I have an NAD C390DD all digital integrated amplifier. I am considering a big improvement in a DAC, as in a PS Audio Perfectwave DAC. This along with my Project Xtension 10 turntable/musical surroundings nova phenomena phono preamp, would give me quality analog signal inputs from all my sources. Considering an upgrade to an integrated that could better process analog to my PSB Imagine T2 speakers with a big improvement in SQ, any thoughts on an endgame amp for around 5 to 6,000?
Dear Easola, I am curious to why the Naim isn't a fit while the Wells is?
I am not saying that the Wells isn't a terrific piece, but to say that the Naim isn't as good and in some ways perhaps better is a silly argument.
Too many audiophiles think that just because you have a dac built into a amp that is not as desirable, while the press loves products such as the Hegel line and the Naim products.
We sell the T3 and the combination is fantastic sounding.
Each set up has its strengths. You should try to hear one with the T2 or T3 you would be shocked just how good the Nova is.
Please understand we have nothing to gain from this, the Wells stuff is very nice but your friend is being very narrow minded to say it is the best piece in its price range, it is one of many great products in its price range so is the the Prima Luna, Hegel and many others.
The point is do you want to move out of the audiophile merry go round and move to a simple fantastic product that does everything in one elegant box, that can become part of an entire world of entertainment that is part of the allure that the Naim has.
The Naim sound is really fantastic and the companies products are loved by music lovers all over the globe.
Our shop is filled with many audiophile products from the best brands in audio: Micromega, Naim, Anthem, Electrcompaniet, Parasound, and many others.
You would be surprised at how many people actually purchase the Naim because it not only sounds fantastic but when you actually demo one the product is just fantastic in the way it operates.
You may also want to check out the new Anthem STR integrated it is $4,500.00 includes an excellent dac, a phono stage, a headphone amplifier, and state of the art room correction and a 200 watt per channel high current amplifier.
Now how about comparing the Wells plus a dac and cable to a superior high technology integrated such as the Anthem STR and then see which way you may want to go, does you friend even know that the Anthem STR exists?
Our point is to examine the entire market and look at all the market leaders.
Now if you then add in state of the art room correction you may find that the Anthem will dramatically outperform anything in its price range.
Be open to all the possibilities.
If I were you I would seek out a dealer in your part of the country and take a listen to:
The Anthem STR The Wells Majestic The Naim Nova Hegel 360 Prima Luna.
You may be surprised which way you may lean but at least you would have a much better idea on some of these new fantastic products that you may find would work for you as well.
Okay, going to get the psb imagine t3 speaker upgrade. A friend of mine tells me that the Wells Majestic integrated amplifier would absolutely be the best amp in its price range of $3500. Reviews say it has a "convergence" sound giving the best sonic qualities of a tube and ss. Anyone listened to or own the wells?
Again, Easola, by the time you add up the $5-6k on amp add dac for $3k plus cables you will be spending way more money and not have an integrated solution with the advantages of the Naim.
The Naim sound is so engaging, it is warm and punchy like tubes but with better bass control then a tube amplifier. For so many years Naim has been loved by the major Naim cult guys in Europe, and the Europen press is wild about Naim's products, the Naim Nait integrated has been on everyones recommned lists for years.
The Uniti product line brings the Naim sound to a more wider range of users and has the major advantages that only a company like Naim can bring to market.
In terms of sound engineering Naim spent close to $4 million dollars developing this range of products and the new Uniti line actually uses trickle down technology from their much more expensive line of separate components.
When you factor in all the features, the ability to stream via ios or android, to the piece, the compact size the lack of heat, the fantastic app and the fact that the Naim offers additional products designed to work on the same echo system you will be totally thrilled.
We have sold a lot of the Uniti products and everyone loves them, it is like high end audio without the pain that an entire family can enjoy.
Just imagine one app to control any product that Naim makes and the ability to add $899 streaming speaker/amp like a Muso for a Kitchen or a Kids bedroom.
The Nova drives our T3 beautifully and can obviously drive the smaller T2 really well.
Please feel free to reach out to us if you need any additional information.
Hmmmmmm, interesting audio troy. I will have to look at that naim. I have changed my mind from the luxman to the simaudio 280 for a dac, but again will look at the naim. As far as upgrading the t2 to t3, that is double the price...I don't know. But you have given me food for thought
Personally I think you are going the wrong direction as evidenced by all of these suggestions. You are looking to spend way more money then you have to. If you are looking at the Prima Luna integrated plus a Luxman Dac and a Melco server you are talking $12-15k by the time you are finished with cables and other goodies to power $3k speakers.
