Audio Technica AT ML-180 Cartridge Advice

@knollbrent  : here it's almost everything on MM cartridges:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc

R.

@knollbrent : It’s not even the best in the AT overall vintage line products. It's a good cartridge.

R.

I never answer /ignorantstupids that never learn. An unfortunatelly the world is full of them.
R.

Dear @lewm :  My past post was addressed to you, I don't know why did not appears that way.

R.

Only for your records and @iwasgointo : Signet is a division of A.T.U.A.

In those times A.T.U.S assembled in USA its microphones and some headphones models and marketed all Signet cartridges and tonearms. These ones all were manufactured in Japan as we can read in the cartridges its self. Even Signet division never fixed in USA its cartridges but its policy about was just send to the customers in 24 hours a new cartridge. The Signet top LOMC cartridges came with a final quality " certified " signed by Karazawa San directly from Japan. Signet was the AT premium AT group item division.

I own or owned at least 6 Signet items and first hand information by AT/Signet managers.

R.

Dear @iwasgointo : I gave my opinion to you because my first hand experiences with all those 3 cartridges. With out this kind of experiences no one can give you any serious advise.

In the other side Signet was the very high end/De Luxe line in Audio Technica company. Something similar of what happeney with the Elite line in Sony or Exclusive line in Pionner or in Denon too. Yamaha was other of the companies with De Luxe top lines.

As always ignorance speaks by it self.

Anyway, you can try to read information on vintage cartridges here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-needs-a-mm-cartridge-type-when-we-have-mc


R.

Dear  @iwasgointo  : The Signet TK10ML MK2 or the AT24 outperforms the 180.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ateal: Thank's. Stupid people always exist since the human been exists.

Northwest as VdH are cartridge builders with all the know how and skills to rebuild cartridges, obviously that can't put in exactly the same condition the 180 as an original one.

The Lyra designer here and in other threads already left very clear how cartridge manufacturers works and its advantages against re-tippers.

Now, the more important issue is that you are really happy with your 180/150. Just stay that way till you find out a better cartridge for your system and music/sound priorities.

Btw, if can be true that a tube cantilever can has lower wiegth than same material in rod way exist no true facts that can tell us that hollow cantilevers always are better than its rod ones. Both have its own kind of resonances and we have to think that that hollow/tube or rod characteristics per sé does not defines the overall cartridge quality level performance. Tha's why we have very good performers with hollow material cantilevers and very good performers with rod material cantilevers.

That's the same as when in other thread we analyzed the best material for cantilevers and with scientific facts was not the berylium ( as many people think. ) the best one for that specific work but diamond followed by boron.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ronco: The AT25 is very good performer, I spoke of it 3-4 times in the MM thread but I think that no one was interested on it. Good that you are satisfied with.

The TK10ML is too a good performer and the MK2 is even better for the motor modifications.

Btw, the stylus replacement 15ss is similar to the 20ss, diference is that the 20ss is hand selected .

@ateal, your Signet is diferent performer than your 180/150. Both very good but with differences. You was really lucky to find out that 10ML in NOS condition.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @jcarr : Thank's to share your knowledge level. You are an expert and we are only audiophiles and some of us even a little " stupid " when we think we know everything in something we know really almost nothing.

Thank's again for put ligth on that matters/issue.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ateal: Good to hear that kind of quality performance. Btw, the 150 stylus is almost the same as the 180, that so minimum diference in between does not makes diference. Diferences can comes from the less resonant 180 stylus holder and that's why my advise was to try that kind of change where you can always return the 150 to its original stylus holder and this option must be inexpensive. The 180 boron cantilever vs beryllium in the 150 could makes a diference too but not night and day and maybe not better but only a little different kind of sound, maybe we can't even note it.

Very good " advise " from your part to use the 150 in the 180 body. Thank's for share it with us.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Now you are not speaking of inductance any more, good. Mass? yes: different cantilever/stylus holder and some internal arregments. But, what's your point? what do you do not like on my advise to send the cartridge to Northwest?, it's only an alternative suggestion, that's all.

@chakster : My review was for the AT 20SS that's superior to the one you named and that I owned too.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ateal: Forgeret what @chakster is telling about the so very low differences in the inductance on the 150 vs 180, this is not what makes the differences in performance. The 150 stylus replacement you have is similar as the 170 and difference with the 180 other than the stylus tip ( non significant ) size is the cantilever but boron and beryllium are very good.

Before you decide to send the cartridge to Vdh ask to Northwest what I told you, you can’t lost nothing if you do it and I think that could be really inexpensive to do those changes.

In the other side, you have no problem with your 10 grs. tonearm for the 180.

regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ateal: Thank's to your patience you found out that 150, good .

Now, you can make serious quality improvements in what you have: as you can note the cantilever/sttylus holder build material is not exactly the same in the 180 and 150, where the 180 is less resonant and this means lower signal degradation vs the 150. It makes a difference for the better.

So you have the alternative to send both to Northwest for he can make the change in the 150 to the 180 holder or better yet that Northwest takes the cantilever/stylus from the 150 and put in the 180 holder.
Of course that you have to ask Northwest if they can do that work, my take is that they can. Only an opinion.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ateal: Good that’s working fine and as you said it will be better with more play hours.

Now, the 150/170 has almost the same stylus tip than 180 and this makes almost no difference per sé, even the 180 is more demanding on its VTA/SRA set up.

The inductance issue that chakster is talking is not a day and nigth difference, those 3 models shares same output level. Compliance is the same and this point is important. So your cartridge is almost a 180 and the only way to compare it vs the original is to have the original and attest what you really are losting with the 180/150 combination you are playing rigth now.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ateal: I can't understand why you are taking so much trouble with that AT. If I was you I just put on sale and at the same time look for other MM alternatives that can be vintage or today ones that are very good performers.

If you insist in your cartridge refurbish then Northwest named by @chakster  is the better quality option to do that work.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @ateal: I think your today tonearm will works fine as a fact you can't say after the re-building which will be the new compliance figure or its VTF range.

I was a fan of the 180 but not now. In the other side and with a vintage cartridge when the cantilever, stylus tip shape and dampers are changed the cartridge will performs with different performance quality levels.

So you can choose boron but you can choose by material too that by its characteristics is better than boron. It's just an election, both can sounds good but I don't know for sure wich one can have higher quality levels.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.