Are Pass Labs amps probably the best ever you can buy ?
I’m a big Pass fan... but to simply say they sound the best period, is just silly.. Paired with what ? Since I haven’t heard every amp out there, I can’t say what’s best.. but I’m sure there are other amps out there worthy or equal to pass.. Currently I’m using Pass gear and loving it.. but to say it’s the best out there wouldn’t be fair.. but I have to say.. Pass gear is engineered and built very well ! good value for the money and great sounding in my system !! I find the Pass house sound to be a bit warm of neutral, which works well for me.. but others may find it to sound “colored”. So it all depends on your system and tastes.. Glad we have so many choices !! |
Hi, Excuse me, i'm new, i did'nt introduce myself... I'm french, so excuse me for my english langage... My system: Preamp lampizator subminiature Sony ta-5650 amp Focal sopra 1 speakers Marantz cd7 Dac DIY Nos tda1541A S1 (for tv) Atelier acoustik OCC/silver teflon HP O2A and Furutech power cables Espace musical muse 1 RCA cables I compared my system with a lot of amps, including the luxman L507x, i always preferred the sony, at the same time for the natural, smooth and the vivid sound! Now, with the lampizator preamp, the sound is even more natural and organic! |
"Rotel", IMHO is not really in the same (class) as the "Pass Labs", or "First Watt", amplifiers, which is Mr. Nelson Pass other company. I still have eight or nine of them "The Rotel's", as they do have their uses. But there is simply a huge difference in not just the design, but also the build quality and I am not even mentioning the sound differences! "Rotel" is no slouch for sure! But NOT anywhere near a Pass amp for sure! I will say one thing though, A few years ago I needed/wanted a third "Pass", "X-350", to match my other two in a tri-amped system I was building that had a calculated 6Ohm load from the (64), transducers per side. "(42 tweets), (14, 8" mid's), and (8-12" Mid-woofers). The eighteen ten inch sub's were separate with their own amplification. But I could not find a decent example of another X-350 anywhere!. "At that time there was a waiting list for even a "Used", X-350". And I heard this from a few different places I did business with at that time. So, to hold me over I acquired a used "McIntosh MC-402". I thought the power matching between the two amps would be fairly close. With the Pass amp at 350wpc. and already quite a "Legend", for the power it put out. And the Mac at 400wpc., with similar specs but, I had never heard a word about this amp. Man-o-man was I wrong! That "Mac-402", very literally "Scared", me. Which was a new experience in my book. out of me as soon as I powered up the rig. I didn't melt anything...."I could just imagine in my minds eye the (42)-Mag-planar tweets I had it driving just melting their ribbons"! And I could just tell that the amp was barely even breathing. And when the same load was applied to an X-350? They had it running pretty hard. That "Mac", amp barely ever became warm while I owned it. Part of that difference was of course in the design parameters with the Pass amp going farther in "Pure Class A", while the Mac's auto-formers made the load just easy as it could be. At least that's what I thought after calling and mentioning it to "Ken", at "Pass Labs". And blindfolded I could not have told the difference between the sound of those two amps either. And believe me....I am NOT a "McIntosh" fellow at all really. Too "Clinical", is how almost all of the Mac's sound to me. But everyone is different! |
None better than Pass at it’s price point. SQ, craftsmanship, attention to detail, build quality, all top shelf components. The best customer service in the business. My ears have not heard anything that sounds "better" for the money. I’m sure there are certainly amps that sound as good, but "different". When you get into this price range it’s just a matter of preference and not so much what is "better". It's what your ears prefer. Speaking of ears, my ears also really like the Diablo D300. |
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One of the best solid state amps could be the new Rotel Michi https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHWfEVn4--M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pNh-CyLR5U Get a Rotel Michi preamp and Michi amps with some B&W Nautilus Flagship speakers and be done for life ! Yes..the Nautilus is that good even today ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6zif_UGftc |
cakyol: I am not seriously looking for a new amplifier. I have had our ML-333 since it was new in 1995 and have no plans to replace it. However, just for fun as a background task, I try to keep up on recent developments so that I have a plan in case the ML-333 fails beyond repair and needs to be replaced. |
