Thx for the thread, pals. I'm trying to choose a subwoofer for $500 max from this list. What do you think about it? Thx in advance
Frank
Frank
Best multi-purpose subwoofer
Best multi-purpose subwoofer - meaning it fulfills my pursuit for audiophile 2 channel listening and my home theater needs. I have a large TV room 22x22x8 (LxDxH) with floor standing Von Schweikerts VR4 speakers. Room is used both for dedicated 2 channel listening as well as home theater. Unfortunately the design of the room is not the best as it has glass on one side (leading to the backyard) and laundry room behind (meaning its also the family room). Currently I have a 8 inch NHT SW1 old subwoofer which needs an upgrade. The maximum dimensions I can afford on a subwoofer is 15x18x20 (LxDxH).
As mentioned I want to be able to connect a High Level Input (for 2 channel) and .LFE for HT - so the subwoofer will need to have both. Grace for dedicated listening as well as power for HT. The only time I would consider a larger subwoofer is if it has wireless capabilities so I can place it anywhere in the room.
Any suggestions on which subwoofer may work best for me?
As mentioned I want to be able to connect a High Level Input (for 2 channel) and .LFE for HT - so the subwoofer will need to have both. Grace for dedicated listening as well as power for HT. The only time I would consider a larger subwoofer is if it has wireless capabilities so I can place it anywhere in the room.
Any suggestions on which subwoofer may work best for me?
74 responses Add your response
I am really enjoying my f112 sub. Dialed in for both 2 channel and HT the unit sounds amazing. Really solid state of the art subwoofer. Question is - does using good quality power cable, RCA cable and XLR cable connecting to the subwoofer make a difference? I really don't want to break my bank and tick off my wife - so looking for budget yet good quality cables - maybe used? Currently using whatever I had lying around my house, cheap Monoprice stuff. |
If you care to learn a bit Dr Geddes PDF paper on multiple subwoofers https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxgUOGOB5HbfR0JTRF9XZjkyUms/view |
phusis: "I find the bass-being-omnidirectional claim too categorial in not factoring in the importance of ambient information aided via a stereo signal, below 80Hz as well." Hello phusis, I partially agree with your statement but, based on my experience, I think you have the cause and effect reversed. I know this is a subtle difference but I believe it’s important so I’ll do my best to explain. First, I believe bass below about 80Hz is omnidirectional (that is, humans cannot perceive exactly where the bass sound is coming from.) Whether you configure 2 subs in a stereo or mono configuration, there is no ambient information existing on bass from about 80Hz and lower. However, musical signals at or above about 80Hz are directional (that is, humans can perceive exactly where these sounds are coming from.) I think the critical factor in determining exactly where bass sounds are coming from are the harmonics of the bass notes. For example, a fundamental bass note at 40Hz will produce harmonics at 80, 120, 160, 200, etc. Hz. Once these harmonics exceed about 80Hz, humans can perceive exactly where the sound is coming from. At this point, I think our brains take over and associate the multiple harmonics with the 40Hz fundamental note and the location it’s coming from. So, I believe there is important bass ambient information aided via a stereo signal but none below 80Hz. Fundamental bass notes below about 80Hz are omnidirectional but the bass note’s fundamentals above about 80Hz are directional and are clues to where the fundamental bass note is coming from. I believe the above based on my configuration and setup of my own system. I think the bass is the hardest to get right in any room/system so I do that first. I use 4 subs (each is 28"hx12"dx14"w and weighs 40 lbs) all run in mono and powered by a separate 1K watt class AB amp with the cutoff frequency set at 50Hz. My room is 23’x16’x8’. My hdtv, system rack and components are located and centered along the front 16’ wall. My listening chair is located and centered along the opposite rear 16’ wall. I optimize the bass at my listening seat by playing music containing good and repetitive bass, placing sub#1 at my seat and walking around the perimeter of my room in a counter-clockwise direction beginning at the front right corner of my room. I walk slowly along the front 16’ wall until I find the exact spot that the bass sounds best to me. Once determined, I relocate sub#1 to that exact position. I then place sub#2 at my seat and continue walking slowly from sub#1 until the bass sounds best to me. Once determined, I relocate sub#2 to that exact position. This process is sequentially followed until all 4 subs are optimally positioned. Last, I sit in my listening seat, replay the music with good bass and verify that the bass sounds very good. It’s important to mention that while the bass sounds exceptionally good at this point, I could not determine where the bass was coming from even though there was a sub on each 23’ wall with my listening seat in the middle of the rear 16’ wall between them and 2 subs located along the front 16’ wall. Next, I optimally position my main L+R Magnepan 2.7QR panels along the front 16’ wall, about 8’ apart and each about 4’ away from this wall into the room, in relation to my listening seat and playing full range but rated bass down to only 37Hz. Replaying the same music now heard in full range, everything becomes coherent and well integrated. There is a wide and dep soundstage illusion. My main point being, with the benefit of now hearing the bass harmonics above about 80Hz, I could now determine where the instruments producing the deep bass notes below about 80Hz were coming from within this soundstage illusion. I believe hearing the deep bass harmonics above 80 Hz enables this no matter how many subs are used in a system. Sorry this was so long but I find this a difficult concept to explain without a lot of detail. I hope I was successful. Tim |
