I have two PS Audio AC3 and two Pangea AC 14 cables I don't use. My thinking is that Ayre wouldn't supply cables that are inadequate for their components. Is that thinking flawed?
Since there is no evidence, none at all, (not a sausage, not even the smell of pork - plenty of snake oil aroma if you like) that expensive power cables do anything that the manufacturer supplier ones can’t, it’s time to bring out the Hitchens Razor.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.
Take a look at what Gene at the excellent Audioholics site has to say on the matter.
Since there is no evidence, none at all, (not a sausage, not even the smell of pork - plenty of snake oil aroma if you like) that expensive power cables do anything that the manufacturer supplier ones can’t, it’s time to ...
There is abundant evidence that "expensive power cables" can make a difference - a virtual mountain of it! There are countless testimonials in print, online and in real life from users that have first-hand experience. Indeed, premium power cables are a distinct niche within the audio and audio cable industries.
Of course, much of the abundant evidence isn’t the kind of evidence you seem to prefer, which is fine. But to pretend that "there is no evidence" is really disingenuous.
cleeds2,957 posts05-15-2020 9:48am"....There is abundant evidence that "expensive power cables" can make a difference - a virtual mountain of it! There are countless testimonials in print, online and in real life from users that have first-hand experience. Indeed, premium power cables are a distinct niche within the audio and audio cable industries...."
Sorry, but anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.
Sorry, but anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything.
It's true that even abundant empirical evidence is not by itself proof. But this is a hobbyist's group, so this wouldn't be the place to expect participants to be conducting the kind of scientific testing you probably prefer. Regardless, it's simply false to claim that "there is no evidence." There's tons of it. If it doesn't suit you, you're free to go collect your own. If you do, please share the results with us.
A, "THEORY" has never proven anything, either. That's ALL the, "evidence" naysayers have ever offered, in their, "scientific" pontifications. No one will ever know, whether a component change (whatever the component) makes a change, in their system/to their ears, without actually trying it, which (whether your ilk recognizes it or not), constitutes an experiment.
Apparently some little teddy bears 🧸🧸 haven’t heard that observation 👀 is one of the keystones of the scientific method. It’s called empirical evidence. Hel-loo!
rodman999994,348 posts05-15-2020 1:55pmA, "THEORY" has never proven anything, either. That's ALL the, "evidence" naysayers have ever offered, in their, "scientific" pontifications. No one will ever know, whether a component change (whatever the component) makes a change, in their system/to their ears, without actually trying it, which (whether your ilk recognizes it or not), constitutes an experiment.
Well said! Totally agree.
And for the naysayers, I seriously doubt they actually own any audio equipment. They just like to pollute the audio forums for some strange reason. Maybe because THAT is their hobby?
Often a good indicator is their Audiogon feedback history: more often than not, zero transactions. They buy nothing. See those two guys above today. Zero transactions here. And don't tell me they only buy brand new from dealer (LOL!!!)
cleeds2,958 posts05-15-2020 10:44am"It's true that even abundant empirical evidence is not by itself proof. But this is a hobbyist's group, so this wouldn't be the place to expect participants to be conducting the kind of scientific testing you probably prefer. Regardless, it's simply false to claim that "there is no evidence." There's tons of it. If it doesn't suit you, you're free to go collect your own. If you do, please share the results with us."
I don't expect hobbyists to be conducting scientific tests but think it's NOT unreasonable for PC manufacturers to publish test results supporting their claims. Is that too much to ask?
I don't expect hobbyists to be conducting scientific tests but think
it's NOT unreasonable for PC manufacturers to publish test results
supporting their claims. Is that too much to ask?
There are companies such as Wireworld that have conducted blind tests - WW even developed its own comparator so you can listen blind to your heart's content, and then decide for yourself. Is that too much to ask?
Which Wireworld, the one that claims lots of double-blind testing, even though they makes lots of excuses for it, but to my knowledge has never published actual testing and/or had fully independent listeners participate in the test and allowed the results to be published? That Wireworld? Or would it be the Wireworld that erroneously uses the fact that humans can perceive ear-to-ear timing differences as justification that fast speed in cables is important, even though the two are completely unrelated? Perhaps it would be the wireworld that claims that the small phase-shift at high frequencies with "some" cables causes things to sound "bright" due to prolonging the sound, even though phase-shift in speakers is in general way worse than any cable. Or, is it the Wireworld that claims triboelectric effects are an issue, though it is easily shown through calculation, measurement or experiment, that with the typical source/load impedance in audio, that triboelectric effects are meaningless? .... Which particular one?
Synergistic Research also claims to do exhaustive double blind testing, but again, never publishes anything, nor allows independent verification.
You sure ask a lot of questions. What are you, a narc? Independent verification requires someone uh, independent. That’s why they call it independent verification and validation. Are you volunteering again?
