Are you unhappy with letting the SF's roll off naturally and just using the crossover that is in the F110?
If you are looking for a cheaper option than the JL crossover, look for a used Velodyne SMS-1. They are discontinued but even new they were only $400 or so. It will do what you're trying to do and it has a great spectrum analyzer to help dial everything in. |
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It's probably too late, but the better idea would have been to get a stereo pair of E110's and use the crossovers built in. Nearly identical performance to the same sized Fathoms.
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You should be able to find used Bryston and maybe Krell as well. :)
Best,
E
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Thanks for the tip. I may look to see if there are any out there. Are there many differences in these? |
The excellent First Watt B4 retails for $1500, but Reno Hi-Fi sells it discounted. It provides a lot of flexibility: 1st/2nd/3rd/4th order filters in 25Hz increments from 25Hz to 3200Hz. All discrete components, no Opamps or IC’s. But if a 6dB/octave filter will suffice, the "cap-on-the-amps-input-jacks" method is the most transparent way to go. |
Great feedback bdp24. Sorry for my ignorance but and you explain what you mean buy, "cap-on-amps-input-jacks" method.
Thanks. |
"I know that JL has a crossover for 3k, but was looking for "better and possibly more economical" way to achieve this." I wouldn't use the sub. Your SF's completely outclass it. You should get better results running the SF's full range.
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+1 on the E110's. I have a pair and the built in crossover is excellent. These work seamlessly with my hybrid electrostats. |
hambon---When a capacitor is attached to the input jack of a power amp (typically soldered to the back side of the jack, on the inside of the amp), it creates a high-pass filter which rolls off the signal the amp sees at a rate of 6dB per octave, starting at a corner frequency determined by 1- the value of the cap, and 2- the power amps input impedance. The formula for determining the cap value needed for a particular desired x/o frequency and with a particular amp input impedance can be found via a Google search. The value of the cap, the amps input impedance, and the desired x/o frequency are inter-related. This method of high-pass filtering has a couple of sonic advantages over any and all active cross-overs, and one disadvantage. That disadvantage is that the slope of the filter is very shallow, only 6dB/octave. That is a 1st order filter, and active x/o’s commonly provide steeper slopes (2nd-3rd-4th order, 12dB-18dB-24dB/octave), removing more of the bass from the signal sent to the amp and then speakers. The advantages are: 1- There are no active electronics added to the system; 2- An additional interconnect is not required (an active x/o does); and 3- It’s cheap! Just the cost of the caps (one per channel), plus the cost to have them installed if one can’t solder. Purists having been filtering this way for a long time. |
Not sure either of these helps with your budget question, but I have used them both with the JLA F110 to great results, and I offer for your consideration. Pass Labs makes a great external crossover, the XVR1, which although a bit complicated to set up, once you get it right, its terrific. Look around for a used one (or try Reno). Also the McIntosh MEN 220 room correction unit is quite good, and does a lot more than just cross-over to your sub. Again, find one used and its a lot of value add for the $.
Finally (and separately) and with all due respect, as to the suggestion above from a member that you should drop the sub because your "SFs completely out class it;" well, that is complete nonsense. I'm not comparing SF with JLA in saying this, what I'm saying is that having a great sub (which you have) well integrated into your system will, in fact, enhance the overall performance and experience. Your SFs are very nice to be sure, but they will be even nicer with the sub, assuming it is properly worked into the mix. |
@whitecap , great suggestion on crossovers.
I may pick your brains in a week or so. I am integrating my JL f212v2 with Mod LS36.5. The Mod is on its way with a customized Balanced line level outputs to drive my sub. I am hoping that 212 internal crossover should be adequate to strike a good balance with my mains.