You can actually get comparable sound and in some ways better for much less money today. In the last few years the concept of high end integrated with great dac has been gaining mommentium and the reason is simple:
1: you can save money 2: you can eliminate complexity 3: you can save space 4: and in some ways get sound quality and technology that was not available unless you spent way more money.
you get a powerful 80 watt Naim amplifier, a superb dac, a built in streamer and it connects to almost any streaming device ie Apple Airplay, Google Chromecast, DLNA and Blu tooth.
This means that an entire family can now access the once too complicated world of high end devices.
The Naim Uniti Nova sounds amazing, with a huge sound stage, deep tight bass and a liquid midrange, it sounds similar to a $13k Naim 272 preamp and a 250DR amp which improves upon the sound but it is surprisingly similar.
The Uniti Nova comes with a fantastic easy to use and sexy control app is of moderate size and weight and drives the PSB beautifully we play it with the T3 and the combo is fantastic!
In addition the Uniti is part of an entire family of streaming amp/speakers the Muso line which starts a $899 so you can seemlessly add more interconnected Naim products to more room in your home such as Kitchen or guest room.
If your heart is set on trying tubes there is a fantastic tube integrated which should outperform the Prima Luna piece and it has an excellent built in dac this is the Synthsis Action 100 which is a 100 watt KT 66 based Italian tube amp from one of Europes most respected tube companies.
http://www.synthesis.co.it/action-a100t.php again it costs way less then going the separate dac amp route it is $7,500.00 the internal dac was previoulsy sold separately for $3k and it does 24/192k sampling okay not quite as nice as the outboard dac route but the internal dac sounds really excellent.
You may ask yourself why do these guys know so much? We have one of the largest collections of high end gear on the East Coast and we have tested many of the major brands of gear out there.
We have a huge selection of state of the art integrated amplifiers from
NAD M32, Micromega M100, Anthem STR, Naim Uniti Nova, Synthesis A100T, T+A R2500 and a few others,
Unision Research makes another great contender the Unision Research Unico 90 which is a $5k tube/hybrid integrated if you want to get the best possible bass control with the magic of tubes the Unison is the piece.
I hope this helps we would love you to consider some of these new suggestions as you may be able to get a great sounding system that would now have a host of new advantages for you while saving money to move up to a pair of T3 or other great even better speakers than the PSBS.
Hello jbhiller. I have decided on the primaluna hp. Sounds like a terrific component. I am intrigued about tubes and their SQ. You helped me on this. I do want something that will bring the best out of my T2's. I know that they are not $30,000 speakers, so I need a special amp to produce good sound. I am also looking at the luxman da-06 DAC for the lush SQ it provides. Coupling these with a melco n1-a server....after these my system will be complete. Any suggestions would be welcome! P.S. What did you mean about swapping pl for ss? Also, so glad you like your hp with your T2's. Did you hear other amps with them and then decided on an hp? James
If you are at all considering a tube integrated amp, you might give some thought to the Rouge, Cronus Mag. II. When home auditioning some very nice power and integrated amps to drive my Maggie 1.7s ( a bit more difficult load than the PSBs) even over the Prima Luna Dialogue HP, I chose the Rouge. With the Maggies, the Rouge did every thing as well as the Prima Luna (very open and detailed, yet smooth and musical, with a very large stage and very good imaging) but with less effort and a little less heat. The Rouge was also a bit more dynamic with percussions and base. Just a thought, Jim
By the way, it's actually a treat to swap out the PL for SS. I'm so excited for fall weather to arrive in Chicago. When it does, I'm getting a whole new sound for the Fall and Winter!
I have the Primaluna Dialogue Premium HP integrated feeding the T2s.
It's plenty of power in my room--about 13 wide by 22 long by 9 high. I love it. I have only 2 gripes with it and they are small. 1. When you power it up it defaults to ultralinear mode, which is not my preferred mode (I like triode more). All you have to do is push a button so this is pretty neglible. 2. The remote seems pretty directional, meaning it needs to generally be pointed in the direction of the unit as opposed to other remotes that seem to work from the next room.
The HP version should be able to drive most speakers and it is great with the T2s. Whether you will like it depends on personal taste. I love it into the T2s. I do not, however, use it from June-September as it pumps out a good bit of heat. I swap in the Creek or Peachtree for the summer months.
I cannot say enough good about the HP version. There are plenty of reviews online for you to read, which will be more succinct and eloquent that anything I can say. One caveat--the HP is a tube rollers dream, but swapping out power tubes (there are 8) can get pricey quick. That said, it's such a great amp to experiment with. I wasn't planning on tube rolling yet that was a nice feature with the autobias. Once I tried tube rolling out of curiousity I was hooked. But that's not for everyone.
