I am looking for the weak link to improve sound quality. Seems logical it is the Apple TV as a source. Would a moderate streamer inside of $1500 make much of a difference when streaming Tidal and the like?
Current Equipment: Speaker: Dali Euphonia MS-4 AMP: Modwright KWA 150 SE Preamp/ DAC: Peachtree Grand Integrated Source: Tidal / Apple TV
I’m glad I found this thread as well. I’ve been looking at using a Chromecast Audio and / or AppleTV as a streaming device. I saw the iFi Purifier and comments that it really cleans up the optical output. Talked to Rich B at Signature Sound about one of those just yesterday...
Funny thing... I’ve also been eyeballing the Border Patrol DAC. Steve, thanks for your candor in this thread. If you happen to catch this thread again... You mentioned that the Metrum and Border Patrol DACs "enable the benefits of the SM (Synchro-Mesh)". Can you elaborate on that? Is there something different about Non-Oversampling DACs that make them work better with your Synchro-Mesh unit?
You all have my head spinning and I am glad I found this thread...if only to resurrect it 3 months later. I am in the process of building a new home office. I am a graphic-designer for a living and thus DEEPLY entrenched in the Apple eco-system. I have a few older gen ATV's and AX's laying around. My plan for my office was a pair of KEF LS50 wireless connected to an older ATV via Toslink. I do have some HD audio files in my library that I would love to hear at their full potential but it sounds like in order to do so, my idea of using the older ATV via Toslink may need a rethink?...
Sure it does. The better the HDMI cable, the more clear and focused the picture will be.
Not true. The picture is digital, pixel-by-pixel. It's not a radio signal. For example, some answers from proper guys here https://goo.gl/Wx7Skp HDMI doesn't have an error-correction protocol, but you either get a picture as-is or don't get it at all.
For $150 for the iFi SPDIF iPurifier, what do you have to lose? Just return it to Amazon if it doesn't work for you. This will give you a small taste of what a reclocker can do.
Agreed. Waiting for my Chromecast Audio/iPurifier to try.
Steve, thx for your response. Just making it clear. If HDMI supports bitstream, that means it transfers a digital signal bit-by-bit, so there can be no jitter lugs whatsoever.
Not true. Jitter is ALWAYS a factor to minimize. Never zero. Any company that claims zero is dreaming.
But if it’s a properly made HDMI cable then it doesn’t affect a digital data is transfers.
Sure it does. The better the HDMI cable, the more clear and focused the picture will be.
why 18Gbps (2.0) is not enough to transfer a bitstream hi-res audio via HDMI when here can be no jitter/need for reclockers/etc.?
This is not just bandwidth, although that is important. The dielectric absorption and reflections from the fast-rising digital signal impinging on the discontinuities in the conductor crystal-lattice all cause the signal to have poor "integrity". What is important is the risetime of the signal, not the frequency of the signal. It requires a really good HDMI cable, Ethernet cable, S/PDIF cable or USB cable to maintain these risetimes and not create reflections that impact sound quality.
This is why I only use pure silver digital cables from Wireworld or Empirical Audio. It’s the difference between music and live music.
As for reclockers, these make an even bigger difference for both Home Theater Dolby Digital and for PCM audio tracks. You don't know what you are missing until you try one of these. For $150 for the iFi SPDIF iPurifier, what do you have to lose? Just return it to Amazon if it doesn't work for you. This will give you a small taste of what a reclocker can do.
Steve, thx for your response. Just making it clear. If HDMI supports bitstream, that means it transfers a digital signal bit-by-bit, so there can be no jitter lugs whatsoever. E.g. when you transfer a digital video via HDMI you can’t see a radio-style noise on like on old TV screens, because the data comes as is. The only possible visual artefacts you may encounter is a "snow" on some bad cheap cables or don't see anything at all because the data is corrupted. But if it’s a properly made HDMI cable then it doesn’t affect a digital data is transfers. So I just want to make everything clear step-by-step, for example: why 18Gbps (2.0) is not enough to transfer a bitstream hi-res audio via HDMI when here can be no jitter/need for reclockers/etc.?
Steve, what means "HDMI is not hi-res"? HDMI 1.3 by its spec is a Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream compatible if devices support it. And even if we suggest that HDMI doesn't pass a bitstream hi-res signal, but using it instead of ATV's AirPlay with 16/44.1(-->48) is a huuuge difference, even for my non-perfect ears. And the signal is already PCM/88.2 on AV.
