Last comment of Ebm always attracts, so get Horny and never look back |
People love to get Horny. |
https://www.facebook.com/groups/614272918584739/ |
definitively. Have a look at my horn speaker gallery.
http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=31 |
Mapman look into Altecs a bit better than Klipsch and more affordable. |
Volleyguy,
Call me crazy or a romantic or whatever, but I still retain my visions of proudly owning Klipschorns someday!
Thanks. |
Mapman I have a friend who had a set of Khorns in a trailer and it is STILL the best system I have ever heard. His amp was 20k or so but still sounded great. I have had my Lascala's over the years in large and small rooms and say that is one good thing about Klipsch (horn style) is they sound so good at LOW volumes. I think people see those big speakers and think they need to be loud but I do not find that to be the case. |
I do have visions of adding an additional optimally designed (for sound) room to my house someday.
In the meantime, I've learned to become pretty adept at experimentation and adapting my equipment to the rooms I have to work with.
I'm very lucky these days in that I can go into any of 5 rooms and also out on my deck on a beautiful day, and be very satisfied with each of the various listening experiences. |
I built 2 rooms for audio in my new home. One large other 13 1/2ft x 15 3/4 11ft H peak this has my corner horn rig with 8 -15in 4 per front horn I use as a office listening room. Other rooms 20 x 30 designed for horns 8 ft-12ft H some of my bass horns I designed to couple to room so room becomes a bass horn. Maybe talk your wife into a custom designed home only way to get a room thats right:) |
JohnK,
Yes, I know my 12X12 room is less than ideal, in particular for larger speaker designs.
It is very much a nearfield listening environment, I would say.
That's why I have a pair of small (Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII) monitors in there currently. They have some needed room to breathe as set up and perform very well in there though certainly more room would be better.
Khorns would work physically. Sonically? Maybe. Almost certainly not the BEST environment to bring out the best.
I've also had a pair of B&W P6s, Magnepan MG 1.3c's, and Triangle Titus in there in the past. The Titus' did well but the B&Ws and Maggies did much better in other, larger rooms. I consider the (much more expensive) Dynaudio monitors an upgrade over the Triangle monitors mostly in terms of satisfying bottom end, though the sound of each otherwise is still quite distinctive.
Meanwhile I'll see if I can convince my wife to move so I can have a better room for a pair of Khorns but will not hold my breath...... |
Mapman K horns in a 12x12 room your crazy man:) a square 1 of the worst shapes for a audioroom. Placing such a large corner horn in such a small square room is just asking for disapointment. Have you treated your listening room? Might be the best way to improve sound quality. Or move to better digs... |
Yes, Khorns or cornerhorns in general would work and be the other (ultimate?) way to go for me given my constraints if a local pair came up, but obviously they are a much larger investment.
If I decided to go with Klipschorns, they would probably go in a small 12X12 room where my Dynaudios are currently. Also, I'm not in a rush to part with the Dynaudios, but that's a different though related issue. |
Don't laugh at this Mapman but have you thought about Khorns? If you have corners they do not take up much floor space. I am looking at Khorns (get this) to SAVE space. To me they are majestic looking as well! Cost might be a problem with the Khorns but the foot print is quite small. I have had my Lascala's in a room about the size of yours. That is where Lascala's (also Belle's and Khorns) shine! Small room low volume level dynamics, awesome. I can't imagine what could compete with the big Klipsch in a small room except maybe some new horn designs. I think common thought is big speakers need big room. That is not true of the big Klipsch but maybe true of the wife! |
YEs, I've looked quite a bit at the Klipsch Heritage line.
If I were to take the plunge, it would probably initially be with something like a Heresy due to size and placement concerns, though the Fortes have also caught my interest based on user reviews I've seen. |
Mapman I see some of your other posts on Klipsh horns. I for one do not feel the other Klipsch are in the same league heritage. If you do go heritage go old. Mine are 1980 Lascala's and Grey can mids. Mine do not have the Alnico tweeter. They were being phased out by then. The cost of Alnico is $30 a pound and ceramic magnets are 50 cents to $5 per pound. So I bet you can imagine why they stopped using "the singing magnets". I never knew why Lascala's sounded better than friends with '80's and '90's horns. |
Height and WAF.
