Azimuth 2020

Personally I cannot make light of either arguement. But I gotta side with cleeds for civility.
I just started this thread to fish for ideas, not sociopathology.

Why do that cleeds.....just train for a month, and get the meeting place.

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Insults and invective are bad enough, but when the vitriol rises to the level of doxing and physical threats, I exit the conversation. I care a whole lot more about my family than I do this forum.

There are obviously some angry and frustrated people here. I actually feel sorry for them.

mijostyn"Cleeds you are such a baby. You have all my posts deleted because you can't take being dead wrong. melm, don't bother. He is totally incapable of understand. I already tried an analogy a 3 year old could understand.Cleeds is a contrary. (Little Big Man) Everyone better read this before cleeds has it deleted. Never in doubt and always wrong.

I applaud, congratulate, and honor mijostyn for his insightful, accurate, penetrating observation, analysis, and characterization of "cleeds" and for mijostyn's bravery, fortitude, and honor in bringing forth this truth. Cleeds is like an infected boil or perhaps a hemmoroid who stains this group with his observations, pronouncements, and proclamations that he issues with the air of resounding authority, expertise, and expertise yet he owns no Music Reproduction System at all! He conspires with the moderators of this forum to censor, limit, and restrict the expressions of ideas, opinions, and observations that conflict with his own from which he operates in a world of complete and utter fear, cowardice, and shame. I have argued before that he is not worthy of this group or it's other members, contributors, and commentators, yet he continues his mission of ignorance and misinformation. I happen to know this guys REAL NAME and would be happy to share with anyone who pm's me I have his address and phone too we could show up at his house and teach him a thing or too but I will not be back in the US for a few months so that will have to wait. let's go mijostyn let's stick it to this guy!

Cleeds you are such a baby. You have all my posts deleted because you can't take being dead wrong. melm, don't bother. He is totally incapable of understand. I already tried an analogy a 3 year old could understand.
Cleeds is a contrary. (Little Big Man) 
Everyone better read this before cleeds has it deleted. Never in doubt and always wrong.

@cleeds,
"Your claim can only be accurate if the pickup arm (or turntable) itself is not "true." That is, the arm cannot be raised or lowered while also remaining absolutely perpendicular to the turntable platter.
Or perhaps, like mijostyn, you don't understand what these angles define."

Often wrong, but never in doubt.

In the first place, the arm perpendicular to the platter?

Let me make it easy for you.  Make believe that instead of the usual offset, the cartridge had a 90 degree offset from the arm.  Of course this would never be, but play along for a moment.  Surely then if you raised the arm the azimuth would change.  Right?

Now consider changing the offset angle a bit towards a reasonable one.  Then the arm being raised would change the azimuth, but a bit less and would continue to do so less and less until the cartridge was lined up with the arm, no offset.  Can you see it now?

mijostyn"Cleeds you are smoking too much pot and like usual you have no idea what you are talking about and are only confusing others who are trying to understand this. You should be ashamed of yourself. When you have no idea what you are talking about we would all be better served if you would just shut up.

Cleeds is like an oozing infected boil he is wrong almost all of the time and does not even own a Music Reproduction System I believe he should be banished from this group for infecting us with error, misinformation, propaganda and deception. Mijostyn I think you may be correct that cleeds is hopelessly stoned, intoxicated or drugged beyond his ability to think, reason, and  articulate with any value, meaning, or substance at all he is a hopeless, wasted, useless member of this group.

Cleeds you are smoking too much pot and like usual you have no idea what you are talking about and are only confusing others who are trying to understand this. You should be ashamed of yourself. When you have no idea what you are talking about we would all be better served if you would just shut up.  edwyun in no way is phase affected by azimuth. Fortunately, phase shift between the two channels is frequency sensitive. Only high frequencies suffer significant phase shift with tracking error. Bass frequencies are not significantly affected. 
Melm, absolutely correct. 

