Are Disc Players Dead?

Kijanki ... good ending to your post , LOL .

That's true, all drives eventually fail, except drives that are not in use - backup. Just in case I keep second backup at my work. Both backups are protected from mechanical damage and static electricity (one is in the fireproof safe).

Total cost of it was less than $200. One can argue that both backups can fail in some strange event. If it is nuclear explosion I'm not worrying, but if it is anything else I still have CDs - music is not lost, only some amount of labor. It wasn't a lot of work to start with since I ripped what I was listening.

Al, I agree about statistics. When president of my company walks his dog outside, they both have three legs (statistically). Also tattoos are major cause of motorcycle accidents.

Kijanki, I believe HP uses Hitachi.

4/5 is not a terrible overall rating. That was the original model, which I had, and it worked flawlessly.

I currently have the newer 5 bay NS (network only) model, and it's even better. Software has improved, and though I have yet to lose a drive, I've read nothing but stellar reviews on no data loss on those as well.

I used to have a RAID array, but it was a pain to maintain.

Hi Mac,

I wouldn't be so sure. On the NewEgg.com page for this Drobo model, click on the "Feedback" tab, which currently shows 114 user comments. Sort them by "lowest rated," and read the comments by the 20 people, out of those 114, who gave it the lowest possible rating, with many of them reporting data loss.

Best regards,
-- Al

Sorry Al, I that's such a small possiblity, I don't worry about that, not a realistic sceneario.

These above examples concerning hard drives and computers really seem to validate Nglazer`s main point, this is still very much a work in progress with a ways to go yet.

Hi Mac,

Yes, a Drobo is definitely a neat approach. Keep in mind, though, that neither it nor anything else is 100% fail-safe, and so it doesn't eliminate the need for a separate second backup for really important stuff. For instance, if the power supply or the controller circuits in the Drobo were to go berserk, all of its drives could conceivably be corrupted or damaged simultaneously.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al, I lost a bunch of drives too, that's why I paid up for the Drobo after much research, and loss of some priceless digital video footage of our chidren (thank God we found the actual digital tapes), and of course then having to re-load hundreds and hundreds, probably thousands to be honest, of CD's.

Look into it. I have had drives fail in the Drobo, it just tells me it failed, I buy and replace that drive, no loss of info.

Very, Very cool.

10-04-11: Jeffreybehr
Do remember that there are only 2 kinds of HDs--those that have failed and those that will.

Very well put.

My perception has been that hard drive longevity is pretty much unpredictable, and any correlation between the likelihood of failure and the brand of the drive will vary over the years.

Around 10 or 12 years ago IBM manufactured a widely used series of drives called the Deskstars, which failed so frequently that they were widely referred to as the IBM Deathstars. I had one of them, and it lasted about 5 months. Shortly afterwards IBM got out of the business, selling that division to Hitachi.

BTW, IMO one of the ultimate examples of the famous saying popularized by Mark Twain, that there are "lies, damn lies, and statistics," are the MTBF (mean time between failure) specs that are often provided by hard drive manufacturers. Those numbers are commonly on the order of a million hours or so, which is about 114 years. But what the number really means is that if a very large number of drives are run at the same time, then on average one of those drives will fail for each million cumulative hours of operation of all the drives. In other words, the statistic doesn't take into account the failure rate increase that will occur as the drives get older.

Regards,
-- Al

I use a Drobo for a network drive. Just plugged into my router. It backs itself up, very cool, and I can hot swap any 2 of the 5 drives that fail without any loss of data.

It works!!

"I had 5 hard drives fail in 5 years."

We have whole bunch of computers at work, perhaps 30, and one or two failures over 20 years. We end up replacing computers earlier (10 years or so) because they're getting outdated - that might be the reason. What is the brand that gave you 5 failures in five years?

I had 5 hard drives fail in 5 years.

