Just acquired an Audio Technica AT ML-180 cartridge with broken cantilever and was looking for advice on where to get a new cantilever rebuild and what material to choose from. My preference is a new Boron cantilever but was not sure who, apart from Soundsmith, offers this service.
Also would like to know which is the best tonearm to use for this cartridge once it's fixed. It can either go on my Audiomods Series 5 (eff. mass approx. 11g) or the arm on my Yamaha GT 2000 which has an effective mass of approx. 20g.
This is an old post, but I thought I’d post my MM experience here. In the past three months I bought two MM cartridges, after reading among things the very long MM post here on Audiogon. I first received an Nagaoka MP-500. It was a revelation. It gave a very compelling presentation, different but not inferior to my regular LOMC. Then I found through a Japanese seller a used AT-170ml ofc stylus in a AT-180ml ofc body. I have read on Audiogon that the AT-180 ml is not compatible with lower range styli. But apparently it can be. The sound quality is very rewarding, The sound stage width and depth, the level of detail, and especially the ‘musicality’ of this cartridge is very bit as ‘valid’ as my $5000 LOMC.
If anyone finds an NOS AudioTechnicaAT ML-180 for less than $3500 buy it! Source must be reputable time traveler that specializes in vintage analog equip and is backed by PP. One of the Best ever from Golden Age.
Signet belongs to the Audio-Technica USA Audio-Technica U.S., Inc. is established in Akron, Ohio.
Address: Signet Division // A.T.U.S. (Audio-Technica United States), Inc. 4703 Hudson Drive, Stow, Ohio, 44224
As i said Signet Cartridges (or Precept) catridges has NEVER been available in JAPAN ! Why? For Japanese they are NOT a premium line.
Audio-Technica top of the line Moving Magnet cartridge in Japan is AT-ML180 LC-OFC (Gold-Plated Boron / Micro Line) and later PC-OCC version (Gold Plated Beryllium / Micro Line). For the Japanese this is a "premium" cartridge made from 1987 till mid 90s.
For US and Europe there was a Signet and Precept division by Audio-Technica USA for a limited time only. This is all about marketing. I don’t think that Signet brand was available till the mid 90s.
All Japanese cartridges are signed and comes with individual test results.
There is ZERO information about Signet or Precept "premium line" on Audio-Technica website in the history section. Many cartridges were manufactured by AT for different companies under different names, Signet is nothing but the quality AT made for USA and Europe, but not for Japan for some reason. Signet cartridges are not even listed on the Japanese high-end historical sources where all the premium (made in japan) products are listed.
The answer to all the competitors in the golden age of analog in Japan was not the Signet/Precept division for overseas market, but a genuine Audio-Technica models released for the Japanese market.
Only for your records and @iwasgointo : Signet is a division of A.T.U.A.
In those times A.T.U.S assembled in USA its microphones and some headphones models and marketed all Signet cartridges and tonearms. These ones all were manufactured in Japan as we can read in the cartridges its self. Even Signet division never fixed in USA its cartridges but its policy about was just send to the customers in 24 hours a new cartridge. The Signet top LOMC cartridges came with a final quality " certified " signed by Karazawa San directly from Japan. Signet was the AT premium AT group item division.
I own or owned at least 6 Signet items and first hand information by AT/Signet managers.
Exclussive line of Pioneer,Denon,Sony products are all made in Japan for Japanese market, but the Signet and Precept were invented for American (overseas) market and assembled in the USA, and not available in Japan!
According to a strange logic of Mexican Oracle those japanese manufacturers sells inferior products in Japan, but makes better products for overseas? What??
Same person, who pretended to be "elitist" and "pretty smart" in every post, told us that JVC is better than Victor, he also told us that all his cartridges are tuned (by somebody else) better than the original NOS samples. Would you believe?
The EGO of that person is so high, that he slagged off some amazing cartridges that he raved about only several years ago in his own thread, just because somebody else have them.
And one of his favorite MM cartridges is the one with the most problematic suspension that does not work in 99% (Technics 100c mk4) which he has refurbished with some parts from completely different manufacturer. Well, that's enough.
