Well I'm sure you "horn haters" have merit, after all if something sucks to your ears what good is it for someone to try to talk you out of it??? I bought my Khorns based on memory alone, when I got em I wawnt so impressed! cut to the chase.... after some research I bought ALK wood trachorns, ALK extreme slope xovers, crites tweeters JBL 2470 mid drivers and rewired them w/ cardas solid silver...The transformation was astonishing to say the least! Tube gear is a MUST I run Mcintosh MC2000's , C2300 preamp and tron seven reference phono stage. If your near Sullivan county NY come have a listen! |
Worked with horns for PA systems and theaters over 20 years ago. Never occurred to me to bring them home. Even back then, tried to sell custom line arrays with rare success (once). Not a typical line array by today's standard as it used a single horn tweeter, 6 X 10" and 6 X 5" and 2 amps per channel. |
Listener614, I still remember my first hearing of horn in the early '70s. A used pair of Klipschorns were sitting in the back room of a Tallahassee dealers hooked to a Dyna Stereo 70. The first piece was a snare drum which was so fast and loud that I almost fell off the high work seat I was sitting on. I bought them.
When it comes to speed and efficiency, there is nothing better. I am quite happy with my Tidals, but they are not a fast |
Ro425,
Are you serious that J. Gordon Holt agrees with you that horns are superior? I question that. |
im running an oris horn ultra setup, that consists of an oris 150 with aer bd3 driver on top, and an oris 150 with a fostex p38 15" driver on the bottom inside berts referance cabinet, amps are welborne 45 drd on top and rawsonte gainclones on bass, signal through a supratek chenin pre. source is a vpi tntwith a graham 1.5 arm and a lyra beta cart, crossover is a welborne revell set at 160hz , sound is nothing short of excellent, every person that enters my home and hears the system leaves with a new appreciation for sound, and horns............i will never go back |
I love horns.I own Edgarhorns and built back loaded horns.
They have a scale,richness and dynamic ease that is very musical.
Where they fail though is phase coherency. Compared to point source,planar or a really well designed dynamic speakers they can sound a bit diffuse and softly focussed.This seems to especially apply to large midrange horns where phase relationships due the physical placement of drivers relative to each other[a long way apart] is difficult to align.So you get a bit of a phasey sound.Things like voices can wander around a bit in the soundstage.
Of course placing a point source driver in a back and front loaded horn as Tannoy does overcomes this and still gives the horn magic. |
Moderator, please let this go through.
I have heard several of Johnks speakers at his place and he is correct. Some of his horns were Duos and Phy etc. Many others at his place were his own designs.
I guess it matters which horns you hear! |
I agree 99% with johnk, although I go to shows TO mainly listen to horn speakers. Since I crossed over circa 1993 to horns they are the only speakers that I will let occupy one end of my room. The realism (IMHO) that horns can produce is just not there for my ears in conventional speakers, that is not say all a enclosed speakers are bad, Its just they are not for me. I am smitten with my Oris 150's. And as stated earlier they are upgradeable without the possible need to get on both knees in front of the bank manager. |
Sean, you seem to have a lot of knowledge about speakers but when I e-mail you with links to a bunch of different drivers you never respond. What gives? |
Tbg,
Convention hall or jam packed hotel floors/rooms have to be the antithesis of proper listening conditions. The rooms are horrendous, sonically. AC Power is probably sludge. Ambient noise levels have got to be sky-high compared to home or actual audio shops. Structural/floor vibration levels have also got to be phenominal. Not many components are designed to perform well under those conditions.
Let alone the scarce amount of time exhibitors have to set up. Most truly great sounding home or shop audition rooms take months to fine tune into their best performance. Exhibitors have 2 days or les with all the other handicaps listed above and more.
I'm not saying that Edgarhorns are the best transducers on Earth, just that a properly setup system is truly impressive and unique in it's presentation.
As I mentioned, I use Dr E's system (and Eso's) as my own personal reference standard for sheer dynamics, ease of presentation, and the recreation of brass/horns. Nothing does horns like horns.
But, for tonality, coherence, and rich texture(along with size), I prefer well-done single-drivers right now. Something about it just seems "right" for me, personally.
