Best multi-purpose subwoofer

I have a pair of REL t7i and it’s awesome. They have high input and LFE. They just become an extension of your two channel system, and they rock in HT

     I don't really understand what is meant by pressurizing the room.  Can anyone please explain this physical process and its benefits?
     I do, however, understand many of the terms and concepts involved related to achieving very good bass response in a given room. 
     A 20Hz deep bass tone sound wave is 56.5 ft. long. Since few people listen to music in a room that has a dimension that is that large, it means the 56.5 ft. sound wave of 20 Hz is emitted into the room and, once it hits a room boundary (floor, wall, ceiling) or other solid object in the room, it will reflect or bounce off these surfaces (at predictable angles) and it then continues on its new trajectory until it encounters another solid surface and reflects again. This process continues until the long sound wave runs out of energy.
     How one perceives this long 20Hz sound wave depends on exactly where your head/ears are positioned within the room and whether the direct sound wave from the sub arrives at your ears first or if a reflection of the direct sound wave arrives first.  To further complicate matters, the most likely scenario is that your ears will be detecting the direct sound waves and reflected (indirect) sound waves within milliseconds of each other which alters the bass frequency and detail perceived. 
     Also, as longer bass sound waves continue to bounce off of room boundaries they inevitably collide with one another.  These collisions cause what are called 'room modes', which result in exaggerated, attenuated or even negated perceived bass at specific locations in the room.   The more bass modes in a room, the poorer the perceived bass and vice versa.
    Through their research and experiments the acoustical engineers mentioned on one of my previous posts on this thread, doctors Geddes and O'Toole, discovered that bass room modes decrease in direct proportion to the number of subs in a given room.  The more subs in a given room, the fewer bass modes present.   
     Of course, they realized that there's a practical limit to the number of subs that individuals' significant others will find acceptable in a home environment.  
     Interestingly, however, they found that when 4 subs are deployed in a given room and located following a specific sequential procedure (which I can detail in another post), that the vast majority of the bass room modes are eliminated or considerably lessened in their affect.  This is the basis for the AK Swarm bass system and the reason it consists of 4 subs.     
     Without any doubt, the Swarm bass system by a wide margin provides the best bass response in my room/system that I've ever used, much better than any of the numerous single and dual sub configurations I've ever used.       
    The improvements I notice are an effortless quality to the bass in which it will go as deep, dynamic and powerful as the source content calls for while also being very articulate and detailed in the bass that allows for clear recognition of the instruments being played and small variations of pitch and tempo.  I believe both these qualities are unique to, and possible with, the Swarm due to its use of relatively smaller 10" sub woofer drivers and the fact there are 4 and not just 1 or 2 in the room.     
     I doubt it's a coincidence that none of my previous 1 and 2 sub bass configurations could match this high level of bass performance of the Swarm.
Tim  
      

I like REL the best.   After cycling through several different subs over the years, REL will be the last sub I ever buy.  I currently use the REL T/7i, but they have multiple lines of subs, and just about any size one might need.   Good luck.  

GoldenEar  SuperSub series

Go with the HSU subwoofer VTF-3 MK5 HP Subwoofer

ghulamr, 
I have listened to REL and I have listened to SVS. All the REL subs seem very refined and when set up correctly, blend in seamlessly. The only drawback I have found is price. They are a bit expensive, but I really like the whole line. 🙂
SVS is another animal. For home theater they are fantastic!  The pricing is fair for what you get. But for critical two channel listening I would not look at SVS. Oh and both have great customer service.

Sorry I can’t help you with any other brands.

JD

Thanks eric_squires for the link. It seems to have a lot of answers to a lot of my questions.

Here is a great resource that does not get referenced enough. 

https://data-bass.com/home

JD

Go big or don’t go. :)

http://www.damncoolpictures.com/2009/12/worlds-biggest-subwoofer.html

So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the SVS line of subs will exceed your expectations.

