Azimuth 2020

Physically it is the best way what Nandric, Lewm, and audioquest4life experience. Nevertheless I am curious if electronic measurements do mirror our listening findings.

best
E.

I still use a MOFI Geodisc. Works pretty good for me on SME V arms. Make minor adjustments and and tweaks if needed afterwards. Rock solid imaging without sibilants.  

I ever made the following joke. ''Are you listing to the music?''
''No I am still adjusting''...
I use those small ''levels'' on the headshell (on the record). The
job of the manufacturers is to produce correct cartridges without
''deviations''. If so than ''parallel adjsutment'' should do. Those who
own many cartridges and enjoy their ''rulation'' have no time
for ''endless djustment''. 

I guess I will find out about the two tools, perfectly manufactured and aligned and do report about my findings.

best
E.

Looks like the same concept, minimize cross-talk.

"PDM-1 by Sperling Audio" and it's only $2026.   

Not sure why I would give a company free consulting. Fosgate device is just one method. Not my fault it does not properly set azimuth for cartridges without perfect manufacturing.
Lewm, I linked an article with graphs that show high frequency response with and without proper azimuth alignment.

Very interesting discussion. BTW there is a new tool on the market, built by Sperling, the German Phono builder: PDM-1 by Sperling Audio. Looks much more serious than the Fozgometer. I have no experience with it.

usually I prefer adjusting Azimuth with well known puristic recorded LPs. I am not looking at the center stage reproduction rather than at an equally room reproduction in both channels and at the straight edge on the sides and rear of the mapped room.

If you know where to listen to it is very simple. With perfect Azimuth alignment it is all about degrees... it is about arc minutes (=1/60 degree) or about arc seconds (=1/3600 degree!!)...

Best
E.

I don't know all the inner workings of the Foz, but based on the stated method of crosstalk, I can tell you it is not optimizing azimuth, which means it is not optimizing what the needle can extract from the record.

I guess you should contact Jim Fosgate and help him create a better and more accurate device.
I have done a crosstalk measurement using a DMM after setting with Foz, my results gave me a crosstalk of more than 32dB using 1KHz tone, which lines up with the Lyra spec. Also using the Wally chart the channel difference is less than 1dB.
I'm sure this is not always spot on every time, but it remains the range I get when I do test.
Again, everyone should align with what they are comfortable with and then listen and reset as needed till you hear improvement. Then sit back and enjoy...why beat your head against the wall?? 
It will never be 100% perfect, analog records and turntables are a mechanical moving physical media, get as close as you can. 

Robert, please define “optimizing the left and right channel high frequency response “ for frequency >20khz and how you would do it. Thx.

Control of cutting heads is pretty accurate, and pressing would not impart angle accuracy. It would be highly unlikely the grooves would be out of alignment by more than say 0.05 degrees, and likely less.  I don't know all the inner workings of the Foz, but based on the stated method of crosstalk, I can tell you it is not optimizing azimuth, which means it is not optimizing what the needle can extract from the record.

Well what you mention is what I meant: maximize the minimum, minimize the numbers, however you want to describe it.
Crosstalk always falls under the discussion of azimuth, hence the title of this thread and it was mentioned, so people are talking about it.
The point is, you can adjust one or the other till you die as the setting will never be 100% perfect, considering you have zero control over the playing surface and how a record was mixed, mastered, cut and pressed, even test records vary.

I have been using TTs for about 40yrs and have had many tables and different carts including some 3x as much as what I have now. Back in the day setting azimuth by eye and using a volt meter never got me the sonic results I get now with the Foz. Once plugged in takes less than 5 min to get all readings.
My soundstage is beyond wall to wall, I have almost no surface noise and wide dynamics and high resolution.

I'm very happy! 

That's not really true. "Crosstalk" is not a matter of being accurate. You can maximize the minimum crosstalk, i.e. lowest in each direction, or maximize the total cross talk. Neither is going to optimize azimuth which is accurate orientation of the stylus w.r.t. the groove.
Optimizing the left and right channel frequency response at high frequencies, i.e. >20KHz, appears to be the best measure of accurate azimuth. This is not the same as low frequency channel balance.

There is no RIGHT or WRONG setting or answer.

There is no RIGHT or WRONG setting or answer, only the best scenario for your situation and setup. You need to decide do you want the most accurate channel balance or the most accurate crosstalk measurement? 

Then sit back and enjoy.

MiJostyn.....not in all cases If the pivot of the arm is at a different angle than is the headshell..... Cleeds is right. Bad arm design....every warp of the record would change the azimuth (as well as the VTA, and vtf)

looscannon

It seems there might be a problem with definitions here.
With any offset arm changing the VTA ...