I think what can happen, if azimuth is set at any angle different from 90 degrees, is that as you raise or lower the VTA. the contact points of the stylus, depending upon stylus shape, might alter their contact with the groove and certainly the distribution of forces on the groove walls would shift a bit.  But this effect, like very small changes in VTA, is tiny.  If azimuth is set at a perfect 90 degree angle to the groove, none of this would happen.  You'd have only the effect of VTA per se on groove contact.

"Cross talk is affected by azimuth. Phase is affected by tracking error."
And phase between the two channels is also affected by azimuth.  All the adjustments on a TT are interrelated to some degree.  And these changes can be measured and heard.

melm

"VTA and azimuth are two completely independent angles." Only with a tangential tonearm, not with a pivoted, offset, one. The effect may be minor, depending on the degree of offset, but it's there.

Your claim can only be accurate if the pickup arm (or turntable) itself is not "true."  That is, the arm cannot be raised or lowered while also remaining absolutely perpendicular to the turntable platter.

Or perhaps, like mijostyn, you don't understand what these angles define.

@cleeds,

"VTA and azimuth are two completely independent angles."  Only with a tangential tonearm, not with a pivoted, offset, one.  The effect may be minor, depending on the degree of offset, but it's there.

mijostyn

Cleeds, Lederman is a business man and obviously his approach has worked on you. Everything he belches is common knowledge ...

I’ve met Lederman several times and never heard him belch. Whether you care for his products or style or not, his accomplishments in audio probably dwarf yours.

As you raise the VTA of an offset tonearm the stylus leans towards the rim of the platter. As you lift the head shell the stylus leans toward the spindle.

Wow, you obviously either have some seriously defective or misaligned gear, or you’re confused about basic geometry. VTA and azimuth are two completely independent angles. Offset is independent of azimuth. Perhaps you are confused as to the definition and measurement of azimuth.

Cross talk is affected by azimuth. Phase is affected by tracking error.

Cleeds, Lederman is a business man and obviously his approach has worked on you. Everything he belches is common knowledge except for the stuff he makes up like "jitter." When he says "jitter" just replace it with "miss tracking."
 As you raise the VTA of an offset tonearm the stylus leans towards the rim of the platter. As you lift the head shell the stylus leans toward the spindle. Everyone, imagine your arm sticking straight up. What position is the stylus in? Now imagine you arm straight down. What position is the stylus in? Nuff said.

mijostyn

Peter Lederman is the last person I would take advice from ...

Really? Lederman has a decades-long track record as a designer of speakers, electronics and phono cartridges. He and his team at Soundsmith also provide expert service on audiophile equipment - including tricky things such as Tandberg TD20As - and I’m saying that from firsthand experience. So I’d be inclined to consider his advice, even though I may not always heed it.

The vast majority of us have offset tonearms. Because of the offset as the arm goes up the stylus leans toward the spindle. Azimuth in offset tonearms is elevation sensitive.

Huh? For that to be true, you’d have to have a horrible misalignment between the turntable platter and the pickup arm. If the platter and pickup arm base are both level, azimuth cannot change as you change VTA, even if you want to call that "elevation."

I suppose it’s possible that the pickup arm itself could be defective, such that the arm could not be raised in a perfectly vertical fashion. I’ve never encountered that, though.

Hi fi news test record is good so is the soundsmith method

WOW!
What the f..k!
I adjust it by ear on my VPI
I adjust by Foz on my ET 2.5

Been there, done that. Even if you get crosstalk correct, you cant get phase difference correct with mirrors, macro cameras, voltmeters, etc. You may get close if you are lucky. Plus, many carts are out of spec in terms of crosstalk so getting them equal sometimes is incorrect. Once I was able to verify this error with one new cart using software. It was quickly replaced by the dealer. Need both crosstalk and phase to be correct for azimuth, the latter you need to measure.