Although, check with me in a year and I could have a whole different story/system.(finances permitting) |
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Coouugar, are you speaking of the LaCampanellas? If so, can you tell me more? Directly if you wish.
Darkmoebius and Skushino, I certainly agree about the benefits of horns, but I have yet to hear Edgarhorns that I would buy. I find them not true to live music, but then again perhaps listening to them at shows is not the best enviornment. |
As the Brits say, different horses for different courses. Based on my experience, a good horn speaker gets me closer to the experience of a live music event than other type of speaker. Given that speakers are typically the largest source of distortion, compression drivers and horn loading are an elegant solution because they have less mechanical movement compared to direct radiators. Planer speakers share this advantage, but aren't capable of displacing enough air to capture dynamics. As with most things, the key is in the implementation and execution.
But there are a lot of drawbacks, namely size, weight, number of drivers (at least 4 for true full-range reproduction). It would be very difficult to live with horns in a small room. I think this is the main reason for horns' lack of commercial success.
My Edgarhorns are superb all around. All speakers are compromised in some manner, but horns, if properly executed, are simply more true to live music.
Regards,
Scott |
I suggest anyone curious about horns find an opportunity to hear PROPERLY setup Edgarhorn Titans w/ Seismic sub. If you can get by having 2.5 refrigerators siting in your listening room, they are devoid of any RINGING(wooden horns) whatsoever and dynamic as all getout. Startling dynmaics, to tell the truth. There is an effortless quality to presentation that eases sound into your ears. No edge, honk, or screech at all.
I have never, ever, heard any horn setup like Edgar's (except ESO's DIY 4-way horn rig).
Although, i personally prefer the coherence of high-eff single-drivers to multi-way horn setups. That's a personal preference, not performance related.
As they say, there something for everyone out there. |
That I have upgraded to crossovers, binding post, and internal speaker wire. These sounded OK before the upgrade but now sound really nice with most gear, very nice on strings, vocal, and horns.
Steve. |
Early on in my audio quest, I had Klipschorns, but I had a hole in the center. I bought Infnity ServoStatics which only gave me two windows to the recording studio. After trying every form of drivers, I heard the movie, the Last of the Mohicans on Altec VOTs. The amps were tube PP amps, but I was once again hooked by the horns' ability to have the pace and impact of sound, not just music.
Like others I think horns in general have two problems: needing many drivers to cover the full range, resulting in poorly integrated sound and honky or ringing horns. When I bought the Beauhorns, I got neither. The single driver was well integrated over the range that it could cover, and the box was deliberately resonant. The only problem was the bass was deficient as was the top end. The top end was easily dealt with using the Muratas, but there are no decent subwoofers to mate with horn drivers. Also the Lowthers are not compression drivers, which I find to be quicker.
I now have the Acapella LaCampanellas which are well integrated and almost as quick as the Beauhorns. They lack the plasma tweeter, but it always has stood out for me as better than the rest of the system. I once considered buying a full blown Goto compression driver system with 5 horns, but not only the expense but the question of integrating 5 horns deterred me.
In short I have a compromise speaker system and think I have no alternative. |
I dont think anyone has as yet on this forum seriusly faulted horns in general. |
High efficiency horns + tube amps & tube preamp = heaven.
If they are old horns rebuild the crossover. If the horns are metal and you think they are too harsh dampen them with dynamat or switch to a composite material horn.
