Best cost no object tube phono

Ralph's(atmasphere)  and Mike Levine's names should definitely be on that list !

@rauliruegas  Al (almarg) and Roger (ramtubes) have both passed on, RIP.

""   Don’t bother with a list of knowledgeable people posting on Audiogon, i know there are som3....""

there are not some but hundreds, some don't post to often today as in the past but you can invite any of them to participate in something you want to learn. Here only a few of them with their monikers and that I know are not posting in wbt. In no importance order::

quiddity, t-bone, tonywinsc, kirkus, dgarretson,dlaloum,fleib,timeltel, frogman, dover, fm-login, wynp, almarg, catcher10, fcrowder rushton, vetterone, eriksquires, grannyring,ferrari275,lewm,fleschler,mosin,cyny123,alexberger,ramtubes,berlintas,mijostyn,luckyx02,cal3713,bdp24,dougdeacon,tobes,jlin,richardkrebs, cd318,oregonpapa, etc, etc,

and as I told you there are hundreds of them with many with superior knowledge levls than ack or gentlemans of  his caliber at wbt.

" No contest "  and all willing to help.

R.

Dear @kps25sc : Of course is not a contest and I posted exactly that in wbt, here was only an example that the very high knowledge levels there that you think and insist on it was not enough or not showed in the several threads I participated.

Of course too that I'm a music lover and audiophile not only because I own 0ver 6K´LPs and attend very often to live events ( ovboiously not in this hard times. ).

"""   and very expensive system owners... ""

Yes but money even that's important and helps  to build a room/system the main issue with any audiophile is his true knowledge levels and skills, this is the main subject that with out the rigth levels that money  can't do it nothing. A good example is a gentleman that is an analog newcomer ( the  OP in this thread. ), he has money but almost zero analog knowledge levels and his to fast and different choices and changes " day by day " almost are were big mistakes.

Now, several owners of those wbt " expensive systems " not even turn its " face " to look humble cartridges as the ART 9XA that outperforms or at least at the same levels that their very expensive ones. Again, not adequated knowledge levels.

In the other side at one time all of us, no matters what, where audio new comers that some way or the other need it advice/support to learn and grow-up and in Agon comes several new comers looking for help but in forums as wbt when a new comer looks 300K-500K systems just were " intimidated " for and don't post there.

Audio forums are places to learn and support any kind of audiophile looking for help looking for advice. I know several of the gentlemans in wbt and several of their post helps for no body and helps to almost nothing. Humor is not the main reason exist audio forums.

As I said it was not who lost nothing not trying to help tomeny audiophuiles that need with " urgence " down there.

I always try to help and always I'm starigth in my coments/opinions no matters what and certainly no matters if one decided to banned from that forum.

My aim always is to share my first hand experiences that comes through many years and that comes through the learning lessons by several great audiophiles and MUSIC lovers with very high knowledge levels.

I'm not biased or entilted ( as many gentlemans think. ) to any audio subject, I'm totally biased with MUSIC and nothing more.

R.

Raul, audio is not a contest, nobody wins or looses and i have never claimed great knowledge, the absolute truths you are looking for are subjective qualities for most of us, we like something, or we don’t, sometimes measuring helps, but often you get subjective better sound with something that does not measure "the best ". I don’t see you writing much about music, it seems audio is a comparative/competitive sport for you. Some of us love the music, and don’t care how we connect to it, as long as we do, again probably why many people like tubes. Don’t bother with a list of knowledgeable people posting on Audiogon, i know there are some, but the general direction of this forum is on a much lower level than WBF, and there is nothing wrong with that, you like educating willing participants with you knowledge , this is a good niche for you. As for figuring out i am Lagonda, kudos to you, but i am probably the only one in the whole world with MBL speakers and Martin Logan Statement subwoofer towers that also uses a old Maplenoll turntable, how hard was it ?

Dear kps25sc : I don't know  why you insist in something you can't prove it. Tomorrow I will give you a list of Agoners where several of them have even higher knowledge levels than you and all at least at your not to high ( as you could think on you. ) knowledge levels too. 

In the mean time you obligate me to re-link what I already posted here. This link on a wbf interesting thread where the OP is one of the wbf " champs " with high knowledge levels that you said in your last post:

"  and a lot of them are manufacturers, reviewers and very expensive system owners. I consider David Karmeli the maker of the AS 2000 TT  "

Even I received wbf private emails by very well know gentlemans down there with a warning about not " touch " Carmeli because he is to agressive in some of his answers with some posts.
WBF has him as an " industry expert ":

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/thorens-goldmund-reference-turntables-european-expressions-of...

please read starting with the post 53 and look for his responses and mines.

What happened down there: first I did not learned nothing from him and his " touted " knowledge levels were in evidence that are not to high as people ( like you ) in wbf can think. At least was what he showed in that thread in that specific audio subject.

In the other side, you can read each single of the different threads where I posted and you can see that no gentleman there " defeated " my so so knowledge levels.  No I'm not brag about, facts speaks by it self. Btw, you partuicipated in some of those threads.

So, then what you are talking about and insit in something that  you can't prove it ( as I did it. ) then you are posting a lie/misunderstood/false or named as you wish.

I think that you can't diminish the gentlemans in Agon one and again when you have not the level to do it.  With out doubt ack could do it, one of the best down there and I know for sure that he ( even if could be true that it is not. ) never will post something similar not only about Agon but any other internet forum.

Did ask  your self how I took in count that you was lagonda?, no no one told me.


R.