Hadn't had any feedback on my earlier post. Does that mean that no one has an opinion of the NAD M32 (with the BluSound module
for streaming Tidal), and that amp paired with the Focal Aria 926 or
936? If you do, I'd appreciate your comments. Thanks.
I know the lower end primaluna amp may not be the best match for the imagine t2 speakers, as its power is at the lower end. But what about, say, the primaluna hp at 70 to 85 wpc? I am intrigued about a "tubey" sound. A lot of audiophiles love the tubes, and as I am looking at getting a project xtension 10 and a good dac as well, I assume a good tube would respond well to quality analog signals?
I became curious to see if my aural memory was accurate. I swapped in the Creek Evo 100 yesterday and listened for a good 3 hours. The Creek is just clearer. It's lens into the music is cleaner. The Nova300 is bigger in sound, but not sweeter or with as much resolution.
Thanks for the great post. Now I would really like to hear the Creek EVO 100.
Regarding break-in of the class-D Nova; I can tell you my class-D amp took well over 500 hours to really start opening up and it made another nice performance leap after the 1000 hour mark.
Thanks again for the remarks about the Creek EVO 100 and the Peachtree Nova 300. I appreciate it.
I cannot comment on your phono preamp as I have not heard it. But the notion of a good phono pre brings up a good point.
The phono stage in my Creek Evo 100A is decent, but when I bought a Manley Chinook phono stage it changed everything for the better. In fact, I got the same advice from folks on these forums when I was looking to spot my weakest link. I’d have to go back to the thread that I started to see for sure, but I remember one guy passionately recommended upgrading from the Creek’s phono and keeping the Creek. I didn’t listen to that advice and started with the Primaluna upgrade and put the Creek on the bench.
What happened? Well I loved the Primaluna. But later when I did upgrade the phono to the Chinook I found, and can clearly say, that the Chinook made the biggest improvement. I can still enjoy the Primaluna OR the Creek with my Imagine T2s, but in either case it’s the Chinook that’s the true MVP. I would never have thought that because--to me, before--a phono stage was not a very sexy purchase. Amps and speakers was where it was at.
Now, to make matters more confusing...
The built in phono stage on the Nova300 is very good. It is actually better than the Creek.
The Nova300 is very good, and for folks who don’t want separates and want to use a one box solution it is very talented and super reasonably priced. So I want to be careful about saying one thing is clearly better than the other for all purposes.
Back to sonic signature...
The Creek does everything well and nothing poorly. It is well behaved and not harsh. It’s crisp and defined with really strong but fit (not bloated) bass. I can tell you that I was thinking of going McIntosh after the Creek. While I never tried Mac gear with the T2s, I did try it with Sonus Faber Olympicas and B&Ws--not apples to apples. Nonetheless, after hearing a $20K+ system, I thought the Creek and T2s were better to my ears in my room. The Creek Ruby DAC board (not cheap, $600) is really, really good. It holds its own with my NAD M51 DAC--a Stereophile A+ product. The NAD has more finesse and detail, but the Creek doesn’t misbehave and has superb creamy big sound.
The Nova300 is a bit hard to nail down. I don’t hear any grain in the high treble as Stereophile did in its review. [They played it through vintage horn speakers]. The Nova300 did seem to take a long time to break in. Sonically, I feel that it’s trying hard to present a cohesive sound smoothly. It’s very good and has gobs of power. Funny though that the 300w per channel into 4 ohms does not have more control over the T2s than the Creek at 170w at 4 ohms.
The Nova300 is a very, very nice amp at the price. It seems to cast a cohesive picture of the music in a concerted smooth way--at the cost of resolution shy of the Creek. The top, middle and bottom end are sort of blended together and, while this sounds seamless to me, I just like the character of the Creek more. Yet the Nova300 is a damn fine amp. I really, really need to hook the Nova300 up to my KEF LS50s to try that on for size. The reason is now obvious to me: synergy is important. The Creek and KEF LS50s sound great together, but I wonder of the Nova300 would be a better fit with the KEFs.
So after all this, we can tell I'm not the best reviewer in terms of describing stuff. Sometimes it just comes down to, "I like this one better." The best I can do on sonic signature of Creek EVO 100 v. Peachtree Nova300 is say it equates (in my mind with the PSB T2s) of a more high fidelity rig sound in the Creek versus a more common stereo sound in the Peachtree. The Creek is more sophisticated and better under the aural microscope (things are in the right place and delineated more clearly). But I’d be willing to bet the Peachtree would have killer synergy with some other speakers--not that it doesn’t sound good with the T2s.