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as an owner (soon to be former) of F110s w/ magico S3s, i think you should try to use the 24db x-over slope on the subs, the microphone room node optimizer engine, and your speakers run full range. then the issue is simply where to set the x-over point on the subs (as at 24db slope / octave, they will drop off fast). this was GREATLY preferred in my rig vs a passive x-over before the amp to the mains. there is no perfect part. dont screw with the signal path if at all possible. and w/ the F110s, its easily possible |
I previously owned a Velodyne DD-18 and had an opportunity to compare a JL Audio F113 at home. Originally, I placed the DD-18 on a small moving dolly with a long interconnect and used the crawl test to initially locate the heavy sub. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3oLLMgS-MThen using Velodyne's multi band Manual Room Optimization with a laptop found its most desirable location for my room. I used this same general area to compare the F113. Using the ARO system and despite its smaller driver the F113 was a formidable subwoofer. Using the Velodyne Optimization I could visually and sonically compare the ARO equalization. Defeating the ARO and feeding the F113 the Velodyne Optimization Manual equalization I was able to improve both the main speaker integration and personalize the overall response of the F113. I've since replaced the DD-18 with two DD-12 Plus and I believe JL Audio has also greatly improved its ARO system with a version II. When using a single subwoofer I have found that finding its optimum (or at least close to it) location in a particular room can greatly reduce the amount of equalization needed for better system integration. The ARO system or trial and error of your F110s manual controls may be all you need. The JL can be crossed over from 30-130Hz using a 12or 24dB slope. |
"Finally (and separately) and with all due respect, as to the suggestion above from a member that you should drop the sub because your "SFs completely out class it;" well, that is complete nonsense. I’m not comparing SF with JLA in saying this, what I’m saying is that having a great sub (which you have) well integrated into your system will, in fact, enhance the overall performance and experience. Your SFs are very nice to be sure, but they will be even nicer with the sub, assuming it is properly worked into the mix. " You can call it nonsense but the reality is there’s no reason to expect the sub to integrate well. You're taking a 14k speaker that is made by a company that believes in giving they're products a "house sound", and matching it with a budget HT sub. And lets not forget the amp. Is the amp in the sub going to match the speed, definition and power of what the OP is using on the SF's? Taking both the differences in the amps and speakers overall quality and performance into consideration, please explain to me why you would expect a seamless crossover and equal sound quality from both units? Yes, the OP already has the sub, so try it. But the odds are, the match will most likely end up sounding like a car stereo, and not a high end system. Common sense, at least to me, would be to match the speakers with a sub of similar quality. |
But the odds are, the match will most likely end up sounding like a car stereo, and not a high end system. In rereading my above post I may have given the wrong impression of the F-113. I was able to integrate the JL very nicely into my system just using the ARO method. Its 13" driver giving up little, if at all, to the Velodyne's 18" unit. Coincidently, JL Audio is a car audio manufacture. I believe the F-series was their first entry into home audio. Its inclusion of its ARO system and the quality of its fit and finish it was reviewed very well in audio only systems not only for its basic subwoofer performance but for the ease of its automated equalization method. hambone, I meant to suggest weighing the purchase of a JL Audio version II ARO sub and slaving the input of your current 1-10". Also, I should confess to being a Velodyne fan boy because of the Digital Drive and Digital Drive Plus' multi band ability to compare visual equalization and multiple preset memory of Q, phase angle, and gain etc., with the sonic results they provide. |
I am currently using a DEQX Preamp which has crossover functions along with its many other features. But, it still costs more bucks than I think you want to spend. |
m-db I'm not faulting you, or any other poster here. Also, I'm not saying anything bad about JL Audio. It's just my opinion, but I just don't see how you could make a sub like that work given the other components in the OP's system. That said, the OP already has the sub, so he should still try it. Who knows how it will sound. I just wouldn't get my hopes up. If we don't give the OP this info now, he may be pulling his hair out trying to figure out why the sub isn't integrating properly. |
mgreen27 not at all.
For anybody new to adding a sub there is so much room for dissatisfaction especially when so many products lack the adjustability to integrate well. |
