Audio Technica AT ML-180 Cartridge Advice

The (gold plated) hollow pipe boron cantilever no retipper can

offer. I sold my AT 170 and 180 but still own 160. I am not sure

but think that 160 has the same cantilever/stylus combo as 170

and 180? Perhaps  an second hand AT 160 is an better option?

To glue the present  boron rod on the restant of the AT 180

cantilever an aluminum ''bridge pipe'' need to be glued above

both parts. For +/- 300 GBP pretty expensive solution while the

result is questionable. I hope chakster can answer the question

about AT 160?

Dear chakster, You should be more precise. We are talking about

cantilever/stylus combo by AT 180, 170 and 160. The carts can

be different but why should the styli be different? The cantilever in

my AT 160 is also gold plated boron pipe. That is the reason for

my guess that all 3 are the same. How is 180 stylus ''totaly different''?

The styli by AT have nearly identical construction.

Dear chakster, Before you make jokes about my ''best MC cart''

you should check tech. specs . of my Allaerts MC 2 . You will

not believe what you see. Now regarding our advice to ateal.

My (pre) assumptions are that no retipper can provide the right

cantilever/stylus combo as well that the AT 160 can be get for

about 300 GBP. In this context I think that AT 160 is his best

option. If ateal lives in Europe he can borrow my AT 160 to try.

If the postage to Russian Federation was cheaper you could

also and at last learn about AT 160 (grin).

My dear Slavic brother. For this kind of money I can buy a new

car. Your Lada. You deed not ,alas, grasped my offer. My proviso

was that you should pay postage of my AT 160 both ways (grin).

Your theory about dependance of cantilevers from cart inductance

is very curious. If the stylus holder does not fit the body of the

AT 180 than I hope that ateal can transplant the cantilever/stylus

combo from AT 150 to AT 180. The needed practice should be

done with cheap AT styli. I described the ''procedure'' elsewhere

(MM thread).

Dear chakster, from our discussion about Technics 205 series and

AT 180, 170, etc. series I can only conclude that you never

 disassemled any of those styli. If you deed you could see how

those are constructed and then ''grasp'' what an retipper can and

not can do. I retipped only one of my all MM carts. The reason is

the way this is done. Symple gluing the ''tubed'' aluminum cantilever

above the ''restant'' of the original cantilever.

All AT ''styli'' have the same construction. But the cantilever is

fastened and centered with the tension wire to the tube behind.

All MC carts use tension wire to connect the moving parts with

the damper and the rest of the generator . But by MM carts this

tension wire can't be removed or repaired. So the so called

''retip'' is limited to gluing an new cantilever above the rest of

the ''old cantilever''. Consider than the problem from retipper

side. A boron ( rod) cantilever can't be glued on the restant

of the old cantilever without the help of an aluminume tube as

bridge between the parts. Besides whatever boron kinds can't

be connected with the tension wire behind the original cantilever.

So advising co-members about possible retip without any idea

about what can be done and what not is very curious act based

on assumptions or rather speculations. The involved efforts

and costs  are then for the member who asked advice.

Because all AT styli have the same construction substituting the

cantilevers is obvious possibility. To prevent this AT invented

different coupling system between the stylus holder and the

cart body. Those can't be switched as ''stylus holder''. But by

removing the whole cantilever/ damping combo from one cart

and transplanting to the other this ''coupling problem'' can be

solved. BTW beryllium is better cantilever material than boron.

Even better than ''gold plated boron '' (grin).

Dear chakster, ''I don't really care what retipper can do with MM

carts''. But how then  can you advice whomever about the retip

possibilities? You are ''swimming'' between possible and ideal

according to your own ''perception'' or rather ''preferences''. But

why should anyone care for your preferences? There are many

MM carts for which the original stylus is impossible to get. So

your ''ideal'' is irrelevenat. The owners of such carts will try to

find whatever substitution they can . Your advice not to use

the ''lesser than ideal'' stylus make then no sense. There are

obvious contradictions in your argumentation. Your own reference

is 145 euro for such ''substitution stylus''. But any retip with boron

cantilever + whatever stylus is above 400 euro. You are not in

the position like your brother to buy a new car instead of Allaerts

MC 2 (grin). I just checked my AT 160 and am stunned with the

quality of the cantilever/stylus quality. In no new cart at present

irrespective of price such quality can be seen. All those boron

rod cantilevers look the same. Your comparisson between

beryllium and boron is very curious. It looks like: ''John is

the tallest  guy in our class but Peter is even taller''.