Dhl93449 - Taiyo Yuden guarantees 100 years. The issue is dye. Long lasting phthalocyanine dye (Mitsui Gold, Mitsui Silver) is more expensive than cyanine dye and can last 200 years on gold but is more sensitive to light and laser power variations. Cyanine dye is by itself unstable and has to be stabilized. I'm not sure what Taiyo Yuden uses but they invented CD-R technology and are known to be very reliable and long lasting. I went thru perhaps 500 Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs and never had bad one or one that failed. I have many about 15 years old CD-Rs working fine.

As for hard drives - I might be very lucky but I had only one disk failure at work and one at home (laptop) in last 25 years. Currently I'm running 6 hard disks at home and 2 at work for many years without any problems. In addition to these 6 drives I have two backups - just in case. Very often people who have failures are more likely to write but even then my drives (Fantom G-Force) have pretty good review. As soon as prices of SS drives drop down more I'm getting one for music storage.

Ladies, gentlemen, and other harddrive users, do remember that there are only 2 kinds of HDs--those that have failed and those that will. That's supposed to remind you do create backups of your data as others have mentioned they do.

And no, discplayers are NOT dead. I suspect there are FAR more users of discplayers than computer-music-servers among musiclovers.
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Kijanki:

I have not had a hard drive fail either, but I use very expensive SCSI drives for my servers. The popular and cheap SATA drives have a poor reliability record. Just look at the selection of reviews on NewEgg for any of them.

Even though I have not had a drive failure, migrating data from older SCSI drives is still a major pain. Newer drives are much faster and have different connectors, so getting data off an older SCSI drive is problematic from a system integration point of view. And I did have a lot of data stored on Jazz media, now you cannot find a playback/read device for these unless you get some used junk off EBay.

I have not heard of any media that has a real, proven 100 year lifespan. You are luckiy if you can get most consumer burned media to play back properly in more than one playback device.

Online backups are an option but even the fastest wideband is gonna take quite a while to download 1 Terabyte in data.

No, not yet...and oh, by the way, please - I'd like one of everything else too.

"LP's are another story..." - that's true, and it has to be done right. Early digitized music was A/D converted using jittery clock. This jitter appears as noise and cannot be removed ever. The only remedy is to A/D it again if analog master still exist. Good A/D hardware might be pricey.

LP's are another story...

Abucktwoeighty, It is not time consuming at all. Instead of putting CD int CDP insert it into computer and play while you rip. Do only disk that you listen to and eventually you'll go thru all of them.

I echo your thoughts Abuck.

It took me a lifetime to accumulate all of my vinyl, and many years to accumulate the CD's. I'm getting up there in age, and I'm not about to start monkeying around, trial and error, trying to find the best way to use a computer for listening pleasure. It will take me forever to download all of that music, and I don't have the time. It may be the way of the future, and the top of the digital mountain, but I'll stick around down the the lowlands with my antiquated discs. The music is excellent enough for me where I don't need to make such a time consuming change to get a little bit better sound. If I were younger, yeah, I'd be there.

Many interesting and thought provoking comments here. I tend to agree with Nglazer here. I just don't have confidence in what's available today and worry that it might be obsolete in the near future. When large ss hard drives become more affordable, when formats become more standardized and easily backwards compatible, and reliability is proven, I'll jump in.
One thing that nobody seemed to mention is that if one wants to move their disc storage to either a server or a cloud, you'll still need a disc player to do it.

Commercially they are dead. More or less. Based on the huge amount of available CD's most Audiophiles will stay with their units but the younger generation will go to downstream (or already does). It was not possible to keep the quality of music as a Standard, now it is reduced to Entertainment. No one cares about quality (this started in the mid 90's based on cost reduction...) And high quality downstream is a nice marketing gag, but it is just another tool to earn some money.
In a few years the only real High End will be analog, not because of the quality, more or less based on visual movement. The Audiophile has something to touch, he sees something moving, the turntables can be ultra expensive and he can show his visitors that he is a serious guy. The rest of the world uses a server.