Good point, and it is quite likely that you are correct. I suspected earlier in the thread that some here did not understand some of these definitions (such as VTA, SRA and azimuth) and so of course that's an obstacle to understanding.

I can't help those who don't understand the geometry of pivoted pickup arms. I can only suggest to them that - as a starting point - they listen to someone such as Wally Malewicz (RIP) explain. There is an introductory video here.

Azimuth can be measured, by the way, so it's silly for this dispute to continue.

@cleeds 

"If the pickup arm’s pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset"

What is a pivot angle and how can an angle be perpendicular to anything?  I fear you are in over your head.  Just as well that this matter be dropped.

First of all cleeds I am not a him, I am a her. 

It seems there might be a problem with definitions here. 
With any offset arm changing the VTA will ever so slightly change the azimuth. Within a reasonable setting for VTA the change is trivial but it is proper to set VTA before setting the azimuth.  cleeds, you said something about a tonearm being "true." What did you mean by that.

While I am at it I have not properly introduced myself. I am a retired psychologist. My father was an old time TV repair man. He also was an autherized Zenith dealer and repair center. For special customers he would make house calls. I frequently went with him with his big black case full of tubes and parts, the things that frequently broke. It was not long before people had him repairing their Music systems also. A lot of it was Zenith back then, big cabinets full of speakers with the changers mounted under a lid at the top. So I guess this is how I caught the bug.

I was an only child and I think my father really wanted a boy. I willingly took the role, a bit too seriously. By the time I was 13 I had already broken 4 bones, my left clavicle, both wrists and my sternum. Dad called me his loose canon. 

By age 10 with dad's help I was building Eico and Heathkit radios and record players. My first record was Meet the Beatles. Dad liked Jazz. 
It is a continuum from there. I do not have a favorite format. I listen to everything. I love glowing tubes and big hot class A amps. Anything that plays a record is fine by me. We have to keep them pressing records.
Buying FLAC files on line is the new thing and I am contemplating exactly how I'm going to set it up but that is a topic for another thread. 

Greetings and Salutations All,
Looscannon

melm

... you are still incorrect if you are talking about a pivoted arm with an offset.

If the pickup arm’s pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset, changing VTA will not alter azimuth. (Disclaimer: that applies only if the arm is properly constructed and installed. If its manufacture or install deviates from "true," then all bets are off.) Why don’t you try it and see for yourself? It’s silly to argue about something that can actually be measured.

You might want to try and find a Wallytractor azimuth tool. You would likely find it quite revealing!! Malewicz understood these things.

This is all pretty basic geometry, folks.

@cleeds 

"When I stated that azimuth is a completely different angle than VTA and that adjusting one doesn’t alter the other, I should have added "in a properly designed, manufactured and installed pickup arm." I’ll be more careful with that next time. Thank you!"  

No, you are still incorrect if you are talking about a pivoted arm with an offset.

looscannon

... it would seem to me cleeds that you might own certain people and apology. I don’t condone hot headed behavior ...

I’m not sure I understand you. Are you suggesting that I apologize to the two users who the moderators independently decided were in repeated violation of the group’s rules and - despite warnings from the moderators - not only continued their violations, but escalated them to the point of threatening my family and me? I’ve been around this forum long enough to know that being temporarily banned from the group is the only way some people understand that the rules apply equally to them as they do everyone else.

... it does seem to me that you have a hard time admitting you are wrong.

When I stated that azimuth is a completely different angle than VTA and that adjusting one doesn’t alter the other, I should have added "in a properly designed, manufactured and installed pickup arm." I’ll be more careful with that next time. Thank you!

I think it would be sporting if you had those people re instituted.

You’re apparently new to this forum so I’ll explain this for you: It’s not for me (or you) to "re-institute" the two violators. Only the moderators can do that. If you feel they were treated unfairly, you might want to contact the moderators and plead your case. Perhaps they’ll share with you the actual content of some of the deleted posts. That way you’ll know what you’re talking about.

Of course - given that @looscannon just joined this forum in the past week - it’s possible that he is actually a sockpuppet for one of the two banned users. No matter. I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt, as a courtesy.

I think by eye you can do better than 1 degree if you have any magnification. Used one of those Intel USB microscopes before and it looked perfectly aligned, so perhaps 1/10 degree or less?  Does it have to be that perfect?  I doubt it. It takes me little time to test, and it needs to be done so rarely.

You think roberttdid, just how accurate do you think you are. I have an excellent eye but I'd bet my resolution is not better than 1 degree, maybe worse.

