Are Pass Labs amps probably the best ever you can buy ?

What about First Sound pre for Pass Lab 

I recently had Pass restore/update a pair of Aleph 2 mono block amps. My experience with Pass Labs and Kent English has re-set the bar for fantastic customer service. These amps are spectacular. 

I had to check the date to be sure this wasn't an old, resurrected thread.


There are a number of amps at the Pass price point I like better, and even a number of less expensive amps I like better. I agree that Pass sounds different, and for the right person with the right speakers they make buyers very happy. From what I've read, of those who have been generous enough to share with me their buying history and experience, the speakers can make a big difference as to whether Pass is "the best" or not.  Tannoy is one of the brands I hear Pass lovers like to use, so this may be a good guide.


My advice to anyone looking at Pass is to use your own ears and compare them with Ayre and Luxman. These three amp brands sound very different, so they'll give a buyer a really nice survey of the land.

Have to agree with Eric, use YOUR own ears and decide. Pass is not what I find to my liking, although good it can be a bit sterile to me. But to YOU it just might tick off all the boxes.

I owned a Pass Labs X350.5 amp and preamp for years. One day I tried tube mono blocks and ended up selling the Pass Equipment.

ozzy

I would say that Pass Lab's products are certainly up there with the best of the best. There will be an infinity of opinions regarding what is "the best". There are currently just so many top shelf products out there. I just auditioned seven of the best integrated amps in their price range and I would be extremely happy to own any of those seven amps. They ALL sounded different but amazing in their own way. The Pass Labs int 60 was one of those amps and, IMHO, it sounded absolutely incredible. So did the other amps. But the int 60 was one of my top two picks after a full day of auditions.

How anyone can say a certain Pass amp or any amp in general sounds thin without discussing speakers, preamps, sources or cables has no credibility. 

How anyone can say a certain Pass amp or any amp in general sounds thin without discussing speakers, preamps, sources or cables has no credibility. 

OP: your original question is silly at best i’m sorry to say. simply too many great choices to nominate one as best. have you heard Dartzeel, JRDG, Luxman, Vitus, Agostino, ML, Krell and on and on. That’s the fun of it; so many great options. When you throw “used” in the mix the door opens very wide. 

Steve McCormack’s new amps and preamp in my opinion are better.
www.smcaudio.com. 
Sanders sound Magtech.

LUXMAN IS ALSO GREAT

there are a lot of great amps.

like ice cream, too many flavors!

Not even close in my experience. 

Better value and better sounding than the Nakamichi PA7 [Pass designed] amp is the Usher R1.5 which is also a Nelson Pass design[a Threshold Stasis 200 copy].
The SIT 3 might be the best sounding of all the Nelson Pass designs but you would want to compare it with the Bakoon amplifiers which have a somewhat similar approach.The Bakoons are the best sounding  SS amps I have heard .Not quite Kondo Ongaku quality but getting there.

Is the Giant Killer Belles Virtuoso amp on the market yet ?..

I would say they are in the "team photo".  So yes, among the best.  Great resale, sound, and support.

Love my 250.8 and XP22.

i’m curious on pass resale. the last time i purchased a pass amp securing a pretty deep discount was not difficult( 25-30 %off). has that changed? if big discounting is occurring resale usually takes a hit. the unit was a 250.8 as i recall. no motive here. just curious. it ‘seems’ that pass is widely used by agoners as well as ps audio. is discounting a factor in these two brands having so many users? i’m guessing the sound quality is pretty good too.

The "Nelson Pass", designed amplifiers I have tried. "And I believe that I have tried most if not all of them" at this point, Are not "Just a cut" above other SS amplifiers out there. They are WAY above the others. Even the old "Denon" mono-blocks are nice!
 But the A-400 is probably my favorite. For many reasons including but not simply because, of the sound. And It still runs great! It is now kept in an all "Threshold", tri-amplified system.
 People keep bringing up, "Giant Killer" types out there. I have yet to meet one. And I have searched, and will continue to do so.
But anyone looking to just, "Best", Nelson Pass designed amps?
 I do not think it can be done. Different perhaps, but better? Or even near as nice? THAT, is a tall order to fill!