Dear @iwasgointo : I gave my opinion to you because my first hand experiences with all those 3 cartridges. With out this kind of experiences no one can give you any serious advise.
In the other side Signet was the very high end/De Luxe line in Audio Technica company. Something similar of what happeney with the Elite line in Sony or Exclusive line in Pionner or in Denon too. Yamaha was other of the companies with De Luxe top lines.
As always ignorance speaks by it self.
Anyway, you can try to read information on vintage cartridges here:
@iwasgointo Signet is subsidary of Audio-Technica in USA, while the real Audio-Technica was made in Japan. Signet is not available in Japan. In it’s own country the Audio-Technica is a champ and AT-ML180 OFC and AT-ML180 OCC are unbeatable.
Not sure which AT-ML180 do you mean ?
I will share some more pictures i made with my samples, because i was shocked to discover the difference is not only a coil wire etc.
1) AT-ML180 PC OCC version has a Gold-plated Beryllium Cantilever and this particular model is the latest one, it was discontinued in the mid 90’s. There is a computer code printed on the backside of the box and OCC printed on the frontside of the cartridge, so this is a "modern" version from the 90’s. PC OCC (PURE COPPER by OHNO CONTINUOUS CASTING). Probably the last bunch of AT's beryllium is gone by making this version. Beryllium was restricted to use, no more beryllium cantilevers.
2) AT-ML180 LC OFC version is earlier, it has Gold-plated Boron Cantilever, the box does not have any computer code, this model is from the late 80’s, it’s rare! LC OFC is Linear Crystal Oxygen-Free Copper.
As you can see all models in AT-ML series comes with Gold-plated cantilevers. The gold plating acts to damp what little resonance the boron or beryllium produces.
P.S. As far as i know the Signet cartridges are different in many aspects, for example: Signet Boron cantilevers are not Gold-Plated. Those cartridges assembled in the USA, not in Japan. I don’t think they are better than Made In Japan top of the line models from the Audio-Technica. AT-ML180 is a flagship MM cartridge in Japan in the 80s, remember all the competitors at that time on the japanese market?
And finally: Where is Signet or Precept now and where is the Audio-Technica? Think about it.
I had a long conversation with the VdH representative here in the US a few weeks ago and he explained that Mr VdH performs all the rebuilds himself and that he bought the last remaining supply of Boron tube.
Whilst he did not go into details on the specific step by step approach of how he performs the rebuild, he did explain that a new boron tube cantilever, VdH natural diamond and new suspension would cost me $750 and assured me that Mr VdH does this work himself in his retirement.
I was only passing on this information from a reputable agent of VdH it is not my assumption or opinion.
That’s good, but costly. For anyone who would like to avoid refurbishing of the stylus i can offer fully working AT-ML170 with original ATN-ML170 stylus in perfect condition! Special christmas offer, just one of these from my personal archive.
@nandric but what if they are completery replacing old construction to the new construction (new cantilever, new suspension, everything new, but with top quality parts they got as the manufacturers) to fit in the original plastic holder?
If no one can repare those carts why they are all willing to check them, just to capilalize on inspection fee to refuse the work then and to send the cartridge back to the owner? I don't think so. This is a very well known models and each retipper knows how it works. I have never ever contacted Van Den Hul, but the Expert Stylus are also manufacturer and then i described by problem with AT-ML180 they are willing to check it out. Maybe you're smarter than all of them, but if they are smart enough they should refuse any offers to rebuild those carts from the start. Or they are dishonest and willing to capitalize on that small inspection fee?
What exactly Van Den Hul does with all those p100 mk4 carts is still a top secret, but he did the job and somehow got paid and the owners are happy.
Obviously, my comments originate from 'the nickel seats', so everyone can apply the grain-of-salt factor easily.
In years past, I studied psychoacoustics partly as a hobby, and partly to aid in supplying sound for live gigs. I came to the realization that, despite factual evidence, oftentimes people preferred sound that was not quite the best that could be offered. Their judgement of 'great sound' was mostly subjective and that was that.