@lewm, yes you can adjust just azimuth the get best crosstalk and zero phase difference.  But that means all other parameters need to be set in the sweetspot too.  So you do end up having to go back to adjusting VTF, VTA, etc. and then back azimuth to get there.  That is what AnalogMagik and Adjust+ have taught me.  And it is worth it.

Not at all Mijo.
But then I would also not be so presumptuous to think I knew more or better than he does and would certainly not say so here.......

And never pass up the opportunity for a cheap shot.......😉😉

I knew Joe Grado personally....went to his lab in Westfield, NJ, rode in his yellow Lambo, when no one had one.  He was a singer at the MET..had a great voice, and knew sound.  His state of the art system was AR woofer, Janzen electrostatic midrange, and Ionovac  plasma tweeters.  Great fun.

Uberwaltz, don't tell me you are in love with Peter Lederman. I thought MC was the only jitterbug here. Peter Ledernman is no god. He took an old B+O design and stuffed it in an ugly body. He learned how to manufacture cartridges, something anyone even you could do and created a marketing strategy to suck people in. None of this is rocket science. The real cartridge god is Joseph Grado. Everything comes from his work. He tossed the moving coil design because with the materials he had on hand the moving mass was simply too high and even with the stiffest suspensions there were serious resonance problems in the upper registers. So he created the moving iron design which was far superior with the materials he had to work with. The B+O was a modification of his design something that Peter fails to mention god forbid he should give Grado some credit. I think Joseph Grado would be pleased to see what has happened to the moving coil design with modern materials and magnets. 

Darn Terry don't tell everybody!! 

Actually terry I have tossed cartridges for less and I won't sell them off either without letting the potential buyer know they are defective. I expect cartridges to be perfectly aligned and stay that way. If they are not and don't I permanently avoid that manufacturer. But as I have said all the top manufacturers are very good. I have not seen a defective cartridge in a long time. So, I expect very few people will wind up tossing their cartridges.
Get that stylus perfectly perpendicular and chance are your cross talk will be at it's best. If you want to spend $300 on a fozzgowhatever to prove it to yourself knock yourself out. I'd rather buy music:)

I only sweat azimuth when using my transit...
...and we're talking inches over feet.....;)

I know there are several devices for azimuth.
I am not very tech able but found that the SmartTractor was easy, accurate and made it obvious.
After a couple of steps it uses a small magnifying glass that when looking through you can clearly see how to adjust the cartridge so that the stylus tracks at the right angle to the grove. About a millimeter to the left and the difference in the sound was huge!I was cautious at first thinking it was too complex. But it as a piece of cake. I borrowed the SmartTractor from a friend. Too bad it cost about $700. But for such a useful, multi purpose tool it is worth it.

@mijostyn , "The the crosstalk is not at it's highest value with the stylus perfectly upright in the groove then toss it. It's junk."

No disrespect Mijo, but you wouldn't be thinking of dumpster diving, would you?

Peter Lederman is the last person I would take advice from

whoa!

Lewm, that is correct it is just measuring the amount of leakage across channels and it does allow you to optimize this. As you have noted the problem is this does not guarantee a perpendicular stylus and the thing cost what, $300? A pocket mirror guarantees a perpendicular stylus and costs maybe a buck fifty?

Peter Lederman is the last person I would take advice from. As lewm suggests it is a record wear issue not a crosstalk issue. Crosstalk goes to how well the cartridge was constructed. The the crosstalk is not at it's highest value with the stylus perfectly upright in the groove then toss it. It's junk.
Next. Springstein, I am not at all sure what you are talking about. The only really important factor in regards to the mirror used is it's thickness which should be about the same as a 150 gm record. Why? The vast majority of us have offset tonearms. Because of the offset as the arm goes up the stylus leans toward the spindle. Azimuth in offset tonearms is elevation sensitive. Those with tangential trackers can use a coke bottle if they want. As far as what side of the mirror is plated? It does not matter. As long as the stylus is at record level and the reflection is perfectly symmetrical you are in business. 
Some people try to just eyeball the stylus. Bad idea. The stylus has glue around it which is never even and it can fool you. The mirror greatly magnifies the error and allows you to focus on the very tip of the stylus.
You need good lighting! Try it and you'll see. Just grab one of your wife's compact cases. There is a mirror in the top. Also don't forget to defeat the anti skate or the arm will slide backwards!