Raul when i "like" a post in WBF, it can mean i agree, it can also mean the poster has made a good argument even if i don’t agree , i also generally "like" any post from people responding directly to any previous post from me or anything made with a good sense of humor. I am a very generous with my "likes" they don’t charge me extra for "likes". I certainly stand by my comment about the knowledge level on Audiogon it is generally much lower than what you see on WBF, here its all about this is better than that, and what budget equipment is a "giant killer", and a lot of characters with budget systems claiming ultimate knowledge about equipment they have read an article about. On WBF a lot of very polite people try to educate each other in a humorous way, and a lot of them are manufacturers, reviewers and very expensive system owners. I consider David Karmeli the maker of the AS 2000 TT a good friend, that has helped and guided me on many occasions and his TT is definitely my favorite Turntable, i have personally never heard a DD TT that delivered the magic the way a old school heavy platter air-bearing TT does, i like LT's too, David hates those, we don't agree on everything. I find an occasional thread on Audiogon that i find interesting, but in general i just don’t have the patience for the way things often progress here, we all have our preferences !

Dear kps25sc :  ""   them to have the same patience as on Audiogon where the level of knowledge is a lot lower.  ""

That's what you posted in wbt, yes you are Lagonda and not disclosed when I named here, pity for say the least.

In that wbt thread you " posted " /agree with what Bazelio posted:


""  Raul, please continue to come to WBF and inject your viewpoints. The "ad print" (not) was relevant to the discussion and very interesting to read. At times, WBF tends to "rathole" off topic in its threads. Typically the thread starter (or tima) requests order and folks fall in line. Don't take it the wrong way or let it dissuade you from providing unique perspective. Feel free to open new threads as spin offs to start new conversation to avoid derailing existing threads as well. That's all.

 Reactions:howiebrou, mountainjoe, Lagonda and 2 others


Btw, those " reactions " are people that are in agreement with that post. Is the way wbt function about.

Your " reaction " to my post against what you posted about that Agon member to low knowledge levels was an : agreement with my answer.

In the other side your amps are SS not tubes and seems to me that your up-dated/improved Maplenol TT is superior to the 2000 that you like it, this one has almost the same problem than the vintage MS ones.

R.

Raul, the real magic in audio happens somewhere between listening and measuring, that is why so many audiophiles love tube phonos, for the engaging sound !

Btw, I provoke the wbt " banned " on purpose and I let to know it to gentlemans that through the wbt inside private emails gave me their support to follow posting and told that I don’t wanted anymore to stay where the owner is " hunting me " and few days latter I posted something to and that’s how things happened.

What actually happened is Raul violated the WTB posting rules (by making personal attacks on other posters), that after having been banned 7 years prior. His re-reinstatement lasted about 2 weeks.

lagonda: "" as on Audiogon where the level of knowledge is a lot lower. ""

I can see that your prefered Phono stage is the I/O. I already posted about.

R.

Dear @kps25sc : I don’t promote " your..SS phono stage ".

SS did not captured my attention " at the time ".

I started my audio life with Japan/USA SS electronics ( Crown, Pioneer, Sansui, Luxman, Denon, Mckintosh, etc, etc ), then and due that I started to read " underground magazynes " I switched to tubes because reading on those magazynes " convince me " that no other alternative can outperforms it: at least is what said it there.

Years latter and after I learned I returned to SS electronics but now not because audio magazynes " high experts opinions " but because I learned by first hand experiences and no return to tubes never again.

The MM adventure was a re-discovery of a decent cartridge alternative that because those " underground magazynes " was a " sacrilege " to listen through any non LOMC cartridge.
This adventure was and is truly learning and I can tell you that 2-4 of those hundreds of vintage MM/MI/IM/electrect cartridges are good enough to compete not with your LPS but even with higher quality LOMC cartridges.
Today the 70% of my analog listening is through top LOMC cartridges but always I left mounted/set up the top of the top MM/MI cartridge because it’s really good and a pleasure to listen its little different sound signature. What’s wrong with all that?.

Learning is the audio name of the game. Not to stay sticked for ever because as in the day by day life everything is changing and sometimes for the better and that’s part of my day hunting and always willing to learn from any gentleman even from new comers.

I took those " long opinions " from other gentlemans when necessary with the subject I’m talking about when other opinions coincide with mine or that are from by point of view came.

Btw, I provoke the wbt " banned " on purpose and I let to know it to gentlemans that through the wbt inside private emails gave me their support to follow posting and told that I don’t wanted anymore to stay where the owner is " hunting me " and few days latter I posted something to and that’s how things happened.

Curious, here in Ago moderators are unbiased gentlemans that do not post in the forum and in wbt exist " hundreds " of moderators that their main characteristic is that are gentlemans that post and post really often in the wbt forums: they are audiophiles, audio distributors or the owners. All those gentlemans are heavy biased in favor or against several things and even they have audiophiles under " their protection ": untoachables. There when some one " cry " because one word in a post that post is deleted or reported to the owner whom just banned that gentleman.
Here you can cry all what you want it but if any one don’t insult directly with a untrue insult you can’t be banned.
In wbt lagonda " insult " all agoners ( including you. ) when posted that " low knowledge levels here " and you know what no single Agoner but me ( and there are many Agoners posting in wbt ) puts a " stop " to lagonda. Where was a moderator about in wbt?

I posted in other forums, important ones, where on purpose you have not some one " behind you " like my first hand experieces in wbt .

Btw, I respect your opinion even that I disagree with many aspects of what you posted to me. In the other side, I read that your dream TT is the AS2000: really?

R.

