You could replace the ATV with another streamer, but it will have high jitter just like the ATV. Jitter is the thing that you must reduce, the thing that most digital audio suffers from. The Synchro-Mesh will reduce jitter to 8 psec and you can have 44.1, 48 or 96 for output, your choice. Most DAC’s sound best with 96. Here are some jitter measurements, before and after the Synchro-Mesh: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154310.0 https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0 There are no streamers that will deliver 8psec of jitter at the end of a coax cable. The only way to get there is the Synchro-Mesh. Cheaper than buying another streamer. If anything, get a Sonos Connect and reclock it with a Synchro-Mesh. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I guess I don't have the gilded ears (or revealing enough system) to hear jitter. As much as I have obsessed over this, I have come to the conclusion if I cannot hear it (including long listening sessions), I won't worry about it.
There must be something else holding your system back if you don't hear the benefits of lower jitter. Active preamps are the usual culprit. The uRendu is a good choice BTW, but I have gotten away from USB after designing 6 generations of it. Ethernet is easier to make stellar. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Steve from Empirical:
Does the Synchro-Mesh improve the optical out of most TVs, especially Sony?
If it's PCM, the answer is yes. If it's Dolby Pro-logic or Dolby Digital, you need the iFi SPDIF iPurifier.
Does the Synchro-Mesh improve the optical out of the Apple AirPort Express (sadly becoming legacy)?
Absolutely. You would go optical into the SM and coax out to the DAC. Do you know of a high quality AirPlay streamer (source only) that can take the place of, or improve upon, the AirPort Express? To get a higher quality streamer, you will need to change to DLNA/UPnP renderer like the Empirical Audio Interchange or the Sonos Connect with Synchro-Mesh. The Interchange will play up to 24/192 The Sonos Connect will play only 44.1 Interchange will deliver 10-12 psec of jitter at all supported sample-rates from these outputs: S/PDIF coax, AES/EBU, I2S SE, differential I2S on HDMI connector. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156409.0 Steve N. Empirical Audio |
I have not been able to get streamed hi-res files to sound anywhere near as good as my CDs and LPs. I really wish that wasn't the case. The streamer you use and the playback software is the usual culprit, but also FLAC encoding will never sound as good as .wav files, like the CD playback. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Streaming is FLAC files so far, so it will never be quite as good as wav files. The difference I hear with wav files is soundstage and high-frequency reflections off the venue. Whether you will hear this difference depends on your system. I personally like owning my content rather than renting it, however it is nice to have access to a lot of new material. If you stay with a transport and DAC, at least lower the jitter by adding a good reclocker in the coax cable, like the Synchro-Mesh. 8psec of measured jitter. If you go with a streamer, it is critically important to get low jitter. The kind of imaging and soundstage you are wanting has everything to do with extremely low jitter. Here is a renderer that gets you to ~10psec at all sample-rates from 44.1-192: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=156409.0 See the plots at the end of the posts. If you find one that achieves lower than this at the end of a 4 foot coax cable, I'd like to know about it. thanks, Steve N. Empirical Audio |
"Any suggestions for a cheap "low jitter" solution?" You could try the iFi SPDIF iPurifier for $150 on Amazon. Not as good as the Synchro-Mesh reclocker, but you can always return it for refund. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Steve from Empirical:
Does the Synchro-Mesh improve the optical out of most TVs, especially Sony?
Yes, customers of mine are using the Synchro-Mesh to reduce jitter from all different smart TV's as well as AppleTV. Does the Synchro-Mesh improve the optical out of the Apple AirPort Express (sadly becoming legacy)?
Absolutely.
Do you know of a high quality AirPlay streamer (source only) that can take the place of, or improve upon, the AirPort Express?
