I wont deny that it could be proper gain staging that affects the signal chain in some set ups. |
I have definitely noticed most systems have a unique sweet spot in volume, typically not low volume. This isn’t psychological. Some do sound great at low volumes. I am confident that the differences among systems exist. However, I have been fortunate that I have lived in places where I could play at any volume I want… so I never did a systematic investigation. I bet a lot of folks from Europe and Japan have. |
Yes, I think this is more about ears than equipment per se. Mine are not nearly as fine-tuned as most of the people here. By the way, I’ve been playing with my new toy and it’s fun. Where I will end up in terms of settings or usage is still up in the air. |
Outside of Fletcher Munson, there is no reason a system should so different within its power bandwidth. I think a lot of the impressions one gets of a system sounding different with level is really related to distortion, power compression or mismatched driver efficiencies. The bass falling off at lower level is obviously Fletcher Munson ear behavior, and inexperienced listeners do not think about this effect when testing systems. Its exactly how a demos can used to make a listener think there is "more bass" on one vs the other by having levels ever so slightly different (say a 1/2dB or so) that you don’t notice the overall level difference, you notice the more bass and to a lesser extent, more highs.
From working with engineers for 30+ years, the good ones, I can tell you from observation and personal experience "critical listening" is a very complex skill that is difficult to master. Always remember one simple fact: the first sound of any comparison is the reference. |
You know, some systems sound fantastic at all volumes. My current system does sound very good at low volumes. But I have never gotten a handle on what the parameters are of good sound at low volumes… is it mostly the speakers… or what. But over the years I have heard some professional reviewers discuss it. Might do some Google searching and see if you can find useful info. |
OP here.
JON, your understanding of this matches my understanding of this, and I appreciate your efforts to keep comments impersonal. By that, I don’t mean to vilify anyone who is taking a different approach. I’m just commenting on what I appreciate.
I am in no way trying to comment on any objective reality in relationship to acoustics or speakers or ears or anything along those lines. I have no expertise with things like that. I’m working on the basis of my own ears and my own speakers in my own room and making surmises about what’s going to work best for me, hoping that others have been down this road and can share things that I will find helpful.I understand that there are various elements in this topic that are debatable and that debate is often fun or Educational, so I don’t mind if anyone wishes to continue this thread along these lines because that has value for them, if not for me. |
I'm trying to make an abstract argument rather than personalize this and I don't think my personal experience is all that relevant. I've got a few systems. I've got ATC 110s in a family room system, Thiel 3.7s in what I'd call a den I guess, and also some Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands I use as computer speakers.
How do you properly solve the problem of speakers not sounding right because they're not being played at accurate volume? Our ears don't hear all frequencies equally so what sounds right at 90db sounds bland at 80. I agree that EQ is a good way to mitigate this. My Thiels sound better at low volume than my ATCs. I'd guess because there are design tradeoffs between speakers that need huge dynamic range and those designed for moderate max volume.
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Avoiding questions asked by posing other questions is typical on these forums. |
How do you properly solve the problem of speakers not sounding right because they're not being played at accurate volume? |
BTW, another equalization option is a very good sounding 6SN7 based line stage with useful equalization, especially in the bass region and fun spatial controls both of which can be bypassed. Black Ice Audio Fusion F360. They also offer these circuits in a stand alone device that can be inserted in your tape loop, Foz SS-X.
Just be aware that such things are not approved by the audio police. |
Who are they? Which ones have you auditioned, set up and powered properly?
Exaggerated bass at any volume, which will compromise sound quality at higher volumes, is not the solution.
For those that can not or will not solve the problem properly, I would much prefer a good equalizer which can be adjusted at low volumes than a speaker that is designed to have exaggerated bass at low volumes. |
I don't mean they lack accurate bass, just that they sound like they do at low listening levels. It only makes sense for accurate reproduction at inaccurate levels to sound inaccurate. It is inaccurate. You can make it sound more accurate by countering the level distortion with frequency response distortion but true accuracy would include accurate volume. A lot of speakers have some exaggerated bass, at least at low volumes, and they sound better at low volumes because of it. |
"The downside to low level listening to accurate speakers is a lack of bass."