@rauliruegas 
You don't "distress" me, you irritate sometimes Raul. This is a thread about tube phono stages, and you have come here to provoke and promote your holy grail SS phonostage ! It is your usual modus operandi, you like to promote some idea or concept of perfect sound that has captured your attention at the time, like your long fascination with MM cartridges. Often using long quotes from other people. You always make claims of absolute truth, and then change your mind a year or two later, it just gets tiresome. Discussing with you is like fighting windmills, you have unlimited time, and little sense of proportions. When you repeatedly get banned from forums, you should start wondering why !

In the other side the " tale " about those " tick and pop " is just that a tale that can't be proved it happens.

Sure it can. I have to admit though the first time I encountered this it had me floored. That was a bit over 30 years ago. Since then I've seen it plenty of times.


There's plenty of sound engineering reason why this happens. The electrical resonance between the LOMC cartridge and the tonearm cable can be a peak of **30dB**. If the cartridge is making 0.5mV, this means that the peak could be half a volt! Many phono sections that can handle a LOMC cartridge will simply be overloaded by that much input. In solid state preamps in particular, the RFI can be rectified at the base of the very first stage of gain, resulting in a burst of noise for a very short period of time- a tick or a pop results from the circuit being overloaded.


This isn't hard to prove; we can inject a 0.5V RF signal at 1 or 2MHz into a preamp and see what happens. Often it isn't pretty. The idea that somehow this 'can't be proved it happens' is ridiculous on its face.

I've never heard the atmasphere phono product (I heard a set of their mono amps decades ago and liked them) but note it also uses balanced inputs. I reckon it is a fully balanced product like the Accuphase.

@ivanj It is, and has the distinction of being the first balanced line preamp made for home use back in 1989. People don't think about it as so weird now, but back then people looked at the MP-1 crosseyed because it used XLR connections for the phono input.

@rsf507 If I remember correctly, Scott had said that the price for the Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Phono Amp has remained the same since 2013 at roughly $9000. This is just another testament to the great character of Scott Franklin... to keep the price of admission the same for this fantastic piece for the last 8 years, all while making continuous improvements! Especially when you see other manufacturers increasing their prices every year, outpacing the rate of inflation by leaps and bounds.

The current Wavestream Deluxe is actually in it’s Level 5 Reference iteration. Levels 1-3 were 5 tube configurations offering 60 dB of gain. The upgrade to Level 4 changed from 5 tubes to a 6 tube circuit using 4 x 6DJ8 & 2 x 12AX7. He said that there are several benefits over the previous 5-tube circuit....

1. Reduced crosstalk between channels gives more precise localization of images in complex material. The crosstalk was due to the shared 12AX7 in the 5 tube circuit.

2. Increased headroom allows bigger peak inputs without compression or harshness.

3. High-frequency bandwidth is extended to 50kHz. This improves leading edge transients (high-frequency detail, speed and air).

4. The output impedance has been reduced. This helps to cancel the adverse effects of cable capacitance and amplifier impedance. By the same means, the load presented by the RIAA network is isolated from the outside world.

5. Upgraded signal coupling caps provide better definition and a more natural tonal balance.

6. Both power supply regulators have been improved to optimize transient response.

I believe he said that the previous 5 tube units can be upgraded to the Level 4, six tube circuit with an upgraded audio board, numerous parts and power supply upgrades for about $2850. You will want to confirm this with Scott.

The current Level 5 Reference also now has an outboard power supply which I believe reduces the already impressive noise floor even lower.

I’m really excited and looking forward to having this as a major part of my vinyl system.

Wishing you all the very best of health, love and happiness!
Don

@no_regrets can I inquire what the price is of the Wavestream Kinetic Level 5 Reference phono unit?

Dear @kps25sc " You can’t contain your distress an took advantage to post about me.

You know what, it’s not the first forum I was banned but do it a favor because I don’t know which is your moniker down there.

Take a look to some of my posts down there like:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/thorens-goldmund-reference-turntables-european-expressions-of...

and read the posts 53 and 60 in a dialogue with one of the top " untoachable leaders " in WBT.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/to-sut-or-not-to-sut.31106/page-2

posts: 25 and 27.


https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/van-den-hul-colibri-grand-cru.30507/page-11

post: 201 and 205

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/van-den-hul-colibri-grand-cru.30507/page-12

225 and in the 227 where Lagonda said that at Agon the knowledge levels are to low in comparison to WBT, read carefully my answer and you will see there the Lagonda approval: go figure !


https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-sound-of-analog-the-sound-of-digital.31038/page-16

These were my first posts at WBT: 315 and 316 followed by

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-sound-of-analog-the-sound-of-digital.31038/page-17

325 and you know hat: in my first " day " down there the WBT founder, audio dealer and moderator deleted one of my posts and posted at once this warning ( in my first day. ): 326.


Now if you read what I posted ( I posted in over several audio subjects. ) please let me know what is wrong with because several gentlemans ( I receive their privates mails. ) told me way different things against your " trolling " adjective you use in your post.

I can tell you one thing: I was not who losted when the founder banned me no matters what you think because facts/posts are down there as the WBT way of thinking of me.

Btw, I’m not a " gold coin " for every one can loves me and I know that but this is a free world.

Thank’s for your post.

R.

Dear @syntax  : Seems that you like masochism, always return for more but this time just re-read my posts to you in this thread for you can increment your frustration levels that you love it !

I'm always willing to give you what you like but not this time. Was enough.

Enjoy your day.

R.

