Attention Horn Owners

@sinner I don't have Aric, but do have 2A3 stereo amp from Whammerdyne (pair of 2A3's, single 6DJ8) driving my PAP Trio15 Horn1's. It gets warm and 2A3's heat up, but not like larger tube amps. Only 4.3 watts. Doubt it would cause heat in room to be uncomfortable.

@sinner My setup is all tubes. I have the Aric Audio Motherload XL and the Radu Tarta 45 SET. I live in (hot) New Orleans, and you are welcome to listen any time you are in the area, and do not notice any change in room temperature. I don't know about the 2A3, but the Radu 45 SET I was running (selling it as Radu built me a custom 2 box 45) as well as my new Radu 45 give off very little heat. Sometimes,  I don't see the glow of the tubes in the day and hold my hand above them to see if they are on. Not a great test as  I don't really feel much.  The 2A3 is twice the power of the 45, but at 3.5 watts, I dont suspect there is a whole lot more heat vs my setup

SET and horn lovers have to admit this presentation may not be for everyone. Generally speaking, this is a performers in room presentation, very immediate, up front, sort of like first few rows at concert. Some find this too up front, in your face presentation, may prefer being more distant to performers, instead of bringing performers into your room, you're taken to the recording venue. I've heard differing presentations that were quite compelling, there is no objectively superior presentation. we like what we like.

@sns wrote:

SET and horn lovers have to admit this presentation may not be for everyone. Generally speaking, this is a performers in room presentation, very immediate, up front, sort of like first few rows at concert. [...]

Generally, yes, but as you may imply it's not necessarily a trademark of horns to sound this way. I've found a range of in particular smaller horns covering the midrange on up to be relatively beamy or "hot" in their presentation, and most who listen to horns are treated to smaller variants of horns. Horn material characteristics also play a part here, the amps used, the horn profile, etc. Big, larger exit midrange horns that also act like horns and control directivity in their lower spectrum down to 500Hz or lower, depending on mentioned factors, sound less like horns and more like large panel speakers - with an added sense of physicality. They're present sounding, but from the plane of the horn front and back, not in front of it. Few however would consider horns that large for their home environment (and the midrange horn is the least of it compared compared to non-truncated horns from the upper bass on down), which is a shame. Seeing a 3' deep diffraction horn of pro origins with a mouth area of 2' x 3' may give most the association of it being terribly up front sounding, but it can be anything but. 

From your profile I see you're no stranger to horns (lovely setup, btw.). Does your own setup of modded Khorns + tube amps fall into the category of horn sound you describe?

I completely agree with sns. I MODIFIED MY KLIPSCHORNS IN 2018 with the complete Volti Audio package, including the Crites 15 inch wolfers. WOW! The difference is to a different level! I will NOT go go back!  

Easiest tweak for taming the treble in my Cornwall 4’s - applying 3/4 inch diameter punches of black Gorilla Tape to the midrange horns. The black makes them disappear atop the plastic of the horn, and experimentation with quantity and placement is infinite. Hole punch required. On my mid horns 4 circlets - one for each horn quadrant - solved everything.

Having heard them, I wonder just how close they are sound wise to the Lucera or Rivals. Greg will say come on down and have a listen! lol. Great guy. I liked the modified Klipsch a lot. 

With the modded Khorns hard pinned info really extends into room, but at the same time I have a wonderfully deep center sound stage which can also extend out into room. I've had narrow baffle box loudspeakers in the past which made speaker disappear, with the large Khorns this really not possible. One of the great benefits of my mods is that I've been able to achieve much better time alignment of drivers. With the free standing mid horn and tweeter I can set tweeter baffle back from front face of speaker, result is high freq much more in balance with mids, when Khorns were stock sound stage was much more in your face and hot. I can also toe in or out both mid driver and tweeter without disturbing the corner placement/seal which is required for the folded horn to perform best.

No doubt horn material matters greatly, far more natural sounding vs. plastic or the metal mid my Khorns originally had. Shape of horn also matters in that it directs the sound, tractrix far superior to exponential. 

Finally, in order to achieve a more refined or natural sound quality from horns a quality crossover is required, using quality caps, inductors, resistors if used and wire can go a long way in achieving this. 

As for amps, pre's, I think SET is great match for most high efficiency horns although push pulls can be very nice as well. SET may be more immediate/up front but the lovely 300B with no negative feedback and it's even order harmonic distortion is sublime.

Meant to say wood horns.

Depending on your budget Klipsch heritage series work well with tubes. I’m using Rogue Cronus Magnum III with Cornwall IVs, very good match. 

@toddalin 

Best they have ever heard?

They haven’t heard mine, 😂!

Then again, I’d never make such a claim about a particular component, only about a system.  Each component functions within the context of the system within which it resides. Weakest link rules. 

See the about page theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

I like the Klipsch heritage speakers even though they don't come close to some custom systems using truly great vintage compression drivers.  Drivers of this quality haven't been made since the 1960's.  Klipsch makes do with what one can find of modern drivers at modest prices.  Likewise Volti, and I like what Volti does even more with modern drivers. 