I respectfully disagree. I suppose you've auditioned all the "accurate" speakers available today. Just because good active speakers, made by folks that also serve the recording industry (pro audio) have much greater dynamic range potential than most conventional speakers does not mean that they all are lacking at low listening levels.
It seems to me that the definition of high-end audio is the most accurate reproduction of the source at least it was at the beginning. Of course that reveals any issues upstream. Rather than addressing these issues, the speaker is blamed for being "too accurate".
So many spend lots of money on less than accurate speakers with anomalies to suit their taste. Low cost, distortion generators can do the same for far less money.
If your taste is less accurate, euphonically colored sound, nothing wrong with that. My argument would be, you don't have to spend a lot of money to achieve that, really a fraction of what a highly accurate system that excels in tonal correctness, presence and unrestricted dynamics would cost.
When you have this problem with "accurate speakers", the most likely cause is a poor amplifier speaker match and/or improper speaker/listening position set up.
Yes, I can see how the OP's speakers could sound the way he describes. But being intimately familiar with the current revision of this speaker, it's definitely not the fault of the speaker. If you have the original version, then yes, the tweeter was less than optimal and that is where a device like the Loki (very cost effective and well designed) may help. Personally I would prefer a Manley Massive Passive but that's like 100 times more expensive. |
The downside to low level listening to accurate speakers is a lack of bass. It only sounds right if you're listening at levels closer to realistic for a real performance. |
Thanks, all. The unit is supposed to arrive today so I will play around with some of the variables.
To reiterate, I have two concerns. One is low listening levels and the loss of bass to my ears as a result. Across the room from the speakers, a wall of windows have got to be Brightening the sound quite a bit.. We will see… |
Correction, looks like you are trying to tame the highs…. I’ve had the smallest version of your speakers, the little babies, but they had the same tweet andI would never describe them as bright,
sometimes an overlay aggressive midrange will make a listener think “bright”.
whats your toe in like? How close are they to the walls?
I’d still try pointing them directly at you and pushing them closer to the wall behind the speakers. This will increase bass and highs and can tame an aggressive midrange giving you more of what you are looking for. |
M6, did you get the loki plus, new from
schiit? They’ve been out for 6 months (?) and still are. I wouldn’t hold my breathe…
Are you trying to tip the highs up? Point the ATC’s directly at you. |
Ideally you will connect the Loki between your preamps outputs and your power amps inputs. This is fairly simple if you have separates. If you have an integrated, you will need to use the pre outs and ins if your amp has them, otherwise you will have to connect it between the source and amp. After connection you just adjust each knob until you reach your desired sound profile.
The Loki appears to be a very wide band, very low "Q" tone control comprised of four filters, that per the diagram on the units front face plate appear to be shelving style filters. IOW each knob is going to cover a very large range of frequencies. |
Congratulations. I bet this is exciting. First, you want to listen to your new speakers. If you are interested in good sound avoid any equalization. Start by setting up your system and making sure all components are fully broken in… 200 hours of music play.
Typically speakers and listening position is an equilateral triangle to start with. You want the speakers away from the back and sidewall. The amount of toe in is really important. You might Google toe-in for your speakers, but start with them pointed at you and incrementally move towards alignment perp to wall. There is a best angle such that the sound stage is open and central image is solid and stationary. After set up you want to know the sound and then you can work on specific problems.
You want to take time. You spent a lot of money… the difference between a well set up system and one that is not is huge!
Then you can adjust the room. A rug in the right place, wall hanging, or even acoustic panel can completely change the room. There are key points for reflections that you may be able to dampen. I am guessing you have a glass wall behind? On wood floors, boxy room. These can best be dealt with by adjusting room acoustics.
The basic tenant of good audio is to never fiddle with the signal… so, no tone controls, no extra switches or adjustments as they all introduce noice and fowl up the signal.
Hope this helps. |
Look at Fletcher-Munson.
Adjust by ear.
I presume that is why you're getting it. |