VANDERSTEEN

The VANDYS come in two configurations in their Model 2W Series Subwoofers...2WQ AND V2W .....both are exceptional

https://www.vandersteen.com/products/model-2w-series-subwoofers

“.... Two versions of the 2W subwoofer are available, each engineered and optimized for specific situations. The 2Wq receives its input from the power amplifier and is designed to maintain maximum sonic continuity between the subwoofers and main speakers in all music and home theater systems where a crossover can be inserted between the preamplifier/processor and the main power amplifier.

The V2W accepts line-level inputs exclusively and is designed for home theater systems with integrated processor/amplifier units where the bass is handled by a line-level subwoofer channel...”

Repost .....+1 on integrating a subwoofer with your 2-channel system speakers , and why it can be either done well or done poorly.

So, (reposted again as an FYI) it still provides a good summation of the conflicting strengths and warts in setting one up properly and more importantly , "why" you would undertake to do so.

http://ultrafi.com/why-everybody-needs-a-good-subwoofer/
August 3, 2008 by ultrafi in Tips, Tricks & Info | Comments Off on Why Everybody Needs a Good Subwoofer…

" …And Why a Really Good Subwoofer is so Hard to Find

Audiophiles and music lovers are missing out on one of the most dramatic improvements they can make to their audio system: Powered Subwoofers. Most audiophiles won’t even use the word “subwoofer” in public, let alone plug one in to their precious systems. There is a kind of snobbery that exists in the world of high-end audio aimed primarily at receivers, car audio, home theater and especially subwoofers. As a matter of fact, subwoofers are responsible for many people disliking both car audio and home theater, since it is the subwoofer in both of those situations that tends to call attention to the system and cause many of the problems.

The truth of the matter is that subwoofers have fully earned their bad reputation. They usually suck. Most of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck. We have all had our fair share of bad subwoofer experiences, whether it’s from a nearby car thumping so loud that it appears to be bouncing up off the road, or a home theater with such overblown bass that it causes you to feel nauseous half-way through the movie. You would think that high-end audio manufacturers would be above all of that, but you would be wrong. In many cases, their subwoofers are almost as bad as the mass-market models because they too, are trying to capitalize on the home theater trend that is sweeping the land.

You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money. Finally, in trying to move all of this air, the driver (or drivers) which operate in an enclosure, create tremendous pressure inside of the box itself. The cabinet walls must be able to handle this pressure without flexing or resonating. Building such a box involves heavy damping and bracing which gets very expensive. When you consider these requirements, you quickly realize that it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900. Manufacturers do this because their marketing research has shown them that that is what people want to spend on a sub, never mind the fact that what people want to spend and what it takes to get the job done right may be two different things. The result is that even most high-end manufacturers are putting out poorly constructed subwoofers that just don’t sound very good.

I don’t want to give you the impression that anyone who really wants to can build a good subwoofer so long as they are willing to throw enough money at the problem, because that really isn’t true either. There are some pretty expensive and well-constructed subwoofers out there that you would never want to plug into your music system because they would most certainly make the sound worse. Why? Because of their crossovers. A crossover is inserted into your signal path in order to remove the lowest frequencies (the deep bass) from your main speakers so that they no longer have to do all of the dirty work. The deep bass will instead be dealt with by the subwoofer. The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwooferto your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up. That, my friends, is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass. They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls. And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier. The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits. And the crossover that comes with almost every subwoofer on the market will cause more damage to your signal than can be overcome by these benefits. That is the main reason that audiophiles refuse to consider adding subwoofers, even very expensive ones with well built cabinets.

Enter the Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subwoofer.

This is the only subwoofer that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal. So how does Vandersteen do it? Simply. In fact his crossover scheme is so ingeniously simple that it’s a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way. I’ll spare you an in-depth description and just say that the only thing you end up inserting into your system is a couple of high quality capacitors. That’s it, nothing more! No additional wires or gadgets enter your signal path. Hell, you don’t even have to disconnect the wire between your amp and speakers to add this subwoofer. The model 2Wq sub uses the same basic crossover scheme as the $15,000 flagship Model 5As. As a matter of fact, you can even run the specially designed Model 5A crossovers (M5-HP) with the 2Wq if you want the most transparent sound imaginable.