@ghulamr -- I believe you made a sensible choice with the JL Audio F112. Never heard/felt it, but from what I’ve read it’s a very powerful and accurate sub that extends below 20Hz, so something along the lines of REL-territory musicality with the added bonus of brute force and infrasonic capabilities, the latter of which adds another dimension/experience layer to Blu-ray/UHD films. I used a single SVS SB16-Ultra for a year and a half, a sub I believe compares in performance to the F112 rather closely, and placed between my main speakers it integrated very well for both music and Home Theater duties. I had it low-passed at 61-62Hz/24dB with the mains running full range. As of late though I’ve converted to a pair of (tapped horn) subs, and experimenting with dual placement has come up with some interesting findings. One option (in variations) has been to have one sub between the main speakers and the other behind the listening position against the rear wall (optionally in a corner), configured in mono with a cross-over to the mains somewhere between 80-100Hz - a rather successful setting with good pressurization and fairly flat/smooth response. Placing them instead along the side walls fed with a stereo signal (digital sources maintain stereo all the way down in the lowest bass, insofar they’re mixed in stereo, whereas LP’s are monaural below 100Hz regardless) in a symmetrical configuration to the mains has the bass from the subs "latch on" to the mains in a distinctly more natural and very seamless fashion compared to the front/rear option and single front/center placed SVS, not least making for an even more coherent presentation. I think the primary factor to be aware of here is placing dual subs symmetrically in relation to the main speakers (making phase/delay adjustment much easier, along with gain), and even having a true stereo signal for better ambient reproduction. The latter aspect here may be debated due to bass being less directional below some 80Hz, and while my subs are crossed between 80-100Hz/48dB (not yet settled) to be more directionally "visible," I find the bass-being-omnidirectional claim too categorial in not factoring in the importance of ambient information aided via a stereo signal, below 80Hz as well. So, do consider a second F112 in your setup, for several reasons; you’ll have ~6dB more headroom as well and double the air radiation area. In the meantime enjoy your new acquisition and integrating it with your mains and acoustics. |
guhlamr and gillatgh, While your room (22x22x8) is larger than gillatgh’s room (15x22x8) and you’re both using only a single high quality sub, you’ll both find that you can optimize bass response at a single position (your chosen listening position) in your rooms provided the sub is properly positioned within the room in relation to your listening position. I detailed the procedure for properly locating a single sub in my last post. The compromise of using only 1 sub in a room is that bass response will be poor at numerous other locations in the room. This will be obvious by just walking around the room after optimizing the bass at your listening seat. You’ll notice that at various spots in the room the bass will sound exaggerated, attenuated and even nonexistent. These spots of poor bass are the result of ’Bass Modes’ existing at these spots in the room. Bass modes occur because bass sound waves launched from a sub are very long (a 30Hz sound wave is 37.66 ft long, a 20Hz wave is 56.5 ft long) and these long waves continue to reflect or bounce off room boundaries (walls, ceiling and floor) until they run out of energy. The points where these reflected bass sound waves meet or collide are called bass modes. When 2 sound waves reinforce each other, the bass will be perceived as exaggerated. When 2 sound waves meet at various angles, the bass is perceived as attenuated and when 2 sound waves meet or collide head on, the bass is perceived as totally absent since the 2 waves cancelled each other out resulting in what is termed a ’Standing Wave’. As I’ve stated before, the only currently known method of attaining very good bass response throughout an entire room is to deploy what is called a ’Distributed Bass Array System’. The DBA system is a scientifically proven method (developed by 2 doctors of acoustical engineering, Earl Geddes and Floyd O’Toole) that consists of 4 subs strategically positioned in a room that is exceptionally effective in significantly reducing the number of bass modes in any given room. An additional benefit of the JL f112 sub is that it’s fairly simple to add additional JL subs if you ever wanted to. The existing sub is termed the ’Master’ and an additional JL sub is called a ’Slave’. Only a single cable is required for connecting the slave to the master. Multiple slave subs can be connected connecting them with a single cable in a daisy chain method and the master recognizes all attached subs as a single bass system. So, you both currently have very good bass response at your listening position and have the option to incrementally improve that bass response by adding properly positioned subs. If you decide to deploy a DBA, you’ll attain state of the art bass response throughout your entire room and likely be able to charge admission for music or ht. Enjoy, Tim . |
Hello guhlamr, Congratulations, the JL Audio fathom f112 sub is an excellent choice. It's heavy at 115 lbs, solid, has a powerful class D amp, comes with a mic and room correction and the 12" driver should be very good for music and ht. Plus at $1,200, you got a great deal. Good job. For setup, I'd still suggest placing it at your listening seat, playing the demo mode on the JL and walking around your room perimeter to find the best spot to locate it. The bass will probably sound exaggerated in the corners when you do this walk around. Once this is done, you can run the auto room correction to fine tune the bass response at your listening position even further. The last step is finding the right crossover frequency that works well for music and ht. My suggestion is to set this frequency as low as possible while still sounding good to you. Remember, the sub is there to provide good bass impact when the content calls for it, the goal is not to constantly hear it. This is what is meant by 'seamless integration' with your main speakers. Enjoy, Tim |
Hi Tim, sorry for the super late response. I was on vacation with family. Want to make sure I don’t ignore a fellow audiophile, specially when you have been so helpful. Well good new is - I purchased a JL Audio fathom f112 sub just last night. It is in immaculate condition and I paid $1200 for it. It just got back from JL Phoenix service center with a complete service too. Its a beast to unpack - but could not wait to do so. Hooked up without much calibration to my benchmark DAC/preamp and my oh my. All I can say is I was missing so much in my 2 channel listening? I had not idea. I am hearing low octave details that were not there before and I think the Von Schweikerts have opened up more 60 Hz and up. I want to take this next week to really take the time to dial in the sub for both 2 channel and HT. As for using OPPO as an HT processor compared to Marantz - I had played around a lot with that idea and did a lot of serious comparisons. For HT I think using Ausessy calibration setup really gives an upper hand to Marantz. Movies really have that slam and dynamism and open theater sound using the Marantz with Audessy compared to OPPO. I am keeping my OPPO though for network use, reading my flac files from HD and de-embedding the HDMI from Apple TV for my digital Apple Music. Very happy with that set up driven through the benchmark DAC/preamp. |