The only room I could even think about putting those in is my office (not a fully dedicated listening room) which is only 12X12 and they would stick out like a sore thumb even in there currently. I'd also probably have to consider changing my amplification.
At this point, I'm curious about horns but not likely to make a big investment in them. I may test the waters somewhat soon with a smaller pair of Klipsch reference which would give me a flavor at modest cost.
Believe me if I could, the Cardersounds would get their due share of consideration! Maybe some day when I retire or something I may have the time and inclination to re-arrange my life just for a pair of speakers. Yes, I can be that crazy when it comes to this stuff! |
05-23-08: Mapman
[of Cadersounds] Unfortunately, the big speaker effect discussed in this thread impacts me...there is nowhere in my home I could place them and do them justice even if I were inclined to. Is height a problem or footprint? Jeff makes a Fostex 126 version which a very modestly sized footprint, albeit still at 6Â’ high. (I cannot think that height can be much of a problem unless you have sloping ceiling or such like) I auditioned the 126es at first and I very nearly went for them rather than the Madisons. Alternatively, if you really do need a small speaker, JohnK makes (or used to at least) a Fostex 126E based BLH that is really tiny (2Â’ high) but sounds really very good given their small stature. I have a pair and I had to use stands theyÂ’re so tiny. Note, I am not affiliated with Jeff or John in any way, but vouch for their products as a satisfied customer. Regards Paul |
Funny thing is you don't need to see them being popular, besides some bose, or jbl, polk speakers, Klipsch I am sure sells just as many pairs that would shock you in the #'s here and overseas...
Marketing is not as needed as you think.
They have always been popular, its like metallica, they sell out all their concerts but nobody that watches american idol has probably even heard of them today, or seen them so automatically its not commercial or the popular universal choice.. Our hobby is not commercial, but its way bigger than most probably think.
(Disclaimer: No I am not a big metallica fan, it was a solid example showing its bigger than you think is all, and they have quietly sold millions of albums underground and more commercially) |
pauly,
The Cardersound dual loaded horns have caught my eye here on a'gon of late.
They appear well made and reasonably affordable and the point source design with the high/low double horn loading is a design that, having never actually heard, makes a lot of sense to me.
I'd love to hear them just for the sake of hearing them. Unfortunately, the big speaker effect discussed in this thread impacts me...there is nowhere in my home I could place them and do them justice even if I were inclined to. |
05-22-08: Johnk ... So I dont think large sized loudspeakers will ever become popular. Whilst that may be true, it is really sad. Big(gish) horns do sound great. I have a pair of Cardersound Madisons that are little over 6 foot high and I am bolwed over by their sound each time I listen, even though I have owned them about 6 months now. I honestly cannot imagine ever going back to small monitor - high wattage amps again. regards Paul |
Shadorne I do agree with what you are saying to a point my Klipsch will NEVER get in the livingroom or I will be single! The Linn tower speakers are very attractive and look great just sitting there and yet I MISS the big horn sound. Yes they are butt ugly but if it was all about looks and convience how do you explain the resurgence of vinyl? The resurgence of tubes? Surely are hard drive with all your music on with the smallest most attractive speakers is what most women would want? Yet in some of these monster homes that are being built surely there is space for a room dedicated to just sound with little regard to "looks".
People did say vinyl was dead, tubes were dead, big speakers (horns for sure) were dead and yet that those seem to be the growth areas???? |
Size maters in loudspeakers. But most cant afford, can not house,wife- SAF wont allow,or audiophile just doesnt want to look at, move install giants....So I dont think large sized loudspeakers will ever become popular Quite agree. "don't want to look at" beats the greatest sound 99 times out of a 100...and yet this hobby is supposed to be about the sound....you only have to look at the beautiful cabinet work on the highest end tall narrow elegant speakers to realize that big horns don't really stand much of a chance. |
I do have some friends who own retail stores and I can see why they do not want horns or any large speaker. Floor space cost of selling is huge. They said the Plasma, LCD is very much about less space in the store and the storage room.