So what about the other reason to add a subwoofer to your system: for more powerful and extended bass? I don’t care how big your main speakers are, they’re no match for a good subwoofer in the bass. A really good subwoofer can run rings around the best floorstanding speakers when it comes to bass extension, power and control because it is designed to be good at that and nothing but that, whereas main speakers have to be good at higher frequencies as well. Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass. Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information. Remember, if you can’t afford to buy two subwoofers at once, you can always add the second one later. Adding a pair of 300 watt powered subwoofers is exactly like adding a pair of 300 watt monoblock amplifiers to your system and upgrading to a pair of better main speakers at the same time. The beauty is that you don’t have to replace your main power amp or speakers to do it.

But there is a problem here as well. Everything comes at a price, and the price you pay with most subwoofers is that when you add them and their built-in amplifiers to your system, they don’t tend to blend or integrate well with the sound of your power amp and speakers. This is especially true if you own a tube amp, because the character of your amp is nothing like the character of the big solid-state amp that is built into most subwoofers. The result is that your system sounds split in half. You can hear where one part of the system leaves off (namely your amp and speakers) and where the other part takes over (the sub and its amp). This is a HUGE problem for audiophiles who aren’t willing to destroy their system’s coherence for additional power and bass extension. Fortunately, Vandersteenhas the perfect solution for this problem that is, again, so simple, I wonder why nobody else thought of it first. His solution is to build a very powerful 300 watt amplifier that strictly provides the huge current needed to drive the subwoofer. You can think of this amplifier as only half of an amplifier; or just the power portion of an amplifier. The release of this power is controlled by the signal that is provided by your power amp. Vandersteen’s amplifier needs a voltage to modulate its current output, and what better place to get that voltage than from your main power amp? This way, your power amplifier is directly responsible for the sonic character of the deep bass coming from the subwoofer because it provides the necessary voltage signal. This voltage signal contains the unique and characteristic sound of your main power amplifier and insures that that character is maintained in the sound of the subwoofer itself. The beauty of it is that your amplifier is only providing a voltage reference and no actual current, so it is not taxed with the burden of “driving” the subwoofer in any way. As a matter of fact, your amplifier doesn’t even know that the sub is connected to it. The 2Wq’s potential is almost unlimited given that it will ratchet up its performance as you improve your power amp. Remember that you always want your subwoofer to sound just like your power amp. No better, no worse. NO DIFFERENT!

After having spent time with the amazing Vandersteen Model 5A loudspeakers with their 400-watt powered, metal cone subwoofers, we were reminded of the sound we had with the awesome Audio Research Reference 600 mono power amps. With the Ref 600s there was a sense of effortlessness, openness and unrestricted dynamic freedom that we have only otherwise heard with live unamplified music. Listening to those monstrously powerful amps made us realize that all other systems sound compressed by comparison. Only when we heard the new Vandersteen Model 5As with their hugely powerful built-in subwoofers, did we again have a strikingly similar sonic experience. The reason is that the Model 5As provide a total of 800 high-quality watts, to which you have to remember to add the power of the amp we were using, the ARC VT-100, at 200 watts. This means we were listening to about 1000 total watts of amplifier power – not far from the 1200 total watts provided by the Ref 600s. With the Vandersteen subwoofer crossover and amplifier, you are able to get those hundreds of subwoofer watts to blend seamlessly and even take on the character of the ARC VT-100. It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs. So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close. You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers. Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen. It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks. And the Vandersteen 2Wq is the one. And just in case you think I am a biased source, our correspondent Blaine Peck (who, for all you know is also a biased source) recently wrote the following, with no discussion between us about the topic prior to his sending us his comments. Whether reproducing the plucked string of an acoustic bass or the sound of an analog synthesizer, the Vandersteen2Wq subwoofer is a seamless extension of any system. Nothing else need be added! With its internal 300-watt power amplifier, it is the perfect compliment to any sound system. Designed to take on the characteristics of your main stereo amplifier, the amp in the 2Wq will not sound foreign in your system. Also, through an extension of the Vandersteen design philosophy, a unique gradually sloping crossover system is implemented so you simply do not know where your main speakers stop and the 2Wq begins.