And finally, I should say this. The Peachtree might best the Creek and the Primaluna with orchestra works in my system. This might be because some classical recordings present more of an aggregate picture as opposed to imaging detail. If the music is recorded to look like a class picture of 50 kids as opposed to a quintent of five friends, the Peachtree can shine as it has gobs of power. But the Primaluna and the Creek can show you that picture of five kids better, as they depict the intimacy of detail and mood better. I hope that makes sense!
Okay. Well, the mc blackbird is low output. I guess the phono stage is at approximately the same price point as the cartridge. Will have to give this some thought
Yes, I understand. Sometimes you ask one thing and get so many different opinions covering the entire system. But that's not bad actually because the entire system must work as one, as one component, in a manner of speaking. Perhaps you are right to find the best integrated first and then maybe deal with the phono stage. Besides, that hypothetical integrated might have an onboard phono stage that will be just as good as what you have now or better. Any Rogue Pharaoh owners? How good is the phono in there? Your Blackbird cartridge, is it High Output or Low output? Generally speaking of separate not onboard phono stages and assuming that msrp is about right, phono stage should be at least twice as expensive as the cartridge to get everything or almost everything out of the cartridge, in my opinion. In my own set-up it is about four times more expensive. When considering an integrated with onboard phono, one should be reasonably sure that the phono stage was not an afterthought, that the designer is indeed serious about vinyl playback. VAC, Gryphon are, Octave possibly too, not sure.
Well, okay. I don't know, can you suggest a phono preamp? I guess I am a little disoriented, as every review I have read is glowing regarding the move phonomena
The T2s and the Creek were a great match. The Creek digs to 170w at 4ohm and the first 25 w are class A. It really did the trick. I moved the Primaluna out for the hot Chicago summer months and went back and forth with the Creek and Peachtree.
The Creek has such a nice spectrum of sound. Nothing is bloated and the highs are simply airy without harshness. I'd love to try the Creek up against many other SS integrateds because it has great PRAT and does everything well. It is very smooth.
The bass on the Creek into the T2s is really something. I thoroughly enjoyed that.
The Nova is a bit harder to pin down. I don't know if the Class D stuff really takes more time to break in. I like it now and all is good, but I don't think it sounds as good as the Creek or the PL. All of that said, the Peachtree is up and running and keeps me happy. When fall strikes, it'll move out and the PL back in.
You see, phono stage is very very important, and I think your analog rig deserves better. You don't get everything out of it. No-one is saying that what you have is a bad phono, it is just..well..kind of okay. $1000 for a new phono stage is not much these days.
I am sorry, I do not understand why everyone is suggesting I trade in my phono preamp? All the reviews I have read about the musical surroundings nova phonomena say it is excellent. Not that money is the barometer, but it is a $1000 amp. It is designed by Michael Yee, a renowned phono preamp designer. Can someone enlighten me?
Not sure if your response above was to me or jbhiller.
The Primaluna HP is his favorite. I had the Prologue Premium and while nice I much prefer my current LM 518.... that's why I sold the PL. I don't suggest the PL Prologue Premium with the T2's but sounds like you can swing the Dialogue HP and that is a better choice in the PL line for your speakers. I haven't listened to the HP but I've heard great things about it. It has a ton of tubes so tube rolling could get expensive? Maybe jbhiller can respond as to the stock tubes? The stock tubes in my Prologue were good but I changed them all out over time which improved the overall sound.
By the way along with my LM 518ia integrated I also have the Line Magnetic 505 CD player. It also has a great DAC inside and has a USB input so I use it for CDs as well as streaming Tidal from my laptop ... at 192KHz.
I'm very happy with my digital sources but I listen 90% to albums and that is my priority. I agree with Inna too...at some point an upgrade of your phono preamp would be a good idea (IMHO).
Fantastic. Okay, so the primaluna was your favorite with the T2's? I can swing the HP primaluna....so you had the prologue and it was still your favorite even with inadequate power? Sounds fascinating...can you please tell me why you preferred a lower power amp to the others? My concern is that with my NAD, with all digital circuitry, I am not getting the best sound quality for my T2 speakers out of my analog turntable setup. Also, I would probably get a really good DAC which of course would also provide an excellent analog signal into the amplifier from the streamer and cd transport. Trying to figure this out....I am a bit of a newbie
I responded earlier discussing my current integrated LM 518ia and T2's. Prior to this, and overlapping for about a year, I had a Primaluna Prologue Premium integrated amp. Primaluna is an excellent integrated. Sonically I preferred the EL34 tube sound but it didn't seem to have quite enough "oomph" for me. Rolling in the TungSol 150s added that oomph with more and tighter bass, but the creamy mids suffered. The LM seems to give me both and I would love to hear the new LM 508 integrated. I sold the Primaluna.
