω LS50s to the cable that now goes to MF/HF terminals of the 107/2s for a trial. The amp is 500 watts/channel into 4Ω, 250 into 8Ω. Could I damage anything at fairly low sound levels with such a mix of impedances?

db

Thanks, Al.

04-05-15: Springbok10
Almarg, do you believe that is harmful, for instance to use a copper cable such as Cardas Golden Cross on high frequencies and Clear Day, silver, on low frequencies?

Not necessarily, Denis. Consider, for example, that some highly regarded manufacturers of amplifiers and speakers suggest that in situations where tube amps are being used it may sometimes be desirable to use different amplifier taps for the highs and the lows. That certainly figures to have more of an effect on differences between the highs and the lows than the type of metal that is used in the speaker cables. Different amplifier taps have significantly different signal voltages on them.

That said, if the impedance of the low frequency section of the speaker is low, and/or if the length of the cable is long, personally I'd be hesitant to use a silver cable such as Clear Day for that connection, at least in anything less than the double shotgun version. The relatively narrow gauge of the lesser versions, and of some of the silver speaker cables from other manufacturers, IMO can result in a high enough resistance to be a concern under those circumstances. The opinions of others about that may differ in some cases, but given that the resistance of copper is only about 6 to 8% higher than the resistance of silver, for equal gauge and length, if those other opinions are correct there would seem to be no need for the very heavy gauges of the copper cables many audiophiles use. (Increasing the diameter of a conductor by just one gauge size reduces its resistance by about 20%).

Best regards,
-- Al

Almarg, do you believe that is harmful, for instance to use a copper cable such as Cardas Golden Cross on high frequencies and Clear Day, silver, on low frequencies?

The current is alternating, not the music. Hel-loo! It's the signal that's going to the speakers you have to worry about, anyway, not the one going in the opposite direction. Duh!

How could directivity be a factor when music signal is AC??!!

FWIW, I would disagree with the statement in the Audioquest paper that was referenced by Tony (Tls49). That statement being:

When BiWiring, the two (bass and treble) cables must either be identical, or have essentially identical geometries. If the cables have different geometries they will have different capacitance and inductance. Capacitance and inductance are the values used to create a loudspeaker’s low-pass and high-pass filter networks, together making a crossover. Having different values in the two cables effectively redesigns the crossover...not a good thing! The integrity and coherence of the speaker will be compromised.

As is often the case in cable marketing literature, effects are claimed as being audibly significant without being put into quantitative perspective.

The value of the capacitors in speaker crossovers are typically in the area of several microfarads (uf) or more, and generally have tolerances (sample-to-sample variations) in the area of +/- 3% to 5% or even more. The capacitance of most speaker cables of reasonable length will be in the rough vicinity of 0.01% of several uf. Which is not only a miniscule fraction of the value of the crossover capacitors, but is even a miniscule fraction of the variations in capacitance between supposedly identical capacitors.

In the case of a few speaker cables having extremely high capacitance, such as Goertz, the 0.01% figure may increase to the point of being a significant fraction of 1%, but it will still be much lower than variations among supposedly identical capacitors.

Likewise for inductance. Although the inductance of different speaker cables can differ considerably, as a rough order of magnitude it can be assumed that the inductance of a 10 foot length of speaker cable will often fall in the rough vicinity of 1 to 3 microHenries (uH) or thereabouts, and in some cases will be much less than that. That is a negligible fraction of the inductance of nearly all crossover inductors.

Which is not to say that cable inductance is necessarily insignificant. If speaker impedance is low at high frequencies, as it especially tends to be with electrostatic speakers for example, the impedance presented by the inductance of some cables at those high frequencies may be audibly significant (as the impedance presented by an inductance increases in proportion to frequency). However, that would have nothing to do with whether the low frequency cable has the same inductance or a different inductance than the high frequency cable.

The bottom line: **If** in fact it is preferable to use identical high frequency and low frequency cables when biwiring, it is not because of the reason stated in the Audioquest paper.

IMO. Regards,
-- Al

In my temporal cortex where sound is interpreted. Ears are conduits of sound which are then experienced in the brain. Any more questions?:)

"Given all the hogwash and theories by the millions of why some cables sound better or worse, I'll just keep listening to my ears. If the amps explode, c'est la vie.........
Springbok10 (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"

How do you listen to your ears?