Now that your main speaker/amplifier combination need not concern themselves with those power demanding low frequencies, they are freed up to work in a more comfortable range. Yes, now what is coming from your main speakers will sound better than ever.

The 2Wq is not just another subwoofer. It consists of three 8″ floor-facing drivers, each with a massive motor. So why not a more typical single 12″ or 15″ design? Well frankly, the mass of a larger driver will not allow it to respond as quickly as the Vandersteen 8″ drivers to today’s demanding recordings. The 2Wq’s 8″ drivers are designed to handle the content but be “fleet of foot” at the same time. Concerned about where to put them? You need not worry. With the control of both its respective level and the “q” (how loose or tight the low end is) you have the flexibility to place them in a location that fits your living environment and not sacrifice performance. The simple beauty of this product will soon become an addition to your room.

So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the Vandersteen 2Wq will exceed your expectations...."

noble100,

Thanks Tim for your perfect post and this excellent link http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

Uncommon around here, I actually clicked the link and read the whole article. Being cursed with excellent long term audio memory every word of that review rings true. I can't enter a large space like a concert hall without immediately being aware of the size of the space by the way it sounds. Even without any sound. The space itself generates its own acoustic signature. Something completely lacking and lost in every single system I have ever heard, regardless of its ability to play impressively low bass. 

Also uncommon around here, I just don't like to go banging my head against the wall, or throwing money down a pit. Which, just how long does it take to try every possible sub location and listen and understand what you said, the single sub solution simply does not exist? Possibly an infinite amount, to judge by the responses to your post. Or an afternoon, if like me you actually do the work and listen (and measure). 

Between reading your post and reading the absolute sound review I actually followed the link erik provided and spent a fair amount of time reviewing various sub designs. Which there definitely are some great ones for getting awesome bass outdoors or in very large rooms. Not in a home. In a home they are all just more head banging and money pitting.

Why don't more people see this?

Oh well. I've got enough experience to know what to discount and disregard and what might actually work. Thanks to you I now for the first time in years have something that might actually work. 

So you helped me, at least.

Thanks!

@noble100 


I think we meant the Swarm.

batman1971,

     The REL Storm III sub woofer consists of a single 10 inch (250mm) long throw bass driver,not 4 drivers, that faces downward in a large cabinet ( 16.5"w x 24.5"h x 13"d; 60 pound).   It is powered by an internal 150 watt amp, not a 1,000 watt amp.  
     Dsp and room correction can be used with the Swarm bass system but is not required or necessary.
 
 Tim

I have a Hsu 15" subwoofer in a rather large cabinet.
Well integrated with the room and other speakers, it is better than every single sub out there that is not well integrated.

My point is, good integration is worth almost everything, and this is something few ever get to hear. I'd shop not just for a sub, but for help setting it up, otherwise i"d shop for the one with the best auto room correction if I didn't already have it, and talk to GIK acoustics for help.

Best,
E

Rythmik, HSU, SVS, JTR, PowerSoundAudio (co-founder of SVS). With my preference being the first two.

I don’t think anybody makes better subs than these brands in regards to bang for buck (the >$10,000 JL Audio Gotham is hardly worth it other the $2300 Rythmik G25HP).

Well, also should mention BIC and Dayton for entry level budgets.

However, not all models from the brands mentioned take high level inputs.  
  
REL is garbage for home theater, even their >$7000 flagship is only -6dB @15Hz in-room. That’s is pitiful, even the cheapest sealed Rythmik is -6dB @12Hz anechoic.

Never really heard of the Swarm. The website seems weak without much info and it’s not been mentioned or written up elsewhere besides AS. Also the set up for 4 not being wireless means running wires all across which is definitely a no. 
I’ve narrowed down my choices to REL, Rythmik, SVS for the smaller dimensions. What is hate the most and it’s true the larger the woofer and better the room is pressureized. I am locally getting a 15 inch earthquake supernova - a very tempting offer. 