I took an entire year to research my new audio system. I put many, many, hours into reading reviews and forums culminating in an actual all day audition of some of the top amps in the world. I visited with many very knowledgeable and experienced audiophiles. I even flew from my home in Iowa to Sarasota, Florida to audition amps. I auditioned amps by Pass, Gryphon, Naim Hegel, VAC Audio, Simaudio, and Luxman among others. I finally picked the Pass Labs INT 250 and couldn't be happier with my choice. I'm pairing it with some superb sounding Harbeth Super HL 5+ 40th Anniversary model speakers. I'm also running the INT 250 with an MSB Discrete DAC with dual power supplies and Roon Nucleus.

I can't imagine a better sounding similarly priced system. I'm sure there are systems that sound as good, but just different. I very, very, highly recommend the Pass INT 250. Mine is just now really getting broken in and is sounding sublime. I also auditioned the INT 60 and was similarly impressed with it.

BTW, the heat issue with Pass amps is, IMHO, totally irrelevant. I can lay my hand on my INT 250 all day long and never get uncomfortable. It's really a non-issue. It gets "warm" but definitely NOT hot. If you want to feel hot, lay your hand on a tube amp. That's HOT. An INT 250 might raise the ambient temperature of a small room a degree or two in warm climates. But so will some other amps. Especially tube amps. My listening room is about 12' x 27' and I don't even notice the room heating up any when my amp is on. But, after having said all the above, use your own ears and audition any amp you're interested in. It'll be time very well spent. Lots of great choices in amps and other components out there. 

From one point of view, they may be the best, but I would not use them because they would break my home power budget.

The specifications for our speakers recommend an amplifier in the range of 125-250 watts, although more or less can suffice. (I currently have more!) So, I started looking for suitable Pass amplifiers and looked closely at the XA100.8, which is “only” 100W. It is a mono amp, so I would need two:

https://www.passlabs.com/amplifier/xa100.8

When idling, two of these together would draw a total of 900 watts from the wall.

Our home solar and battery system do not provide all of our power needs, but through most of the year, the system allows us to totally avoid buying on-peak power, which costs about 8x as much as off peak power. The large household power users (e.g. pool pump) are all scheduled for late night so that they can use off-peak power from the grid. Air conditioning runs when it needs to throughout the day, which can’t be helped. When AC and the pool pump are not running, the house consumes about 500-600 watts (standby appliances, stereo system, refrigerator, ceiling fans, computers and network.) If I were to add two XA100.8’s to the mix, turned on, this typical power consumption would more than double. The Pass amps would be the third largest power-user, after the AC system and the pool pump. This would destroy the strategy for avoiding on-peak power purchasing by a large amount. Now, I could leave the amplifiers powered down and power them up only when I needed them, but:

1. This would put me in a position of having to think about how badly I really wanted to listen to the stereo, thus diminishing the pleasure, and
2. I would have to consider restricting my listening to off-peak hours (9pm-9am), and
3. I would have to plan ahead to listen to the stereo, since the amplifier manual (which can be found on the link above) recommends a 1-hour warmup time

 I’m afraid that, for me, this puts the Pass products in the same categories as LP’s and tube amps as being more trouble than they are worth, especially when equal performance alternatives are available. So, I wish many more happy years for our existing amplifier so I can delay indefinitely what will be a very difficult choice. Perhaps I am just not that dedicated of an audiophile.

 

@audiofound

WIth all the auditioning that you did, can you be specific about what qualities of the Pass were the deciding factor?  Imaging? Tonal balance? Bass control?  Voices? What about price as well?

Where there any speakers you found better/worse with the Pass?

@mcdonakl

Have you tried any class AB amps from Pass ?
Your XA100 is class A and they are notorious for being power hogs.
If you live in Alaska, you do not need a separate heater with class A amps :-)

Really when you get into high end amps Pass, Gryphon, Luxman, Simaudio, T+A, Hegel, and other similarly priced components it's really about what your ears like. It's preference, not necessarily fact. I mean some like chocolate ice cream, some like vanilla, some like the color blue, some like the color red.