I think I'll just keep adding wires until there is no more room on the posts or the amps explode because of close to zero resistance of the aggregate zero gauge cable. Given all the hogwash and theories by the millions of why some cables sound better or worse, I'll just keep listening to my ears. If the amps explode, c'est la vie.........

Any comments on why this could be "bad"?

Look at my first post.

"Any comments on why this could be "bad"?"

If you don't like the sound, it could be bad.

I think that clearly the way to go is to use a specific cable for the positive speaker post and, after testing several dozen cables in this case, a different brand and type for the negative wire. Repeat this for biwiring and you should wind up with two to four disparate wire types for each speaker. Also try each reversed to make sure they were branded for directivity properly...this entire operation should take about 6 weeks but the results can be amazing, or simply a complete waste of time.

I have been bi wiring and biamping with different speaker cables for top end and bottom end with what I hear are good results. silver on one frequency and copper on the other. Even doubling up on cables with even better results? Clear Day and Analysis plus oval 9s. Any comments on why this could be "bad"?

Lets shout!!

"The way to go is actually good single amp matching speakers with good single wire. The rest is either joke or just toys.
Czarivey (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"

In many cases that will be true. But the results you get from bi wiring can vary quite a bit, going from system to system. Same thing is true with bi amping. But with bi amping, you have to be more careful. I find the only way that works properly is a vertical bi amp configuration. Horizontal poses too many problems, its not worth the trouble.

I just happen to have 2 pairs of speakers that are opposite of each other, in this regard. They make for a good example. In my main system, I have a pair of Vandersteen 2's. Bi wiring on those speakers is almost mandatory. (Keep in mind that Vandersteen was the one who came up with the concept originally, so it kind of makes sense that his speakers benefit the most) The difference that bi wiring provides is closer to a component upgrade, than a tweak. Its just one of those things that you need to hear, to believe it. And you don't need to use expensive cables either. I have 2 separate pairs of AQ CV-8, which are not too costly, as cables go. They easily beat a single run of Tara 2's that cost a lot more.

As far as vertical bi amping goes, I get a big improvement with a 2nd Ayre V-5, as opposed to just one. As always though, the amount of improvement (if any), will vary depending on many factors.

Comparing that to my 2nd system, its pretty much the opposite. I have Wilson Cubs and they don't even allow for bi amping or bi wiring of any kind. Wilson doesn't believe in the concept. Also, my Tara 2's sound a lot better than the CV-8. So in this case, the use of 1 pair of more expensive cables is easily justified.

I would have never guessed.

Polk,
I'm not racist :-)

Czarivey, you forgot to mention TUBES being the only way to go. I have a single amp single wires great speakers and do not allow SS on my property. I simply used to biwire speakers that had the option to keep out dust. There was never any difference in sound, and I've owned some really nice speakers. I roll them more than tubes.

I agree...only bi-wire with the same wire.

04-02-15: Polk432
Akg plus 1 I only biwire to keep out the dust. It never really seemed to help, no matter what type of speakers I've owned. BiAmping is the real way to go.

The way to go is actually good single amp matching speakers with good single wire. The rest is either joke or just toys.

Akg plus 1 I only biwire to keep out the dust. It never really seemed to help, no matter what type of speakers I've owned. BiAmping is the real way to go.

Use the same wire for best sound.

if those are the speaker wire pairs you are contemplating, then you bi-amp them ....not bi-wire ....full stop.

I've did some experimenting with it and the results were always negative. You maybe do something like that if you need a band aid type of repair.

Cable Company sent me a box of speaker cables to try, a few years ago. When I use their loaner program, I usually pick some cables that I know I want to demo, and I let them pick a couple of pairs that they recommend. When the box came, I saw they sent me a pair of Synergistic Sig 10's. I don't follow Synergistic's products, so I had no idea what to expect. When I put them in my system, the CD wasn't even 30 seconds into the first track and I knew something was wrong. It was clearly audible that they put different cables for the highs and lows. It actually sounded so messed up, I called SR for a recommendation on what to do, and they told me that's how the cable was designed. Nothing was wrong with it.

So I say, if you already have some cables you want to experiment with, try it. It won't hurt anything. But I wouldn't waste any new money on it.

Not a good idea. Read the last paragraph on page 1,

Understanding BiWiring