HDMI protocol was created for movies, not playback of digital audio formats. DTS is great for movies, but even DTS is nothing compared to 24/192 or 512DSD as an audio format. The other problem with HDMI is that lack of good DAC's and reclockers to reduce jitter. The best you can do to reduce jitter is the iFi SPDIF iPurifier which passes Dolby Digital/DTS. I use these in my Home Theater, but not good enough for my audio system.
If your HDMI sounds better than your audio system, you need to upgrade your audio system IMO.
Since adding the Benchmark Dac, I really enjoy the added detail but it seems to be a little brash in my system or at least to what I’m used to. Would the synchro mesh mellow it out a little? Or am I better off getting a more laid back dac? If so what are some good ones in the 1-2k used market?
If it's a Benchmark DAC3, then there is not much you can do. It is fairly jitter intolerant. It is what it is.
I would recommend to try either the Metrum DACs or the Border Patrol DAC with the Synchro-Mesh. These DAC's enable the benefits of the SM.
Why do you say FLAC will never sound as good as WAV? My understanding is FLAC is 100% lossless. If a device were to decompress the FLAC input and place into a memory buffer which then feeds a DAC, shouldn't FLAC sound as good?
FLAC and wav contain the same data, however every DAC I have tried with every playback app that I have tried shows that on-the-fly decoding of FLAC impacts SQ. The image and soundstage are affected. You need a good system to hear this, but it's there.
And regarding ethernet, it would seem the fix to all of this crap with sync/async would be to standardize on a protocol for audio that is similar to TCP/IP in that it features error correction built-in which feeds into a memory buffer (memory is cheap nowadays) which would then feed the DAC section. I have no idea why the audio community hasn't figured this out already.
Packetized data with Ethernet works well, however the signal integrity and rise-time still impacts SQ with Ethernet. Therefore, it is still important to have a fast driver in a Router or Switch and low-loss, high-bandwidth Ethernet cables. Adding an isolator also helps with the capacitive leakage across Ethernet transformers.
The bottom line is that there is no panacea. Every interface and protocol seems to have deficiencies. The deficiencies with Ethernet seem to be the easiest to overcome, but at a cost of course.
HDMI is not hi-res, but Toslink can be depending on the source. Not sure what you are saying here.
Steve, what means "HDMI is not hi-res"? HDMI 1.3 by its spec is a Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream compatible if devices support it. And even if we suggest that HDMI doesn't pass a bitstream hi-res signal, but using it instead of ATV's AirPlay with 16/44.1(-->48) is a huuuge difference, even for my non-perfect ears. And the signal is already PCM/88.2 on AV.
I'm also sorry if I speak incorrect details here, please correct me.
Since adding the Benchmark Dac, I really enjoy the added detail but it seems to be a little brash in my system or at least to what I’m used to. Would the synchro mesh mellow it out a little? Or am I better off getting a more laid back dac? If so what are some good ones in the 1-2k used market?
Why do you say FLAC will never sound as good as WAV? My understanding is FLAC is 100% lossless. If a device were to decompress the FLAC input and place into a memory buffer which then feeds a DAC, shouldn't FLAC sound as good?
And regarding ethernet, it would seem the fix to all of this crap with sync/async would be to standardize on a protocol for audio that is similar to TCP/IP in that it features error correction built-in which feeds into a memory buffer (memory is cheap nowadays) which would then feed the DAC section. I have no idea why the audio community hasn't figured this out already.
And the only way that I may try is a Synrcho-Mesh for low jitter, but nothing will make it as good as HDMI/optical, because the lower a bandwidth/upsampling still be presented.
HDMI is not hi-res, but Toslink can be depending on the source. Not sure what you are saying here.
A very nice thread, the only one with useful advices I could find nowadays.
So, basically, the total: there is no a cheap dual-wifi/equal to HDMi-audi-connection device that sounds the same as wired HDMI/optical and doesn't have an inner DAC. So if I wanna use an external DAC/AV connected either way to ATV, I can't find it on the market with a low price as just a streaming device (only AEX/ATV/Chromecast) just to transfer audio. And the only way that I may try is a Synrcho-Mesh for low jitter, but nothing will make it as good as HDMI/optical, because the lower a bandwidth/upsampling still be presented.