I'm not aware, although there must be others. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Depending on your DAC, the Synchro-Mesh could make a huge difference, running Toslink from the ATV and AE to the SM and then a good BNC coax from the SM to the DAC. If $699 is too rich for you, then try the $150 iFi SPDIF iPurifier. Get it on Amazon. Not as good, but should be an improvement. You can get a pretty decent broadcast quality BNC cable and 75 ohm RCA adapters from Markertek.com Steve N. Empirical Audio |
And the only way that I may try is a Synrcho-Mesh for low jitter, but nothing will make it as good as HDMI/optical, because the lower a bandwidth/upsampling still be presented. HDMI is not hi-res, but Toslink can be depending on the source. Not sure what you are saying here. Steve N. Empirical Audio
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Since adding the Benchmark Dac, I really enjoy the added detail but it seems to be a little brash in my system or at least to what I’m used to. Would the synchro mesh mellow it out a little? Or am I better off getting a more laid back dac? If so what are some good ones in the 1-2k used market? If it's a Benchmark DAC3, then there is not much you can do. It is fairly jitter intolerant. It is what it is. I would recommend to try either the Metrum DACs or the Border Patrol DAC with the Synchro-Mesh. These DAC's enable the benefits of the SM. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Steve, what means "HDMI is not hi-res"? HDMI 1.3 by its spec is a Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD Master Audio bitstream compatible if devices support it. And even if we suggest that HDMI doesn't pass a bitstream hi-res signal, but using it instead of ATV's AirPlay with 16/44.1(-->48) is a huuuge difference, even for my non-perfect ears. And the signal is already PCM/88.2 on AV. HDMI protocol was created for movies, not playback of digital audio formats. DTS is great for movies, but even DTS is nothing compared to 24/192 or 512DSD as an audio format. The other problem with HDMI is that lack of good DAC's and reclockers to reduce jitter. The best you can do to reduce jitter is the iFi SPDIF iPurifier which passes Dolby Digital/DTS. I use these in my Home Theater, but not good enough for my audio system. If your HDMI sounds better than your audio system, you need to upgrade your audio system IMO. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Why do you say FLAC will never sound as good as WAV? My understanding is FLAC is 100% lossless. If a device were to decompress the FLAC input and place into a memory buffer which then feeds a DAC, shouldn't FLAC sound as good? FLAC and wav contain the same data, however every DAC I have tried with every playback app that I have tried shows that on-the-fly decoding of FLAC impacts SQ. The image and soundstage are affected. You need a good system to hear this, but it's there. And regarding ethernet, it would seem the fix to all of this crap with sync/async would be to standardize on a protocol for audio that is similar to TCP/IP in that it features error correction built-in which feeds into a memory buffer (memory is cheap nowadays) which would then feed the DAC section. I have no idea why the audio community hasn't figured this out already. Packetized data with Ethernet works well, however the signal integrity and rise-time still impacts SQ with Ethernet. Therefore, it is still important to have a fast driver in a Router or Switch and low-loss, high-bandwidth Ethernet cables. Adding an isolator also helps with the capacitive leakage across Ethernet transformers. The bottom line is that there is no panacea. Every interface and protocol seems to have deficiencies. The deficiencies with Ethernet seem to be the easiest to overcome, but at a cost of course. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Steve: Do you have any experience with the Auralic Vega Dac? Are these more laid back than benchmark and would they benefit from the Synchro-Mesh? No clue. it has 30-day money-back, less shipping. Steve N. |
Steve, thx for your response. Just making it clear. If HDMI supports bitstream, that means it transfers a digital signal bit-by-bit, so there can be no jitter lugs whatsoever.
Not true. Jitter is ALWAYS a factor to minimize. Never zero. Any company that claims zero is dreaming.
But if it’s a properly made HDMI cable then it doesn’t affect a digital data is transfers. Sure it does. The better the HDMI cable, the more clear and focused the picture will be. why 18Gbps (2.0) is not enough to transfer a bitstream hi-res audio via HDMI when here can be no jitter/need for reclockers/etc.? This is not just bandwidth, although that is important. The dielectric absorption and reflections from the fast-rising digital signal impinging on the discontinuities in the conductor crystal-lattice all cause the signal to have poor "integrity". What is important is the risetime of the signal, not the frequency of the signal. It requires a really good HDMI cable, Ethernet cable, S/PDIF cable or USB cable to maintain these risetimes and not create reflections that impact sound quality. This is why I only use pure silver digital cables from Wireworld or Empirical Audio. It’s the difference between music and live music. As for reclockers, these make an even bigger difference for both Home Theater Dolby Digital and for PCM audio tracks. You don't know what you are missing until you try one of these. For $150 for the iFi SPDIF iPurifier, what do you have to lose? Just return it to Amazon if it doesn't work for you. This will give you a small taste of what a reclocker can do. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