Anyway you slice it... (whether it be pure tubed, SUT/tube, FET/tube, and yes even with some solid state devices, etc... ) I truly believe that we should try and remember that we, as vinyl lovers, should all feel thankful and blessed that we have so many great and talented designers who are able to provide us with a plethora of fantastic options that are available to us at so many different price points that it allows us all to have the opportunity to be able to enjoy the great sonics that vinyl can provide :)

As to the question of what is the "Best Cost No Object ’Tube’ Phono", I don’t understand how any one person would be able to know the answer to that question without being able to hear each and every option out there, in their own system, trying to keep all the many variables to a minimum. Likewise, I do not understand how anyone would be able to categorically deny the worthiness of a component that they may have never even heard in their own system, simply because of a certain capacitor, wire, passive/active device, etc... that is being employed. I’ve always believed that the worthiness of a component is a combination of the entire circuit design and the sum of all the parts working together seamlessly vs just one sole aspect of the component in question... not to mention the importance of system synergy.

However, I believe that we can all certainly give "suggestions" as to what we would consider as being "contenders" to being the best... as I do love reading about peoples experiences with brands that I haven’t had the opportunity to be able to hear myself :) We are all individuals, with our own set of ears, with our own unique way of hearing sounds. We all have our own set of listening preferences and sonic priorities. What is important to one, may not be to another. But, what we all "mostly" have in common is the love of music and being able to reproduce that in our homes :)

I have no idea what phono stage could be exalted so high as to carry the Title of being The Best Cost No Object. However, in the spirit of offering a "contender" to the list, I would suggest the Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Phono Amp. I have admired Scott Frankland’s audio design work (phono, preamps, amplifiers) for decades but was never in a financial position to afford them. However, over the last couple of years, I have suffered 5 unexplained strokes and have recently been diagnosed with two cancerous tumors. I have come to realize that we may not get any mulligan’s in this game of life.

So, on Feb 17, I placed a deposit with Scott for his Wavestream Kinetic Level 5 Reference phono amp. His phono amp has always been on my "bucket list". It is an all tube design currently using (2 x 12AX7, 4 x 6DJ8); with extremely low noise ( I believe with the external power supply, noise is below 1uV (one-millionth of a volt ); providing 3 front panel selectable inputs = two MC at 62 dB of gain (without the use of SUT’s or FETS) with a useful cartridge range of 0.2mV to 1.2mV and one MM output at 42dB (you are able to choose your MM gain or you can have 3 MC ); having both balanced and RCA inputs and outputs; adjustable loading available on the back panel via custom loading plugs; and an essentially flat RIAA EQ curve within one tenth of a dB (.1dB) from 3 Hz to 40 Khz. *** The above specs are from the best of my recollection - if you have interest, please consult with Scott Frankland to confirm. He is wonderful to communicate with. ***

I have not received it yet, but I can certainly say that I am very excited to be able to hear it in my system. Scott is not only an excellent and talented designer, but is also a true gentleman and what I believe to be an asset to the audiophile community.

Wishing you all the very best of health, love and happiness!
Don

You really have to hear Allnic.

A broken record playing backwards ! At least he stays away from WBF when he can post on Audiogon. I'm surprised how much trolling he gets away with here, meanwhile this post will probably be removed. Go figure !

Raúl is like a broken record.  Best Audiogon time was when he got banned...... I guess, he was so desperate in his real life he begged the mods to come back...
Always his “religion”, his “knowledge” which isn’t’ a knowledge to move something in a better direction and the difference now is based on his age ( he is high in his age and his ability to listen and to understand is very limited. It never was good but now it is replaced with promoting data sheets from whoever.....
“knowledge” transfer from Mexico .... a pain for brain....

Dear @issak121212  : First than all it was not an attack to that phono stage, just an audiophile opinion.

Obviously it's a phono satge, it handled the inverse RIAA eq.

What is totally BS are those  " paper on oil " caps .

About silver wire what I'm trying to say is that's it's not something to " die for " when I use even in power cables. Silver wires is very good choice any where we want use it.

Beautiful sound is the one that "  meet the needs of the listener. ". That's your opinion, mine is the one that meets MUSIC reproduction needs. So a " little " different.
SS can do that in a way better than tubes when we are talking of phonolinepreamps. We not nonly not need tubes for that but we have to avoid tubes on that specific and very special application/job.

I know very well the Audio Note Ongaku On that I listened in my own system several times. As a fact over 10 years I was a tube lover ( from somete years now I'm a MUSIC lover and that's why I choosed SS to do it. There is no return. ) and listened/owned from Jolida to Audio Note, you can name it and can be sure that I listened.
Now, everything the same SS or tube designs but in special with phono stages balanced is always a superior alternative.

Yes, my mistake because I took a very fast look inside the unit and I did not see those FETs. Sorry.

Of course I need to learn more and I'm always willing to do it. I know very well the FM Acoustics quality level performance ( listened many times as a fact FM was my reference in phono stages. ) and is obvious that you prefered your own system but that is a subjective and not objective opinion and as you I have no time to go deeper in this issue. Btw, syntax is not a good reference not for FM Acoustics and for other audio subjects. You can read my answers to him in this thread.



Btw, M.Huber is very emphatic not use any other cables but the PIT by FMA.