HORNS ROCK! |
The only joke is on the folks who say that modern horns perform badly, this is a bunch of BS.They image great ,have huge dynamics, large sound stage, can produce massive SPL without strain and can run on the smallest of amps.Most folks dont own horns because of WAF, price, size and there wrongly given bad reputation.Theres more SUV owners out there than Sports car owners does this mean a SUV has higher on road performance? Just because most folks own conventional loudspeakers doesnt make them better than horns.Thats why so many guys I know that have tried most everything system wise end up Hi eff and tube.Seems the folks who only hear horns briefly a shows or demos seem to be the ones with the - opinions, horn owners who have tried the rest in there system love there horns. |
Good for your caledonian soul and when you really want the music in your face which is a good thing. Subtlties be damned. |
The RINGING of metal horns cause SEVERE MIGRAINE headaches. The concentrated sound can SHATTER SKULL BONES. I would not get within one quarter mile of a working metal horn, these are called DRIVERS because they drive you NUTS. Horns are only good on tug boats and firetrucks. JBL originally designed the 375 as a tug boat horn for foggy days. It was later used in the KOREAN WAR on the end of a four foot tube as a weapon to shatter skull bones. I suggest that anyone using a compression driver get an MRI of the skull on a weekly basis to check for fractures of the skull. The high intensity acoustic waves can easily penitrate the skull and burn holes in the brain, thus more inmates can be added to the asylum. These drivers cause standing waves on the skull surface, the intense migranes last for hours to days. Ask any horn "user" if he has frequent headaches. Do you really want to be a "Horn Man"? Are you horny for headach pain? Horns should have been phased out with the Victrola horns. Comments... |
Luke,
I have found the violon highs indeed a joy, wonderfully musical & a sight to behold. I am about to get the esoteric p-01/d-01/g-0s system with them in a few weeks - the plasma tweeter is aparently even more of a revelation with excellent SCAD playback. Do an audition, life is short & the pleasure you'll get from these speakers is in the same league as great sex.
Dr Jonathan Spratt |
Not at all. Horns, like cone speakers, come in a variety of performance capabilities. IOW, some work very well, are highly revealing and others pretty much suck at the same task- just like cone or for that matter planar speakers. It would be throwing out the baby with the bath to assume that just because one horn speaker sounds terrible, that they all do! |
funny how nearly in every single set up i have heard horn speakers in the final result is still the same. I have heard the avantgardes with valve amps in hifi shows and in my own room. I am not denying you cannot get a smooth response at the top end but this is almost always with sacrifice to the overall transparency and imaging (what little there is that is).
Furthermore horn lovers are not the ordained ones, horn speakers are outnumbered in the high end systems with low powered triodes etc. I bet by 10:1 at least. Are we saying therefore the rest of the audiophile fraternity are thick? |
Just FWIW... to get horns and other high efficiency speakers to sound right usually involves an amplifier with a relatively high impedance output. Nelson Pass published an excellent article that raised this issue in Audio Express around the beginning of this year.
High efficiency speaker tend to be highly reactive and do not take kindly to overdamping! So the best sound is usually with an amplifier of higher output impedance. This, combined with the fact that tubes sound better then transistors anyway, is why SETs and OTLs are the best amps for horns. Just about any other combination will get you shrill results due to the reactive nature of the speaker.
IOW, horns are not shrill by nature. They get this reputation from being used with the wrong equipment! |
I bought a pair of Avantgarde Duos 2 years ago - best upgrade ever in 25 years of hi-fi. I started off selling hi-fi with Ken Kessler - I'm now a surgeon. Nevertheless, I have been imbued with a tube and vinyl ethos, which I've kept for all this time.
The Duos have been a stunning upgrade; even my wife thinks they sound good. She doesn't care about hi-fi - all she wants is a Steinway; she's a family practitioner as well as a pianist. The Duos are even more stunning than when I mounted my Garrott Brothers London Decca Cartridge back in 1980, which was awesome. It's true that you have to spend time setting them up, but that's true of most high end kit esp turntables. |
Hi JDSpratt
I owned the avantgarde duos and never ever got on with them. Great dyamic shadings, but if you wanted to reduce their harshness in the upper octaves by change of room placement or alternative gear you would have to sacrifice the deatiled transparency. Furthermore the bass sound was awful and its integration with the rest of the speaker was even worse.
It painted in light strokes and there was never any escaping that whatever you used. Boy did I use equipment like there was no tomorrow.
I am looking for alternatives and would like to have that excitement of horn speakers with the solidity, soundstaging and tonal warmth of cones. I wonder if the acapellas are the ones for me.
