Never seen AT-ML160, it can be closer to AT-ML150 which has a beryllium cantilever, the 150 is also very good cartridge, but not as good as the 170.
AT-ML180 is completely different compard to all of them.
The problem with the 160 models is that you will not find it in the catalog where this number simply missed, there are 140, 150, 170, 180 in comparison chart, but there is nothing about 160. Maybe the 160 was not for Japanese marked and that’s the reason i do not see it in the catalogs?
I still have my second spare of the AT-ML170 in fully working condition if anyone need it.
However, the price for refurbishing of the broken needle is not equal to the price of the perfectly working sample of AT-ML170 or AT-ML180 cartridge. If the AT-ML170 normally goes for $750+ in working order, the AT-ML180 goes for over $1000. While the re-cantilevering starts from $250 (SoundSmith) or $400 (ExpertStylus). |
The original is gold plated hollow pipe boron with tiny nude microline stylus, i have a few samples of perfectly working at-ml180 and at-ml170. I also have a few broken samples of both, one of them is here. I think the best option is Expert Stylus & Cartridge Co. service in UK, they are very good in communication and very well organized, reasonable prices (imo). Contact Email: info@expertstylus.co.uk Here is the info i got from them: "We shall need to carry out a detailed examination and assuming we find the cartridge repairable, our charges to carry out a complete overhaul to include materials as necessary and auditioning will be between £291.00 - £330.00. With the work carried out we aim to return the cartridge to as near new condition as possible. Should we find the cartridge in relatively good order, apart from a badly damaged cantilever or the stylus to be showing excessive wear, our chatges will vary between £120.00 - £180.00." I use my AT-ML180 and AT-ML170 on Victor UA-7045, Lustre GST-801 and Reed 3P "12 Cocobolo. |
Yeah, closer to the original, unfortunately hollow pipe boron is not available anymore in the world (which makes the original cartridge so special).
I would use boron with microline/microridge type of diamonds. They call it paratrace. See below what they said:
"We manufacture cantilevers in aluminium, boron and sapphire. I would also advise the Paratrace profile diamond is possibly the most advanced diamond produced world wide." -ExpertStylus |
I am precise as much as your best MC cartridge, lol Even AT-ML150 cantilever is Gold Plated too, but it’s not Boron, it’s Gold Plated Beryllium. Here is a picture of my ex AT-ML150. So i just don’t know anything about your 160 model (can be beryllium or boron). But the next model in official Japanese catalog is AT-ML170 with different cantilever and different style of mounting stylus tip on this hollow boron cantilever: https://scontent-amt2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20139640_1791997270818432_584247051679766313_n.jpg?oh=... Why the AT-ML180 stylus/cantilever is different? The stylus is 0.08mm (for others it's 0.1 mm). Vertical tracking angle is 23 degree (for others it’s 20 degree). |
@ateal I'm gonna send one of my Stanton CS-100 WOS to Expert Stylus in the future to get Paratrance diamond and new cantilever. Then i will be able to compare it to the original Stereohedron. For rare Stanton top of the line cartridge owner the Expert Stylus was numero uno service. That's how i know about them, loads of feedbacks online. Now we have Nandrik as an advocate of Expert Stylus. The low pound is maybe the only one good thing about brexit. If you will send them your Audio-Technica let us know. Then i will think about mine But do you have the original Audio-Technica as the reference to compare the sound? If not then you never know what you got after refurbishing. There is nother service in UK called NordWest Analogue, but the guy never responded to my request regarding Audio-Technica and his prices is higher, you can try
www.northwestanalogue.com/
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Allaerts MC 2 - is that the one which cost like a used car ?
Well, thanks for the offer, but i will stick to my working AT-ML180 OCC
It was a genius combination to end up with 300 quid offer for AT-ML160, someone should buy it to compared to 170 and tell me the truth. |
I just want to add one very important thing you have missed. The generator of your AT-ML180 is electrically different from all previous models, so it is not designed to use styli from lower models. Most likely those styli will never sound correct with such a different generator. The inductance of AT-ML180 is different than AT-ML170, 160, 150, 140.
If your generator is AT-ML180 the replacement stylus must be ATN180ML.
But if your generator is not the AT-ML180 then you don’t have any problem to chande the styli, because 170,150,140 generators are the same (electrically). However, for the same reason you can't use ATN180ML stylus from AT-ML180 cart on any other cartridge in AT-ML line.