terry9, I had the exact same experience with my Koetsu Urushi.  After I first acquired it about 10 years ago, I adjusted azimuth using my Signet Cartridge Analyzer.  There I first noted that "equal" crosstalk and "least" crosstalk are two mutually exclusive goals, and to obtain equal crosstalk, L to R and R to L, the azimuth angle of the Koetsu was ridiculously biased to one side.  I actually listened to it that way for a bit, and the experience was not good.  Fearing that I had already damaged the stylus and maybe some LPs, I soon went back to near 90 degrees where I could obtain low values but not equal values.  Maybe not even the lowest possible values, but I decided it was better to settle for that, and the sound was improved as well.  The Koetsu is one of those hand made cartridges that can have been less than perfectly constructed.  I subsequently had similar experiences with a few other cartridges.  Then I read a white paper which made the argument in favor of proper seating of the stylus tip in the LP groove.  It makes sense to me.

I don't know for sure but from the tenor of other posts about the Fozgometer, I am guessing it may operate by equalizing crosstalk, R to L vs L to R.  That is not my cup of tea.

It's interesting when one compares "industrial" cartridges with hand-made ones.  Generally speaking the industrial ones like Audio Technica, for example, will usually line up symmetrically very well and generally better than the hand-made ones.

With my AT Art-9 I always begin by making a horizontal line of the cartridge and its reflection on a disk to be parallel.  That's just the starting point. After that, it's all by ear, and only a minute adjustment is required, so no "terrible cant."

As i noted earlier, it's critical that you have an easy method of tiny arm adjustments for azimuth.  But that's not very common at all.

With respect to some who are well-known experts here, I don’t agree with much of the above. Except Lewm.

Peter Lederman of SoundSmith gives a very good discussion of this topic. My interpretation and memory of what he said, follows. Hope I got it right - you can check it.

He points out that crosstalk is partially a measure of how well the stylus sits in the groove, and that high end cartridges can have very different left and right crosstalk figures. He points out that it is better to have high thirties in one channel and low forties in the other, rather than high thirties in both. And that high end manufacturers do that.

My higher end Koetsu had to be canted at a terrible angle to achieve equality at 38 dB (Foz). An electron microscope photomicrograph showed that the stylus was perfectly symmetrical, so that was not the issue. The issue was, obviously, that Peter was right, and equalizing crosstalk was a big mistake for high end cartridges.

So I start visually by assuming that a high end cartridge isn’t too far off, and adjusting by ear. It’s not as fast or easy or repeatable, but after many small adjustments over a month, it’s pretty damned accurate.

That’s judged subjectively by how well the stylus sits in the groove and pleases the ear, as well as objectively by near perfectly symmetrical wear patterns on the stylus (photomicrograph).

My $0.02. YMMV

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/crazy-little-thing-called-azimuth-part-2

I use the Tacet Vinyl Check record, get my multimeter out and drive everyone around me crazy with the noise...