Either beryllium is better material for cantievers than boron or not .

 If so then boron can't become ''better'' because chakster think so.

''Well , I don't make such conclusion about cantilevers apart from

the cartridge this CANTILEVER designed for''. A cart designed for

a specific cantilever? Are you shure  about that chakster?

By way of introduction:

Skeptic nr.1 : ''One thing, my dear, is for sure: nothing is for sure''.

Skeptic nr.2: ''Are you sure about that?''

You own some of those Glanz carts. I own MF 31 l, 51 L and 71l.

They all have the same generator but different cantilevers. The

same apply for the Astatic (100, 200, etc.)

You can buy (in theory) Koetsu Coral stone with diamond and

boron cantilever. I own Sony XL 88 D (D= diamond  cantilever)

and XL 88 with boron cantilever. But the most abundant choice

for his customers was made by Klipsch. ''His'' (from Japan) MC

cart could be bought with aluminum, saphire, boron and diamond

cantilever. In the same cart ! The idea being that different customers

may prefer slightly different timbre.

If your theory was ,say, correct for all those different cantilevers

different carts should be made.

There is this metaphorical saying that ''the whole is more than its

parts''. Metaphorical because we would need some other

number theory accoding to which 2+2= 5 .

What is meant is that the whole is complex and parts simple(r).

The whole constructed from different parts is called ''composition''

this in contradistinction to a heap of stones which is called

aggregation. In this sense a cart is an composition by which one

can't sellect one part and call this part ''essence'' of the thing

composed. This is an old and autdated methodology ascribed

to Aristoteles. Sugano san, Ikeda san, Takeda san, Mori san

and ''our'' Van den Hul, Lukatschek ,etc. are a kind of artist

who composed works of art with their cartridges.

The retip of the top AT carts ( top Signets included) make

only sense if the stylus only need to be changed. Either because

the stylus is lost or worn uit. The cantilever can't be changed

because those are fastened to the tension wire which is in

the tube behind the cantilever. One should use an cheap AT

stylus/cantilever combo to experiment. The whole combo can

be removed from the stylus holder by losening the small screw

on the inside of the stylus holder. Then one can see the whole

construction which is identical by all AT carts. From such experiment

one can also deduce if the reverse job can be done. If one is

not sufficient skilful for the job one should not try.

The suspension (aka ''rubber ring'') is just in front of the stylus

holder tube. Its hardness determine compliance. When the whole

cantilever/stylus combo is put back in the stylus holder the

mentioned small srew should be fastened after the centering of

the stylus is done.

For stylus only retip I can recommend Expert stylus (+/- 200GBP).

ateal, what has the effective mass of the Victor UA 7045 to do

with the question if Audiomods arm is better than Yamaha?

I owned this Victor 7045 and think that  if you own this arm you

don't need to search further.

I was serching for some info attributed to ''our'' J Carr. His

contribtutions can be find by his name. I found, so to speak,

an ''gold mine'' of objective information. According to this informotion

changing cantilever and/or suspension will ruin the cart. Stylus

only retip is the best option . This will no ruin the cart.

So all advices about retips and where those should be done are

given by persons who have no idea what they are tolking about.

Dear @ateal: forget what Raul advised you about Vdh or Northwest.

Look at your AT 180 stylus or rather cantilever. Only an aluminum

cantilever (tubed) can be glued on the restant of the original

cantilever. All present boron cantilevers are rods so the only way

to put this kind of cantilever on the restant of the old is to use

an aluminum tube as bridge between the two parts. Retip with

boron cantilever + whatever stylus cost +/-500 euro . With Raul's

and chakster advices you have no idea what to ask either of them.

How can you give whatever order to them with advices which only

assume that both retippers can do ''something'' with AT 180?

BTW the new boron cantilevers are not only rods but also thicker

than the original (tubed) boron cantilever by AT 180. Considering

the fact that an new AT 180 stylus is impossible to find not to

mention eventual price you already have the best solution possible.

But if you own whatever MC cart in need for an new stylus and/or

cantilever you can then ask both retippers for the involved price

(grin). MC's  are different animals in this context.

Ateal, What do you mean with VdH ''boron tube'' and ''suspension

upgrade'' for $ 750? Assuming some hazy ''upgrade'' without precise

knowledge what you are talking about is curious ''advice''.  The

suspension by AT styli consist of the ''rubber ring'' in front of the

stylus holder + tension wire inside the tube behind the cantilever.