Here what Huber says about balanced phono stage design :

By design, all phono cartridges are balanced sources. The term "balanced" describes a system in which the audio signal is transferred via two shielded symmetrical conductors, neither of which is connected to ground (see Fig. 1). (For general information on balancing consult Technical Bulletin No. 31). In an unbalanced system one of the signal paths is carried by the shield or is exposing the signal to the ground carrier. Because of this, interference signals such as hum, RF, noise etc. are picked up by the shield and can thereby enter the audio circuitry. The lower the signal level and/or the more ambient interference present, the greater is the danger of degradation allowed by an unbalanced (single ended) interface. To this day the interconnection of phono cartridges has been done "unbalanced" (a few pseudo-balanced phono preamps are available):


ANY DISTURBANCES THAT MANAGE TO PENETRATE THE GROUNDED SHIELD WILL ACT UPON THE TWO ANTI-PHASE SIGNALS IN THE SAME WAY. AS INTERFERENCE REJECTION IS OPTIMAL THE COMMON MODE SIGNALS ARE CANCELLED. CHASSIS AND CHASSIS AND TONEARM SYSTEM GROUND

 Fig. 1 THE INPUT STAGE OF THE FM 223 HAS AN EXTREMELY HIGH IMMUNITY ( 100 dB!) TO ANY NOISE AND INTERFERENCE THAT MAY BE PRESENT IN THE SHIELD AND GROUND SYSTEM.



Considering the extremely-low signal levels of cartridges, it becomes obvious that a true balanced signal interface to the preamplifier is a huge improvement over presently available designs. Unfortunately, such an elegant system was always faced with a number of technical challenges. In the FM 223 these limitations have been overcome entirely. The FM 223 is the only phono preamplifier which assure true balanced interconnection of cartridges*. Fig. 1 shows a balanced interface. Such a balanced interconnection of the phono cartridge has major advantages: - increased dynamics - higher headroom - elimination of non-musical signals (interferences) - lower hum and noise - etc. The signal lines from the cartridge are directly connected to the true balanced input stages and have no connection to the shield. Thus, the shield can function optimally, conducting all interference signals directly to ground. The ground, of course, must be separate from the electric ground of the circuits (in many other so-called "balanced" products this is not the case). *True balancing requires more than just XLR connectors on the preamplifier's inputs and outputs. It is the interference rejection ratio) that defines the accuracy of balancing and with it the suppression of disturbing non-audio signals. This is one of the characteristics that exemplifies the tremendous difference between the FM 223 and other so-called "balanced" phono stages.



Thank's to take your time with your post. I will wait that your unit be finished to look for those main specs.

Btw, why hybrid if you are a tube believer?, S.Farkland designed the all tube WaveStream Kinetics phono and for tubes it's an achievement.

R.

Dear  rauliruegas;
I am going to answer your attack on Thoress Phono Enhancer & myself;

1. you said Sic *   Thöress is in reality a parametric equalizer with many faults no matters what the owners post in sites as WBF and the like.

This  statement is absolutely wrong ( in fact is total rubbish). it is definitely, Phono Stage with highest calibre , with the facility to    offer  more versatile on-the-fly adjustment of the phono equalization curve. There is 3 rotatory knobs You can leave them in default  (clearly marked) positions to use a standard RIAA equalization and never even touch them. If you want to change the sound using this facility, you would not degrade the sound , as, it is using a net of resistors ( in this case the ultimate resistors AN TANT SILVER)  & at any balance or adjustment , only 3 resistors , which , is the same for the standard RIAA.

2. A.  * Sic* Audio Note silver parts are not guarantee of anything about quality level performance.

I agree with this statement. 

   B. * Sic*  but only a " candies " for poor knowledge level people, same of those " paper on oil " caps that were used in the radios 70 years ago and the Tantalum named. All those are a kind of BS marketing and nothing else

I found this statement to be a rather general & only come out from people with big mouth  & lack finesse in sharing thoughts & opinion . in my view , it is total BS.

3. * Sic*  About the silver wire I can tell you that in my system all the electronics external power wires connected to the electrical source are KCAG by Kimber Kable. I’m not talking inside the electronics but the power cable

So, It is okay for you to use Silver Power cables & in this case you are right. Or you are suggesting that silver is only for power cables. I do not know what , I can say. But words like hypocrisy & / or BS.

4. *Sic*  """ you must have a valve or tube in the signal ( in at least one component) to get this beautiful sound """

This is actually not only my opinion, but, opinion of some of the best known names in Audiophile Community e.g, Mike Freeman, has the same opinion

 *Sic* Which beautiful sound?

I am not going to waste your time & mine on this subject. However in short a beautiful or good or fantastic sound , whatever , adjective you like to use, is the sound , which , meet the needs of the listener.

5. *Sic*  First mistake in the unit you are talking about is that is not a true balanced design but single ended

Wow, what you are talking about here. Some of the best sounds are only single ended e.g, Audio note. Balanced or single ended depend on the design , its execution , including the parts .
This sweeping statement , usually mean... 

6. *Sic*  All what you posted is only bla,bla, bla. and we music lover/audiophiles needs some facts so where are the specs at least of the inverse RIAA eq. deviation and noise levels as frequency response.

The product is not fully built yet ( only few weeks for final version) . Prototype , with the basic components sounded Fantastic. the specs will be available , I expect after the final production.

7.  *Sic* Certainly something wrong with its other designs because in the new one decided for hybrid one.

Thoress Phono Enhance is Hybrid Design from the beginning.
MK1, MK2 MK3 & the new Silver Signature are all Hybrid Design. Please, check your facts , before attack.

8.  *Sic* 75K for that equalizer? come on and ve serious.

Well , you are right to question this price. However, the cost of any finished audio component , which is not a mass production, involve the price of design, components, manufacturing costs ...etc. if the cost of components is 1000US$ , it usually , translate to 8 to 10 K, RRP
The Price of resistors & Silver Caps is more than 25,000 plus US$. still ,all silver wires . all phono input ( 11 pair ) pure silver.
8 StillPoins Ultra 6 ( in Germany , they Cost more than 10000 US $. please, do the Math

9. *Sic*  Btw, do you read the FM Acoustics link I posted ? if not do it you a favor and do it and please download its data sheet at the end of the link pages. We all need to learn, including me.