One man's thin sounding component is another man's open, air-ey sounding component, one man's smooth top end is another's unexciting, dull top end, one man's strong bass is another's boomy bass, one man's warm mids is another's too dark toned, one man's smooth top end is another's rolled off top end. If we didn't hear things differently we'd all be buying the same exact components. 

We (myself included) seem to have great difficulty putting sound into words with any kind of accuracy. And then we'll have comments like Brand A will "blow the doors off Brand B", or "Brand A blows Brand B out of the water"...whatever the heck that means. I personally find these kinds of descriptions useless. It tells me nothing about the components. 

We need to get used to the idea that we very often don't hear things the same. From a strictly physiological standpoint I don't know why we should think otherwise. Our hearing apparatus and biology/physiology is completely different from one day to the next. 

Here's a news flash...it's OK to have a preference and for other people to have theirs. It's OK to be absolutely convinced your set up sounds "better" than anyone else's or for me to feel my system is the best sounding out there.

And there are an infinity of variables that are obvious and some not so obvious to consider when auditioning, comparing, and evaluating components...the room and how a specific brand and model interacts with it is one major factor regarding how you hear things. I mentioned both physiology and biology above as factors governing how we hear and process sound. Have you ever listened to a system one day, come back in a day or two and something about your system sounds different? This sometimes happens to me with my guitars and amp.

Aural memory can also be a factor...you listen to your system and it goes into your memory and a week later you listen again and it sounds different. I traveled to Suncoast Audio about a year ago to audition several top notch amps for my new system. But my aural memory of that experience is starting to fade to the point where I can't remember the fine details of how each amp sounded. I just remember which ones my ears liked most. 

There are just so many factors to weigh when it comes to making value judgments about audio components. But we sometimes have a tendency to form snap, knee jerk, opinions without being honest and objective with ourselves. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

I love my Classe' CA M600 monoblocks. They were good enough for Abby Roads Studio. They have a few years on them but hard to beat. Its a too bad what happened with Classe'. Pass does a great job. It boils down to what sounds right in your system with your acoustics. As Salon 1 Audio mentions, certain amps sound different with different speakers. That is a vital part of the equation.

I think AudioFound summed this all up nicely. Sound interpretation varies from one set of ears to another. When you get to a certain level of quality it becomes a personal form of what you like and enjoy.

cakyol:
I am not seriously looking for a new amplifier. I have had our ML-333 since it was new in 1995 and have no plans to replace it.  However, just for fun as a background task, I try to keep up on recent developments so that I have a plan in case the ML-333 fails beyond repair and needs to be replaced.

One of the best solid state amps could be the new Rotel Michi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHWfEVn4--M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pNh-CyLR5U

Get a Rotel Michi preamp and Michi amps with some B&W Nautilus Flagship speakers and be done for life !

Yes..the Nautilus is that good even today ! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6zif_UGftc

None better than Pass at it’s price point. SQ, craftsmanship, attention to detail, build quality, all top shelf components. The best customer service in the business. My ears have not heard anything that sounds "better" for the money. I’m sure there are certainly amps that sound as good, but "different". When you get into this price range it’s just a matter of preference and not so much what is "better". It's what your ears prefer. Speaking of ears, my ears also really like the Diablo D300.