Luke |
I am in ecstasy with my recently acquired acapella high violons - I was not a horn fan until I heard these & the midrange is totally artefact free & life-like & mated with that awesome plasma tweeter... & yes Bob, I am amazed at the dynamic & holographic sound from the horn at low levels which is fabulous for late night listening - I may well sell my stax omegas now - I think the violons are more detailed & yet more relaxing in the HF than these world class cans. |
It's an old thread, but I don't care...
I love the sound of horn speakers. My purchase in 1975 of a pair of Altec 846 B Valencias is the best $600 bucks I ever spent.
So very efficient and yet so powerful. The punch, the clarity, and the dynamic range cannot be described. And now that I'm beyond my heavy metal days, they are even more amazing to me now that I've rediscovered how great they sound at low volume levels. |
I'm going to hang on to my Realistic Mach 1's! I've seriously wondered if there was something I could do with these to reach the sonic level previous members have shared. Any suggestions or are these a joke? |
speakers are the most flawed part of a system. no matter what speaker you use almost, if you have a good front end and amp you will get at least reasonable sound. single-ended amps are the best sounding amps something like using a crossoverless speaker. there is a certain purity to them that a speaker as critical as a horn requires for best sound. the idea that one uses a horn speaker only because of their sensitivity to play their low powered se amp is just wrong. horns deisgned to give a semi-spherical wave form (like avantgarde and others)combined with their inherent low distortion are theoretically the ultimate way to go. horns with well damped flares will have low coloration to boot. |
I just bought a pair of Altec 886A's for $75.00. hooked em up the other night WOW. I geta Hard-On when I listen to them. |
I heard many horn speakers and I can say they're all joke EXCEPT Avantgarde, but they consider to be not full-horn speakers except Trios that cost $50k at least, but even with no woofers go down to 32hz flat.
Blw, you might not believe but you can adjust the stage so they will not be so immediate. For example you can schuffle arround with placement of midrange and tweeter, you can bend it backwards or forward, you can adjust the crossover depending on what amp you're dealing with. Despite for their ultra-high efficiency they still neet to be driven with preferably >=15W/ch amp in order to comply with woofer amp. It does take a good half of year to set them up to your perfection but I tend to believe to manufacturer about their precision of music they're designed for. |
Amen to Sean's post. C'est La Vie |
The bottom line is that each and every speaker design will benefit from specific strengths, suffer from specific weaknesses AND contribute their own sonic signature to whatever is being fed into them. There is not a speaker made that can be distanced from the above generalization. Until we do have speakers that can make that claim, the selection of speakers will remain a VERY personal and subjective decision. Let's just hope that people are happy with whatever it is that they decide to buy / use and can enjoy their favorite musical selections with their speakers of choice, regardless of the various trade-offs involved. Sean
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Many years ago I tried out a cheap University (brand) HORN midrange/tweeter with my Warfdale 12 inch woofer (which had a wool flanel surround, would you believe!). At the time I played a lot of Dixieland jazz, and the horn tweeter gave the most fantastic rendition of trumpets and trombones that I have ever heard. Of course, violins also sounded like trumpets.
The message here is that different speakers do different things well. How about a selector switch to cut in a Horn when appropriate. |
I have owned speaker like the martin logan prodigy ,with descent, heard at lenght my good friends avalon edilons and thiel 7.2,owned avantgarde duo, newer model ,and quite a few more speaker systems ,have gone from big $ solid state and tube gear, to low power afordable tube gear ,And I can say with confidence that the newer horn designs are not anything like the old horns ,my dual oris horn systen is phase correct and time alined, unlike avantgarde or other horn systems ,the new tactrix horns are far superior to all speakers systems I have heard and owned ,They are far from in your face of tiny honky sounding ,funny how most of the traits that people say horns sound like I have never heard [maybe they never did too].Anyway throw out your big solid state rigs and those terible monkey cofins or electrostatic air cleaners that need new diaframs every few years ,[that most people call speakers ],and discover what its like to have fun with your system ,I can play all types of music on my horns ,they just sound like music .Isnt that what we all want . |
horns are ceratinly an "in-your-face" presentation: transient immediacy, detailed & very revealing are their hallmarks & some don't like that, although myself I'm hooked on their speed. They are in fact SO revealing that they will unmercifully show you any upline equipment flaws, so a clean setup is absolutely critical, which can of course be quite difficult & expensive to achieve. This characteristic may be considered desirable, or not, depending upon one's goals & perspective. |
I think they're just different. I have a friend who has some pretty old Klipsch horns, and they sound very nice. I haven't heard them in a few months (they're 290 miles away). They're clearly different from my electrostatics in some subtle ways.