I agree,  We all need to learn, including you

FM is a brilliant Company with , long history of excellence.
I listened always to FM System in Munich Hi Fi Show, 2018 & 2019 ( Marriott hotel) 7 although it sounded good, I preferred my own system. I know it can sound better , as many Hi fi Shows do not produce the best sound. please , see , the thread in this discussion by syntax2. *SIC*  I got a invitation from an Audiophile to listen to his FM Acoustics System... 223 Phono, the biggest preamp and FM mono amps linked to Grand Utopia Speakers. Turntable was Techdas AF1, Graham and Techdas Cart.
It was not a pleasure to listen to. Very analytic, aggressive, pale ....far away from a real thing reproduction. But each his own .
I am sure, it might sound better if he uses  KCAG by Kimber Kable as power cable
Enough said
Fawzy

Dear friends : Overall there is no single advantage on tube alternative over SS good designs specially with phono stages that's the worst place to use tubes and for very good reasons. 

In the other side the " tale " about those " tick and pop " is just that a tale that can't be proved it happens.

Please read this thread from where I learned why is only a tale/false/misinformation:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/a-question-of-loading


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

C-47 Accuphase. Balanced and single ended inputs. Adjust loading etc. from your listening seat. Its predecessor was the closest device we have measured to a SWWG.

I've never heard the atmasphere phono product (I heard a set of their mono amps decades ago and liked them) but note it also uses balanced inputs. I reckon it is a fully balanced product like the Accuphase.

If you are afraid of RF and EM noise have Benchmark Media make you up a set of their (balanced) cables. Take a look at the video on their site about their cables versus regular cables concerning noise penetration. I'm sure they would work with the atmasphere product also.

Dear @bluewolf  : Good for you that through your post discharged your  anger against me. No problem.

Look, in all my audio life my main attitude aim to help all kind of audiophiles through what I learned from other audiophiles and through my first hand experiences. 
I have respect for any human been even that gentlemans as you could think the other way around.

I'm truly direct/straigth in what I say trying to help but if  ( example. ) I told you through a post or at your place that an item in the room/system is not up to the task I not only tell you something is wrong but why is wrong and when I listen the other part answer sometimes the one that was wrong was me and when this happens or someone post here that I'm wrong far away to been angry I really appreciated that and ask to him why I'm wrong and this manner I can fix my mistake kearn and improve my audio/music knowledge/skills levels.

I will never told you everything is fine with your system only to be  " frendly " because if I do that way then I'm not helping you but only that attitude goes against you.

No one likes that other person puts his finger where " damage " the more our each one self steem.

About you phono stage unfortunatelly is not a good one and certainly can't justify its price. 
That unit is a copy of a very old French design the (Anzai) SRPP phono preamp, pity for say the least. The gentleman from where you buy/manufacture in that design was a copy-cat.

Never mind, is only for your records. Enjoy it.

R.

I have loved this hobby for decades and 2 years ago finally got my system to where I feel that the failings do not distract me from the wonder of reproducing music in my home at such a level that I can greatly enjoy the experience. I have every now and then wanted to give something back to others who may benefit from my experience and to share our common passion but have not been looking on and participating on Audiogon for a while. And this thread reminds me of why. One person, a legend in his own mind, comes on and preaches and condemns from on high, with no basis for his self anointed authority, and with so much pointed arrogance and aggression upsetting many.

I believe wholeheartedly in what I have achieved but when communicating one needs to be modest, respectful, open to other's opinions as we can all learn and sometimes realise that there is a better path to travel, and willing to tolerate other opinions - all in the spirit of friendship and sharing in what should be an enjoyable hobby.
Which unfortunately leads me to question why one would post and subject oneself to @rauliruegas .

And just to raise the hackles so that I can hear the screech from on high, I love my Acoustical Systems OMNIGON!

The OP is nowhere to be found

Likely listening to music.

The OP is nowhere to be found. Maybe he is thinking about getting RTR deck and whatever master tape dubs he can find. Well, at least he should be seeking out direct to disc recorded performances.
With unlimited funds I would do what I previously said - I would ask someone to make me a custom phono stage or at least standard design but absolutely very best parts.

@mijostyn IIRC the MAT02 used in that circuit is nla. But I think you can make a MAT12 work. Most of the frame-grid triode family (includes the 6DJ8/6922) tend to have microphonic problems. So you really have to screen them.

@lewm , The RTP3C is a great design. I have a weakness for 6922's.
Would be a lot of fun to build! one.  http://www.vacuumstate.com/index.dna?rubrik=8&lang=2

Btw, atmasphere I don’t care about class D amps. I was very specific about: design of SS phonolinepreamps.

Of course you don't - that would not help your argument. The bigger point here is the need to be right for the sake of it, rather than being factual. While you may 'not care about class D amps' the simple fact that we can make one that is of our own design, and that we can get a patent in the field, is enough for anyone to know that if we wanted to make a solid state phono section, we could and with ease.

*****************Back on track:

One advantage tubes have over solid state in phono preamps in particular is that of overload due to the electrical resonance caused by the cartridge and tonearm cable (inductance and capacitance in parallel; please ask me if you don't know what I'm talking about here). In solid state circuits, if this resonance goes into excitation (oscillation) the resulting RFI can overload the input circuit. This can result in a tick or a pop, and is part of the reason that many people think that ticks and pops are endemic to LPs. 