"Synergistic Research also claims to do exhaustive double blind testing, but again, never publishes anything, nor allows independent verification." Excuse me? Synergistic offers a 30 day satisfaction guarantee, on virtually everything it sells. That should be sufficient time, for even the most obtuse, to discern whether a component change results in an audible difference, in their own system. Ever been to an electronics trade show? Mr Denney goes to lots of them, around the globe, at which he demos his wares, openly, proudly and with great success. ie: https://www.synergisticresearch.com/best-of-show-awards-2015-all-major-shows/
Mr. Denny has never done a double blind test publicly. Never. He refuses .. or makes excuses. Take your pick. But has never done double blind with any verification or validation.
"Please list the aftermarket power cords you have compared to stock power cords?"
I have compared a few stock power cords that came with different pieces of equipment. Some thinner, some thicker. I report that I could not discern any difference in sound.
If power cords matter in terms of sound, are all the stock ones clones that sound equally good (or bad, if you are a proponent of more expensive products)?
Instead of advertising expensive power cords, why not compare stock ones and report how they sound? It may be helpful to those on the budget.
SR/ Danny has never done a public double blind test. Not at a trade show and not at his factory. I only call them out because they makes claims of doing it (like WW), but always "shy" away from anything public ... I.e. something that would prove the claim. No other vendors do double blind public tests either ... But they don’t claim to do them private or public and many offer guarantees as well.
boxer124,625 posts05-15-2020 8:06pm"turnbowm, heaudio, Please list the aftermarket power cords you have compared to stock power cords?"
Have tried Audioquest and Pangea power cords of various flavors on my Bryston B60R Integrated and it doesn't seem to care what I feed it with. Bryston amps have robust power supplies which, reportedly, makes them less sensitive to power delivery issues.
This should be obvious but I am claiming something does not exist. The only way to prove me wrong is to prove that the opposite is true, i.e. provide proof that a public double blind test has occurred. It has not but feel free to prove me wrong.
rodman999994,357 posts05-16-2020 8:12am@heaudio- So; you, "call them out" with ZERO verification/validation, of your statements (iow, "TRUST ME")?
What a silly goose. You can’t prove a negative. It’s like UFOs. You can’t PROVE they don’t exist. You may have a gut feeling, even a very strong gut feeling. But that’s not scientific, is it? That is what they call pseudo skepticism.
I didn’t make your totally UNSUBSTANTIATED statements! It’s your ilk, that incessantly demands, "EVIDENCE." You’ve made a number of claims. Now- back them up, with something!
I thought I really liked my cables and cords...do I have to measure them on that $11,000 machine like Gene's to make sure I like them? that's way more than my cables cost...
I made the claim that SR and others claim to do double blind tests but none of them to my knowledge had done a properly administered double blind test in public, i.e. one where the process and results could be verified and validated by others. SR I am quite sure never has. Ted (due to his public persona) has been challenged to do it many times. He has never followed through.
I
made the claim that SR and others claim to do double blind tests but
none of them to my knowledge had done a properly administered double
blind test in public ...
So what? Who cares? I've been a participant in a few double-blind listening tests. They were interesting. The results were never intended for publication. Who cares? What really matters is the result of your own evaluations.
@jl35- Your biggest mistake, was to have actually tried some better cables and cords. Now: you need to sell those and forget everything you think you heard, because: your deceitful/malfunctioning ears and brain, obviously misled you. TRUST ME (snort of derision)!
+1 cleeds ... the only testing that matters is the testing you do at home in your own system... and we buy with return privileges so there's no bias to "pretend"...
Nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but is everyone here willing to patronize the business of a person who insults another one on the basis of Asperger’s syndrome with the language used in those facebook (I think it was facebook) posts?
you're quite correct rodman, it was foolish to want to spend momey on cables and cords that actually made everything sound worse...where were you 30 years ago when I tried my first awesome Museatex interconnects ???
@jl35 - " ....the only testing that matters is the testing you do at home in your own system... and we buy with return privileges so there’s no bias to "pretend"... There you go again: being logical and making sense! How dare you (and/or, cleeds)?
Who cares? The person who posted about Wireworld doing double blind testing, to which I posted that to my knowledge, no public (validated) tests have ever been published, nor by SR, the other company that claims double blind testing. That is all, that is it. I can't control how others respond to that information.
I
made the claim that SR and others claim to do double blind tests but
none of them to my knowledge had done a properly administered double
blind test in public ...
It was truly an ugly exchange on Facebook, but that is his MO. In theory it should be easy to address the criticism and prove publicly the marketing claims, but I guess it is easier to attack people. One of his dealers employees out of Chicago was just as bad in this interchange. That person now runs his marketing.
glupson4,855 posts05-16-2020 11:46amNothing to do with the topic of this thread, but is everyone here willing to patronize the business of a person who insults another one on the basis of Asperger’s syndrome with the language used in those facebook (I think it was facebook) posts?
glupson4,855 posts05-16-2020 8:46am"Nothing to do with the topic of this thread, but is everyone here willing to patronize the business of a person who insults another one on the basis of Asperger’s syndrome with the language used in those facebook (I think it was facebook) posts?"
Good question and I'm hoping that people will give this some thought when making their next purchase.
kozka “That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” – Christopher Hitchens.
amen
>>>>>I know that means something. Was Christopher Hitchens the old dude in Back to the Future? No, wait, don’t tell me. He was the black hole dude in the wheelchair!
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