Matrix: your "theory" or "experience" should I say would then lead me to believe that even the best CDP may benefit from having its signal "transformed" via an active PREAMP to tighten up the bass and also increase gain before getting into the AMP. That makes sense to me but is somehow against some well-circulated opinions that a true "Class A" (as in Top notch) PRE is no PRE at all or Passive. Thanks |
Alway gonna get better and more full sound in almost 9 out of 10 case's with a preamp.. It also adds some of the extra gain and voltage UP you need to drive deeper bass and added weight. Most of the Hi-end CD players have always gotten a bad rap in bass slam running direct, I do not have first hand on this but have heard many models with and without preamp, always go preamp, my preference is with Active and mostly Tubes, but some excellnet solid states as well, Not sure about passive, but would guess you need subwoofers in a system unless you got some super frequency speak's I never heard of or heard. |
Thx Sogood51 on your view. I had try few passives including the Placette and never like them just like you said about matching. The Nigra passive is nice but only if you have high output CD player like the Wadia.
Too weak in most of the application.
It sounded slower and less dynamic than active preamps.
As far as Preamp to Amp matching, I never have any problem with good active preamps regardless of which amp I'm using.
Per Dave and my view too, a good active preamp doesn't degrade signal or very little.
IMHO, A perfect preamp should be less colored and yet it doesn't mean it is bright or harsh sounding. It should be transparent and very open sounding.
In most cases, tube preamps tend to sound more open and less compressed than the SS preamps. However, many users complains that some tube preamps has doesn't produce lower frequency as deep as the SS preamp.
The only time that active preamp would be an issue is when you need the phono stage in the active preamp. This part requires matching with the phono cartridge. |
Great question and I don't have the answer. I simply report my experiences as I am not a tech dude or electronics expert. Perhaps others can help. All I know is with all of the various pieces of gear and combinaions of gear my music was improved with a pre. I am sure different reasons for several of the gear match-ups. Perhaps not. Sorry as I do not know why. It just is. Ha! |
Bill: thanks for sharing your experiences. My question now is why? is it because an active preamp "massages" the signal that comes out of the CDP (for example, it cleans the mids, tightens the bass) therefore making it a "better" CDP (even with top notch CDP)? or, there is something that the PRE does to the operations of the AMP itself - say it allows the amp to operate within a more efficient or "comfortable" range? I know this may sound a silly question but it would seem to me that looking at the sequence of gear in the system, a PRE improves the input signal fed to the AMP rather than magically improving the AMP. However, I often read about the PRE-AMP combo as if both were co-dependent, almost independent of the source. |
I have tried the following passive devices and CD players with analog volume controls;
Muse Thalia CD/DVD with all recent upgrades
Resolution Audio Opus 21 CD
Audio Aero Capitole MKII Sig version
Audio Aero Prima MKII
Placette RVC
EVS Attenuators
Quad CDP 99
Cary - various
CJ CD player - forget the model#
Gamut with active and passive stages
Berning ZH270 with no pre - has volume
I so wanted to go preampless and save money. I love simplicity also. Some of the above, in fact most, sounded good even great, direct into my various tube and SS amps. In fact,I have gone preless for weeks/months at a time.
My experience in every instance, yes every one, is a good preamp improved the sound in various ways. Here are my specific examples.
1) Muse Thalia direct into Mcalister Audio tube amp and March A400s SS amp VS Bel Canto Pre6
The pre 6 gave much improved bass on both amps. Much more dynamic and firm. The highs were more detailed with improved imaging. A more balanced sound. Transparancy actually improved.
The Muse has an excellent analog volume as an FYI.
Now at first the Muse direct seemed preferabe, but after 10 days of going back and forth the above become obvious.
2) AA Capitole direct into a CJ MV60 tube amp and Mcintosh MC402 SS amp VS Aesthetix Calypso pre
Well, the direct route was very good on both counts. This is a great player - no doubt. However, when I introduced the Calypso I was astounded by the improvement. As an FYI this is a great combo! The mids and highs were more intimate and "in the room". Again, the bass firmed up and went deeper. Things simply sounded more right and alive - less smooooooothed out if you will.
3)RA Opus 21 direct into Blue Circle and JC1 monoblock SS amps and Bruce Moore Dual 70 tube amp VS CJ LS 16 pre
The CJ simply gave more meat and foundation to the music. Without it the music sounded thinner and more threadbare. Now the sound direct was very good. If I did not have the CJ on hand to compare, then I would have been very satified with the sound. Having the CJ spoiled the works!
I won't bore you with more comparisions, but will share this. The BV Audio P10 pre also improved the sound vs. the Placette RVC. Again, bigger stage, deeper bass and improved detail and LIFE to the music.I found the EVS attenuators very, very thin sounding on several amps compared to several preamps including the Tom Evans Vibe.
I have done other comparisons and never has preless been as good.The Berning ZH270 amp became fuller sounding with improved dynamics and body with a Joule LA100 MKIII preamp.
I sell gear for folks and have been blessed to have many of the finest pieces of gear in my house to "play" with. I only listen to CD's and have longed to dump a pre and save money. My experience has shown me it can't happen for me, at least with all of the combo's in my treated listening room.