But when a producer makes a recording on LP, he gets what is called a 'test pressing' which he listens to to see if its alright. A form accompanies the test pressing, and the producer has to sign off on it, approving the test, saying that the stamper is good and the LP production can proceed. One of the things producers listen for is ticks and pops in the LP. So when they sign off, its on something that shouldn't have any ticks or pops.


If your phono section is immune to the RFI generated by a LOMC cartridge and the tonearm cable, its common to hear entire LP sides with no ticks or pops at all (unless the LP clearly has a scratch). (For this reason, I frequently get asked at shows if I'm playing a CD- I just point to the turntable.)


This immunity comes from four things- preventing the RFI from getting in, making sure that each stage can't oscillate (with tubes or discrete devices, a 'stopping resistor' is used for this purpose), the circuit has enough high frequency overload margin that the RFI can't overload it (keeping in mind that the RFI is a peak of 20-30dB) and finally that the circuit does not rectify the RF energy.


With tube circuits, if a tube is at the input directly (as opposed to an SUT) the RFI won't be likely to overload it. It might send it into oscillation if a stopping resistor isn't present, but if its there, then overload won't occur.


(A fundamental difference between solid state and tube phono sections is where the overload occurs if a strong signal is applied to the input of the phono. With solid state, the overload can occur right at the input. With tubes, its likely one or two stages downstream.)

Normally a 'cartridge loading resistor' is used to detune the RF resonance of the LOMC cartridge and tonearm cable. Eliminating RFI from audio circuits can affect how they sound; this is part of why you hear differences with loading vs no loading (although it can affect tracking too). But if you have a tube preamp, its far more common that loading simply won't be needed (SUTs excepted- that's a different set of conditions). Its much harder to get a solid state phono section to behave in this regard since semiconductors have diode junctions in them, and these junctions can rectify RF energy. For this reason, solid state phono sections that don't need cartridge loading are less common than they are with tube phono sections. If the RFI is rectified, this sits in the noise floor- and because of its structure, prevents the ear from penetrating the noise floor to extract more detail (natural hiss is one of the very few exceptions to the ear's masking rule).


If your preamp has loading options built-in for LOMC cartridges, its a good bet that the designer didn't deal with the RF resonance. If he had, the performance would be better.


So while tubes might be a bit noisier than solid state overall, you can more easily have less ticks and pops which to me is preferable. And as long as the phono noise is less than that of the cartridge tracking a silent groove on the LP, you won't hear it. That's very doable with cartridges of 0.2mV, which is about as low as cartridge outputs go with very few exceptions.  

Dear @inna : You are rigth but I was not who started but him who attack me telling: take your trolling.... and many other things.

I have a voice too so I need it to gave an anwser.

Btw, atmasphere I don’t care about class D amps. I was very specific about: design of SS phonolinepreamps. Come on 2 audiophiles beats you in your own design in that SS first gain stage and your next statement is false:

" no-one .... or has ever seen, right? "

well you are wrong you only need to read my response to syntax by coincidence one of the gentlemans that beats your design is an owner of the Essential and an Agoner too. Btw, no misinformation from me but you ! !  Tha's why I need to post about.
Never mind and as I said please don’t read my posts or not post refering tome. Peace.

R.

It's not me who needs to show it but you that are an audio manufacturer and I know you can't do it because you have not the adequated knowledge levels with SS designs.

So I've been making all tube preamps for over 30 years, with two patents in that field, just got another patent a year ago in the field of class D amplifiers, which generally speaking are solid state and employ opamps :)  ... We're right now building a run of our beta production class D amps, which are not based on anyone else's design or modules. Just so you know, there's quite a bit of math that goes into making something like that work properly (google 'oscillation criteria'), far more than building a solid state phono section and you're trying to say that you know what knowledge I possess and what I don't. Sheesh.

@inna

Let us continue the discussion.

This thread is about tube phono sections, right? Not a defunct 3160 solid state thingy that no-one can get or has ever seen, right? I do high end audio because I like it, and not for any other reason- that's why I'm here. I'm fine with people not agreeing with me- you and I have not seen eye to eye in the past apparently; that sort of thing is normal on the web. Unlike Raul you don't seem to derail threads on a regular basis or make the thread all about you. But Raul makes false statements, he makes personal attacks and if you don't call him out, other people might think that what he says is real.


Do you think his misinformation should go uncorrected? Because we can do that, but this thread won't be about tube phono sections anymore...

Why don't you both stop this infantile nonsense ? Let us continue the discussion.

atmasphere : "  then sit down and shut up "

Whom do you think you are? you are only another agon member and nothing more.

""   if you can't get out there and show the rest of us how its done ""

It's not me who needs to show it but you that are an audio manufacturer and I know you can't do it because you have not the adequated knowledge levels with SS designs. I posted that exist, at least , two humble audiophiles that their modifications to your unit at the SS input stage outperformed your design easily ! !   Go figure: just audiophiles ! ! 

You live in the average audio world and nothing more and your frustration to can't aspire to be at the very top with names as FM Acoustics and the like is what makes you post again and again against me but you know what:

the frustrated man is you not me. Every time you do the same against me you make my day because I just confirm that your frustration levels goes high and high.

This is a free forum but perhaps the best you can do is not read my posts and this way you will not distress that always is very bad for your health. Of course that you always can return " for more ".

R.

Dear @tubegroover  : Why stay quiet and suddenly you have a " voice " to post something about.

Arrogance?, far away from there. I only post true facts that maybe you don't like it.

" "  The diversity of opinion and experience is what makes this hobby satisfying. " "

I can see that you can't honor your statement because my posts are my opinions.