Hi ghulamr, You already have a very good system with high quality speakers that can reproduce very deep bass well. Can you tell me exactly what qualities you'd like to improve on the bass of your system? I just read a very good review on your Von Shwiekert VR4 MKII speakers on Dagogo.com. In the review, he mentions bi-amping them using a pair of class D 200 watt Channel Island D-200 mono blocks on the bass modules with very good results. The D-200 monos are no longer made but there are many very good high powered class D amps that could be used instead. Class D amps are often used to drive subs because they're small, powerful,have low very low levels of distortion, have very high damping factors and are relatively less expensive. Would you prefer to try this out before sub woofers? Here's a link to the Dagogo review: www.dagogo.com/channel-island-audio-plc-1-d-200-class-d-monoblock-amplifiers-and-xdc-2-ac-enhancing-... If not, I think you have 2 options for setting up a distributed bass array system in your room: Opt#1- Custom DBA: Use your existing pair of VR4 bass modules as sub#1 and sub#2 of the 4 subs required. This option has 2 variations since you would need to buy either A. 2 passive subs of your choice as sub#3 and #4 and the Dayton SA-1000 class AB 1KW amp used by the Swarm ($419 at Parts Express) or a class D 4 ch amp to drive all 4. Or, B. 2 amplified subs of your choice as sub#3 and #4 and either keep your current setup of not bi-amping your VR4s or biamp them if you'd like. Opt#2- AK Swarm or Debra DBA: Keep your existing system as is and just buy and add the Swarm or Debra complete system with 4 subs and the class AB amp to drive them. No matter which option you choose, I can help you with the proper setup procedure and any additional subs or amps you'd need. Opt#2, since it would actually consist of 6 subs in your room- the 4 Swarm subs plus the 2 VR4 bass modules) would likely provide the best quality bass and most bass (but controllable with the overall system volume control on the Swarm amp). Please let me know your thoughts on this and removing the AV7005 from your system. Tim |
Duke Lejeun: " Thank you very much Tim. I find your posts quite educational, as I think you have more real-world experience than I do, and you have paid very close attention to your experiences. And you write very well! " Hi Duke, Thanks for the kind words. I've done quite a bit of research on low bass room acoustics, in-room behavior of the longer bass sound waves and sub woofers in general. But I don't consider myself an expert, just an enthusiast who has learned enough to be dangerous. My main motivation was trying to supplement the less than stellar bass produced from my main speakers, a pair of Magnepan 2.7QR 6 x 2 ft. panels that bottom out at 37Hz. These speakers have excellent mid-range and treble response but I knew my system needed better low bass response. I also knew that integrating subs with electrostatic and planar speakers seamlessly was considered difficult by many. I began my journey searching for good bass response by using a single large M&K passive sub with a 12" driver powered by a separate class AB 150 watt amp.and later added a 2nd 10" self-powered sub. I'd describe the bass quality of both of these initial tests as better suited for HT than music. It was relatively easy to position the sub and subs so that the bass sounded best at my listening position. After adding the 2nd sub, I perceived the bass as more detailed and smoother but it continued to seem disconnected and not well integrated with my main speakers on music. Since buying and properly installing the AK Debra bass system, I now consider my journey searching for good bass response completed. I'm not going to describe again how well the distributed bass array concept, whether the AK Swarm, AK Debra or a custom setup, actually works but instead just state I now consider my system's bass response for both music and HT as state of the art. I believe this concept will work equally well in any room, with any speakers and that any skeptic would be convinced once they auditioned a properly setup system. My sole intention is just to share the word about an exceptional solution. Tim |
Thank you Tim and Duke, and everyone else who has go graciously taken the time out to write and educate. There is a lot to this subject just like any other piece of equipment in the audio chain, and to me that is where the most fun is being an audiophile. In regards to subwoofers there is no debate that multiple subs are better, but to choose one that matches with your room acoustics, and your R/L speakers is equally important. I believe for HT it makes the task a little easy, but for dedicated 2 channel critical listening it gets tough. How well does the subwoofer pair with your R/L speakers cross overs will depend on how well and smoothly it rolls off, bringing the mids and low to life. For my Von Schweikerts VR4 that hit 20Hz comfortably and smoothly, it’s really difficult to pair a good subwoofer. The only way is to audition - but it’s really a hassle to ship the product back every time. Again this is a journey and definitely I am just now in the beginning stages (currently own a NHT SW1 8 inch sub powered by a SA1 mono amplifier). I have owned the sub since 1998 and it’s time to upgrade - mostly for 2 channel listening. |
Thank you very much Tim. I find your posts quite educational, as I think you have more real-world experience than I do, and you have paid very close attention to your experiences. And you write very well! I think a good distributed multisub setup is pretty effective at largely removing the room’s signature in the bass region, which is normally superimposed atop all of our recordings. We don’t realize what has been happening until it’s gone. Duke |