I love my Classe' CA M600 monoblocks. They were good enough for Abby Roads Studio. They have a few years on them but hard to beat. Its a too bad what happened with Classe'. Pass does a great job. It boils down to what sounds right in your system with your acoustics. As Salon 1 Audio mentions, certain amps sound different with different speakers. That is a vital part of the equation. |
Really when you get into high end amps Pass, Gryphon, Luxman, Simaudio, T+A, Hegel, and other similarly priced components it's really about what your ears like. It's preference, not necessarily fact. I mean some like chocolate ice cream, some like vanilla, some like the color blue, some like the color red. One man's thin sounding component is another man's open, air-ey sounding component, one man's smooth top end is another's unexciting, dull top end, one man's strong bass is another's boomy bass, one man's warm mids is another's too dark toned, one man's smooth top end is another's rolled off top end. If we didn't hear things differently we'd all be buying the same exact components. We (myself included) seem to have great difficulty putting sound into words with any kind of accuracy. And then we'll have comments like Brand A will "blow the doors off Brand B", or "Brand A blows Brand B out of the water"...whatever the heck that means. I personally find these kinds of descriptions useless. It tells me nothing about the components. We need to get used to the idea that we very often don't hear things the same. From a strictly physiological standpoint I don't know why we should think otherwise. Our hearing apparatus and biology/physiology is completely different from one day to the next. Here's a news flash...it's OK to have a preference and for other people to have theirs. It's OK to be absolutely convinced your set up sounds "better" than anyone else's or for me to feel my system is the best sounding out there. And there are an infinity of variables that are obvious and some not so obvious to consider when auditioning, comparing, and evaluating components...the room and how a specific brand and model interacts with it is one major factor regarding how you hear things. I mentioned both physiology and biology above as factors governing how we hear and process sound. Have you ever listened to a system one day, come back in a day or two and something about your system sounds different? This sometimes happens to me with my guitars and amp. Aural memory can also be a factor...you listen to your system and it goes into your memory and a week later you listen again and it sounds different. I traveled to Suncoast Audio about a year ago to audition several top notch amps for my new system. But my aural memory of that experience is starting to fade to the point where I can't remember the fine details of how each amp sounded. I just remember which ones my ears liked most. There are just so many factors to weigh when it comes to making value judgments about audio components. But we sometimes have a tendency to form snap, knee jerk, opinions without being honest and objective with ourselves. Anyway, just my 2 cents. |
From one point of view, they may be the best, but I would not use them because they would break my home power budget. The specifications for our speakers recommend an amplifier in the range of 125-250 watts, although more or less can suffice. (I currently have more!) So, I started looking for suitable Pass amplifiers and looked closely at the XA100.8, which is “only” 100W. It is a mono amp, so I would need two: https://www.passlabs.com/amplifier/xa100.8 When idling, two of these together would draw a total of 900 watts from the wall. Our home solar and battery system do not provide all of our power needs, but through most of the year, the system allows us to totally avoid buying on-peak power, which costs about 8x as much as off peak power. The large household power users (e.g. pool pump) are all scheduled for late night so that they can use off-peak power from the grid. Air conditioning runs when it needs to throughout the day, which can’t be helped. When AC and the pool pump are not running, the house consumes about 500-600 watts (standby appliances, stereo system, refrigerator, ceiling fans, computers and network.) If I were to add two XA100.8’s to the mix, turned on, this typical power consumption would more than double. The Pass amps would be the third largest power-user, after the AC system and the pool pump. This would destroy the strategy for avoiding on-peak power purchasing by a large amount. Now, I could leave the amplifiers powered down and power them up only when I needed them, but:
I’m afraid that, for me, this puts the Pass products in the
same categories as LP’s and tube amps as being more trouble than they are worth,
especially when equal performance alternatives are available. So, I wish many
more happy years for our existing amplifier so I can delay indefinitely what will be a very
difficult choice. Perhaps I am just not that dedicated of an audiophile.
