Best vintage DD turntables from the 70's and 80's?
Howdy folks-
We’ll I’ve got the vinyl bug for sure. 6 months ago, I bought my first TT, a nice Technics 1200 GR along with some killer vintage MM carts like Audio-Technica, Stanton and a few Grace. I love my GR! I love that little silver bastard A LOT as a matter of fact. A couple weeks ago, my second table arrived, a minty fresh Luxman PD-444 from Japan. This is a Micro Seiki built TT and was the "tits" in the mid 70’s. I can mount 2 arms on the Luxman. I’ve got a nice Victor 7045 arm coming soon along with a Victor X-1IIe MM cart which work quite well together.
I’d like to add another Vintage TT from the 70’s or 80’s and probably phase out the GR. I like the look of the old Pioneer, Denon and Victor tables. I’d like to get a vintage table that can be serviced if needed, something I can add a sweet vintage arm too. 3 arms are better than two!
I’d like to hear suggestions and comments on some fantastic, cool as crap, vintage turntables that you think should sit next to the Luxman.
Just reconditioned a late 1970s Pioneer table with dual motors to separate the many auto functions from the drive to the platter. Massive and heavy. Put a brand new ShureV15 type III cartridge on and ran it thru 120 Watts of Harmon Karden into new Bose 901s. It definitely caught the 70s sound and was full and mellow. The direct drive snyced up very well for perfect timing and speed. Auto lift function can be set for size of disc you are playing from the full 10" to 45s and was smooth and quiet as it worked. Very nice if that is what you want. After serviceing and listening I bought a Rega P-6 with Orotophon 2M Bronze cart and gave the tt to a friend. 40 years of technology just blow that old stuff away.
The only problem is LewM doesn’t own a p3. He used to lust after one, but he is now very happy with what he has. However, if some day Lew’s audiophile angel were to descend from heaven and present Lew with a p3, Lew would be ecstatic. Unfortunately, Lew does not believe in angels.
Actually I do and can recommend it highly. It was part of a Japan only series of three models. The PL-30L II and PL-50L II were the smaller ones with 9" tonearms, the PL-70 II was bigger with a 12" version. One might say that these tables were ’trickled down’ from the big P3 and P10 Exclusive tables. The styling and in particular the tonearms are very similar.
I agree, the PL-70II or P-10, i wish i could find one. They are so nice compared to modern Pioneer’s crapy turntables, the best ever MM cartridge designed for this Pioneer tonearm is PC-1000 mkII (Beryllium cantilever). Here is PC-1000 mkII MM on Pioneer P-3 turntable with removed wooden plinth, look what’s inside. Lewm’s favorite P-3 with coreless motor is amazing, read more about it.
PL-70-II is much cheaper alternative, but i would give them my prize for design.
Enjoyed Denon DP2500 which, last I knew, is still spinning 40 years later...at incorrect speed...has a strobe on-board with no adjustment. A better strobe from "The Tweak Shop" back in the day, revealed it ran fast. A "post Allen Perkins (Spiral Groove) Star Sapphire SOTA w/Fidelity Research FX64 arm solved all that, including the "Electronic Flywheel" line conditioner and vacuum...and Marigo Tuning Dots to stabilize it all. Cheers, Pin
If I remember correctly, the first Denon direct drive turntable from the late ’70’s was a stunner in looks and briefly was on the Absolute Sound’s top turntable list. The later Denon's were almost all semi-automatic .... the armless ones are rare.
Actually I do and can recommend it highly. It was part of a Japan only series of three models. The PL-30L II and PL-50L II were the smaller ones with 9" tonearms, the PL-70 II was bigger with a 12" version. One might say that these tables were ’trickled down’ from the big P3 and P10 Exclusive tables. The styling and in particular the tonearms are very similar.
The PL-70L II replaced a Denon DP-75 (with Denon DK-330 plinth and Denon DA-309 tonearm). I guess as far as the DD motors are concerned they are about equal. Still the Pioneer performs on a considerably higher level than the Denon, especially in the lower registers. I’m pretty certain this must be attributed to the tonearm, which is probably the Pioneer’s biggest asset compared to similarly priced DD tables. Unfortunately it cannot be separated from the turntable itself because of the remote armlift arrangement (my only complaint), otherwise I probably would have installed this arm on my higher level turntables. I don’t think Pioneer ever released this tonearm as a separate item, at least I’ve never seen it.
Thank you for your answers. I copied them as a separate file for future reference.
Luckily, for now, everything works but I feel that an old turntable, or anything old for that matter, is like a car. It runs until it does not and you should not be caught by surprise. That story about stop/return ceasing function was about thirty years ago and it fixed itself and has never been a problem ever since. I have no idea what Kryptonite these turntables were made of, but if my lowly SL-Q2 still works no wonder higher grade models are exemplary.