So i think the only option is to refurbish your existing stylus by someone who understand that at-ml180 is very special cartridge. |
@rauliruegas well, it's not easy to sell broken carts even if the repair service available, to find MM cart equal to AT-ML180 is not easy, especially for the price for repair (about 350 pounds).I'm not sure why do you think one service in UK is better than other. Personally i have never use repair service in UK. But Nordwest Analogue ignored by request made with his contact form on their website. But Exdpert Stylus repliad to all my messages immediately. As far as i know the Expert Stylus is manufacturer with 40 years of experience in refurbishing. Not sure how old is Dominic (Nordwest Analogue), but what is good is that anyone can see his portfolio, i believe his service is very good, but for premium prices. @nandric playing re-tippers by ourself is not for everyone to transplant the cantilever from one to another cart. I think @ateal looking for easiest solution. But the manufacturer voiced their top model with their top generator, there are many internal difference in the generator, but even vertical tracking angle of the cantilever itself is different. Swapping 170 styli with 180 styli is not a good idea. But no problem to swap 170 and 150/140. Anyone can find comparison chart of data for AT-Ml series in the gallery here. |
@ateal the guy you are quoting know nothing about the difference between two models if he think that 180 is Beryllium (in fact it is Boron). However there is a comment about the difference between 180 and all others (which is correct). I think i already explained why 180 is a different cartridge, look at the data.
I have a few 170 and 180 cartridges and i can swap the styli between them, they will fit, but they will not sound good/correct if the generators are swapped (they are different). 180 is a stand alone cartridge. So you can not upgrade the 170/150 cartridge with ANT180ML stylus and vice versa.
You need a retipper who really understand the subject, not just gluing whatever stylus/cantilever of this at-ml180 cartridge.
Also i would never trust people who deal with Andy at Needle Clinic, i saw his woks on the pictures and it’s very bad quality, awful. So the advice to deal with Needle Clinic is a very bad advice.
You have mentioned Garrott service in Australia, you should know that the brothers are no longer available, but the company has a good reputation. They can provide Micro Tracer or Micro Scanner diamonds along with Fritz Gyger (FG) diamond - this is a very good option if they can offer a Boron Cantilever. |
@nandric BTW beryllium is better cantilever material than boron. Even better than ’’gold plated boron ’’
I can say for sure what is better in terms of cantilevers (i like beryllium on some carts, i like boron on others, and even aluminum on some of them), but i can say for sure that AT-ML180 is better than AT-ML170 and all previous models i have tried. The AT-ML180 was released in 1993 and it was the last and ultimate cartridge in this series. The AT-ML170 was made in the 80s (nearly 10 years earlier than AL-ML180). Earlier version have been discontinued when AT-ML180 was made. I don’t really care what retipper can do with MM cartridge, but that’s the only way to get an old cart back to life (when the original stylus is not available). Remember SoundSmith and his Grace refurbishing (so many people use that option to replace the OG cantilever). And they can do that. It’s not the original sound, but it will work. Using another stylus from lower model can be an option, but in case with AT-ML180 is not the best solution. I think it’s better to buy the whole cartridge + stylus (aka the AT-ML15, 160 or more expensive AT-ML170) than tryin to buy just the stylus from inferior model to make sure it’s not equal to the performance level of the original stylus of the top model supposed to be used with this cart from the start (just a waste of money). The AT-ML150 is not a rare cartridge and the price is not high, so why not just buy the whole cartridge+stylus? The AT-ML180 deserve a much better stylus (the original, but it’s impossible to find separately from the cart). If someone can refurbish ATN180ML (Expert Stylus can do that, they told me) i don’t see the reason not to do so. p.s. I would not advice people to use for example the stylus from Technics EPC 100c mk1 on Technics EPC 100c MK4 even if they are interchangeable mechanically. It make no sence (imo). |
Well, i don't make such conclussion about cantilevers apart from the cartridge this cantilever designed for. As i said i have all types of cantilevers on my original cartridges (beryllium, sapphire, boron, titanium, aluminium etc) except maybe a diamond cantilever. Who cares about cantilever materials alone? It's much more important in which cartridge and how it was used by the original designer. As stated in my ad this AT-ML170 can be refurbished by SoundSmith with his Ruby cantilever with Nude Contact Line stylus just for $250 in the USA. So it is not necessary to pay 350 pounds for Boron with Paratrace from Expert Stylus. Of course it's up to the owner. Ateal already have his cartridge and there are many ways to refurbish it with different materials from the different retippers in the different countries.
Buyin another fully working cartridge like your AT-ML160 is another option, but even taking this option the owner of the broken AT-ML180 can refurbish it to have another cartridge on hands, not just throw it away for nothing. I also have another AT-ML180 OCC with broken cantilever and that's why this case is interesting for me.