Duke/Audio Kinesis, Thank you for your unexpected but very informative and interesting contributions to this thread. I think many have the somewhat mistaken belief that attaining good in-room bass response is simply a matter of using 1 or 2 subs of a particular, or 'right', brand and model in their systems. My experience is that 1 or 2 good subs can achieve good bass response at one specific sweet spot in most rooms but this results in inconsistent bass response throughout the remainder of the room, heard at various specific spots in the room as bass peaks, nulls and even bass absence. For those unconcerned with good bass response being restricted to a specific sweet spot, I think 1 or 2 subs properly located can be a satisfying solution. The distributed bass array concept of 4 subs properly positioned definitely has the advantage of producing very good bass response throughout the entire room for those that require it. However, I've noticed other benefits to the bass quality that were unexpected that I'm theorizing are only possible due to there being 4 subs dispersed throughout the room and their cumulative affect. My best description is the bass in my room became more agile or flexible in the sense it can faithfully reproduce whatever bass is dictated by the source material, whether it's music or HT. It can be finely detailed on music that allows for the easy identifying of the different bass instruments being played, following the separate bass lines and also the small changes in pitch, tone and volume of each instrument. The bass can also be powerful and delivered with sudden impact which helps convey the large dynamics of live music and the low frequency effects on HT. My main point is that a distributed bass array system, whether the Swarm or a custom setup, has more benefits than just good bass response throughout the entire room, it also elevates the quality of that bass to state of the art. I've never been able to achieve this level of bass quality in my system with 1 or 2 subs. Tim |
I don't use subs with my main listening system as my speakers are 3 db down at 20 hz, but I do augment bass for video use and run a pair of the Hsu VTF15H Mk 2 for home theatre use, and agree that they are excellent. Hard to get more bang for your buck than that. Strongly suggest that those who can afford it get a matched pair rather than a single. |
Kink56 wrote: "Well I’ll be damned if it didn’t make the whole stereo sound more defined." Nice job! Improved bass smoothness often pays dividends beyond what our intuition would lead us to expect. Some of this is predicted by the Fletcher-Munsen curves, which bunch up south of 100 Hz. This indicates that the ear has a heightened sensitivity to variations in SPL at low frequencies, as a 3 dB difference at 40 Hz is perceptually comparable to a 6 dB difference at 1 kHz. On the other hand the ear has poor time-domain resolution at low frequencies, so differences in arrival time in the bass region are usually imperceptible. This is good news for the distributed multisub approach. But I cannot explain the subjective improvement well above the bass region that many people report after making improvements in their subwoofer systems. I hear it too, but until I can offer a plausible explanation my Ministry of Propaganda will focus on other things. Duke |
I have 3 ENTEC subwoofers in one system. I have them set up as a stereo pair and one in the center as a summed channel. Since reading this thread I decided to take the center one and place it off to the extreme one side and at a 90 degree angle to my stereo pair. Well I'll be damned if it didn't make the whole stereo sound more defined. I can see where the Audio Kinesis Swarm concept is so well liked by TAS. |
I just found this thread; I don’t check in on Audiogon as often as I should. By far most of my activity is in prosound. I’m the guy who makes the Swarm. @noble100 , thank you very much for your enthusiasm and excellent explanations. I would like to comment on something posted by batman1971: "The storm is just 4 10 inch passive subs running off one 1000 watt amp. The home theater guys were introduced to the idea of four subs intelligently distributed by Earl Geddes and Todd Welti (independently of one another). In the Swarm, I’m using Earl’s idea with his permission. My guess is that this idea caught on faster among home theater enthusiasts for three reasons: 1. It gives good results over a wider listening area than one or two larger equalized subs. 2. High-end HT calls for high output at low frequencies anyway, so using multiple subs to achieve that may already be called for. 3. High-end audio guys are generally more focused on the excellence of individual components, so a single uber-sub with exotic woofer technology having extreme excursion capability driven by a high-end amplifier is a lot more "sexy" than four little subs driven by a Parts Express amp. (Just for the record, I happen to think that shelf-mounted Parts Express amp, the SA-1000, is very good for the money. And the combined motor strength of my four 10" woofers compares favorably to any single home audio woofer on the Data-Bass website as of a couple of years ago, though they were surpassed by the 21" B&C prosound woofer with the 1 ohm voice coil.) As for price, I have no problem whatsoever with people finding a less expensive solution. Here are a couple of things that might help you get good results: Imo a good "target curve" for a subwoofer is -3 dB per octave across the bass region, say from 80 Hz down to 20 Hz. This is the approximate inverse of "typical" room gain from boundary reinforcement, which will of course vary quite a bit from one room to another - my point being, try to take room gain into account, giving you one less thing to have to "fix" later on. Also, you want a fairly steep low-pass filter for a distributed multisub system, especially for any subs that will be closer to the listener than the main speakers. You don’t want audible upper bass/lower midrange energy leaking through those nearby subs and giving away their locations, as that’s distracting. I wish I knew how to do a far less expensive Swarm that only traded off max SPL capability and maybe some low-end extension, but I simply do not have the economies of scale to do so. The labor to build four smaller boxes is about the same as the labor to build the boxes I use, and the savings in material cost would be minor. It is much less expensive to build one big box than to build four small ones. One possible way to do a "DIY budget Swarm" would be, four .75 cubic foot Parts Express knock-down sealed subwoofer cabinet kits; four 8" Dayton Audio woofers; and one SA-1000 amplifier. For those who already have a sub or two, you can add some more, and they don't have to all match. For those with fewer budget constraints, imo four Rhythmics would be mighty sweet. One final note on EQ: A good distributed multi-sub system significantly reduces the frequency response variation from one location to another within the room, such that EQ is much more likely to make a global (thoughout-the-room) improvement instead of merely a local one. Duke |