And just a rhetorical question: why just there is no such a device that provides a full bandwidth and not being a DAC > 200$? What's the point if it's a really needed thing for hi-fi/MQA with either a Tidal/CD/wav/flac. I started to dive in all that not a long time ago, but this is the main issue I stuck with and now siting with HDMI Mac-->DAC :-D
Depending on your DAC, the Synchro-Mesh could make a huge difference, running Toslink from the ATV and AE to the SM and then a good BNC coax from the SM to the DAC.
If $699 is too rich for you, then try the $150 iFi SPDIF iPurifier. Get it on Amazon. Not as good, but should be an improvement. You can get a pretty decent broadcast quality BNC cable and 75 ohm RCA adapters from Markertek.com
I have never used Tidal, so I can't comment on its SQ with an Apple TV. I wirelessly stream my lossless ripped CDs from my iMac or my wife's MacBook Pro to either an Apple TV or an Airport Express and use the optical out into a DAC. In my experience the SQ using the Apple TV or Airport Express is identical to the Node 2.
My son purchased a Node 2 a while back and he found no difference between it and his Apple TV using his external DAC. He let me try it before returning it and my results were the same as his. I have 4 systems, 2 with an Airport Express and 2 with an Apple TV. I tried the Node 2 with all four of my systems and heard no difference using my DACs. I tried the Node 2 with its internal DAC, but I preferred the SQ with my DACs.
Are there any streamers in which you have the option of plugging your iPhone or iPad (wired) into a usb plug and play? If so, might this sound better than streaming wirelessly?
No idea regarding DSD capabilities. I've never heard a single piece of music that was DSD encoded. I have a Job Integrated amp that can decode DSD128, but I do not have any DSD encoded music to give it a try.
Jeenam55 - You mentioned Auralic Aries, it supports dsd up to 256. Good option. G1 is the latest version which supports 512. Thumb's up :) either one is better than ATV. My KD-2000 supports 64/128. Is there another component you know of that can be used to downgrade dsd 256/512 to 128?
I would get the Node 2 used. If you decide you want to upgrade you'll pretty much make your money back when you sell it. The next step up price wise if the Auralic Aries, but it is limited to Apple devices for remote control and from what I've read it only sounds better than the Node 2/2i if you splurge for the better power supply which significantly increases the price to ~4x that of a used Node 2.
There are some streamer products in the $700-$800 range such as cocktail, marantz, Cambridge and others that offer additional functionality etc. Are these good options in terms of comparable sound quality as the node? Any in particular as you go up the price scale slightly?
AppleTV resampling to 48k makes highs sound tizzy. It doesn’t sound good. Do yourself a favor and get a decent streamer, like a Blusound Node 2/2i as others have suggested. If you’re going to use an external DAC and don’t need the enhanced wifi of the 2i, save a few bucks and get the Node 2. Node 2i DAC section sounds better than the older Node 2, and the wifi is faster.
I'm using ethernet connect my Node 2, and also using an external DAC so only need the streaming features. Don't need the enhanced wifi and don't plan on using the internal DAC so I went with the older Node 2 and saved $175.
Hello and thank you for all your feedback on this topic. :). In keeping it simple, does anyone has any recommendation on a simple cable that can be purchased to hook up the ATV4 via HDMI out to my Canary KD2000 Dac, preferably USB as it supports all music files, as well as DSD64 and 128.... If USB is not an option, AES/XLR or Coax works just as well. I think.... Thanks HP
@kahlenz Could you list the DACs you've had success with pairing with the Airport Express?
I've tried a couple different DACs (Marantz PM6005, Arcam irDAC) but had to move them after they would not maintain a 'lock' on the signal. The only one that's worked for me is the FiiO D3.
I have no experience with the DAC in the Oppo but I’ve found streaming Tidal through Chromecast Audio ($35) had better sound quality as compared to the AppleTV. My comparison was running both through a Schiit Modi Multibit ($250). I used the optical connection in both cases. I also tried the same comparison with my Bluesound Node2 from my other system and Node2 was better than the Chromecast Audio but not by an order of magnitude. However, the user interface and the access to options from the Node2 are significantly better and much more robust. You may want to try the optical port since HDMI connection to got audio content is less ideal than coax/optical.
This thread has been an interesting read. I currently have my Appletv hooked up via HDMI to my Oppo105D (to use its DAC) and it sounds like I could have a better quality experience if I used a different streamer?
