Just to backtrack (i.e., interrupt) for a sec,Imitation. The highest form of flattery.
Badly recorded albums needing upgrading
My new music system is in place, fairly well burnt in, and speaker placement and other tweaks are coming along. In the process I’ve been learning how much variation there is in the quality of both CD and vinyl recordings. This range in quality was not apparent on my old equipment.
For example, as I go through my old records, I’ve noticed a couple of favorites that are terribly recorded. A well known sub-par recording, Eric Clapton’s (Derek and the Dominoes) "Layla and Other Love Songs" is virtually not listenable. The Stones "Let It Bleed" I’ve had to replace with a Japaneses SACD as Jagger’s vocals sounded like he recorded them with a garbage can over his head. That SACD does sound considerably better, although the vocals on "Gimme Shelter still sound muffled. After some research on site and elsewhere, I just ordered another Japanese SACD of Layla out of the myriad available, which the reviewers said made Layla at least listenable.
Here’ the obvious problem. Both replacements were expensive as CD’a and records go, and I only want to spend that kind or resources on absolute favorite records. I am filling in the rock and roll and R&B portion of my record and CD collection of artists ranging from the Beatles up through the Sex Pistols. Are there any other well known albums like "Let It Bleed" or "Layla" I should avoid, or might already have, that will need to be purchased or bought again in upgraded formats. I’m not asking about obscure groups, but instead more well known artists like the Dead, Hendrix, Aretha Franklin, anything Motown, Janis Joplin, Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Bowie, Roxy Music, The Clash, Talking Heads, etc.
I’ve also been purchasing a lot of vintage jazz, from Ellington through the Weather Report and would like to avoid bad recordings there too. In the jazz realm I’ve been acquiring economical Redbook CD sets like Bill Evans’ 12 Classic Albums, and most recently Wayne Shorter’s entire Blue Note recordings made with RVG (Rudy Van Gelder ) remasters. What I’ve learned so far I to do when purchasing these sets it to avoid those that are made of re-recorded MP3 files. Those sets don’t advertise they are MP3 file based, so I dig around reviews by purchasers who after after getting bilked, expose these recordings labels on Amazon,com Music . If you’ve any of these classic jazz sets or albums or reissue labels I should be avoiding, please let me know.
For example, I’m currently looking to purchase economical multiple album sets of Billie Holiday’s Commodore, Verve, and Decca recordings and would like to know which sets to avoid or conversely which sets are well done.. I like among others Miles Davis, Coltrane, Lester Young, Mingus, Charlie Parker, John McLaughlin, Art Blakely, Chet Baker, Ella Fitgerald, Gerry Mulligan and the like. Again, not obscure recordings or artists. I’d really like to not get burned on substandard recordings too. Si Iif you could forewarn of any particular recordings, or any reissue labels to avoid, please do. Next year I might start to get more Classical Music recordings, but that’s another ball of wax for another day
Maybe this question is too broad or poorly defined but I’d appreciate any help you could provide to avoid disappointment or throw any more cash in the garbage. Thanks, and I’d be pleased to answer any questions to clarify this rambling post.
Mike
For example, as I go through my old records, I’ve noticed a couple of favorites that are terribly recorded. A well known sub-par recording, Eric Clapton’s (Derek and the Dominoes) "Layla and Other Love Songs" is virtually not listenable. The Stones "Let It Bleed" I’ve had to replace with a Japaneses SACD as Jagger’s vocals sounded like he recorded them with a garbage can over his head. That SACD does sound considerably better, although the vocals on "Gimme Shelter still sound muffled. After some research on site and elsewhere, I just ordered another Japanese SACD of Layla out of the myriad available, which the reviewers said made Layla at least listenable.
Here’ the obvious problem. Both replacements were expensive as CD’a and records go, and I only want to spend that kind or resources on absolute favorite records. I am filling in the rock and roll and R&B portion of my record and CD collection of artists ranging from the Beatles up through the Sex Pistols. Are there any other well known albums like "Let It Bleed" or "Layla" I should avoid, or might already have, that will need to be purchased or bought again in upgraded formats. I’m not asking about obscure groups, but instead more well known artists like the Dead, Hendrix, Aretha Franklin, anything Motown, Janis Joplin, Dylan, Joni Mitchell, Bowie, Roxy Music, The Clash, Talking Heads, etc.
I’ve also been purchasing a lot of vintage jazz, from Ellington through the Weather Report and would like to avoid bad recordings there too. In the jazz realm I’ve been acquiring economical Redbook CD sets like Bill Evans’ 12 Classic Albums, and most recently Wayne Shorter’s entire Blue Note recordings made with RVG (Rudy Van Gelder ) remasters. What I’ve learned so far I to do when purchasing these sets it to avoid those that are made of re-recorded MP3 files. Those sets don’t advertise they are MP3 file based, so I dig around reviews by purchasers who after after getting bilked, expose these recordings labels on Amazon,com Music . If you’ve any of these classic jazz sets or albums or reissue labels I should be avoiding, please let me know.