"Rotel", IMHO is not really in the same (class) as the "Pass Labs", or "First Watt", amplifiers, which is Mr. Nelson Pass other company. I still have eight or nine of them "The Rotel's", as they do have their uses. But there is simply a huge difference in not just the design, but also the build quality and I am not even mentioning the sound differences!
"Rotel" is no slouch for sure! But NOT anywhere near a Pass amp for sure!
 I will say one thing though, A few years ago I needed/wanted a third "Pass", "X-350", to match my other two in a tri-amped system I was building that had a calculated 6Ohm load from the (64), transducers per side. "(42 tweets), (14, 8" mid's), and (8-12" Mid-woofers). The eighteen ten inch sub's were separate with their own amplification.
 But I could not find a decent example of another X-350 anywhere!. "At that time there was a waiting list for even a "Used", X-350". And I heard this from a few different places I did business with at that time. So, to hold me over I acquired a used "McIntosh MC-402". I thought the power matching between the two amps would be fairly close. With the Pass amp at 350wpc. and already quite a "Legend", for the power it put out. And the Mac at 400wpc., with similar specs but, I had never heard a word about this amp.
 Man-o-man was I wrong!
 That "Mac-402", very literally "Scared", me. Which was a new experience in my book. out of me as soon as I powered up the rig. I didn't melt anything...."I could just imagine in my minds eye the (42)-Mag-planar tweets I had it driving just melting their ribbons"! And I could just tell that the amp was barely even breathing. And when the same load was applied to an X-350? They had it running pretty hard. That "Mac", amp barely ever became warm while I owned it.
 Part of that difference was of course in the design parameters with the Pass amp going farther in "Pure Class A", while the Mac's auto-formers made the load just easy as it could be. At least that's what I thought after calling and mentioning it to "Ken", at "Pass Labs".
 And blindfolded I could not have told the difference between the sound of those two amps either. And believe me....I am NOT a "McIntosh" fellow at all really. Too "Clinical", is how almost all of the Mac's sound to me. But everyone is different!

Hi,
Listen the sony ta-5650 (V-fet), similar pass first watt SIT, but more power and incredible sound, better than luxman L507x and McIntosh mc-225 !!!

Hi,
Excuse me, i'm new, i did'nt introduce myself...
I'm french, so excuse me for my english langage...

My system:
Preamp lampizator subminiature 
Sony ta-5650 amp 
Focal sopra 1 speakers 
Marantz cd7 
Dac DIY Nos tda1541A S1 (for tv)
Atelier acoustik OCC/silver teflon HP
O2A and Furutech power cables 
Espace musical muse 1 RCA cables 

I compared my system with a lot of amps, including the luxman L507x, i always preferred the sony, at the same time for the natural, smooth and the vivid sound!
Now, with the lampizator preamp, the sound is even more natural and organic!

I’m a big Pass fan...  but to simply say they sound the best period, is just silly..  Paired with what ?  Since I haven’t heard every amp out there, I can’t say what’s best..
but I’m sure there are other amps out there worthy or equal to pass..
Currently I’m using Pass gear and loving it..  but to say it’s the best out there wouldn’t be fair..  but I have to say.. Pass gear is engineered and built very well ! good value for the money and great sounding in my system !!
I find the Pass house sound to be a bit warm of neutral, which works well for me..  but others may find it to sound “colored”.
So it all depends on your system and tastes..
Glad we have so many choices !!

I don't compared the fisrt watt SIT with my sony V-fet...
But the sound is similar, read the forums...
The power transistors SIT are the same than V-fet sony, nelson pass use sony V-fet transistors in the SIT amps.

I have auditioned dozens of amps and have owned many but in my chain the Pass Labs Xa100.8 has sounded the best to date. There are many great options out there Boulder, Benchmark, Arcam, Anthem and on and on. The 100.8 though I believe is something special, not perfect but for my values in sound reproduction these strike the best balance I have been able to find at any price point. I will list some pros and cons I hope will give a fair overview of them.

Before I start my digital chain is dcs Vivaldi Apex dac with upsampler and clock, holo audio serene preamp (IMO MUCH better than Pass Labs relatively poor preamp options), cardas beyond cabling running in to Kef Meta Blade 1’s in a treated room with meticulous speaker placement. I have owned a variety of speakers with the Pass Labs and have noticed great synergy with all of them, Perlisten S7ts, Revel and Magico.

The one thing I can say with complete confidence is the mid-range with the 100.8 is simply unrivaled by any amp I have ever heard. Nothing even close comes to mind. But would I say these amps are best in every category? No, do not believe there is such a thing but if mid-range is a key aspect for you then you owe it to yourself to audition these. More importantly if you do audition make sure it is in a quality chain and room.