I have had 5 different SVS subs, none of which are still here. I had one of very expensive Paradigm subs which was too boomy for me, so it's gone. The room I am in is 30x30 with an 18 foot high vaulted ceiling, a mezzanine level overhead walk way, stone under it and glass on the opposite wall. The other walls are made up of cabinets, stereo gear, book shelves.... its a mix of everything, but for some reason, things just work well for 2 channel stereo which is my main use. I am currently using three subs: Axiom Audio EP800, EP500 and a Bryston Model T sub. The Bryston is made for them by Axiom too. Honestly, there is no comparison between the Axiom products and any of the SVS subs I used including their flagship Ultra SB16. Hands down the Axioms are far more powerful, smooth and just plain musical. For your sized sub required, I'd suggest the EP500. And pay no attention to the power ratings on subs. The SVS's were rated at some huge number of watts, but after two of them burned out and I took them apart to inspect; all I can say is the amps are in my opinion too light. The Axiom amps which are rated at a much more conservative output have monster linear toroid power supplies.... the dynamic head room is immense and you cannot clip these drivers. Check them out, I think you will be very happy. |
+1 for Rythmik. My FG12 is a servo-controlled, paper-coned, 12" sealed sub. Very fast and musical, it marries really well with my Maggie MMGs for music and is all you could ask for in a HT application as well (certainly for my modestly-sized listening area of ~ 24’ x 15’). Has the connections you want, is powerful, infinitely adjustable, and the dimensions are almost exactly what you listed. Very reasonably priced, I’ve always considered it a superb value for the money. I even bought it here on Agon! |
Hi guhlamr, I also have an Oppo BDP-105 in my system. Excellent and versatile machine that has exceptional audio performance. I also use a 2TB external hard drive that contains ripped copies of all my cds and some other hi-res 24/bit/96Khz Flac files (great minds?). Your description of hook-up details looks good to me with one exception: " the only manual change between HT and dedicated listening will be to remove the XLR inputs from Simaudio and connect the RCA input from Marantz every time I set it up for HT (have to borrow the 2 channel amp). I can use a switch box for that eventually. " Why not just connect the front L+R mains outputs from the Marantz to the L+R inputs on the Simaudio amp permanently? You're only playing music or HT and never both at the same time, right? This would eliminate any need for unplugging/plugging of connections and switching would be automatic and seamless. If there's no switch on the back of the Simaudio amp to select XLR or rca inputs, this indicates that both inputs are active and the unit will just amplify the signals that are inputted. I doubt it would attempt to amplify both XLR and rca signals if they are present at the same time. But it really doesn't matter since you only play 1 at a time (music or HT) there will only be either XLR or rca signals inputted to the amp at a time and not both. I also wanted to suggest a change to your HT setup that I've made in my system that you may not have yet considered. This is just an optional change to your system mainly focused on simplification and streamlining. I believe you could remove the Marantz AV7005 from your system without a performance penalty. You're currently using two high quality prepros in your system, the Oppo and the Marantz. Unless the Marantz has a capability that the Oppo lacks that I'm unaware of, there really is no need for this redundancy. I think we both use a 5.1 surround for HT in our 5.1 HT systems (5.4 with the Swarm?). You could connect your 3-ch amp directly to the Oppo 105, it has a very high quality surroud sound processor that decodes up to 7.1 ( contained on a separate/isolated audio board using multiple high quality and expensive Saber 9018 dac chips), the cross over frequency can be set on the Oppo and its LFE output can be connected to the LFE input on the Swarm amp. I eliminated a Parasound AV2500 prepro from my system and replaced it with the Oppo 105. I thought the surround performance improved without a downside but YMMV. You could experiment and decide for yourself. For streaming, I'm just using Spotify on my laptop connected to a separate dac,3 watt class A headphone amp and good phones. But I think I should probably be receiving advice on this rather than giving it. Overall, you're plan sounds very good to me with the exception of switching inputs on your amp. Tim |
Hi Tim, this is great news. I am glad that the Swarm system can connect the LFE and Line in both at the same time. I have a Benchmark DAC1. The source for my digital music is Apple TV. I am connecting via HDMI in to OPPO 105 and coax out of OPPO into Benchmark. Music sounds heavenly. I play my FLAC files (all CD's burned to an external 2TB hard drive) via OPPO as well, which has an excellent file management system with Grace notes. I have thought about moving to Tidal music, but don't see a whole lot of improvement in sound at 320kbps. The only advantage I see is Tidal will allow me better streamer connection capability - like Allo Digi One Signature - instead of Apple TV. But I guess Apple really locks you in with all the ecosystem integrations. What do you think? Back to subwoofer connection. I took some time out to draw how the connection will look like on paper and I think I may have a solution. My 2 channel dedicated listening set up using Benchmark as preamp will be connected using XLR output into Simaudio XLR inputs. Subwoofer will be connected using the Benchmark RCA outputs to the RCA Line inputs of the subwoofer. I will calibrate the sub cross-over for stereo. For HT connection - Marantz LFE output will connect to the LEF input of the subwoofer and the preamp will calibrate the cross-overs. This connection will stay in place and the only manual change between HT and dedicated listening will be to remove the XLR inputs from Simaudio and connect the RCA input from Marantz every time I set it up for HT (have to borrow the 2 channel amp). I can use a switch box for that eventually. Does that sound right? Also any thoughts on the best way to connect/listen to streaming digital music? Thanks again Tim for your expert input. Getting closer... |
guhlamr, I forgot to mention, I wasn’t aware your amp had both XLR and rca L+R inputs. This is a good thing since I think you should be able to keep the L+R outputs of your DAC connected to the L+R inputs on your amp via XLR cables. Now I just need to take a closer look at your DAC and sources for their connections. Tim |