Back in the late 70's, I was selling audio. We had some decent DD tables. Among my favorites were the Marantz 6300's and it's successor the 6350. Both were beautifully built and finished and featured an end of record auto lift/shut off. The usual S shaped tone arms were as low mass as the design allowed and had very low resonance. Also cool were the Sansui SR 929 and the Pioneer PL 670. The Pioneer seemed to have the best tonearm.
@glupson, the service manual shows an arm return mechanism like that of the “lesser” semi-auto Technics turntables of the late 70’s and ‘80’s. The mechanism is driven by a small gear on the platter spindle and engaged either mechanically by the arm pivot contacting a lever when the end of play is reached, or by a solenoid that is triggered by the stop button on the plinth. The SL-Q2’s automatic mechanism probably shares several parts in common with the lower end belt drive units, so parts and donor units should be plentiful on fleabay.
If neither works reliably, I would first examine the spindle gear and the much larger main gear for missing teeth. If only the stop button is intermittent, try lubricating the solenoid plunger. I believe you can download an electronic copy of the service manual from the vinyl engine site. If you are unable to locate it, I can scan it to PDF and email it to you.
yep, that the only automatic part that some of us may need when fall to sleep in the chair while listening an LP :) Remote control for the amp volume control is another nice option.
Interesting rwwear, I bought a Thorens Q-Up when they were introduced. I could never get mine adjusted properly for tension so it either failed to lift the arm or would roughly fling it upwards. I no longer remember which arm I was using at the time.
Overall, my first stereo system included a Dual 1009, though I didn't use the stacking feature, only the auto start and stop. My second table was an AR-XA and every one I've owned over the decades since had been manual. It's no big deal when you're used to it. ;^)
Cleeds. I still have my Safety Raiser from the 70's. It never worked. The Thorens
Q-up
model was much cheaper and works great. Mine was $8.00 when I bought mine.http://www.thequp.com/
I bought my Denon DP-60L in 1984, a direct drive, automatic turntable. It had a Grace F-9e and sounded fantactic. It still does. The only change is I have a Sound-Smith Ruby OCL replacement stylus in the Grace and higher quality ICs to the pre. It's not as good as my VPI Prime Signature with a Sound-Smith Helios, but quite listenable. Rollin
@chakster that AT Safety Raiser looks intriguing. It doesn’t say how it works, so I suppose you manually “set” or “load” the mechanism and when the tonearm bumps into the “antenna” it triggers the mechanism to release and lift the tonearm? That would be a must-have for me, if I ever purchase a manual turntable.
@glupson, the SL-Q2 has a different mechanism than the SL-1700mk2 to raise and return the tonearm at end of play. I have the factory service manuals for both, and I’ll look it up for you. Yours might just need some cleaning and new grease on those moving parts.
Unless your LP is in terrible condition, I don't see how letting the stylus ride in the run-out grooves for a half a minute or so, while you overcome your intertia and get up to change the LP, is going to hurt it. So, I agree with Chakster. I do like having a remote volume control, so I can turn down the gain whilst I prepare to rise from my listening seat for that chore. That way, the speakers are protected from any transients.
I wonder how it works. It does seem like something useful.
sleepwalker65,
You mentioned that semi-automatic mechanism uses belts. Was that what Technics used to do? You got me worried, I have SL-Q2, low-fi by standards of serious listeners and have never replaced anything. I was, obviously stupidly, imagining there were some cogwheels doing the work.
When it comes to reliability, some thirty+ years ago, the stop mechanism ceased to work and arm would not return. I had to start and stop it with on/off button. It lasted for 6 months, maybe even a little more, and then it started working again for no apparent reason. It worked this afternoon, too. The turntable is close to 40 years old so I figure if I do need to replace some belt now and then it goes for another 40, I am set for life. Literally.
Have you seen this AT Safety Raiser ? Brand new device from Audio-Technica for lazy guys: "Designed to mount on a manual turntable, the AT6006R Safety Raiser automatically lifts the tonearm at the end of a record, protecting the stylus from damage."
@chakster the definition of “the best” is quite subjective. In my own subjective viewpoint, I prefer semi-automatic turntables that return the tonearm to its rest at the end of play. The mechanism that furnished that function on my prized (and slightly customized) Technics SL-1700mk2 turntables uses an optical detector, and therefore that part is relatively immune to wear and tear. I do openly admit that the mechanism which it invokes is mechanical, and involves a rubber drive belt that is prone to requiring periodic replacement. That is a small concession as far as I’m concerned for the convenience of semi-automatic operation. Admittedly, my aural faculties have diminished somewhat, so my sound quality needs might not be as high as that of others, but I have never enjoyed such sonic bliss before with lesser equipment.
I hate automatic turntables, especially the vintage automatic turntables. If the owner of such turntables is not a DIYer then they must be serviced, refurbished, adjusted, calibrated etc. Many automatic turntables are broken, the electornics does not work well. How much the owners have to pay to restore them ?
The only automatic turntable which i’d like to have is this cute little 12inch size Technics SL-10 (and fully programmable SL-15 with 205 mk4 pmount cartridge), but ONLY if they are already refurbished by some specialista in Japan. Nice for a kitchen system.