A good pre just gives music more body, soul, weight and life. I am sure I will get to try other gear and look forward to be proven wrong and save money.I am open and willing :-)
Bill
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I think the accurate answer is yes and no. It depends on the system, components, and match-ups. I had a Wadia 16 based system directly driving a pair of Clayton monos and Quadrature DSP-5a's which was really nice. Currently, I have a pair of Soundlab M-2's and Merlin VSM-MM's and in both cases the soundstage just doesn't seem to be anywhere near as solid and fleshed out with a direct drive vs. having a preamp in the system. Hope this helps but I really think this is purely a system dependent issue. |
Not a matter of impedance matching. A matter of drive impedance. |
Bigkidz, could you elaborate on what was interesting about First Sound's volume pots? Just curious because they're on my shortlist to audition. Thanks, Ken |
Agree and disagree with some of you. When I was looking at preamps I found that many of the high end preamps had just OK volume pots. When I was looking for a replacement volume pot for my preamp, I researhed what the manufacturers were using versus what was available as a "better" volume pot. It was intersting in also speaking with First Sound and what volume pots are in their preamps. So as much as this thread is about to preamp or not to preamp, you should check what volume pot is in your preamp first IMO.
Happy Listening. |
S23chang
French bordeaux?...hardly "essential" to the act of drinking wine.
Volume control..."essential", ever try listening to music without it?.
Let me be more clear for you:
If one only needs to control volume, a well built passive volume control (in my case...Bent Audio passive)... you will in my experience have a hard time finding an active preamp that does not degrade sound quality to a greater degree than the passive unit at under $3,000 (new). I'll mention that I paid $1,100 (new) for my Bent Audio passive.
Very good active preamps do not degrade sound quality to any large degree...no advantage to a passive here IMO. I'll use Placette Audio as an example here because they make both types of components and are well known to audiophiles.
I have listened to the Placette passive but not the active. The Placette passive almost made it into my system and was better sounding in some ways than the Bent Audio unit I went with...yes, even passives sound different.
A search will confirm that the Placette active preamp tops the passive unit in sound quality...no supprise and answers the question...NO, it's not always true that the best preamp is no preamp, although...it can be "sometimes" true up to a point.
In case you did not know, passives do not mate with all components so will not work well in all systems...the main reason I sold... after changing speakers/amp/room as mentioned above.
Dave
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Actually SoGood also answers the question in favor of preamps.
You have to spend what he calls "big bucks" to improve over a well designed passive volume control.
Note first the volume control has to be well made/designded. Note also that if you have the bucks to spend a preamp is better even in his opinion.
I personally also want/need a preamp. I just don't listen only to CD's. Also a lot of CD's are poorly engineered. The good preamp will make those CDs sound better than the raw data. |
Sogood51, your statement doesn't say very much.
"Passive volume controls are better than all but the best active preamps. Passive volume controls do not work well in all systems"
It is like saying French bordeaux is the best red wine out there but it is not for everyone.
How is that better than all and yet it is not competetant in some system?
Would it make sense to say that best active is better than all passive because it is suitable for all systems? |
I have found that in real life passive pre's can sound very thin and bad. I'm sure it's system dependent, but if the impedances don't match well, it will sound bad. |
The appropriate preamp is system-dependent. Preamps can be viewed as a combination of a passive attenuator and a gain stage. The issues that need to be addressed are: Are output and input impedances compatible; Is there enough gain or excessive gain in the overall system; Is the built-in "preamp" output of the CDP of good quality or is it advantageous to take a direct out (bypassing the built-in if possible) and use a better quality preamp stage? |
Sogood51 got it right. No, its not always true. Sometimes its true. |
Not at all always true. It really depends on the driver stage of the source, which is often a cheap OP amp. Furthermore, volume controls on CDP are often in the digital spectrum, which means that when you lower the volume from full, you are affecting (lowering) the sampling rate of the digital signal.
There are sources out there that have real analog volume control and exellent driver stages... where a good pre-amp might just get in the way of the music, but I think it is more the exception than the rule. |
Depends on your system...and wallet. A well designed passive volume control does very little to degrade the signal...I,ve owned the Bent Audio passive around two years ago. Great product that simply smoked all before it in my system!
That said, a system and room change caused me to need gain to reach the spl's I had in the old system/room...had to go back to an active preamp.
I found that active preamps are far and few between in matching the level of sound quality I had with the Bent Audio passive unless you spend big bucks...something I did not want to do.
After around a year, I found on the used market a tubed preamp that does replace the Bent's qualities in every way.
Had I been willing to spend $3,000 and up for a preamp I'm sure it would have been a more easy a task.
My opinion on your question: "Is this a solid and robust statement?"
Passive volume controls are better than all but the best active preamps. Passive volume controls do not work well in all systems. The best active preamps "sound passive" while only adding gain...and of course more options.
Dave |
in my opinion, regardless whether the linestage and volume control are in the CD player or preamp, the quality of these parts are key. if a dedicated preamp has a better linestage and volume control than those in the CD player, the system will most likely sound better with it. |
My preamp is the heart of my system. I cannot imagine not having it. It creates the overall sound signature for my system that I like. I would have a sonic mess without that control over the sound.
Remember that if a CD player has a volume control, it basically has a very simple preamp built-in.
Try plugging a turntable, tuner, and other devices directly into the amplifier and let us know how it goes... The turntable even needs a separate preamp before regular the preamp. |