" but I really hope I am going about this incorrectly and there is a better/cleaner way to connect both HT and dedicated listening for Swarm system since you can only connect LFE or the RCA line in but not both at the same time. LFE uses the pre-processor cross over and RCA line in uses the subwoofers. Hi guhlamr, To help you find a good solution, I need to know the model number of your Benchmark DAC, the music source you use and how do you connect this source’s output to your DAC (which exact input you use?). Just to clarify, you stated: "LFE uses the pre-processor cross over and RCA line in uses the subwoofers." This is correct for the inputs on the Swarm sub amp. The bass cross-over setting for the LFE output would be set on your AV7005 and the Swarm amp’s low-pass onboard cross-over is bypassed. For music, the bass cross-over frequency is set using the Swarm amp's front panel control. You also stated: " you can only connect LFE or the RCA line in but not both at the same time." This is incorrect for the inputs on the Swarm sub amp. You can connect both and the Swarm amp will automatically detect which input is active and amplify it. This is how my system is setup. I only play one at a time, either music or ht and it automatically sends the source I’m playing to the subs. Thanks, Tim |
Hi Tim, Once again thanks for the detail write up. I also have been reading a ton and making phone calls to better understand how multiple subwoofers in a room make the bass better and how at the end of the day the Swarm system really is a great value. I am still a little unclear on how I can leverage the Swarm system for both HT and 2 channel listening. Subwoofers like the REL make it real easy for simultaneously connecting both the LFE and 2 channel ( using neutrik connector). Not sure how I would leverage the Swarm system. I am connecting my Benchmark DAC to the Simaudio via balanced XLR cables for 2 channel listening. I have a separate Marantz pre AV7005 for HT that I connect to my other 3 channel amp and when ready for movies I switch the XLR on the Simaudio to RCA connection out of the Marantz to get 5.1 (since Simaudio has both XLR and RCA). XLR for Benchmark and RCA for Martantz - but obviously never both at the same time. What I am hoping for is - I continue to use the Benchmark as the preamp for 2 channel listening and somehow connect to the Swarm using RCA y adapters (will have to compromise using RCA to connect Benchmark to Simaudio) as you had mentioned in option#2. When switching to HT - remove the RCA from Simaudio and connect the RCA R/L coming from Marantz pre and also take the Subwoofer out (SW1) from Marantz into the LFE input in Swarm and remove ther RCA line in from Swarm (as you cannot have both LFE and RCA connected to the sub at the same time). All this is doable but seems like a lot of work to switch between dedictaed 2 channel listening and HT. Feel like REL offers a more painless and easy solution. The other option is - I can stop using the Benchmark DAC as a preamp and start using the Marantz for both 2 channel and HT. Simply connect to Swarm using the LFE inputs. In this scenario I will be; (a) compromising on sound quite a bit in my 2 channel listening (Benchmark pre sounds amazing) and, (b) will be using the pre-processor cross over and not the subwoofer’s. As you can see there is not a clear solution to this without some compromise - but I really hope I am going about this incorrectly and there is a better/cleaner way to connect both HT and dedicated listening for Swarm system since you can only connect LFE or the RCA line in but not both at the same time. LFE uses the pre-processor cross over and RCA line in uses the subwoofers. |
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Can you help shed some light on how you best play 2 channel music with the Swarm system? I understand playing HT you can connect to the processor LFE - but how to best play 2 channel? Currently I play my 2 channel using the Benchmark DAC as preamp powered by Simaudio W5 amp driving VR4 speakers." Hi ghulamr, The supplied class AB amp for the Swarm has a single unbalanced rca input for LFE and separate L+R rca inputs for connecting the outputs of a preamp or your Benchmark DAC. I'm semi-familiar with Benchmark DACs and believe most models have both XLR and rca L+R outputs. I'm not certain whether your model has both but I'll assume it does until you tell me otherwise. I know the Simaudio W5 amps usually have 2 sets of rca inputs, one istandard set and one set with inverted phase. If the above is accurate, you're likely already using the Benchmark's rca outputs to connect to your amp so there would be 2 options: Option#1: Use the Benchmark's XLR outputs and connect to the Swarm amp using either a pair of cables with XLR connections on one end and rca connectors on the other or use XLR to female rca jack adapters and connect to the Swarm amp using a pair of rca cables. Option#2: Use the Benchmark's rca outputs and use 2 rca y-adapters (male rca plug to two rca jacks) with one connected to the right channel output and one to the left channel output. Then use pairs of rca cables to reconnect the amp and connect to the Swarm amp. I'm glad you posted again and haven't ruled out the Swarm just yet. I can directly relate to your search since I was searching about 4 years ago for the same thing; very good bass response in my system that integrates seamlessly with my main speakers, capable of being fast and articulate enough for music while still being powerful and dynamic enough for both music and ht content. I know the Swarm may be a bit more expensive than you were expecting to pay for really good bass response in your system/room because, again, I initially felt the exact same way. When I began my search I recall thinking I'd probably wind up buying 1 of the several newer self-powered subs then on the market, experiment with it for a few weeks and return it if it didn't work out well. If it did work well, I could always try a 2nd one and determine if that performed even better. However, I then decided I needed to first become more knowledgeable about bass room acoustics and the best methods to achieve very good in-room bass response. After a few weeks of internet research. I learned about the distributed bass array concept, read the very positive TAS review of the commercially available complete kit example based on this concept (the AK Swarm system) and called AK. At this point, I was still hesitant mainly because it sounded too good to be true and I considered the $3K price a bit steep. But, after numerous phone and email conversations with AK dealer,James Romeyn, in Utah, I gradually gained confidence and, when he offered a free 4 week in-home trial, I decided to buy the system. It took about half a Saturday for a buddy and I to properly install it but I still consider the Swarm the best system upgrade I've ever made. I've used it for about 4 yrs now, and I still consistently have feelings and thoughts about how fortunate and grateful I am that I decided to give it a try. I don't think I can overstate how well the Swarm system performs in my room/system. I justified the price by equated it to about the same or less than the price of 2 very good conventional subs. Please don't hesitate asking if you have any further questions. Tim |