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Programmergeek, I see the s7i sells for about $6k. Did you put that much money towards a killer DAC? You may not be making a fair comparison. I'm sure that with $6k some of the guys here that know what they're doing could put together a DAC and digital player combo that could equal the s7i.
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I agree with Macdactexas 100%. I did the server thing about a year ago and got a bryston dace kimber cable USB and ripped lossless. The sound was not near what my cd player, now I have a s7i and I think on my system a server would be hard pressed to play better than that. I am a computer guy by trade so I really wished the pc worked out I am tired of scratched disks and switching etc. But the detail was just not there.

Slipknot1, that was just a classic response, and oh so correct.

Are Disc Players Dead?

No, they just smell funny...

Macdactexas,

I have had an iPod and have been using iTunes since the day Apple came out with a Windows - capable iPod. I use a Classic with a Wadia i170 into my W4S DAC2. I am highly computer literate and easily could go the route you suggest. But my experience with Toslink has been poor and I have not read much that was good about AppleTV or equivalent for truly high end sound. I have not heard of for a computer audio route to compare to my RAM modded CEC TL-1X transport, via a Stealth Sextet digicable, to W4S DAC2: 2 components and a cable, top of the line sound, works every time. No kernel streaming, ASIO, WASAPI, crashes, dropouts, ripping, burning, downloading, backup, viruses, incomprehensible or nonexistent instructions, firmware, infirmware, et al. When computer audio routinely gets rid of those impediments, sign me up.

I may yet try a Mac Mini just to prove myself wrong, which I would love to do and I will be the first to admit it, but I doubt that will happen.

Neal

Nglazer, I hear you. I'm also getting mad with all the stupid system errors but that's why I bought Mac. From this point on everything went without any problems. Computer works like swiss watch and now I understand how bad the Windows is. Since many people prefer dedicated server and MacMini is not that expensive it is better and safer way to go.

I agree with you that hard disk based music server, instead of computer would be easier and better for many people but it is too expensive and not flexible. Separate DAC allows me to upgrade it in the future. The same goes for external hard drive.

I'm far from recommending this route to everybody. I would always advice against it to elderly, computer illiterate people, including my mother. To her CDP is way too complicated.

digital players will be dead when it is impossible to buy them. until then, they are not dead.

Nglazer,

That's just dead wrong. All you need to do it download iTunes and use AIFF or Apple Loseless files though a good DAC (just buy an AppleTV for $99 to run it through your home stereo via Toslink). Done.

I doubt many people in this day and age, especiallly audiophiles are not familiar with iTunes for use with iPods or iPhones. That's all you need.

AppleTV (or the like), into a DAC. If you have a wireless network at home (don't even tell me 99.9% of those on here do not given the socio-economic makeup of people in this hobby) the AppleTV will easliy sign on to the network, find your open iTunes library, and play it like you are using your iPod. It's that easy.

Kijanki,

I don't think there are many people who don't use a computer, even though they think it is buggy and confucing (myself among them, even though I was an early adapter going back to DOS days). I think you can see from the comments in this thread that there is a wide range of experiences with computer audio, some of it great, some tolerable, some not so good. That is not the case with CDP's or transports and DAC's. That is my only point. And I also think it is much more difficult to get audiophile - grade SQ from computer based audio than CD-based. You need the right computer, backup hardware and software, player software, streamer or player hardware, USB or Toslink or firewire cables and good, reasonably priced download source and/or ripper software. That's a lot of pieces in which something can go wrong, even before they all have to communicate with each other. I just don't think computer audio is there yet for a high percentage of actual and prospective users. I eagerly await the day it is. I carry no brief for shiny discs, but nothing in this world sends my blood pressure higher than indecipherable error messages.

Neal

Dhl93449,

as many have already said on here, this is an easily solved potential problem.

1) back up hard drive

2) internet back up - done once to an internet based source, then every night it automatically updates any changes from your home based hard drive, to the web based storage. Solved.

Dhl93449 - Maybe I was lucky, but I never experienced failure of stationary hard drive. Just in case I have 2 backups, but I agree with you that CD on the shelf is safer (unless you have fire or theft). I have three hard disks containing exact copies (one at work), but in addition I have still all CDs on the shelf.

I'm not worrying about scratching CDs either, but rather about better playback of used scratched CD that I bought. Ripping such CDs as data CD will improve quality (copy better than original).