What you are saying about the wee dynamics is the reason after 25 years I still have the Klipsch. Regular speakers I always fell like I have to imagine what the performance is like. The big horns you don't have to imagine! Do you find on the modern horns you can listen at low volumes with excellent dynamics. That is the biggest draw to me on horns. The tower speakers need to reach a certain volume level to make it worth listening too. I can listen to the horns at a low volume level and be quite happy!
John the cost of modern horns though?? Much higher than the ample supply of old (Klipsch) horns? What is the better parts of new horns? |
Why is it that not many dealers that cater to the higher end market show horn designs in their showrooms along with all the other popular designs?
You would think that if horns were really popular that you would see and hear them around more (other than the latest Klipsch). |
Many large horns are DIY efforts. I do have 3 audio shops within a few hours drive that demo sell horn systems. But most audioshops are geared more to HT or the old dynamic with massive amps. Since I design loudspeakers of most all types not just horns I hear horn systems against standard designs most everyday. The weak spot of the horn is size and another reason why you dont see many audioshops selling such. Some of the horn systems I have built where 18ft wide without seperating loudspeakers thats with horns touching ea. other so not many shops can handle such. So if one doesnt DIY they can order custom built horn systems. Or buy from the many manufacters of horns. If you want a all horn loudspeaker with deep bass its going to huge....And after owning designing many of these I have a hard till going back to wee dynamics in slender towers that need minimum 200 watts just to have some dynamic range. But most audio types seem to be happy with this system type...Probly because the wife is;) |
One thing I must say is, other than mass market Klipsch speakers targeting the A/V market mainly in Best Buy and Tweeter, I has never seen any horn designs on display for audition at any high end shop I've been in in the last few years that I recall, and I've been in many along the DC/NY corridor.
Horns may be more trendy or popular on this site lately, but if this was a larger trend, I would expect that most high end audio shops would demo some good horn designs alongside all the other designs which you do see/hear.
AM I reading into this too much or is it possible that horns just do not sell well if stacked up side by side against other designs? |
Honk would be a distortion. Many horns are not of proper design for hi-end music use. Some folks have had poor listening experance with PA horns,poor designed,vintage designs with failing crossovers and thin dry cabinets. So horns have got a undeserved bad reputation. Much of this false info is just passed on as truth, never questioned I was told horns sucked for hi-end by many folks in audio when I was new to it. Think folks today are finding out that horns are much better than they where told. And now the horn is exceptable by hi-end but most still call it a wave guide. So now more folks are trying them out. Size limits sales of horns. I sell a few giants but most folks want under $2500 and vintage horns like yours fill this need nicely. I design little speakers, loudspeakers of most all types and I can own most any design type. I get to play with much costly kit but I keep coming back to giant front horn systems with small mostly SET amplifiers but I also use SS designs. Size maters in loudspeakers. But most cant afford, can not house,wife- SAF wont allow,or audiophile just doesnt want to look at, move install giants....So I dont think large sized loudspeakers will ever become popular. |
Well, they certainly do have a following.
Horns + tubes offer a different kind of listening experience from SS and conventional box design speakers, so I personally do find some appeal there. Not necessarily better or worse..but different, that's the key.
Also, I have an old fashioned streak in me and I find there is a special romantic appeal with horns...they are a throwback technology of sorts and beckon back to the "olden days" when things were simpler, kind of like a techni-color movie from the golden age of Hollywood on TCM. Nipper and the "His Master's Voice" RCA logo just makes me feel good, for some reason (see my system pics).