R.

I have experience with 

tron seven. that's ok very decent 8000++ usd preamp and phonostage. 

zesto ultra. I think better more setting capability. it's used in million dollar system locally. and sound awesome.

everything comes down to system integration so.. can't really say it's the best but more like more loading  options better internal stepup transformer will be more important. I heard horrible examples and awesome examples of both of the phonostage.. for what's its worth 

Thanks Ralph, you echo my sentiments. I absolutely detest audio arrogance and absolutism, so unbecoming but even more, irritating. The diversity of opinion and experience is what makes this hobby satisfying. 

Raul, perhaps take your trolling elsewhere. In case you read it, this thread is about tube phono sections, not some solid state unknown as you seem to always push; the one that you have that no-one else can get; that is a cheap junk store technique. Show some class.


You have no engineering expertise by your own admission; for you to declare what knowledge that someone else has whom you've not even met is gross hubris and simply absurd on several levels. You keep talking about your 3160 thingy but its obvious you didn't have anything to do with its design.


Put another way, if you can't get out there and show the rest of us how its done, then sit down and shut up.

@atmasphere , obviously you are way wrong about. Please do not brought your high frustration here and against me.

I already know that you have not the knowledge and skills levels to design a SS unit that not outperform the 3160 but not even it and certainly your designs can’t compete with or with FM Acoustics or Gryphon or any other top SS design.
Even an audiophile that owns your phonolinepreamp makes modification at the SS input stage that outperformed yours one and he is not a SS designer or manufactuerr of audio items.

As the technology you are sticked with you are just archaic. It’s what you showed and shows because is from where comes your way of lif$. I don’t care what you do and I’m posting because you are wrong when refers in that way of my person.

Stay calm, enjoy what the life give you each day. Let your frustrations in home . Do it a favor and please don't come back for more by me. I really don't like what I post here but you obligate to do it. Have fun, is better or maybe this is the way that you have fun.

R.

Have you heard the Everest ? Must be very powerful engaging sound with the right amps. "Stacks of ML-2's"...How would Lamm compare to that ?
But, this thread is mostly about super phono stages. What about this ? Would it make sense to go even higher in Allnic line or perhaps in some other brand ?

@lewm side question, which 12at7 you are using on your mp-1 the stock? Have you tried the 12at7-z by any chance?

@inna- the real step forward wouldn’t be the amps on the bass it would be to use horn loaded bass. And for that Avantgarde charges a couple Porsches-- not the cheap ones, either.
That’s why, if and when, I may look elsewhere-- I don’t have room for the Trio in my room anyway. Maybe the Everest. But, then I have to bi-amp and that raises another host of issues in terms of amps. David Karmeli has done it using the older M2 JBL and stacks of ML2s. The Lamm amp isn’t crazy money used. But, I’m not there yet. I do like Avantgarde it’s jut that the prices Euro to dollar as Jim Smith has said, don’t make it easy. I think he quit distributing the line, so he said, b/c he couldn’t do it and lower the price sufficiently to make it attractive. The Duo Mezzo is over 65K. For that kind of money, I’d want more even though I can get an accommodation. We’ll see. I’m not in need yet. Just anticipating that’s the next thing I’ll need to change as the system ages....

Btw, I named my personal unit Essential 3180 because it has at least two important upgrades from the 3160. All those customers are satisfied with.

And you know what: unfortunatelly you will never have the experience to listen/own the 3180. You can't even imagine those quality high levels. Such is life.

This is a textbook example of trolling. 'No-one can get what I got and its the best'... Sheesh.


I see people that run junk shops do exactly this sort of thing.

Thomas Mayer (vinylsavor.com) has 3 models single ended tube LCR (10K, 14k and 23K euros full silver) and 2 models fully differential LCR (28K and 75K euros full silver) phono preamplifier.  Each are custom build to order.  All his LCR transformers are Lundahl and Lundahl silver.  I heard the his entry level once while I was in France quite some time ago, and could not compare it to anything then.

Dear @whart  : This was my mix-up, sorry:
"   may eventually change out my Avantgarde Duos "

My friend Guillermo has in a second room  ( like you ) the 57s and yes .the mid-range  is something to listen it, unfortunatelly both extreme frequency ranges are not at the same level. My friend uses an extrenal tweeter/supertweeter.

R.

I see. They just want to play the way they were designed to play.
Your horns are Lamm tube powered but subs are SS powered, I understand. How would it all sound if subs were driven by tubes as well, I wonder ? And how many tubes would it take?

@inna-- been there. I've had this pair since the mid-70s, set up at one point as a mini-HQD system. I boxed them in 1990 when I bought a pair of Crosby-Quads. I promised myself that at some point I would restore the 57s and when I moved, I had the opportunity. They got shipped off to Electrostatic Solutions, and when he finished his work, they were shipped to me in Texas. I put them back on the stock feet. I'm good with them- this is how I first used them back in the '70s, and learned to listen through this speaker. It's cool to have owned gear for almost 50 years that is still delivering the goods. Not a speaker meant for all purposes, but for what it does well, it's a classic. If I want to go big, I use the bigger system upstairs. That thing can now deliver serious bass, coupled with the horns mid and top and I'm happy. 
My experience in the past was not satisfactory in adding woofers. I suspect Maggie bass panels might work, I know some have advocated open baffle designs, or other types of bass augmentation. The old Quad can give you the impression of big bass given the size of the panel, but it isn't terribly deep and won't play loud. It isn't meant for Sabbath, but it's great for jazz, voice, folk, etc.