@noble100. Believe me I have read your post in detail slowly, sometimes a couple times and it has a wealth of information in it - and all of it makes sense and follows the audiophile do’s and dont’s. I am now inclining to give the Swarm base system a serious consideration. Can you help shed some light on how you best play 2 channel music with the Swarm system? I understand playing HT you can connect to the processor LFE - but how to best play 2 channel? Currently I play my 2 channel using the Benchmark DAC as preamp powered by Simaudio W5 amp driving VR4 speakers. |
millercarbon, Just callin' em like I see'em. I'm just enlightening guhlamr to some pertinent truths. It's his money, system and choice. Besides, I'm almost certain he'll be happier with multiple 12" subs than a single 15" sub. Everybody also knows I'm the chump responsible for guhlamr's happiness. And let me tell you, millercarbon, it's a lot of gosh darn constant pressure! I'm just hoping I don't blow a gasket, Tim |
millercarbon: " Like, we all talk about this stuff with regard to bass, when in reality its not only bass but all frequencies. With bass its in your face obvious. But its across the board." Hello millercarbon, From your last post, I can tell you have a good understanding of all this stuff. I agree with your comment that all frequencies are important in a room for good sound reproduction. I've reached the conclusion that, since bass frequencies behave differently than midrange and treble frequencies in any room mainly due to the large differences in the length of their sound waves, it's best to treat them separately. I've learned to get the bass response functioning properly first since it's the most difficult to get it sounding good in most rooms due to the very long lengths of low frequency sound waves. I think you agree with me that a precisely positioned 4 sub distributed bass array is the best method of achieving this. There are no mics, room correction software or hardware, parametric equalization and room treatments required. The complete Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra bass systems work very well, come with everything needed and are relatively inexpensive but any 4 subs will work as well or better as long as they're positioned properly, although they'll cost more. Once the bass is sounding good, the next step is to get the remaining midrange and treble frequencies sounding good which involve different room considerations due to the much shorter sound wave lengths involved. These frequencies also reflect off room boundaries but colliding midrange and treble sound waves are so numerous they're normally perceived as an 'airy' quality. The most important factor for good stereo imaging is that the direct, non-reflected sound waves from both the l + r speaker reaches the ears first before any reflected sound waves do. Room treatments, that absorb or redirect first reflections, are proven methods to ensure this happens at the selected listening position. The later reflected midrange and treble sound waves arrive at the listening position, the better. But I'll refrain from further discussing the proper speaker and room configurations for good midrange and treble response at the listening position since most reading this are likely already knowledgeable about them. Tim |
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ghulamr, It seems like you've decided to go with a single sub in your system. You'll still be able to get good bass response with a single sub if you're willing to accept just having a single bass sweet spot at your listening seat. I'd suggest looking at Monoprice's sub offerings and you could buy 2, or even 4, for about your $600 budget. These will not go as deep as the Earthquake or NHT but I think having 2 or more 12" subs will give better results than a single 15" sub. Remember, all of these subs are run in mono and you'll get the dual benefits of cumulative bass output(you'll perceive the bass as more powerful but will not be able to pinpoint where it's coming from) and the reduction of room modes that begins when you have 2 or more subs in a given room (bass will sound smoother and more natural). Also, neither sub is being over-driven. I know in any room, 2 subs will provide better bass performance than 1 sub, 3 better than 2 and 4 will provide exceptional bass response. I can advise you on proper positioning when using any quantity of subs from 1 to 4 and in between. For the optimum positioning of 1 sub in your room, I'd recommend placing the sub at your listening position and play some music with good and repetitive bass. Then, starting at the front right corner of your room, slowly walk along the perimeter of your room counter-clockwise until the bass sounds best to you. When you find this exact spot, place your sub at this position. Next, sit at your listening seat and replay the same music. If the bass sounds just as good to you, then you've successfully positioned your sub. If it doesn't sound just as good, you can either make small adjustments to the sub's position through trial and error until it does sound good to you or start the process all over again from the beginning. Tim |
This might have been mentioned already in one of the previous uber-wordy posts, but one of the cool things about RELs (and Vandys but not sure which others) is the speaker jack output to High Level input resulting in the subs sounding like your amp...otherwise long non balanced cable or, if yer lucky, balanced are the only alternatives, but I prefer the REL solution...besides you get to use Neutric Speakons which are made in Liechtenstein. |
It’s interesting to see so many different opinions. The product reviews online are all over the place too. Right now I am getting a good deal on an Earthquake supernova MKIV 15 inch for $625 and an NHT CS-12 for $500. Just lost a great deal on a REL T9i this morning for $300. I’d like to keep myself under the $600 budget - would have definitely opted for the REL’s. But so far it’s the Earthquake and NHT that I need to decide on. Any suggestions - maybe I wait and don’t get either. Thoughts? |