I agree about CD-R and especially DVDs not lasting long - unless you pick better media that uses higher quality die guaranteed to last 100 years (Taiyo Yuden). On the other hand I will be deaf in 20 and dead in 40 years - why to worry now.

Good point about media obsolution. I'm already thinking of getting large Solid State (Flash) drive to copy my hard drive into it. Flash drives have limited number of write cycles but last forever with reading and have no mechanical parts - perfect for long lasting reliable music server.

Another thing folks are overlooking. There is NO storage media in a PC or Mac that is archival quality. What happens when your hard drive crashes and destroys all your files? Or you lose or misplace a thumb drive? They can be a pain to recover. And those CDROMs and DVDs that are burned in consumer burners will not last 20 years either. Commercial CDs have a better chance, and I have some that are early 80's (that's 30 years) that still play fine.

Playing a CD does not wear it out, unless you are such a putz you scratch the surface. Most of mine are perfect because I take some moderate care in handling them and storing them.

The rapid obsolecence of digital media make the constant migration of your stored data a constant and perpetual task. If you had data on Jazz drives or other obsolete media (floppies?) you are SOL now trying to get it back.

For me, they sure are.

The Squeezebox (for all the music in the house), and my laptop (for just *my* music, processed by a particular software package) out to my DAC, produce - at the *very least* - the same sound, without having to mess with sifting through all the media. I used to be the guy who said that I would never go this route "because I like to take my time, and be able to sit back with the liner notes." - (etc) - This is no longer the case. And if I really feel the desire, I can always refer to the disc still on the rack in the other room.

I hate to say it, but I've also ditched vinyl for this. I don't have the money for a rig that, in my opinion, will make the music sound any better. I don't have the money for the high price (ridiculous in a lot of cases, now-a-days) of decent vinyl (that still isn't flat), or much enjoy to spend the time associated with the whole process any more...and my OCD just gets far too much in the way. ;)

Nglazer - many people still don't use computers seeing them as confusing, buggy and not as reliable as abacus.

I use Mac Mini with Benchmark DAC1 thru Apple Airport Express with short Toslink. It works without any problem for a long time. Computer did not hang-up since I bought it almost 3 years ago. Sound is exactly same as one from CDP directly to DAC. I have external firewire hard drive and two backups. One of the backups I keep at work in case of fire of theft.

This is not to say that the day of server-based systems that reliably provide as high SQ and reliability as CDP or Transport - DAC based systems is not coming. But, as Charles1dad points out, currently (no pun intended) they are just too "buggy" and too many audio manufacturers have rushed servers, streamers and USB Dac's out the door too quickly, in order to ride the wave. At least the early CDP's, while far from the apogee of SQ, played reliably. My Magnavox CDB 650 (or something like that), the first 16-bit CDP, still plays! I wasn't on the phone with Tech Support 5 times a day -- ever!

Believe me, I would love to use a server-based system and not have to elevate my corpus, get vertical, use my upper extremities, and actually pick out a CD to listen to in its organic entirety!

Neal

"Apparently lossless digital isn't as perfect as many would lead us to believe"

Files can be better than original CD. The reason for that is that CD player cannot read the same sector many times, playing in real time, thus interpolating data when scratches on CD are longer than 4mm (quits at 8mm). Digital file can be ripped using EAC or MAX as data files reading sectors many times until proper checksum is obtained.

I enjoy both my CDP/CDs AND my vinyl set-up. As far as vinyl is concerned, there seems to be quite a bit available on the web.

In my case, and perhaps the same for many others as well too, there's a great used LP store about 15 minutes from my house. I can pick up old box-sets for $8-$15, e.g., yesterday I enjoyed listening to Beethoven's 9th, H. Karajan conducting, Berlin Philharmonic, DG -- 2 record box set. Perhaps I'm just lucky, but the LP store that sold that box set to me does a great job of screening out LPs that are generally in very good to excellent condition.

OK, enough said about vinyl. The vinyl debate continues to rage on.