We're all know what we can try to find the original styli or inferior styli from the lower models, but this is not the case here! |
@ateal great, if you like the ANT150ML stylus on lower inductance AT-ML180 body then you will be blown away buy the quality of the original ATN180ML stylus if you will ever find it, the difference between 150 and 180 is huge (owned both). ATN170ML is also much better that 150 in my opinion. I hope you will find them. My first cart in this series was the AT-ML150 and the sound quality was very good, then i decided to look for higher models (170 and 180). Luckily i got them, even some spares. BTW i have the original AT-ML150 generator as a spare for your ATN150ML stylus (they are made for each other, while the AT-ML180 is not perfect match for your stylus because of the different generator :). The broken ATN170-ML stylus for experiments also included. I wish someone can rebuild this and share the experience. If rebuild version can suprass the AT-ML150 then it worth it. The mid mass tonearm is OK for them. |
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If you have the 180 generator then all you need is a better stylus/cantilever designed for this generator.
I do not have my old AT-ML150 on hands now, but i have AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 - my top cartridges, i just love them, they do everything right compared to many other serious cartridges of much higher price. Last night i played records with AT-ML180 on Victor UA-7045 tonearm against FR-7f on Lustre GST-801 tonearm with Luxman silver SUT. I have not used AT-ML180 for a while, but the sound of than Audio-Technica is just spectacular! I can not say the same about AT-ML150, it was good, but not so impressive. Cartridges are impressive of not, but it's important to make comparison. Two days ago i just put together my new stands for 2 Luxman PD-444 aroung a rack with different phono stages, sut, headamp. Now i can use 4 tonearms, must be some fun for the winter. |
You’re right, it will be a different cartridge anyway, but i will tell you that replacement styli for AT-ML170 and AT-ML180 are impossible to find even in Japan, i have never seen any of them in the past 3 years, only with used cartridges. That’s the problem, the stylus for AT-ML150 is easy to find, but the styli for higher AT models are impossible to find NOS or used. |
@ateal
Can I ask what determines the frequency range, for example 5 to 40,000. Is it the cartridge body/generator or is it the cantilever/stylus?
Both! It's how they are working together. Once i replaced styli between high and low inductance generators, the stylus from high inductance and high output Stanton does not sound good on low inductance and low output Stanton. It was a total mismatch! So when you swap the styli it is not that easy if the generator and stylus are not designed to work together and not tuned by the manufacturer for each other. |
Victor UA-7045 is superb tonearm, i like everything about this arm and i have many tonearms to compare, i think this is the most underrated tonearm ever (which is good for the buyers). It was top of the line Victor tonearm for their TT-101 turntable and X-1 / X-1II cartridges for a perfect match with Victor headshell. I use Grace HS-6 Carbon-Fiber headshell with my AT-ML180 now. I don't kno any better tonearm for the price of Victor UA-7045 (they are under $700 in perfect condition, those with bended counterweight must be avoided). There is an additional counterweight to use with heavier cartridges, but i don't use MC carts on this tonearm. I have a spare of this tonearm btw.
The compliance of the Victor X-1II:
*Dynamic Compliance (@100Hz): 12cu
At 10Hz this dynamic compliance would be about 20cu
The compliance of the AT-ML150-170-180:
*Dynamic Compliance (@100Hz): 10cu
At 10Hz this dynamic compliance would be about 17-20cu.
(*100Hz figure must be converted to 10Hz figure, the easiest way is to multiply it on 1.7 or on 2)
P.S. I know people use Audiomods Arm mostly for low compliance Denon 103 and some other MC cartridges. The Audiomods is actually a modified Rega tonearm. But since the AT-ML180 is not a high compliance cartridge i think you can use it on Audiomods.
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There is another great Audio-Technica cartridge you may considering. It's AT20SLa from the late 70's. This model with beryllium cantilever is a killer. The compliance is higher than AT-ML series. I've come across Dlaloum statement about that old model. Raul also reviewd it back in the day on audiogon. Model AT20SLa LIMITED EDITION cartridges are individually nand-selected for all parameters, including flattest possible response to 50 000 Hz! The limited quantity of cartridges thus obtained represent "the best of the best!"