I auditioned the AvantGarde Duos a few weeks ago, specifically because they're considered good horns. It wasn't an exhaustive session, but it was very clear that they are doing something different. Some folks like the AvantGardes because they are so immediate. They are indeed very up-front - I thought that "in your face" might be more accurate. Some folks like that, although I personally prefer a more laid-back presentation. |
Hahahaha... Good for you Judith. Do you have any sisters ? : ) Sean
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Sean,
My husband agrees with you, in part. He agrees that there are no perfect speakers.
Judith |
I'd love to hear those ion tweeters. |
Remember now, there are different kinds of horns. There are front horns and back horns. I agree that the front horns do tend to have colorations that can be distracting. But rear horns rely primarily on direct radiator sound, with the rear wave being horn-loaded to reinforce the bass frequencies and the mid-bass that drops off due to baffle-step losses. They usually behave as bass horns down to a point, and behave as a tuned port below that, if they are made well. This allows lower bass than expected from the given horn length and mouth size. Lammhorn 1.8 is particularly good for this type of back-horn speaker. Efficiency is a little lower than front horn types, but coloration can be less, also. Back horn is the type I selected for my low power SET system. I like it. |
Until this year, I would probably have said that horns while very dynamic were not an ultimate answer given inherent colorations. two things have changed that perception, (1) the purchase by a friend of Lowther based horns and (2) my own purchase of a set of Acapella Campaniles which utilize an ion tweeter, a midrange horn and four 10" woofers. With respect to the Lowthers, while they are somewhat deficient at the frequency extremes, they exhibit a continuousness and presence that seem right to me, paricularly with single ended amps. With respect to the Acapellas, to my great surprise, given adequate breakin and proper positioning in the room and toe-in, the drivers mate very nicely and the sound does not localize on the drivers. All in all, a stunning achievement. |
Sean, I think your onto something, but maybe your priorities mixed up. I made the same mistake. |
yeah she probably has multiples to choose from too :) |
Unsound: Thanks for the kind words and vote of confidence. Having said that though, i don't think that there is any one speaker design that can do it all.
With that in mind, I like to compare speakers to women. They may all have some worthwhile and / or beautiful trait's, but i have yet to find one that combines all of the "features" and "performance" that i'm looking for*. As such, i've resorted to having multiples to choose from ( speakers, not women ) and tried to work with each of their strengths and minimize their weaknesses within each system. While we can't have it all, I sure can try : ) Sean
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* I'm sure that the ladies feel the same way about men too, especially my girlfriend : ) |
Horns are usually efficient and dynamic, and I hate them! I have never heard a pair that I liked. I have heard the CARS with Atmosphere amps in another hotel room at a different show than Sean attended and people were scampering out muttering some very critcal things. I usually agree with Sean on most everything, but until I hear different I'm not buying into horns. I suspect the previous post about people prefering low powered SET amps being attracted to them carries a lot of truth. To my way of thinking, thats like buying a car because you like to use a particular octane gasoline. I will say that they probably are an appropriate choice for many, just not me. |
I have settled on the Köchel K300 horns coupled with Atma-Sphere M60 amps and have no intention to look elsewhere. I might consider some subwoofers down the road, after settling on a digital source and some further tweakery. I don't get to listen to many other systems, but I have a truly difficult time imagining a better setup. I don't doubt they are out there, but Lord this is good. |
I owned a pair of Klipshorns for a year and was never able to make them sound very good. This could easily be blamed on my room and electronics but I finally gave up and bought an M&K satellite/sub system that I used happily for about 20 years.
I wonder if anyone has experimented with some of the speaker correction hardware that has become available in the last few years. If you could take the good attributes of horns like dynamics and low distortion and correct the anomalies, I think you'd have something really great. |