I haven't taken the horn plunge yet to date, but have spent time seriously studying the options. I may pick up a pair of inexpensive, small modern Klipsch reference series speakers at some point just to test the waters in my two channel A/V system. |
What do you think JohnK is the immediacy that we feel with horns is that what others feel is honky? I have owned the Klipsch for 25+ years and it is funny most of the time (for sure the 90's) I used to get a snicker from the store I deal at. Now all of the sudden they think horns have some benefits. This has only just changed in last 2 years. Maybe we have this "Man Cave" idea now and big speakers are Ok again. Another change I have noticed is a kind of debunking of the myth that "little" speakers can be just as good. |
Dynamic range is one of the benifits of horns other designs sound compressed to me even driven with massive amplifiers. And I too feel the popularity of small tube and SS amplifers have had an increase in interest in horns and hi-eff designs. When you look at the value a small tube amplifer gives in sound quality you get more performance per audio $ outlayed than lage power SS based systems. I do enjoy such systems but cost to get equal performance is much higher than SET horn. My opionion. And YMMV |
I think horns are becoming more popular because of the movement back to analog back to tubes. The eff. of horns makes them desireable. I have owned the big Klipsch for 25 years and every time I would go to hear the new non horn speakers that were supposed to be so much better I was always underwhelmed. Bass was better but that was it. Very boring and never felt real performance. Maybe I value that most, the illusion of being there and I have felt that I have BEEN there with the horns. All other speakers to me are just speakers. They can sound nice but not "alive".
I wish I could understand the anti-horn honkiness? |
Mlsst,I dont take anything online personaly though Iam blunt when I reply. Like I said I agree with some of what you posted just dont agree with the distinct trait of horns post;)I feel it does a harm to the general audio public to state such absolutes. For years I heard from audiophiles and other in the hobbie that horns are not audiophile loudspeakers only good for PA or sound reinforcement. So for many years did I passed by horn systems for other designs. When I finally heard a quality horn system it was a eye and ear opener for me and most of our local audiophiles have gone with hi-eff systems of some sort. As I have gained experance in this hobbie I see much disinformation being passed about as fact the all horns honk is one. So it needed to be addressed. And what fun is a thread if all agree with you? |
Yes Pehare I own KCS and mentioned earlyer when a member asked for sugestions.That since I manufacter I didnt want to be thought of as having bias so I didnt list any, later he asked again and I posted a few including my company. |
Just like trumpet players do? still would sound better than 90% of all the speakers out there.lol |
If you don't like the sound of that honky horn all you have to do is dampen the whole outside of the horn...end of problem!! |
Nothing like listening to a bit of HONKy Tonk Train Blues or HONKy Tonk Women on a pair of horn speakers that honk. |
there are perhaps individual companies(newer or start ups)experiencing more sales, but this hobby as a rule, is not capturing the imaginations of a larger consumer base. doesn't mean it won't be around...just means that overall 'flat' is the new 'up'......as for horns 'honking'..i prefer to refer to it as 'color and speed'. |
hello JohnK....in the interests of full disclosure...aren't you the man behind KCSloudspeakers which is on your list of your recommended horns above? btw, please don't take offense & i'm really a nice guy. i've drooled over your website a few times. |
Johnk, I see the brussels sprouts analogy flew right past you. (Actually, just for full disclosure, I happen to like them.)
I've heard horns all the way from the original 1930's Western Electric theater horns to the classic EVs, Altec Voice of the Theaters and Tannoys. One of my best friends owned the large Klipshs for many years. For the newer ones, I've heard the Avantegardes, several Fostex and Lowther incarnations, as well as the Acapellas.
As noted before, I often thought they sounded good, but every single time I knew I was listening to a horn. For me that was a distraction in spite of some other advantages, such as dynamic range, that I've already admitted.
Even Avantgarde said in a Stereophile article (Sept 2000) "that, regardless of available power, horns' high efficiency confers benefits in dynamics and low distortion, and that careful design can reduce horn colorations to a negligible level."
Notice even they did not say "eliminate" but used the word "reduce." What is "negligible" for one person may not be for another.
And I never said I or anyone else had "magic ears." I said we are probably sensitive to different things. What is confrontational about that? I used "perfect pitch" in a previous example. I don't have perfect pitch, but I sure don't denigrate those that do or suggest that they are "full of it." I even gave a reference to a book that talks extensively about how our brain hears and processes music. Like height, hair color and many other traits, this is going to vary by individual.
I'm not really interested in turning this into a 1950's style Ford vs Chevy debate. Nothing I said ever indicated that those who enjoy the strong attributes of a good horn system should stop doing so.