The storm is just 4 10 inch passive subs running off one 1000 watt amp.  
 Its pretty commonly known that 4 subs is an ideal setup for home theater,   I would get 4 subs and dsp and could be under the price of storm all day long.   And have dsp....

ghulamr,

     Are you ruling out a Swarm type bass system?

     If it's too expensive for you, I understand.  Prior to the Swarm, I tried multiple brands and models of single and dual sub configurations and positions in my room ( Velodyne, REL, JL, Hsu, Klipsch, Polk, B&W, Theile and a few others) and none performed as well as the Swarm.
     My main speakers and center ch are Magnepans, which are notoriously difficult to integrate subs with.   The Swarm system was the only system I tried that blended seamlessly with the Magnepans for music and still delivered the bass impact I wanted for ht.  It truly is a state of the art bass system. 
     I'm unaware of any single or dual sub setup using conventional subs, at any size or price, that can match the performance of the 4 moderately sized Swarm subs properly positioned.   I do believe, though, that utilizing 4 of almost any top line conventional subs properly positioned in a distributed bass array system would likely outperform the Swarm subs.  I've never personally tried this but I know it would cost about 4x or more than the $3K price of the Swarm and probably only deliver marginal bass response improvements.
     The 4 sub distributed bass array system is the result of years of research on in-room bass response conducted mainly by 2 PHDs in acoustical engineering, Dr. Earl Geddes and Dr. Floyd OToole.  Google their names if you'd like to learn more about their experiments, conclusions and White Papers.
     My intention is to share my many years of experience and knowledge trying to achieve the same bass response it seems you're now searching for.  I have no financial or other interests with Audio Kinesis/Swarm other than purchasing their bass system and knowing how well it works in my system.
      My opinion is that the single 15 x18 x20 sub that you are looking and hoping for does not exist.  Sorry, but it's as simple as that.  
     The $3K Swarm system is the least expensive solution I'm aware of that will provide you with the bass performance you described.

Tim

How are the REL subs? Earthquake Supernova?

Here is a great resource that does not get referenced enough.

https://data-bass.com/home

ghulamr,

      You don't mention your budget but there's a solution that'll give you state of the art bass for both 2-ch and ht.  It's called the Audio Kinesis Swarm distributed bass array system.  Here's a review of it from The Absolute Sound magazine:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

     It's not cheap at $3,000 for the 4 (12" x 23" x 12") subs and the 1,000 watt class AB amp that powers the 4 ohm subs.  But I know it'll give you sota bass for music and ht because I've been using this bass system in my 23 x16 foot room for about 2 years now and it provides the best bass I've ever heard in my system. 
     I believe it would work very well, even in a room as large as yours, since it was designed for any size rooms from residential sized rooms to commercial club sized rooms.  
     Other big benefits of this system are that it provides great bass response throughout the entire room, not just at a predetermined sweet spot, and it requires no mics or room correction software or hardware, just some included equalization if you have some bass 'slap echo' present caused by bass sound waves bouncing between the floor and ceiling.  
     I run my subs configured as ported but the system does come supplied with port plugs if you prefer to configure the subs as sealed.  I compared ported vs sealed in my room and thought the ported configuration sounded better for both music and ht.   
     If $3K exceeds your budget, it's possible to create your own custom distributed bass array system using any 4 subs of your choice.  The only requirements are that you need to use at least 4 subs, although 3 may be sufficient in some rooms, and follow the specific sequential sub positioning procedure provided (which I can detail for you if you're interested.).  As the TAS review mentions, however, why bother when the Swarm system works so well and is so reasonably priced.  But it is true that the better the sub quality, the better the sound quality.  

Tim      

I generally prefer sealed subs for music, SVS or Rythmik. One thing nice about SVS subs is you don’t have to worry about ground loop or ac mains hum (if you have those problems), their low pass filter will actually remove that noise.

I really like Hsu products.

But in general, room acoustics and room correction matters a great deal.

Best,
E