But, for my taste, a truly great horn has to use some of the old compression drivers and horns.  This weekend, I heard a just finished custom speaker that utilizes a Western Electric 713A driver and a Japanese horn from the 1950-60 era.  The woofers and tweeter are modern, the crossover is new, but filled with vintage parts.  The internal wiring is, I believe 1940-50 Western Electric wire.  The crossover point is lower than the original Western Electric specification, but, the builder said that because this speaker is not being used as the sole speaker in a theater (original use of the driver), it can be pushed down a little.  The sound was fantastic--a surprising amount of detail and texture to instrumental sounds came through without the sound being thin and harsh like some other "detailed" speaker.  It had all of the other characteristics of a good horn, except for the enormous sense of "scale" that one only gets with truly enormous speakers (these were quite compact by horn speaker standards); still they are better than most in this respect as well.  

Makes me wonder if replacing some of the internal driver wire in the Cornwall's with some vintage "Western Electric" wire might be interesting. 

The only way to know is to do a trial.  Any change in sound could be for better or worse, depending on one's taste and the set of other components.  If you are really able to get vintage Western Electric are, you are looking for old, multi-strand wire with cloth insulation.  I know a builder who, when he finds the stuff he likes, will pay well north of $10k for a 6" spool of the stuff.  This builder generally builds with Western Electric or Audio Note speaker wire, and both options are very expensive.  

@sns wrote:

With the modded Khorns hard pinned info really extends into room, but at the same time I have a wonderfully deep center sound stage which can also extend out into room. I’ve had narrow baffle box loudspeakers in the past which made speaker disappear, with the large Khorns this really not possible. One of the great benefits of my mods is that I’ve been able to achieve much better time alignment of drivers. With the free standing mid horn and tweeter I can set tweeter baffle back from front face of speaker, result is high freq much more in balance with mids, when Khorns were stock sound stage was much more in your face and hot. I can also toe in or out both mid driver and tweeter without disturbing the corner placement/seal which is required for the folded horn to perform best.

What you describe confirms what I’ve expected, that the performance of the Khorns can be seriously "elevated" upgrading the midrange horn/driver and tweeter ditto - incl. of course the crossover. I previously owned a pair of Simon Mears Audio Uccello’s, which are an homage to the Klipsch Belle speakers built completely from ground up with CNC-machined stacked plywood Tractrix horns, B&C midrange (DCM50) and tweeter (DE10) drivers, the cast frame 15" Crites woofer (1526C) and (modified) ALK crossovers. Lovely speakers and beautiful craftsmanship. They produced some of the best midrange I’ve ever heard and that tuneful front horn-loaded bass that’s a treat, but eventually the truncated bass horn resulted in upper bass colorations (and the lack of proper physical height of the speakers made for a fairly low acoustic center), which - initially just as an experiment - made me seek another, actively configured main speaker option. However, modified Khorns would be another great path to pursue, though I’d go with active config. that also offers delay settings and minute frequency response corrections/notches and other PEQ’s.

No doubt horn material matters greatly, far more natural sounding vs. plastic or the metal mid my Khorns originally had. Shape of horn also matters in that it directs the sound, tractrix far superior to exponential. 

Solid wood is one of the best choices of material for horns, for sure. Apart from the horn profile, as mentioned earlier, its size (in relation to the profile) is also an important sonic determinant and factor and what it means for proper power response and energy coherency, not least in the vital crossover region centered in the lower to central mids. 

Finally, in order to achieve a more refined or natural sound quality from horns a quality crossover is required, using quality caps, inductors, resistors if used and wire can go a long way in achieving this. 

In addition to ways to tweak the overall nature or gestalt of the sound with the filter components and cables used and their own, specific sonic particularities. 

As for amps, pre’s, I think SET is great match for most high efficiency horns although push pulls can be very nice as well. SET may be more immediate/up front but the lovely 300B with no negative feedback and it’s even order harmonic distortion is sublime.

The 300B’s were a great combo with the passively configured Uccello’s mentioned above. With my current, actively config. high eff. speaker setup I prefer topologically similar (though power differentiated) class A/B SS amplification by MC² Audio from the top all the way down into the subs. 

@phusis Never considered going active although sounds interesting, I stuck with the Type A shallow slope design, reportedly most basic and best sounding of the shallow slope. I considered the ALK steep slope design but a good mid driver can extend freq. I hear you on physical size of speakers affecting image and sound stage dimensions and size. 

I use the Duelund tin plated copper in my point to point wired crossover, this after researching it vs the Western Electric wire, very satisfied with natural timbre of this wire.

The newest Khorn and Lascala are optionally available with a crossover for tri-amping......plus other changes/updates. I feel they should offer the newest of the two with the simple, single amp crossover. Simplify the connection for a single amp setup, which is fine for me. 

@unreceivedogma 

Agreed that the weakest link rules.

But the weakest link is the speakers because nothing upstream that is of decent quality and functioning properly will "color" the sound as much.

Roy Delgado over at Klipsch is doing good things with the newer Heritage line.

@SNS

The wire I bought in quantity on Ebay is tinned copper with the oiled cloth cover.

My impression of Dueland - at least in previous times - was that they were using the same vintage wire but selling it with connectors attached and in custom lengths.

@bolong I've always purchased the Duelund in bulk from PartsConnexion.

I suspect the main advantage of so called "Western Electric" wire is that is has had a very long and rigorous break-in doing its duty in various industrial or semi-industrial settings for long stretches of time.

Ebay 10 gauge Western Electric