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I took an entire year to research my new audio system. I put many, many, hours into reading reviews and forums culminating in an actual all day audition of some of the top amps in the world. I visited with many very knowledgeable and experienced audiophiles. I even flew from my home in Iowa to Sarasota, Florida to audition amps. I auditioned amps by Pass, Gryphon, Naim Hegel, VAC Audio, Simaudio, and Luxman among others. I finally picked the Pass Labs INT 250 and couldn't be happier with my choice. I'm pairing it with some superb sounding Harbeth Super HL 5+ 40th Anniversary model speakers. I'm also running the INT 250 with an MSB Discrete DAC with dual power supplies and Roon Nucleus. I can't imagine a better sounding similarly priced system. I'm sure there are systems that sound as good, but just different. I very, very, highly recommend the Pass INT 250. Mine is just now really getting broken in and is sounding sublime. I also auditioned the INT 60 and was similarly impressed with it. BTW, the heat issue with Pass amps is, IMHO, totally irrelevant. I can lay my hand on my INT 250 all day long and never get uncomfortable. It's really a non-issue. It gets "warm" but definitely NOT hot. If you want to feel hot, lay your hand on a tube amp. That's HOT. An INT 250 might raise the ambient temperature of a small room a degree or two in warm climates. But so will some other amps. Especially tube amps. My listening room is about 12' x 27' and I don't even notice the room heating up any when my amp is on. But, after having said all the above, use your own ears and audition any amp you're interested in. It'll be time very well spent. Lots of great choices in amps and other components out there. |
The "Nelson Pass", designed amplifiers I have tried. "And I believe that I have tried most if not all of them" at this point, Are not "Just a cut" above other SS amplifiers out there. They are WAY above the others. Even the old "Denon" mono-blocks are nice! But the A-400 is probably my favorite. For many reasons including but not simply because, of the sound. And It still runs great! It is now kept in an all "Threshold", tri-amplified system. People keep bringing up, "Giant Killer" types out there. I have yet to meet one. And I have searched, and will continue to do so. But anyone looking to just, "Best", Nelson Pass designed amps? I do not think it can be done. Different perhaps, but better? Or even near as nice? THAT, is a tall order to fill! |
i’m curious on pass resale. the last time i purchased a pass amp securing a pretty deep discount was not difficult( 25-30 %off). has that changed? if big discounting is occurring resale usually takes a hit. the unit was a 250.8 as i recall. no motive here. just curious. it ‘seems’ that pass is widely used by agoners as well as ps audio. is discounting a factor in these two brands having so many users? i’m guessing the sound quality is pretty good too. |
Better value and better sounding than the Nakamichi PA7 [Pass designed] amp is the Usher R1.5 which is also a Nelson Pass design[a Threshold Stasis 200 copy]. The SIT 3 might be the best sounding of all the Nelson Pass designs but you would want to compare it with the Bakoon amplifiers which have a somewhat similar approach.The Bakoons are the best sounding SS amps I have heard .Not quite Kondo Ongaku quality but getting there. |
Steve McCormack’s new amps and preamp in my opinion are better. www.smcaudio.com. Sanders sound Magtech. LUXMAN IS ALSO GREAT there are a lot of great amps. like ice cream, too many flavors! |
OP: your original question is silly at best i’m sorry to say. simply too many great choices to nominate one as best. have you heard Dartzeel, JRDG, Luxman, Vitus, Agostino, ML, Krell and on and on. That’s the fun of it; so many great options. When you throw “used” in the mix the door opens very wide. |
I would say that Pass Lab's products are certainly up there with the best of the best. There will be an infinity of opinions regarding what is "the best". There are currently just so many top shelf products out there. I just auditioned seven of the best integrated amps in their price range and I would be extremely happy to own any of those seven amps. They ALL sounded different but amazing in their own way. The Pass Labs int 60 was one of those amps and, IMHO, it sounded absolutely incredible. So did the other amps. But the int 60 was one of my top two picks after a full day of auditions. |