"This is a really top notch cartridge, one of the very best, and was a competitor to the V15V in its day... It is a high compliance design... VERY highly recommended!! Original styli are getting scarce. This cartridge ranks up there as one of my absolute favourites". -Dlaloum
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Raul, it was perfectly illustrated above with my pictures to show the difference in the stylus tip mounting method and the cantilever materials of the AT-ML150 and the AT-ML170 models. The frequency response is 5Hz - 40Khz vs. 10Hz - 30Khz. The 150 is no way identical to the 170 in terms of sound and the price difference between those two models is huge on the used market today. The AT-ML170 is much closer to the AT-ML180 than to lower AT-ML150. I will remind to other about this old TAS review: http://www.regonaudio.com/Stanton881AudioTechnicaATML70.html"
Kavi Alexander, auteur of the remarkable Water Lily Acoustics series of analogue vinyl discs, is monitoring disc production by comparing test pressings to the master tape. What cartridge is he using? Another moving magnet, this time the Technics EPC 100, Mark IV, unfortunately no longer available in the US. But he describes the Audio Technica ATML-170 as very similar, and very close to the actual sound of the tape. In this comparison, he says, virtually no moving coil does so well; most have seriously apparent colorations. " The difference in inductance between AL-ML180 and all others is 310 ohm vs 730 ohm. It’s more than a double. And the angle of the tip/cantilever is 23 degree vs. 20 degree. The mass of the 180 cartridge is a bit higher too (7,5 vs. 7g). As for your review of the AT20SLa with ATN20SS (instead of ATN20SL or ATN20SLa) stylus then we’re speaking about the difference ONLY in the cantilever material, there is no difference in generator at all! But you’re sayin’ 20SS is superior, so the same conclusion must be applied to the defference between AT-ML models especially if the difference is not only the cantilever, but inductance, stylus tip mass and more in case with AT-ML180 versus all others. |
@ateal where did you find the specs for the AT-ML160 model? Can you provide the link to the actual scan of the manual for this model? I’ve never seen any info about AT-ML160, but i have info about all others in this series.
I hope you’re not mixed up the AT-ML160 and AT160ML - these are two completely different cartridges and they are not compatible at all. |
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AT’s hollow tapered gold plated boron cantilever is definitely unique, look at this image and tell me if any other company mouting their diamonds like that. Anything before the AT-ML170 looks way different. The AT-ML150 and AT-ML140 are different, not only because they are not Boron, but also because the stylus tip mounted on the cantilever using different method like all the newer ATs. P.S. I have never trusted LPgear, they are always selling products that looks different from the original. |
@ronco haha, nice Still have it for christmas never tried the AT25, but i got the AT20SLa with genuine 20SL stylus made in Japan in the 70’s. I do not trust the LPgear webstore, because their current AT parts always looks different! The original stylus must have a gold Audio-Technica logo and stamped model number! I know that Audio-Technica AT20SLa stylus comes with Aluminum cantilever (maybe "SLa" means Shibata, Limited edition, Aluminum), but the AT20SL stylus (without "a") probably means the cantilever is not aluminum ("a"), but a much higher graded Beryllium. Anyway i’m just guessing. This is very rare limited edition model (nude Shibata diamond)! The cartridge is so good anyway (SL or SLa). The upgrade of the stylus could be very rare AT20SS replacement. |
So what shell we do if we have those rarities with broken styli ?
I actually have AT-ML180 OCC with broken stylus, i also have AT-ML150 OCC with broken stylus from the AT-ML170.
Everything still can be competelety re-cantilevered or fixed by SoundSmith or Expert Stylus companies. The total cost of this job is not so expensive as nandric said, if the cantilever is Ruby by SS.
I’m pretty sure it can be a very good cartridges and there is a chance to find genuine replacement from the lower models to use or to transplant. At least MM styli are interchangeable. Fixing a broken stylus does not mean that you can not use the original stylus as a bonus.
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@totem395 well, it's the same arm, just a bit longer, and both units were available separately, so 7045 or 7082 doesn't really matter - they are both top models. ok |
@nandric but what if they are completery replacing old construction to the new construction (new cantilever, new suspension, everything new, but with top quality parts they got as the manufacturers) to fit in the original plastic holder?
If no one can repare those carts why they are all willing to check them, just to capilalize on inspection fee to refuse the work then and to send the cartridge back to the owner? I don't think so. This is a very well known models and each retipper knows how it works. I have never ever contacted Van Den Hul, but the Expert Stylus are also manufacturer and then i described by problem with AT-ML180 they are willing to check it out. Maybe you're smarter than all of them, but if they are smart enough they should refuse any offers to rebuild those carts from the start. Or they are dishonest and willing to capitalize on that small inspection fee?
What exactly Van Den Hul does with all those p100 mk4 carts is still a top secret, but he did the job and somehow got paid and the owners are happy.