Well that is easy, if it is not able to be setup right and you find the cart body skewed drastically then.....send the cartridge back and get a new one or better built cartridge.

Fozzgometer does not work properly for azimuth especially if the cartridge has internal alignment issues. 1 degree out will make a bigger difference than any high priced cables.

After having reviewed the entire thread it would seem to me cleeds that you might own certain people and apology. I don't condone hot headed behavior and some people do have an unnecessarily short fuse. But, it does seem to me that you have a hard time admitting you are wrong. I think it would be sporting if you had those people re instituted. Threatened? what were they going to do. Cut your ears off? 
This thread has gotten way too complicated for the subject which is about as simple as it gets. A degree one way or another is not going to make any difference what so ever. All it takes is a good eye and a mirror and you are in business. If you do not have a good eye get someone who does.  $300.00 (fozzgometer) buys a lot of records or a nice dinner out with the wife so you can get away with buying more records. A dozen roses also helps. Us ladies love flowers🥰 

Easy to miss. Only the OP gets notified for all posts. I do appreciate all of the non rude viewpoints.  Except for the smartass sarcastic idiotic ones. 

luisma31

I missed something with cleeds, did he was threatened through a PM?

No, I was threatened right here on this thread. The posts were deleted and the two users given a "time out." Pathetic.

I'm getting into analog (in a serious approach not just playing vinyl on any turntable) and this discussion turned out to be very informative. Reading through it what lewm states makes a lot of common sense and I'm planning on following that approach.

I missed something with cleeds, did he was threatened through a PM?

catcher10, the problem with the cross-talk method is it is really only accurate if the cartridge is manufactured properly, and even then works best with simpler stylus designs.

The most accurate method I understand for cross talk is using a digital volt meter and measuring the output of a 1KHz tone. This method is difficult as you really need a filter so you are only measuring in the 1KHz range, this way the measurement is not bouncing all over the place.

This is why I use the Fozgometer, since it has that filter built in, the analog meter is very still easy to read. Measuring for cross talk is to play a 1KHz tone in R channel and measure the L channel, then reverse. You can use the Foz to do this, just disconnect the R cable and the meter will drop to a very low level since it is measuring the info in the L channel. Note the needle position, then adjust based on other reading.

When I do this, the meter results are similar to exact. 1) L and R readings are within half a hash mark. 2) Channel balance the needle is dead on ZERO with the mono 1KHz tone.
The real results are the soundstage is wall to wall, bass is deep and articulate and very importantly surface noise is greatly reduced and with new records almost gone. 

Question  of method is NOT a big deal.
Justa innocent query boss.

What, is the big deal?🤔 You put za needle in za groove upright. Not sideways, upright. No problem boss.

@lewm 

good answer
If we wanna fu(ss) wid azimuth for better SQ, have at it.
Or send the cartridge back and  listen to some mighty fine streams instead.Or maybe ISKC Blues Cafe.

Robert, You took my meaning wrongly, when I wrote that the best use of azimuth adjustment is to manage crosstalk, not channel balance.  In fact, I found the logic of the Korf article, when I first read it about a year ago, to be compelling.  He doesn't say to use azimuth adjustment to correct for channel imbalance but not crosstalk, as your response to me might suggest; he does say one is best off by seating the stylus in the groove symmetrically and not to fuss with azimuth, which is a philosophy I now follow.  I only wanted to add that azimuth adjustments have a much greater effect on crosstalk than on channel balance, if one wants to fuss with azimuth.

Quality for SQ? Or for vinyl conservation?
That IS the question.

I differ with the person who claimed he arrived at the same azimuth settings whether using the Fozgometer or the Feickert software. I have used both, and rarely has that been the case when you take the time. The Foz is easier to use since no computer is used but doesn't yield the same results and the same quality.

Ii don't think the korfaudio article says very much.  For example: "Consequently, any tonearm that does not have azimuth adjustment is severely deficient".  I would say that if it doesn't have an EASY adjustment it is defective.

In my experience that would include VPI pivoted arms.  It can be done with those arms but it is a major pain in the neck.  Adding the dual pivot makes the adjustment very easy, and IMO makes that accessory a necessity.  

Also I find the article incredibly naive in its expectation that a cartridge can be so correctly assembled (in the real world) as to not require an adjustment.  Not to mention the possibility of the slightest non-parallelism between the arm board and the platter.

roberttdid

Bit hard to follow the conversation to know if any conclusions were reached ...

That was the deliberate result of the two users who turned this conversation into ugly nonsense. They've since been given a temporary "time out" from the group.