Will I even notice the difference if it were a Blunode hooked up to the Oppo?
Personally it sounds pretty good to me but I'm curious as I do not have something to compare against.
Maybe someone should design a high quality AirPlay DAC....? Hmmmm....
What are some of you using, planning to use, to replace the AirPort Express? For those of you using AirPlay only and don’t want/need additional features.
Steve N: I agree with your assessment regarding my apparent inability to distinguish between "hearing jitter" and "not hearing jitter". If "less jitter" means more accurate spatial clues, then I may have quite a way to go with my room acoustics before I can appreciate lower jitter levels. I am also curious about going direct from DAC to amp.
It is also entirely possible I simply have not experienced "low jitter" playback. All of my experimenting with digital playback has involved either a Mac>optical out>DAC or an AEX/ATV>optical out>DAC.
Any suggestions for a cheap "low jitter" solution?
I'm playing back via Tidal and have been pleasantly surpised at the sound quality. I mainly listen to LPs, but wanted to have access to the extensive libraries available on TIDAL.
Equipment: Integrated Amp: Belles Aria Speakers: B&W 705 S2 Turntable: Clearaudio with Ortofon 2m Black
Streaming is FLAC files so far, so it will never be quite as good as wav files. The difference I hear with wav files is soundstage and high-frequency reflections off the venue. Whether you will hear this difference depends on your system.
I personally like owning my content rather than renting it, however it is nice to have access to a lot of new material.
If you stay with a transport and DAC, at least lower the jitter by adding a good reclocker in the coax cable, like the Synchro-Mesh. 8psec of measured jitter.
If you go with a streamer, it is critically important to get low jitter. The kind of imaging and soundstage you are wanting has everything to do with extremely low jitter.
Here is a renderer that gets you to ~10psec at all sample-rates from 44.1-192:
Steve N (and anyone else with streaming experience): Thanks for the info, Steve, I've been trying to decide whether to expand my CD collection (which can be very affordable right now), or begin streaming, where there is unlimited music available. The issue is that I like a large, room-filling, sound-stage, with good detail in the instruments/vocals, and so far, CDs and LPs are the only sources that have provided that for me. And from what you are saying; even with a leading streaming service, and a good playback software, it's still not going to be as good as my CDs. Would one of the new DSs help? The good ones are kinda pricey, tho.
I guess I don't have the gilded ears (or revealing enough system) to hear jitter. As much as I have obsessed over this, I have come to the conclusion if I cannot hear it (including long listening sessions), I won't worry about it.
There must be something else holding your system back if you don't hear the benefits of lower jitter. Active preamps are the usual culprit.
The uRendu is a good choice BTW, but I have gotten away from USB after designing 6 generations of it. Ethernet is easier to make stellar.
I have not been able to get streamed hi-res files to sound anywhere near as good as my CDs and LPs. I really wish that wasn't the case.
The streamer you use and the playback software is the usual culprit, but also FLAC encoding will never sound as good as .wav files, like the CD playback.
Does the Synchro-Mesh improve the optical out of most TVs, especially Sony?
If it's PCM, the answer is yes. If it's Dolby Pro-logic or Dolby Digital, you need the iFi SPDIF iPurifier.
Does the Synchro-Mesh improve the optical out of the Apple AirPort Express (sadly becoming legacy)?
Absolutely. You would go optical into the SM and coax out to the DAC.
Do you know of a high quality AirPlay streamer (source only) that can take the place of, or improve upon, the AirPort Express?
To get a higher quality streamer, you will need to change to DLNA/UPnP renderer like the Empirical Audio Interchange or the Sonos Connect with Synchro-Mesh.
The Interchange will play up to 24/192
The Sonos Connect will play only 44.1
Interchange will deliver 10-12 psec of jitter at all supported sample-rates from these outputs: S/PDIF coax, AES/EBU, I2S SE, differential I2S on HDMI connector.
puffbojie: I have not been able to get streamed hi-res files to sound anywhere near as good as my CDs and LPs. I really wish that wasn't the case. I have a great MF dac, and a good asynchronous MF V-link to get the files to the dac from my computer. But the hi-res sounds flat and very little sound-stage. Whereas the CDs sound almost as good as my vinyl. Different, but almost as good. Very large. accurate. sound-stage. Great vocals etc.
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