Without beating a dead horse, or denigrating anyone's hearing ability, I become amused at the microscopic hair-splitting that arises over tubes vs rods; both of which are an order of dimension smaller than I could ever hear the difference. My personal preference is Beryllium with a Line Contact stylus, i.e. the ATN155lc. I recently acquired an AT150mlx and an AT150sa within a few weeks' time. "Now, I can have a shoot-off between the TOTL AT carts from 3 different eras", I told myself. Current results: The AT155lc is still my favorite, but the other 2 are simply different, not better or worse. Add to that, due to my small listening room, my 3-way column speakers are only 8 feet from my ears, which essentially provide a near-field environment, like a sound studio. Auditioning new components or vinyl is also dependent on what part of the day it's done in. Personally, I also have to factor in whether or not I've eaten recently and the effect low blood sugar has on my ability to process information.
I love facts and information and charts just as much as the rest of you 'audioholics', but I need to remind myself frequently that my musical enjoyment is not a laboratory pursuit, rather a respite from a day in a life.
Dear @ateal: Thank's. Stupid people always exist since the human been exists.
Northwest as VdH are cartridge builders with all the know how and skills to rebuild cartridges, obviously that can't put in exactly the same condition the 180 as an original one.
The Lyra designer here and in other threads already left very clear how cartridge manufacturers works and its advantages against re-tippers.
Now, the more important issue is that you are really happy with your 180/150. Just stay that way till you find out a better cartridge for your system and music/sound priorities.
Btw, if can be true that a tube cantilever can has lower wiegth than same material in rod way exist no true facts that can tell us that hollow cantilevers always are better than its rod ones. Both have its own kind of resonances and we have to think that that hollow/tube or rod characteristics per sé does not defines the overall cartridge quality level performance. Tha's why we have very good performers with hollow material cantilevers and very good performers with rod material cantilevers.
That's the same as when in other thread we analyzed the best material for cantilevers and with scientific facts was not the berylium ( as many people think. ) the best one for that specific work but diamond followed by boron.
@nandric, I had a long conversation with the VdH representative here in the US a few weeks ago and he explained that Mr VdH performs all the rebuilds himself and that he bought the last remaining supply of Boron tube.
Whilst he did not go into details on the specific step by step approach of how he performs the rebuild, he did explain that a new boron tube cantilever, VdH natural diamond and new suspension would cost me $750 and assured me that Mr VdH does this work himself in his retirement.
I was only passing on this information from a reputable agent of VdH it is not my assumption or opinion.
Also I am pretty certain that if VdH can build "The Colibri" they can perform a rebuild of an ML180 stylus.
@totem395 well, it's the same arm, just a bit longer, and both units were available separately, so 7045 or 7082 doesn't really matter - they are both top models. ok
chakster It was top of the line Victor tonearm for their TT-101
Not to be overly nit-picky but the UA-7045 arm was supplied on the N.A. JVC QL-10 and in Japan the TT-101 drive would be found used with the longer UA-7082.
@chakster, I totally agree with you that these rarities with broken cantilevers should be rebuilt by Soundsmith, Expert Stylus, Garrott Bros, VdH etc, and that the results of these rebuilds, whilst not exactly the same as the original, will be great.
My personal situation is that I was very lucky to find a NOS ML150 stylus for $200 within a week of buying the broken ML180 and for me I am happy to use this stylus as it uses very high quality gold plated Beryllium and has provided great results.
If the ML150 did not come along when it did, I would probably be sending the ML180 to VdH for their "Boron Tube" cantilever option and suspension upgrade which I was quoted around $750 incl. shipping and insurance.
So what shell we do if we have those rarities with broken styli ? I actually have AT-ML180 OCC with broken stylus, i also have AT-ML150 OCC with broken stylus from the AT-ML170.
Everything still can be competelety re-cantilevered or fixed by SoundSmith or Expert Stylus companies. The total cost of this job is not so expensive as nandric said, if the cantilever is Ruby by SS.
I’m pretty sure it can be a very good cartridges and there is a chance to find genuine replacement from the lower models to use or to transplant. At least MM styli are interchangeable. Fixing a broken stylus does not mean that you can not use the original stylus as a bonus.
@ronco, sounds like you have a great selection of AT and Signet carts. These vintage MM's are certainly a pleasure to use. I will let you know how it compares to the AT ML180/150.