But the Primaluna is a great amp. I would suggest if you go Primaluna that you should get the Dialogue Premium at a minimum (not the Premium) and if you can swing it the Dialogue HP would make the T2's sing as jbhiller says.
That's great you've been able to use a variety of amps with the T2. Could you go into more detail of the sonic signature of the Nova 300 and the Creek 100A with the T2?
I have tried the Primaluna Dialogue HP Premium, Creek Evolution 100A, and PeachtreeNova 300.
If you're open to tubes, I'd highly recommend the Primaluna. It's a great match with the T2s.
I haven't gone up the the $5k mark on the solid state end. But I can tell you that the T2s put out the sonic character of the amp used. I could see playing around with amps to no end.
I thought the 300 watt Peachtree would be fun to get the T2s really moving. I have to agree with others, you don't need as much power as you'd think. All of the SS recommendations above are certainly worthy of your time and money.
I'd be curious to hear the Luxman or the Bryston. If you are open to tubes, I think you'll be very happy with the Primaluna. And if you don't like it, they sell quickly used and keep their value.
I am thinking that a good primaluna tube might be good for my analog signals from a dedicated dac (for streamer and cd transport) as well as xtension 10 turntable....matted to my PSB Imagine T2 speakers...anybody have any thoughts on going the tube route with my configuration?
Thanks for the feedback. By "streamer" I meant an amp that has a decent Android control app for streaming Tidal, which is a "must". I also should have mentioned that I'm looking for a solid state amp. Any other suggestions are appreciated.
I'll also mention Gryphon Atilla used though it's almost impossible to find. Gryphon now has two new integrateds - Diablo 120 and Diablo 300. Many say that there is no better transistor integrated amp than Diablo 300 and there never has been. This would be my theoretical choice for myself. As for tubes, it's more complicated, Octave, VAC, Manley could all work very well. There are other German tube amps that are worth considering as well. I would probably try Octave first.
I'm starting from scratch and looking for an "all in one" (amp/pre-amp/dac/streamer) to go with Focal Aria 926 or 936 speakers. Now looking at the Moon ACE and the NAD M32, which I liked better than the ACE. Any other suggestions for an AIO generally or one particularly suited to the ones I mentioned under $4,000.00 would be appreciated. Thanks.
Hey, what about Luxman? Or, maybe Mcintosh maybe? Tubes sound nice, but heard that the low wpc doesn't perform well on low frequencies....great soundstage though
The project xtension10 has a sumiko blackbird cartridge. The musical surroundings is a design by phono preamp designer Michael Yee....so I think I am good there. Upgrading speakers is a thought....a little tepid about buying speakers used though...but electronics I am more comfortable with. Good suggestions...need to do research!
easola01 oops, my bad I thought the Django's were $6K and the Vandersteen Quatro's are now Quatro CT at $14K. Vandersteen Treo's are $8K. I was also discounting the $6K DAC.
To be clear I consider well designed speakers the most important component. I went round and round prioritizing bandwidth in economical speakers. The very minute my out of position Avaoln's played with my crap electronics my trajectory with this hobby was significantly altered. Even my more than crap electronics waiting to be sold became acceptably impressive.
Of second importance is my phono cartridge. If you value bass get two sealed DSP subs and not inside the speakers.
I would probably first replace the phono stage, solid state or tube - it depends on your taste and compatibility with your future integrated amp. As for the integrated or the idea to replace the speakers first - both are valid approaches, I think. I'll just mention a few amps without knowing your taste or how exactly they would work with your speakers: Pass INT-60 used, Regdum RGi120 new directly from Australia, Manley Stingray new or used, Pass INT-150 used, Rogue Pharaoh new, Octave SE edition used.
I have PSB Imagine T2's hooked up to a Line Magnetic 518ia (22 wpc). This amp powers the T2's just fine...I am never past 11 o'clock on the volume control even listening at my "max." LM has released the 508ia since I bought my 518 and is 45 wpc I believe if you think 22 wpc isn't enough. The 518ia is a beautiful sounding 845 SET amp in my opinion. That said.....I would love a pair of Vandersteen Quatros as recommended by m-db above :). The T2's are very nice but would probably be up for an upgrade if I were wanting to make a significant change. Good luck....let us know what you decide.
Bryston looks good! Will look into it. m-db, the Martin djangos are $10,000 speakers! I have PSB Imagine T2's, but am looking for an amp that will make them sing. I don't know, perhaps $5000 is too much to spend for a pair of $3500 speakers. I am going to keep looking
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