A main point of discussion forums on audio (or any other subject) is to engage in give and take on the subject at hand. I'm not quite sure you've taken this as a personal affront; it was certainly never meant that way. |
Mlsstl, I've heard horns that honk too. That does not mean they all do! I too have been at this a long time as I suspect many of the 'goners have, like you about 40 years also including professional recording and mastering. As you know, having access to good mics, master tapes and the like is a boon to developing any kind of reference so it is in that light that I ask you to view this next statement: some of the most neutral speakers I have heard are horns. Add to that list: ESLs, magnetic planars and regular cone systems.
IOW its how neutral the speaker is, not what kind of technology it is. I find the more neutral the speaker, the more it sounds like other neutral speakers, the more it sounds like the real thing.
Horns, in being neutral (which not all are), offer the benefits of being easy to drive and fantastic impact. What I **thought** was hard for them was getting the last bit of detail that a good ESL can- I had that thinking dashed at the last CES when I heard a horn that ceded nothing to ESLs in the transparency/detail department. **Without** question, horns have been an advancing technology in the 21st century. |
`Mlsstl you still insist this honk is a Distinct trait of horns, which its not. You want to list models of horns you heard sound like this? Sure you wont, asked before. So a few have heard on passing a few problems with horn set ups but now we have you guys proclaiming all horns honk. And this sickens me for its pure BS. Glad you have such magic ears for you imply folks with horns can not hear this honk because where not wired that way more BS. If it happens it can be measured since it doesnt unless somethings wrong with set up its again a non issue. So you dont like horn systems great but to spread BS [Like all horns have the distint trait of honking] Or that maybe horn owners- designers dont hear this is because our brains are not wired that way.Is just BS. You post in absolutes. You cant just admite you dont like horns so you imply all horns have problems, have you heard all horn models availible, in every system type, have you owned horns? Sure one cant have heard all or even a small amount of what availible on the market yet you insist all horns have distict coloration or honk. And if your a smart soul you will see your error if not happy listening.This thread was never about trying to force one to like horn systems just correcting your very wrong post insisting all horns have honking colorations. |
Atmasphere, I certainly acknowledge that components can interact with each other and exacerbate certain conditions. It is always important to choose components that compliment each other.
That said, I'm still of the opinion that certain designs just inherently have certain traits. One can take those things into consideration to ameliorate an issue, but whether it eliminates the problem to the degree necessary for every situation is unlikely.
In my case, I've been at this for almost 40 years (including time on the professional sound side) and have yet to hear a magic combination where the amp alone fixes this particular issue for me. There comes a point where it is like a fellow who loves brussels sprouts trying to convince his friend who doesn't like them to try just one more recipe. That'll be the one that does it!
Now I've certainly heard a lot of horn systems that are very good, but as noted earlier, this distinct horn trait is apparently something that I and some others are more aware of than other people. I suspect we're just wired that way. I also know the things that impress me about a system may well leave you cold.
I happen to just think it is a good thing that plenty of excellent, but different, designs are out there. Just a matter of looking around to find what floats your boat. |
Yes, I think horns are becoming more popular. I have never heard a horn system that I could live with. That includes, the previously praised new and old versions, and yes with the supposedly correct amplifiers. I always hear that honky, nasal, shouty, sound. I always walk away from those systems shaking my head and muttering, "I just don't get it". Then again, many of the fans of those systems have publicly criticized the gear I prefer. To each his own, YMMV, etc.. |
Seems like I'm not in town when the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest visits my neighborhood, but maybe I'll search out a horn dealer if I can't make the next RMAF. I AM very curious, because I love easy, big, dynamic range. If I can get that uncolored with good imaging, then I'd be tempted to jump, even if it stretched my budget.
Dave |
Mlsstl, the 'honkiness' you refer to is real, -but- it is usually an artifact of using the wrong kind of amp on a horn. Amps with low output impedance can get strident and honky as the highly reactive horn driver can put an amp with lots of feedback into conniptions!