Fuzztone,  I find it's most enlightening when two or more people openly disagree and then have a civil discussion, preferably backed up by facts in support of one position or another.  It's fine to disagree, in my opinion.  It's better not to be nasty about it.
Stringreen, I did not want to be needlessly contentious with Mijostyn and others who have suggested using a mirror.  I personally do not.  Also, I never finished explaining my rationale for deciding not to agonize over determining azimuth electrically vs setting it "physically", by setting the stylus square in the LP groove.  It's because in the electrical measure, if the stylus ends up at an angle with respect to 90 degrees azimuth, then you may (or may not, if you haven't done it correctly) have better numbers for crosstalk, but you have introduced other sources for distortion and possibly sources of wear on the stylus, suspension, and the LP.  That scares me more than a small deviation from the best possible numbers for crosstalk.  If the cartridge is poorly constructed such that the azimuth angle has to be other than 90, send it back.  (I've never tried to do that, because I never had the foresight to measure a brand new cartridge just after receiving it.  Also, most of  the cartridges I own are vintage.)

you can not use a pocket mirror for azimuth.  The silver (reflective) side is above the glass its sitting on which will create big errors.   If you must use a mirror, get an old SLR camera mirror that is silvered on the correct side for your application.

Unwarranted to disagree with anyone here. Civil discussions are pleasant AND educational. Thanks all for the insight.

edwyun, I ask this question out of pure curiosity, not meaning to disagree at all, but is it possible to optimize two parameters (crosstalk and phase) that may be antagonistic by making one adjustment of cartridge orientation (azimuth)?  I would guess the result is inevitably a compromise, which is where we all end up in this hobby.

There you go, Lewm has the right idea. You put the stylus down on a pocket mirror which makes the error much easier to see. Use a good light.
The stylus and it's refection form an hourglass. You adjust the azimuth until the hourglass is perfectly symmetrical. There is no better way to do this as this insures the lowest record wear. If the cartridge is not constructed well you might have more crosstalk but the solution to this problem is not more record wear. It is a better cartridge. 

I respect everyone's methodology. 
That is the sole reason I asked. Not for sarcastic sad sack BS.
 I didn't acquire a Puffin for azimuth setting. I got it because it optimizes my carts closer/easier than all others. Any SQ you desire is obtainable.
And it has noise control ala SugarCube so I can stand listening to my Direct 2 Disc platters again.
And it was $399 delivered in 3 days. Plus a few bucks for SPDIF output parts. I'm not sure if that is worth it as the internal TI DAC matches the ADC transparently. Shannon is improving the firmware (free) daily.
He started out in the biz making a successful tube pre but he's moved on and up in SQ.
https://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/parks_audio_puffin_e.html

Puffin seems to only measute crosstalk.  Need to measure both crosstalk and phase to optimize azimuth (a la Adjust+ or AnalogMagik).

@fuzztone,

You don’t need Puffin. You don’t need a test record. People have been doing it essentially that way for decades.

All you need is any old mono record. You flip the wires on one channel of your cartridge. You are then playing the mono record out of phase and listening for the least sound. Just saved you $500 for the test record and Puffin.

I used to do it differently, using an early stereo record called Persuasive Percussion*, which was elevator music played on one side at a time. Turned off one side using balance control, and then the other, in each case listening for the track not played and made adjustment. These days I take a good classical recording with a huge sound stage and adjust for the max. No need to buy Fozgometer and record.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBK2nuAKzlA

Most important thing in setting azimuth, IMO, is the ease of making fine adjustments to the cartridge. Without that it’s hopeless. Using the VPI dual pivot makes it crazy easy.

@miem
You don't miss much.  BUT you are the first one to ask.


https://www.facebook.com/169943296511400/posts/1506320702873646/

@fuzztone
"there is a new kid on the block that DOES give you crosstalk figures in .1 db"  And who is that?  Did I miss something?  Thanks.

Springsteen,
That is good information

Thank You

Glad we're in agreement of importance to SQ. Your methods may vary.

I used the Foz with its accompanying record and found that there is no adjustment more important in making the speakers disappear.  The Foz is easily done with great results.....be sure to use a new battery every time.

As long as everyone is happy, dat's good.

Feikert is NOT the only option as there is a new kid on the block that DOES give you crosstalk figures in .1 db.  Actually mine dropped 5.1 db matched after a .1 db boost to the left channel. 
Just sayin'
Not holy grail, more like holy crap.