This can always be tough, as you’ve already noticed. The variables are great when maximizing your ROI and the overall acoustics, not to mention personal tastes and your “ear”. I’ve owned many subs... But will continue to invest in SVS’s SB-16 Ultras (until the next revolution 😉). Had a tough time between JL Fathoms, but in the end the SVSs put a smile on my face every time I listen to 2-channel or a movie. I still have the 3 Martin Logan subs it replaced, but I no longer use them unless no one is home, and I can’t see neighbors cars across the street. Enjoy the journey! |
I have a couple of 12" woofer SVS subs and like them. I think an important consideration is whether you want a ported or sealed box design. I have the sealed box, and truth be told I bought them because I read this is what was the best for 2 channel use. My system is 2 channel, but it is also hooked up to my video set up. Just like purist believe a preamp should not have tone and balance controls, they believe sealed box is the way to go. But I have to admit nowadays that I wish my preamp had tone and balance controls and MAYBE that my subwoofers were ported, to have that "explosive" quality, now and then. |
noble100 I don’t really understand what is meant by pressurizing the room. Can anyone please explain this physical process and its benefits? Yes Tim its clear from what you wrote that you do indeed have a good grasp on the situation. Having read everything here its apparent a lot of others would do well to read through your comments carefully, and more than once. And then go and read the referenced work as well. This is something I’ve been studying for quite a long time, going back to when I built my first transmission line (Roger Sanders, published in Speaker Builder) back in 1980. Like most things I don’t work on it consistently but in fits and starts, which I just happened to be doing recently, and so was really good timing coming across your Swarm experience here. One sold last October and if another one comes up I am on it, otherwise will probably be ordering new some time later on this year. Pressurizing the room is kind of descriptive but ultimately misleading. The only way the room could truly be pressurized is a closed room with speakers mounted in the walls. Even then it would only be pressurized when the drivers were moving into the room, depressurized when they move the other way. And even then there would still be the time it takes for the waves to propagate. There would still be nodes and anti-nodes. A lot of what we read about acoustics is like that, descriptive in a way that makes sense, sort of. Actual experience though, like you have with your Swarm, there is nothing like it for turning abstract idea into concrete reality. Like, we all talk about this stuff with regard to bass, when in reality its not only bass but all frequencies. With bass its in your face obvious. But its across the board. My listening room is a standard rectangle- 17x24x9. No odd shapes and when first built nothing in it, no furniture, no carpet, no nothing. At one point in fact it didn’t even have sheetrock! I had the unique experience of hearing this space go from framed up to fully treated, and everything in between. At one point the only "room treatment" was the carpet. Playing a CD with test tones you could clearly hear the distance between the nodes! As the frequency increases the node spacing decreases, some of them down to a few inches, something you can easily hear if you’re ever in a plain room like this. Clap your hands, you could hear it echo back and forth real fast- and even hear the difference between the fast echo lengthwise and the really fast echo crosswise! Same thing with bass of course, only as you know the wavelengths are so much longer. So one wave doesn’t even have time to generate a full cycle before it could start getting canceled by its own reflection. Another thing, almost always the talk is about the speaker location. As if that’s all that matters. When in reality (and as you so clearly understand) listener location matters just as much. Anyone who has ever had the experience I have had, of being able to stand where you cannot hear anything at all, then move your head just a very small amount and its loud, would know this. Its not abstract. Its reality. This is why the Swarm concept is so patently obviously correct to me. Any one speaker/listener setup can never get us where we want to be. It has to be a combination. Its simply physically impossible to eliminate the nodes. So don’t even try. Instead, make enough small ones to seem smooth. Brilliant. |
seasdiamond: " Wouldn’t it be easier to just get 2 subs and run room correction than go 4 subs?" Yes, many users might be satisfied with 2 subs room corrected to provide good bass response at a single sweet spot in their room and it would be certainly easier. I've helped several friends and family members with their smaller music and ht systems, usually just an a/v receiver, 3-5 spkrs and 1-2 subs. They usually want good sound for 1-2 people from a sofa facing an hdtv. I've positioned the mic at the center of the sofa and this has resulted in decent bass response for anyone sitting on the sofa but poor bass response at other seating positions in the room. Makes sense, right? Room correction is only capable of optimizing bass response from the single spot in the room you are giving it frequency response and volume data from (wherever you decide to position the mic). I haven't been overly impressed with the results of the limited room correction systems I've utilized. I've found I can easily attain better bass response results by positioning the subs by ear and trial and error, though I am able to get the best results using 2 subs rather than just 1. In my system, I was looking to get very good bass response for music and ht at all 7 seating positions spread around the perimeter of my 23 x 16 foot room. I positioned all 4 subs sequentially by ear and concealed all the wiring by running it in the crawl space below my living room. My best sounding sub configuration turned out to be 2 subs along the front 16' wall and 1-2 feet in from the front corners along with one sub along each 23' side wall, about 1-2 feet away from the rear corners. I've never had a room frequency response analysis done for my room but bass response is exceptionally and consistently good throughout the entire room. So, in my experience and to answer your question, 2 subs with room correction do not equal the bass performance quality of 4 subs either with or without room correction. 4 subs will provide an increase in a sense of effortless bass with increased detail and improved bass dynamics. These improvements will also be present throughout the entire room, not just at a predetermined sweet spot. Each individual needs to decide whether or not these bass improvements are important to them. Tim |