The whole stylus/cantilever construction is fastened with the small

screw inside the stylus holder. No retipper whatever can do anything

to ''improve'' suspension by AT styli. A boron tube can eventual be

glued on the restant of the old cantilever but ''above'' what can

such boron tube be glued if the whole cantilever is broken of?

Guessing like Raul and chakster do is not an responsible way to

give advices.  There is no shame involved by confession to don't

know. For Raul and chakster obviously a big problem. Do you

want to join them in this attitude?

ateal, ''I was only passing on this information from an agent of Vdh

it is not my assertion or opinion''.

''Also I am pretty certain that if Vdh can build 'he Colibri' THEY can

perform a rebuild of an ML 180 stylus.''

The first and the second statement are contradictory. Your believe

in what Van den Hul or ''they'' can do is not relevant for the ''details''

involved by this repair. Chackster and I have had similar dispute

about Technics 205 series ''suspension problem''. Both the AT and

205 use ''tension wire'' in their styli which is usual my MC kinds but

rare by MM kinds. My conviction based on my information and

experience (disassemling the whole construction) is that ''tension

wire'' in the MM carts can't be changed or fixed. By AT carts this

tension wire is connected with the back side of the cantilever while

by 205 kinds  the part with tension wire need to be removed in order

to change the ''ruber ring'' (aka suspension) because this ring is

fastened behind the round magnet on which front side the cantilever

and tension wire on its back side are fastened.

By MC kinds the tension wire need to be (first) removed because

the suspension is behind the coils and does not belong to ''moving

parts''. After the installation of the new suspension the same

wire need to be fastened, centered and tighten a new. One

can usual  see those 2 or 3 screws for this purpose on the generator

bodies.

dear chakster, ''the if-then'' assertions are not facts. Facts are

true statements or propositions. My suggestion was to remove

the whole cantilever/stylus from one AT and install in the other.

No need for philosophical disputes by my proposal which nearly

everyone can do by himself. I am surprised that you never try

at list to investigate the stylus construction by AT carts. There

are cheap samples while no academic education is needed to

perform this task. Your curiosity should be more worth than ,say,

$50 for an ''cheap'' AT sample. Those offered ''for parts'' can also

be used for this purpose. So the price is not an argument against.

So my argument is: see or look for yourself. After that you can

propose your own finding about ''fixing'' the suspension by

AT or 205 kinds. Even with tubed boron cantilevers which Vdh

as a capable business man had stored in his stock the question

how to connect this ''impressive'' cantilever to the tension wire

behind the cantilever is not clear, at least not to me.

By 205 one can see those small screws on the pipe behind which

function is the same as by MC carts. To center, tighten and

connect the tension wire with the cantilever. As you could see

at the end of the tube the tension wire is glued. There are no such

screws by AT kinds. So I have no idea how tension wire by AT

are fastened. As a big admirer of the new and old Grace carts

you should be even more motivated for this investigation because

those also use tension wire. J. Carr  explained elsewhere in this

thread their function and advantage.

''It depends'' as we are used to say in general but in this case

it depends from the description which can be one way or the other.

I would say ''disputes'' instead of ''banter''.  The other thing is that

''valuation statement''  can't be true or false. The old Romans

already stated ''de gustibus non est disputandum''.

I admire J. Carr as anybody else. There is no question about

his competence regarding cartridges. But he knows what is

available to him as, say, producer. This does not necessary

apply for the retippers. From my friend Axel Schurholz  I know

what is available and what not to them. I ever asked Carr for

the address of Japanese ''jewel producers'' with intention to

order styli for Axel. I never got any answer from them. So Axel

was not able to provide styli which he was not able to get.

This also apply for ''dempers'' (aka ''rubber rings''), coils ,etc.

So all those advices about what which retipper can do are

based on sand. Or, to put this polite, on their assumptions.

The hypothetical statement like ''If Van den Hul can produce

Colibri then ''certainly'' (?) he can fix any cart whatever''  is

like any hypothetical statement; it can be true but also false.

The same apply for the assumption that Van den Hul himself

does all the repairs. Van den Hul owns many companies

and earns the most of the money from his ''wire company''.

His wire are also used in the aircraft industry so he spends 6

months per year in Ukraine in this connection. He produce

one cart per week in order to keep his capability  in good

condition. He lacks the time for more. But in some ''parallel

world'' which is different from the known one other things may

be possible then in the one we know.