I had to check the date to be sure this wasn't an old, resurrected thread. There are a number of amps at the Pass price point I like better, and even a number of less expensive amps I like better. I agree that Pass sounds different, and for the right person with the right speakers they make buyers very happy. From what I've read, of those who have been generous enough to share with me their buying history and experience, the speakers can make a big difference as to whether Pass is "the best" or not. Tannoy is one of the brands I hear Pass lovers like to use, so this may be a good guide. My advice to anyone looking at Pass is to use your own ears and compare them with Ayre and Luxman. These three amp brands sound very different, so they'll give a buyer a really nice survey of the land. |
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I liked the recent interview with Nelson Pass in Stereophile (I think it was Stereophile)...his constant experimentation with his gear and sharing designs with the DIY/Burning Amp crowd is cool. He built a gizmo to add in "even harmonic distortion" to an amplifier (He gave some of these things away at a "Burning" gathering) as part of a theory that that he feels makes music sound more musical...or something...all validating the mysteries behind my single ended tube amp sounding better than any SS amp I've heard. Pass is the rare open book designer who writes his own manuals and shares pretty much everything he does and is funny and seemingly less of an egomaniac than many great designers out there. |
@wiredaudio So you like the Pass 250.5 better than Classe CA2200 ? I ask because I own the CA2200 and like it very much.. No one talks about it at all despite the good reviews.. Which leads me to maybe try something else now because, just maybe, the other stuff is better ????? (Pass, Ayre, Bryston, and everything else in the same tier).. anyone else can answer if they have experience with CA2200 .. By the way the Classe beat Parasound A21 in my system, my ears.. |
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OP, if you have $15k for only the amp(s), then you should consider the GaN-FET class D amps from AGD Production, Vivace monoblocks. They are $15 per pair. Here is their URL link: http://agdproduction.com Two forum threads are devoted to GaN-based Class D amp tech. See these URL links for further discussion: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/gan-based-class-d-power-amps https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/which-class-d-amplifier-ps-audio-ghent-nord-merrill-or-other |
From 7-3-18 to 12-31-18, I designed and developed a SE two stage directly-coupled tube amp for my ALTEC speakers. It must do 0.3 Watts. It had a power supply to support a 100 Watt amp. It was hard-wired internally with wire with having silver content. Unlike any Pass amp, there is no feedback in the amp. In December 2108, a friend sent me a PASS ACA 1.6 version, professionally built, to sell for him on eBay. I allowed the Pass amp to warm up for 24 hours. When I put the ACA 1.6 in my system , ( compared to my much lower powered tube amp ), the ACA sounded thin, anemic, un-dynamic, two-dimensional, removed from the music, and uninspiring. My DIY tube amp design - easily and simply trashed the ACA. That .............was my recent listening experience. If a triode tube amp is done well ( sadly for the public, 99.9% are NOT !! ) you can not match it, with any low-powered transistor amp, IMHO. YMMV, fine with me !! Dowto1000 |
@googoogjob32 and @exron, I have the BHK Pre, it is fantastic, which is why the BHK Signature 300 is on my short list. But I love the fact that the x260.8 delivers the first ~30 watts of power in full class A. This doesn't mean it will out perform a BHK mono in my system. I'm thinking there could be a v. nice definitely synergy with the BHK monos and pre. |
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I heard Cary SET's at a show and the sound was anemic. Little speakers naturally. I heard a demo at an audio meeting of a small-scale tube amp company (SET's) on a Livingston Taylor LP. They sounded very good, maybe a tad loose in the bass. It was very nice but I still like Rowland, Levinson, etc. VTL makes great amps but they are not SET's. Some accuse them of sounding like SS! I can only vouch for Pass Aleph amps since I have heard what they can do in person. You can hear in a few minutes the "warmth" to the presentation. It's unmistakable, but you may not personally like them, which is fine. But you can fry an egg (well almost) on the surface. |