IOW to experience what horns are about is usually done with zero feedback amplifiers. All of a sudden its a different world: horns can and are every bit as extended, relaxed and detailed as the best ribbons. |
Horns are costly for few reasons limited production, Hi-eff transducers use more costly materials large mags etc than other designs again this adds to cost. Molds for horns if plastic are very costly. Cabinets are large and complicated to constructed shipping such large systems is costly. some good horn designs Edgar horn, Avantgarde,Modern JBL,Oris, KCSloudspeakers,TAD, Goto, Ale in your price range maybe DIY or custom built would be best. You will not get horn bass in a small cabinet so your looking more at horn hybrid systems which most designs on the market are. Some of the old horns have problems with resonance and intergation of horns.Toss in old capacitors etc and I can see why when folks hear old horns they hear problems. Why judge modern designs by your experance with antiques. Like most all things tech horns have advanced. |
03-17-08: Gregm said:
"So I ask you what horns did you hear honk?
Perhaps a narrow circular (miscalculated exponential) front horn stretched fm upper to lower mids? A bit like those portable battery-powered pa devices?
I have been myself intrigued by this reported "honk" and usually attribute it to what is really a mismatch/ misalignment somewhere between tweet - mid- lower mid..."
Altec and Klipsh, many moons ago. Every horn set up that I heard was seriously colored with a nasal honk. I listen to a lot of trumpet and female vocals, so I couldn't abide that sound.
Tell me more. Is this a thing of the past?
Another question, why are consumer horns so darn expensive??? They seem relatively simple to make, yet Avant Garde gets into the tens of thousands quite quickly.
I want full range without taking up a ton of space and, of course, no honk. Where should I look?
Dave |
Johnk, sorry you seem to be taking this personally. I thought I was quite clear about stating that each person can be sensitive to different aspects of sonic performance.
A good analogy would be a musician having "perfect pitch." (This is the ability to accurately name a note with no external reference. Only about 10% of musicians have it and it is not a factor in how good of a musician a person becomes.) A person either has perfect pitch or they don't, but it is often tied to starting music training as a very young child. There is another example in synesthesia; some people experience it, most don't.
There is no reason to think that there are not many other sonic attributes that some people are more sensitive to than others. The fact that you or others don't hear a distinct attribute I've described as "honkiness" says more about the slight differences in what our hearing is sensitive to and how our brains process that signal than anything else. One should be able to state that without anyone feeling denigrated. Simply put, this trait is apparent to me even the highly regarded modern horn systems I've heard. It has always been apparent enough to preclude those types of speakers from consideration for my home system.
As for the distortion issue in ribbon tweeters, that's been an issue for as long as they've been around (75 years or more). Certainly modern technology and materials have made great strides in this area and efficiency, but that doesn't eliminate the fundamental design challenges. One also needs to understand that not all distortion sounds unpleasant. Certain types can be quite euphonic. (Think of musical instruments - it would be quite dull if they only produced pure sine waves. It the unique harmonics & distortion that give each instrument a unique sound.)
To use a perhaps more neutral analogy, think of cars. One can always put a bigger engine in a car and have it go faster, but that adds extra weight that affects the suspension, handling and braking. It is not too hard to imagine that one driver might value the extra power more while another driver would prefer a more nimble feel. Neither driver is "wrong" about their choice even though the engineering considerations are the same for both.
Things are what they are and different people gravitate toward different designs for a variety of reasons. No two people have their sonic priorities in exactly the same order. That alone helps explain why there are 1,000 or more speaker makes and models on the market today. If there were one design that was universally accepted as best, the list would be a lot shorter. |
I still have no clue as to what 'honking' is. Perhaps I am tone deaf thats why I like horns so much.
Vive le Difference! |
"03-15-08: Dcstep
Tell me, and I mean this in all seriousness and respect, is someone now making a horn speaker without that nasal midrange that drove me away from the old K-horns?? There's much to like about horns, particularly the easy dynamic range and ability to work with a great variety of amplification, including tubes.
If I were going to spend $10k, where would the horn lovers suggest that I look today?
Thanks,"
Try Zu's... Larger model is about your price point, a new player is the 8 k a pair model |