For example, I’m currently looking to purchase economical multiple album sets of Billie Holiday’s Commodore, Verve, and Decca recordings and would like to know which sets to avoid or conversely which sets are well done.. I like among others Miles Davis, Coltrane, Lester Young, Mingus, Charlie Parker, John McLaughlin, Art Blakely, Chet Baker, Ella Fitgerald, Gerry Mulligan and the like. Again, not obscure recordings or artists. I’d really like to not get burned on substandard recordings too. Si Iif you could forewarn of any particular recordings, or any reissue labels to avoid, please do. Next year I might start to get more Classical Music recordings, but that’s another ball of wax for another day
Maybe this question is too broad or poorly defined but I’d appreciate any help you could provide to avoid disappointment or throw any more cash in the garbage. Thanks, and I’d be pleased to answer any questions to clarify this rambling post.
Mike
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Tablejockey, man, they want $500 for the copy of Layla you provided a link to at Better Records. I do all right financially, but not to that degree. The Japanese SHM SACD that arrived yesterday will have to do. "Little Wing" is really good as you say, having listened to it twice yesterday. The more sparsely arranged final cut on the album "Thorn Tree in the Garden" sounded especially well recorded on the SACD, compared to the rest of the album anyway. And you're fortunate to have the copies of Pretzel Logic and Let It Bleed you do. Glupson, since you mention it, I’ll have to go through all my old Stones records, bought on vinyl years ago, to see if any of them are as poorly recorded as Let It Bleed, and might need to be upgraded. I’ve all of their albums from years back, plus a few earlier oddball items like the Bill Wyman solo outing, the Chicago Blues session bootleg and Jammin’ with Edward. I always loved the Stones. I’ve all the Procul Harum albums too I think, on the original vinyl USA pressings and will similarly need to review those copies. "Shine on Brightly" was a great tune. I’ll try out Springsteen’s Nebraska that you suggest, even though I’ve only ever had one of his recordings. I always felt his music was a bit florid and overblown, kind of the same way U2 strikes me. Still enjoyable though. Southside Johnny and the Asbury Jukes, his Asbury Park contemporaries were a little more to my liking, being less grandiose. I do like all the others you mentioned too, and have most of all their recordings on the original vinyl too, needing to be re-listened to. None of the later Dylan material though. Thanks for all the links. I’ll try and get to them all today. Geoffkait, will the DSD versions not play on a CD/SACD player like my Marantz Ruby? The Layla SACD I got yesterday might have been taken from a 2013 DSD remaster, maybe not. There are so many variations of that recording available it’s hard to remember which was which and how they were re-done. Mike |
skyscraper, Bruce Springsteen Nebraska is, I think, not the usual Bruce Springsteen sound. Overblown may be the last word to come to one’s mind when talking about it. Try it on youtube, or wherever else, before you buy it. Just in case. If you like it, that record I linked to is of a good quality and reasonable price. (hint, hint) https://www.stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/927/index.html (see the second and third page "A Classic example") |
Geoffkait, will the DSD versions not play on a CD/SACD player like my Marantz Ruby? The Layla SACD I got yesterday might have been taken from a 2013 DSD remaster, maybe not. There are so many variations of that recording available it’s hard to remember which was which and how they were re-done. >>>>Any DSD CD or DSD Hybrid SACD should play on any player as far as I know. |
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Talking Heads had DVD-Audio (ouch, I mentioned it) of Remain In Light and Fear Of Music. They were as good as they could be, especially taking into consideration the original sound signature of Fear Of Music. Otherwise, buy a good record and be done.Didnt they release a box set with dvd audio on one side and cd on the other |
pjr801, Both of us are correct. Talking Heads box set called Brick was eight albums on DualDisc. DVD-Audio on one side and CD layer on the other one. I have DVD-Audios of Fear Of Music and Remain In Light with two discs each. One DVD-Audio and one CD per jewel case. Those are NOT DualDiscs. It seems that such packaging was released in Europe and not in the U.S.A. Thanks for reminding me of these differences. I converted those DVD-Audios to file format some years ago so they never see the light of the day anymore. |
I've found that hi-resolution downloads eclipse many of the physical media, with a few exceptions: ECM recordings, some of the better classical labels. But even burning the hi-rez files to Redbook cd-r in foobar gives far better sound and more definition than the "plain" Redbook store bought cds. The 2016 SACD Layla was also available as a higher resolution download. I burned it to cd just the other night and was amazed at how good it was - especially the drums - no murkiness at all in the mix. Don't know if any of that fits your modus operandi, but that's how I've dealt with your question. |