@rauliruegas, thank you so much for starting the very long and informative MM thread as it has given me the knowledge to seek out and discover these rare and wonderful MM carts. Thank you also for your advice on this thread which has been very helpful. Can I ask what were your observations of the ML180 vs the TK10ML?
@nandric, thanks for the advice on the cantilever rebuild. I agree with you that it is better to use the factory ML150 than to seek out a rebuild of the ML180 as the rebuild will no doubt add too much mass and will not reproduce the same sound as an original ML180. I guess the only way for it to sound exactly like a ML180 is to find an ML180, which I think is impossible.
Dear @ronco: The AT25 is very good performer, I spoke of it 3-4 times in the MM thread but I think that no one was interested on it. Good that you are satisfied with.
The TK10ML is too a good performer and the MK2 is even better for the motor modifications.
Btw, the stylus replacement 15ss is similar to the 20ss, diference is that the 20ss is hand selected .
@ateal, your Signet is diferent performer than your 180/150. Both very good but with differences. You was really lucky to find out that 10ML in NOS condition.
@chakster I understand your preference for authentic items. Earlier in the year, I was able to score a NOS ATN15ss stylus for my AT15sa cart. Wow! What a detailed little beauty! Just afterwards, I found a 1978 AT ad brochure that detailed the stylus/cantilever improvements. Of course, AT encouraged everyone to take advantage of their suggestion. :-) IIRC, my AT15sa cart is an earlier model with 370 mh inductance, unlike the later 450 mh models. Nonetheless, it ranks a very close second tier to my Signet TKs and AT 25.
@ateal
Congrats on the Tk10 acquisition. I will be interested to read your opinion of it. I have one TK9lca, the rest have ATN25 stylii. So, far, I have not been able to hear a great difference between them. Of course, the super-small 2x7 stone will not last as long as a microline, but that's why I've been stockpiling stylii. Personally, I'd rather have a factory replacement than a sleeved and super-glued after market fix.
On a tangental note, I have fallen in love with Beryllium cantilever stylii. Besides the ATN23a, and ATN 25, the AT15ss and AT155lc deliver such an open soundstage, as does an AT9v. I'm listening to "LA 4 Scores!" as I type. Might as well be in the club with them:-)
never tried the AT25, but i got the AT20SLa with genuine 20SL stylus made in Japan in the 70’s. I do not trust the LPgear webstore, because their current AT parts always looks different! The original stylus must have a gold Audio-Technica logo and stamped model number! I know that Audio-Technica AT20SLa stylus comes with Aluminum cantilever (maybe "SLa" means Shibata, Limited edition, Aluminum), but the AT20SL stylus (without "a") probably means the cantilever is not aluminum ("a"), but a much higher graded Beryllium. Anyway i’m just guessing. This is very rare limited edition model (nude Shibata diamond)! The cartridge is so good anyway (SL or SLa). The upgrade of the stylus could be very rare AT20SS replacement.
I've been reading this thread with interest. AT's 'interchangeability' mantra has proven a definite boon for me. :-) In fact, that had me salivating about the 150 cart that chakster has/had up for auction. Looking at the numbers, it appears that a 150mlx stylus/cantilever is a very close substitute. Then, I began to look at my 'be good to myself' purchase of a NOS AT25 with spare NOS stylus and I realized I don't wish to be broke (again) during the holidays.
Of course, that won't prevent me from following this thread ad infinitum :-) Looks like I need to buy more lottery tickets!
Happy Holidays! Merry Christmas! Happy Hanukkah! Don't drink and drive! Live long and perspire!
Dear @jcarr : Thank's to share your knowledge level. You are an expert and we are only audiophiles and some of us even a little " stupid " when we think we know everything in something we know really almost nothing.
Thank's again for put ligth on that matters/issue.
The materials that cartridge manufacturers can ask the cantilever manufacturers to use can either come from the cantilever manufacturers, or be sourced by the cartridge manufacturers. This is true for every part of the cantilever assembly including the cantilevers themselves, coil bobbins, suspension wire, connection fittings, glue, etc.