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@ateal I had a long conversation with the VdH representative here in the US a few weeks ago and he explained that Mr VdH performs all the rebuilds himself and that he bought the last remaining supply of Boron tube.
Whilst he did not go into details on the specific step by step approach of how he performs the rebuild, he did explain that a new boron tube cantilever, VdH natural diamond and new suspension would cost me $750 and assured me that Mr VdH does this work himself in his retirement.
I was only passing on this information from a reputable agent of VdH it is not my assumption or opinion. That’s good, but costly. For anyone who would like to avoid refurbishing of the stylus i can offer fully working AT-ML170 with original ATN-ML170 stylus in perfect condition! Special christmas offer, just one of these from my personal archive. |
@iwasgointo Signet is subsidary of Audio-Technica in USA, while the real Audio-Technica was made in Japan. Signet is not available in Japan. In it’s own country the Audio-Technica is a champ and AT-ML180 OFC and AT-ML180 OCC are unbeatable. Not sure which AT-ML180 do you mean ? I will share some more pictures i made with my samples, because i was shocked to discover the difference is not only a coil wire etc. There are two different versions of them (read on the boxes): 1) AT-ML180 PC OCC version has a Gold-plated Beryllium Cantilever and this particular model is the latest one, it was discontinued in the mid 90’s. There is a computer code printed on the backside of the box and OCC printed on the frontside of the cartridge, so this is a "modern" version from the 90’s. PC OCC (PURE COPPER by OHNO CONTINUOUS CASTING). Probably the last bunch of AT's beryllium is gone by making this version. Beryllium was restricted to use, no more beryllium cantilevers. 2) AT-ML180 LC OFC version is earlier, it has Gold-plated Boron Cantilever, the box does not have any computer code, this model is from the late 80’s, it’s rare! LC OFC is Linear Crystal Oxygen-Free Copper. As you can see all models in AT-ML series comes with Gold-plated cantilevers. The gold plating acts to damp what little resonance the boron or beryllium produces. P.S. As far as i know the Signet cartridges are different in many aspects, for example: Signet Boron cantilevers are not Gold-Plated. Those cartridges assembled in the USA, not in Japan. I don’t think they are better than Made In Japan top of the line models from the Audio-Technica. AT-ML180 is a flagship MM cartridge in Japan in the 80s, remember all the competitors at that time on the japanese market? And finally: Where is Signet or Precept now and where is the Audio-Technica? Think about it. |
Exclussive line of Pioneer,Denon,Sony products are all made in Japan for Japanese market, but the Signet and Precept were invented for American (overseas) market and assembled in the USA, and not available in Japan!
According to a strange logic of Mexican Oracle those japanese manufacturers sells inferior products in Japan, but makes better products for overseas? What??
Same person, who pretended to be "elitist" and "pretty smart" in every post, told us that JVC is better than Victor, he also told us that all his cartridges are tuned (by somebody else) better than the original NOS samples. Would you believe?
The EGO of that person is so high, that he slagged off some amazing cartridges that he raved about only several years ago in his own thread, just because somebody else have them.
And one of his favorite MM cartridges is the one with the most problematic suspension that does not work in 99% (Technics 100c mk4) which he has refurbished with some parts from completely different manufacturer. Well, that's enough.
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Signet belongs to the Audio-Technica USA Audio-Technica U.S., Inc. is established in Akron, Ohio. Address: Signet Division // A.T.U.S. (Audio-Technica United States), Inc. 4703 Hudson Drive, Stow, Ohio, 44224 As i said Signet Cartridges (or Precept) catridges has NEVER been available in JAPAN ! Why? For Japanese they are NOT a premium line. Audio-Technica top of the line Moving Magnet cartridge in Japan is AT-ML180 LC-OFC (Gold-Plated Boron / Micro Line) and later PC-OCC version (Gold Plated Beryllium / Micro Line). For the Japanese this is a "premium" cartridge made from 1987 till mid 90s. For US and Europe there was a Signet and Precept division by Audio-Technica USA for a limited time only. This is all about marketing. I don’t think that Signet brand was available till the mid 90s. All Japanese cartridges are signed and comes with individual test results. There is ZERO information about Signet or Precept "premium line" on Audio-Technica website in the history section. Many cartridges were manufactured by AT for different companies under different names, Signet is nothing but the quality AT made for USA and Europe, but not for Japan for some reason. Signet cartridges are not even listed on the Japanese high-end historical sources where all the premium (made in japan) products are listed. The answer to all the competitors in the golden age of analog in Japan was not the Signet/Precept division for overseas market, but a genuine Audio-Technica models released for the Japanese market. |