One last comment about digital. I agree with the posts above that embrace the view that "redbook" CD will be around for a while. So, I'm not inclined to sell my CDP or my CD collection just yet, not even for 99 cent a CD.

My concern about new digital formats is alluded to in some of the comments above. It seems that a popular format or media is now "Clouds." Other than the white puffy stuff I see in the sky, I haven't a clue what Cloud media/format is.

And that makes my point. IMHO, the recording and music distribution inductry needs to settle on a standard format. Even if I were to purchase a DAC today, it will do me no good if the DAC is not compatible with the latest cutting edge format in vogue, be it Clouds or whatever. But having said that, if the music industry would settle on a new hi-rez format that is superior to redbook CD, and the new format was the only game in town, then I would consider giving it a try.

That's my opinion, being somewhat of an old-head.

Cloud is useless when your internet connection goes down. And yes it happens.

Vinyl will always be around because to some, it represents the ultimate in sonic quality. It is a major pain to use, and very expensive these days to outfit with hardware (TT, RIAA phono preamp, and the LPs themselves). It has fallen down the priority scale because of the convenience factor of digitally based media.

I'm stuck at the CD stage myself, prefering CD discs to thumb drives or WiFi connections. I still like to be able to pull a jewel case and view the cover art, and still look at the concept of an "album" as a related sequence of sonic experiences. Not a digitally selected set of random top 40's hits. I have Direct TV music channels for that kind of listening, and I don't do it on my high end audio system.

Plus the direct digital route is fraught with other problems. Just go to the computeraudiophile site and read about sonic quality losses from digital files being sent from common PCs or Macs. Apparently lossless digital isn't as perfect as many would lead us to believe. Plus, ever have your computer go down when playing a sound file via USB? The resulting screech will tear your ears off.

Clouds may be the way to go but I hope they put enough silver iodine in them to keep them around. I can just imagine everything being on a cloud and then, poof! Where did it go? This is all in jest but I remember someone 'loosing' the entire 18th century in the original "Rollerball" movie. Everything was on a giant server and everyone had access to it but someone felt it best to forget the Enlightenment.

I agree, using servers and hard drives is so like 2010.

Where did my cloud go?

When will the audio folks start discussing about "cloud" music? Servers are such old technology now. Talk to twenty-something interns and it's all about "cloud". Guys, you are so old...and so am I :-)

Question: How do ones and zeros on a cd sound better than ones and zeros on a hard drive? As I said on a thread I started a while ago, I think people who haven't embraced the server/dac method don't want to spend the time transferring their collection or are scared of computers. Before you guys attack me on this, take a look at other threads regarding this topic and you'll see a lot of people list the same reasons.

Good news for me. Sell off all your CDs for 99 cents and Im there to buy them !!

If someone prefers vinyl to CD that`s a personal /subjective choice(nothing wrong with that). To compare CD sales volume with LPs is a losing battle for vinyl, there`s simply no comparison. Analogue records are a tiny niche and will remain so(sound quality can be debated until the cows come home).Both formats have the potential to sound fantastic, just choose the one you like. I don`t understand the need to draw a line in the sand.

Macdadtexas, Vinyl production has increased from practically nothing. Tomcy6 has provided some very useful statistics.

The only true test is to spend as much time, energy and expense into CD as you do in vinyl while making CD your primary source. Only then will you realize the capabilities of CD and wonder why you listened to ticks and pops.

Here are some figures for cd and lp sales and shipments for 2010:

According to Nielsen SoundScan, in 2010:

235 million cds were sold (approximately)*
2.8 million lps were sold

*cds were not broken out separately, thus the approximation.

According to the RIAA, in 2010:

226 million cds were shipped
4.0 million lps were shipped

The Beatle's Abbey Road was the biggest selling lp with 35,000 sold. Suburbs by Arcade Fire was a distant second.

Sales of cds are declining, sales of lps and digital downloads are increasing. Disc players will remain an essential item for many audiophiles and casual listeners for a long time to come though.

Someone may even build a disc player that makes cds sound better than vinyl starting a cd revival. Could happen.