Glupson, https://www.stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/927/index.html Thanks for the Art Dudley review link. I love reading these kind of articles penned by the hand of those who were there then. Hindsight can be a wonderful thing, but it can also introduce terrible distortions. |
skyscraper- the next time you're in the record store, pick up a couple of cheap copies of Springsteen's "Darkness on the Edge of Town"https://www.better-records.com/product.aspx?pf_id=sprindarkn_1909_01_ You should hear some of the differences the Hot Stamper guys describes. It's an average recording, but a good pressing is noticed. "Streets of Fire" or "Candy's Room" is a demo song with a clean copy.Monster dynamics. |
I have found this site pretty useful for finding better versions of specific albums. I have gone with their recommendations and been satisfied. https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/the-best-version-of/ |
Needless to say I am not here to help anyone with quantity. You decide you are back to seeking quality, if ever you were, you know where to go. What might not have been apparent besides the high price though is that the people there at better-records.com not only find the albums, they clean them, and then they listen to them to determine the quality. So yes, while their price is high, the effort they’ve put in to the album, and probably the several (or more) other albums that didn’t meet their standards, warrant it. Unfortunately, it does get to a level though that only a select few with the financial means can fully enjoy it. Of course that is the way it is with many things. millercarbon is very fortunate to be in that group, obviously also very intelligent, I appreciate his expertise and help when he posts, but based on his level of sophistication, the off-putting comments, for example "if ever you were" could be curtailed a bit. |
I solved this problem by using a second,matching amp and preamp to drive subs. With a simply constructed DTDP switch, I defeat the sub crossovers to add harmonics to the terrible recordings, while increasing the bass without throwing anything out of phase. Yes, I did measure my drivers to time align the subs with the mains. Try it. You will like it . |
tablejockey, yes Darkness (my long time favourite Springsteen - though the sonically superior Western Skies is another contender) is a great example of a difficult (muddy) recording. Apparently Springsteen was into endless takes and overdubs, corrections, retries etc. I think he even confessed that when he heard the final cut for Born to Run he was thoroughly disheartened with the sound quality. So it's not always easy to find a good example on vinyl, especially of his early albums. To his credit Springsteen along with Dylan always did seem interested in how his albums sounded. The more recent CD reissues of Darkness seem to have now got it as clear as it can be. |
Ethiessen, that's a clever idea to download high resolution files onto Redbook CD-R's if that gets better results than buying the Redbook cd off the shelf. I don't do any downloading myself, but other's certainly do, and could benefit from your idea. I've also liked ECM recordings since they first came out. They seemed to have a distinct clean and quiet sound to their recordings. I took one along when demoing speakers a while back. Tablejockey, when I give Springsteen a second chance that and Nebraska are the CD's I'll try on your and Glupson's recommendations. Jimf421, thanks for the link. I'd never looked at the Audiophile Style site before. Finding specific album reviews addressing the quality of particular pressings is what I'm looking for. Alaric, that makes sense not to buy a digital remaster on vinyl. It would seeming defeat the purpose of vinyl. My vinyl buying days seem to be over at this point anyway in favor of CD's and SACD's. The_treble_with_tribbles, it's a shame bettrrecords.com are so prohibitively expensive. At least some people can benefit from what they are doing. Danvignau, sounds like a clever idea for those of you with subs. Glad it worked for you. Glupson, the last local record store for new records and CD's, Barnes and Noble, deleted their music department not long ago. There is one small used record store left in Roanoke I've yet to visit, that specializes in vinyl. But their prices listed online seemed quit high for used, when you can get the equivalent CD's new without the snap,crackle and pops larry5729 mentioned above. And to any jazz lovers out there, the Rudy Van Gelder remastered eleven CD set of all of Wayne Shorter's Blue Note albums is quite good. It is on the Italian Universal Classics and Jazz label and reasonably priced at about $50. I had a set on order through Amazon for about $35, but the store listing it at that price was out of stock. The set runs up to his forming Weather Report and overlaps his tenure with Miles Davis, and maybe follows his time with Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers.Not sure if there is any overlap there. Great sidemen throughout including Coltrane's band-mates from his classic quartet and Davis band-mates like Herbie Hancock and others. I'm OD'ing on those eleven albums right now, wading through the sixth one this moment. All are excellent so far. |
skyscraper OP339 posts02-29-2020 1:52pmEthiessen, that's a clever idea to download high resolution files onto Redbook CD-R's if that gets better results than buying the Redbook cd off the shelf. >>>>Then you have to read the CD-R with your CD player, which is where the problem is in the first place. Sounds like a non-starter. |