Serious vintage turntables must be manual in my opinion. I just don’t trust this automatic sh*t
Automatic turntables are difinitely not the best turntables.
Raul, thanks for that quote from Vintage Knob. Perhaps I failed to read that whole sentence when I consulted VK but as I recall their blurb on the PD444 stated the model number of the M-S motor used by Luxman in that table. I didnt note that it was sourced from Victor/JVC, if that’s the case..
The best bang for the buck TT's ever made were the Sony PS-X5, 6 and 7 !.Still a very good table after 40 years if you can find one with working electrics or are handy with same .
Shane (Downunder), Good on you! Great array of turntables and I’m jealous of your P 3. I recently had a copper mat custom made for my L07D and the improvement in SQ was beyond my expectation.
@chakster Yes I have a Micro Seiki cu180 on mine and centering works properly. The Micro Seiki CU180 does wonders to the sound. I had custom wooden armboards made for the table. Had a Fidelity Research FR66s and a Dynavector 507/2 on it. Served me really well. Will be sad to see it go. Will be looking for a good home for it.
Nakamichi TX-1000 is limited edition, not so many units were made as far as i know. My audiophile fellow in Moscow has it, it’s extremely expensive turntable! My question: is it possible to use 1.8kg Micro Seiki mat on it or its self-centering system do the magic only with stock mat? @genesis168
Yes it’s the top of the line. Yes self cantering. I am the original owner. Long story...bought it new old stock. A TechDas replaced it and it really made me realize how good the Nak was. I replaced it under the impression that it would be a big upgrade and something that can take more than 2 arms. But in reality all I found was that the “big” upgrade wasn’t so big after all.
Genesis Nakamichi TX-1000 CT Self-Centering Turntable Interesting as it has that fancy record centering system. Many if not most records are off-centered and that is one of the main issues of record play really. Can I ask what replaced TX-1000 and why ?
Not many lucky enough to actually see a TX1000 in action. I had mine for approx 13years. It’s one of the best tables around. Stacks up to many Uber high end tables. Finally replaced it last year. Debating if I should sell it or keep it.
Chakster, congtats on your big LUXMAN decks, just beautiful :) Now I know why you are able to make quick evaluations on many cartridges, side by side actually. Very impressive method, like Dave´s. I´ve been wondering how misunderstood and underrated these big vintage decks have been over the years among "audiophiles". Not only because of their two tonearm use but their very special design. They are something else in their
unique inception and implementation. And they have a sound of their own really. However, nothing is perfect, not even in vintage quality Japanese audio. I soon discovered that those elastomer feet did not do justice for this superb deck, in my system.
I replaced the stock springy feet with cheap maglev feet. They do the trick for me. And Stlllpoints are just fine (like Dave´s). Also heavy brass feet will do. This tweak will raise PD444/441 to a higher performance level, today´s level.
Not sure there is any best Japanese DD out there but the two following are certainly in the top few.
But I do love my Pioneer Exclusive P3 table aka 1979 which has given me almost 10 years of fault free performance. Only available at the time in Japan.
More recently the Technics SL1000mk3 aka SP10mk3 with Thales tonearm is also excellent.
There are the two tables on the left of the rack in the link below
amg, You may be correct, that the DDX1500 is quartz-referenced. I was extrapolating from what I have read, probably on Vintage Knob, about the DDX1000 and DQX1000, namely that the "Q" indicates quartz-referencing. Also, I googled "DQX1500" before posting and it came up as a listing; what would be the diff between a DDX1500 and a DQX1500, and did they or do they really exist as separate entities? I confess that I only recently became aware of these 1500 series DD turntables from M-S. Always willing to learn. I do hold the opinion that the DDX1000 and DQX1000, while probably very good, are not competition for the top line turntables from others. However, my opinion is not worth the bytes taken up to write it, since I have heard neither. Raul has challenged not only Chakster, who states that M-S made the motor for the PD444, but also Vintage Knob, which is where Chakster gets his info. However VK is written by humans and is subject to error, and Chakster is human, too. (I'm sure of it.) So, Raul, can you say where you get your information regarding the M-S DD turntables? My question would be whether the M-S motor described by Vintage Knob and Chakster is coreless; it is said to be a "brushless DC motor", but that doesn't mean coreless. Honestly guys, the old original Technics SL1200 and all its revisions that came after, are just not in the league with either the new SL1200G, GAE, GR, etc, or any of the vintage top line DD turntables. No shame in owning and using them, however.
I’ll tell ya if you can find an original Mission 774sm and 775sm in good condition, grab it. It is one of the very best turntables I have ever heard at any price. I have never been able to snag one and I had been looking for a long time.
"Why not a 1200 mk2? If friends come by you can say that you DJ on the side:)"
Be the coolest kid on the block. Tell them you use it as it was initially meant to be, for listening to music alone, and have been doing it since before it became cool to be a DJ. Except that you may need to go for the original 1200 without all these Mk-somethings.
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