Cons:

They run HOT. I am in Socal and in the summers they make the room miserable. I have AC but not an ultra-quiet one meaning running while trying to enjoy music is suboptimal. Also your power bill will go up! They are hungry! They are heavy. They take about an 1/2 to full hour to hit their stride taken out of standby. With my Perlisten the bass was beautifully controlled, deep, nuanced and detailed. With the blades the bass is a tad loose IMHO. Not sure if 160.8 might help with that. I have heard amps with deeper soundstage but the 100.8 still allows me to very easily visually identify precise placement of depth of each instrument.

Pros

Midrange is phenomenal, voices are extraordinary. I have never heard any amp come anywhere near the body and uncanny realism. I had a neighbor ask about all the live music events I have at home asking if I was in the music business. I can’t tell you how good that made me feel. It is those little moments that help make audiophile insanity seem worth it. With a good chain and proper speaker placement vocalists will be in your room in a way no other amp has come close to reproducing. Other extraordinary reproduction strengths are drums (with exception of bass drum which as mentioned above with blades could be tighter). They are reproduced with uncanny realism, from high-hats to rim taps to the crack if the snare. I listen to ALOT of live music and can say you are getting the drum set represented in your room exactly as if in a live show. Horns, especially the trumpet generally fall short of the mark for me with other amps, the 100.8 with blades give me the depth and detail so many others fall short of. I think it has a lot to do with the treble, what I classify as hi-fi sound vs live event sound. Hi-fi the treble is very airy, detailed and bright where in live events I have never heard the sound delivered that way, it exaggerates the top frequencies throwing off tonal balance, yes you can in the hi-fi lens hear the cymbals as if through a microscope but when it comes to brass instruments that exaggeration overpowers the warm frequencies giving you the bleating trumpet vs the resonate one. The soundstage in my room easily extends 5 or 6 feet beyond the speakers which IMO is more than I really need. Soundstage height has varied with speakers and hard to attribute to an amp but can say width jumps dramatically, compare an ahb2 to the 100.8 and expect nearly double the width.

Conclusion

For pure jazz I have mixed feelings as it will really come down to speaker pairing for the bass end. Cello, piano, trumpet, sax, vocals, all but the very bottom of drums and bass will floor you. However bass drum and bass low end I feel have room for improvement, may just be I need more power with the metas, I can say the Perlisten pairing however was great in this regard but the metas mid and upper range is so much better for now can live without perfect low end. If you are a bass head and want ultra-tight hyper detailed bottom I am not sure the 100.8 would be your darling with inefficient speakers. I would also say I have heard the 100.8 in what I consider subpar chains that really benefit from a top end boost because of lack of detail or dynamics, that airy top end boost helps juice up the deficiencies, put a 100.8 in that chain is a recipe for a fairly boring experience as without a chain with loads of detail the uncanny realism the 100.8 has on tap will never be revealed. I read one post in this thread saying the 100.8 was bright, if its bright in your system you need to either get some decent components in your chain or learn about speaker placement and your room’s effect on sound reproduction, as you have some serious issues as to make the 100.8 bright you are either hearing really bad in room reflections or your chain is ear blindingly bright. If any crticism could be drawn it would be to call the monoblocks warm, but to my ears compared woth live music it is not warm bit spot on. Realism over exaggerated hi-fi.

Just another fools opinion, a dime a dozen. Would however strongly encourage you to give this amp a listen, especially with a dealer who knows their craft and has a demo room that can really show them off. They are truly an amazing feat of engineering. If you follow and trust your ears, you can’t go wrong.

John and Gary Bedini made great amps. I have a 25/25 and a 150/150. From a time when amps didn’t cost as much as a new automobile. RIP John and Gary!

Superb customer service. I think that Pass amps have a house sound and I have owned the XA 30.8 and a First Watt. I didnt like the F.W. at all and the 30.8, while a very good amp, really didnt do it for me in terms of nuance. I have nothing but respect for Pass, but it isnt to my taste. 

I like my McIntosh MC462 matched up with my Focal Sopra2’s, Backert Labs Rhythm 1.3, LUMIN U1 with XP1 power supply, and LaScala DAC. Must add that I have a dedicated space with correct sound absorption and diffraction. I agree with choosing your speakers first.