For example, the high permeability bobbin material that is used in the My Sonic Labs and AirTight cartridges does not come from the cantilever manufacturers, but is rather supplied by Yoshio Matsudaira. As a result, only the cartridges brands that are personally affiliated with Matsudaira have access to this material.
As a second example, when it seemed as though cantilever-grade boron would become extinct, we (Lyra) procured a limited amount of suitable material and delivered it to Namiki, so that the Delos could remain in production without any major changes. Some manufacturers who couldn't source their own supplies of boron were forced to change their cantilevers to other materials such as sapphire.
The same flexibility in sourcing holds true for the processing of materials. If cantilever manufacturer doesn't have access to processes such as diamond-coating, EDM, some forms of annealing, micro photoetching, microscopic laser machining etc., the cartridge manufacturer is allowed to deliver various parts of the cantilever assembly to specialist processing facilities, then return the processed part to the cantilever manufacturer so that they can be incorporated into the cantilever assembly.
Some cantilevers may use relatively standard parts, but others may involve varying degrees of custom design and fabrication (anywhere from a little to a lot).
AT’s hollow tapered gold plated boron cantilever is definitely unique, look at this image and tell me if any other company mouting their diamonds like that. Anything before the AT-ML170 looks way different. The AT-ML150 and AT-ML140 are different, not only because they are not Boron, but also because the stylus tip mounted on the cantilever using different method like all the newer ATs.
P.S. I have never trusted LPgear, they are always selling products that looks different from the original.
AT probably produced its own cantilevers/styli combo's in the past but at present all manufacturer get styli from their supplier. So like the retippers they can ''chose'' what is available . The mentioned ''short supply''' of the boron kinds illustrate this state of affairs. Ergo chakster assumption about ''cantilevers made and adjusted for specific cartriges by the producers'' can't be true.
Dear chakster. Lpgear stylus is not the same as AT 160 ML. AT 160 ml has gold plated beryllium cantilever. In order to compare styli holders their inside-- is more interesting than their front side. One can then see the kind of coupler by each (round or rectangular) and conclude which can be used ''as is'' or would need ''surgury''. That is removal of the stylus from one cart and ''trasplatation'' to the other.
Dear @ateal: Good to hear that kind of quality performance. Btw, the 150 stylus is almost the same as the 180, that so minimum diference in between does not makes diference. Diferences can comes from the less resonant 180 stylus holder and that's why my advise was to try that kind of change where you can always return the 150 to its original stylus holder and this option must be inexpensive. The 180 boron cantilever vs beryllium in the 150 could makes a diference too but not night and day and maybe not better but only a little different kind of sound, maybe we can't even note it.
Very good " advise " from your part to use the 150 in the 180 body. Thank's for share it with us.
The transplant of the cantilever from one series to another series is another question, but those carts are different and specs are different, even the size of the diamond is different as pointed @ateal
I can't remember when I used any MM cart for the last time while trusting my memory at my age is asking for trouble. So I checked some of hose that I still own. AT 160 ML, AT 155 CL and Signet TK 7 LCa. All of them have rectangular coupling and all can be substituted for each other.
AT used two kinds of stylus holder coupling with the body in naive hope to prevent styli. switching: round and rectangular. But they ''forget'' to change stylus construction. On the inside of each stylus holder one can see a small hole with (painted) screw which function is to center and fasten the whole cantilever/stylus construction. By removing the paint and loosen the screw the whole stylus can be ''transplanted'' to the other stylus holder. So what is ''completely different'' for chakster is not for other, more experienced members (grin). But he probably can inform ateal about the kind of mentioned coupling. If those are the same by AT 150/160 and 170/180 than no ''surgery'' or transplant will be needed.
Chakster, i referenced the 160ML which Nandric mentioned and I also know it is not compatible with the ML150, 170 & 180 series. That's why I asked the question for Nandric.
@ateal where did you find the specs for the AT-ML160 model? Can you provide the link to the actual scan of the manual for this model? I’ve never seen any info about AT-ML160, but i have info about all others in this series.
I hope you’re not mixed up the AT-ML160 and AT160ML - these are two completely different cartridges and they are not compatible at all.
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