If the pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset portion of the arm, the azimuth will not change as the cartridge is raised and lowered.

Exactly!

For most tone-arms, the pivot angle is perpendicular to the main arm.

You make a fair point and for those arms, azimuth will change slightly as the arm is raised or lowered. I don't know whether that represents "most" pickup arms or not, but it's arguably a design deficiency.

This isn’t true unfortunately,

my point is that azimuth is best used to manage crosstalk, not channel balance. If I were faced with channel imbalance, there are other ways to correct it.

I could spend hours typing, and never communicate well this topic, but fortunately, someone already went to all the trouble, and even has nice pictures: http://korfaudio.com/blog36

I can attest to what they surmise that the Ortofon test record does work (3rd blog post). I find the high frequency sweep is more sensitive, hence more accurate, but it is an easier test for me than it may be for others. A single tone THD may be easier for most.

And by the way, these days I rarely even try to adjust azimuth electrically. I have come to favor just getting the stylus to sit properly in the groove, which is usually very close to if not exactly at 90 degrees azimuth.  I leave it to the manufacturer to build the cartridge properly.

Actually, because I have a Triplanar tonearm (with easy azimuth adjustment) and that Signet Cartridge Analyzer (which has a built-in db meter) I mentioned up above, I once experimented to find out how much could Azimuth alone alter channel balance, assuming that 90 degrees of azimuth gave perfect channel balance.  The result was a bit less than +/-2db, where the azimuth angle was radically off at either extreme, like a range of 60 degrees to 120 degrees, which one would never choose to live with.  I don't argue with anything you say in your post of 3:05 PM; my point is that azimuth is best used to manage crosstalk, not channel balance.  If I were faced with channel imbalance, there are other ways to correct it.  And while there is always a choice to shoot for equal crosstalk vs "best" crosstalk, my aim would be to try to achieve best numbers, R to L and L to R, regardless of the fact that the two values would not be equal.  But there are two sides to that question, and I recognize that others may disagree (like the guy who designed the Fozgometer).

Nice coherent explanation of your viewpoint.
Thanks.

Azimuth has a significant impact on channel balance when you start looking at frequencies out past 10K, and especially past 20Khz, which you can get on the Ortofon test records (and Denon if you can find them).

If you balance the crosstalk, so it is the same on both channels, then your azimuth is likely off. The forces are slightly different for the left and right channels, even with perfect alignment and that contributes to slightly different crosstalk. If you balance the frequency response, then you are getting consistent groove tracking on both channels.

Yes, but changing azimuth will also alter crosstalk, and azimuth has far less of an effect on channel balance vs crosstalk.  So a little change in balance makes a big change in crosstalk relationships. 

Matched for output level on a high frequency test sweep. If the azimuth is off, you will get left to right output level variations as the frequency changes at high frequencies.

Robert, You wrote, "I pull out the test record and do a high frequency sweep to make sure channels are matched."
Matched for what?  Balance or crosstalk?

Bit hard to follow the conversation to know if any conclusions were reached:

Magnified, the grooves in a turntable may look straight, but they are still curved with the record which causes the cross-talk from one channel to be higher than the other with perfect azimuth. Stylus shape will impact this hence likely why high end cartridges will exhibit this more. Tuning azimuth based on averaging cross-talk will not be ideal. I do optically with a first surface mirror with a graticule, and if I am ambitious, I pull out the test record and do a high frequency sweep to make sure channels are matched.

With an offset tone-arm, usually the azimuth will change as the cartridge is raised and lowered, but the change will be very small over the likely height differences that would ever be encountered while playing, or what you put under the stylus while setting azimuth optically.  Note, I said "usually". For most tone-arms, the pivot angle is perpendicular to the main arm. For some tone-arms, the pivot angle is closer to perpendicular with the offset portion. For some, it is somewhere in the middle. If the pivot angle is perpendicular to the offset portion of the arm, the azimuth will not change as the cartridge is raised and lowered. VTA of course will always change as the cartridge moves up and down.

Civility? are you kidding me? Stupidity is more like it. Cleeds has no idea what he is talking about. He obviously flunked out of geometry in high school. I assume his talents lie elsewhere. At least I hope they lie elsewhere. As for sociopathology. Are we living on the same planet? You do not have to look very far to see some real sociopathology. Just open your door. And, the silent majority is just as bad. They should be chanting at the top of their lungs "all lives matter" not hiding in a corner. 
This is another post that is going to be deleted so you better read it fast. OK cleeds you can have it deleted it was really for your eyes only. Do yourself a favor and download a book on geometry and see if you can find an imagination while you are at it.