Indeed Jadem, good luck with your impending operation. You are right, that not everyone is salt sensitive. However on a population basis, I am not so sure. A study on Amazonian Indians some years ago, found there BP's were about 90/70 and they did'nt fall over when they stood up. The suggested reason is very low salt intake, high rainfall in the Amazon basin washes all the salt out of the soil.
Incidentally, if you look at salt intake, consider Bread. It is packed with salt, why? It lasts 6 days on the shelf, not 2, simple economics for the supermarkets. |
Hi Jadem,
Hope your feeling a little better and our family wish you the best!
Kind Regards,
Bob |
Only about half of us are sodium sensitive to the point it has much bearing on blood pressure from what I've read. If you're among that half, it's a total pain to try and keep your sodium intake as low as it should be if you eat anything out of a package or from a restaurant. I know it does influence my bp to a degree, as does too much meat and alcohol. Modern western lifestyles are a huge contributor to the epidemic of high blood pressure. |
David 12 has the idea. SODIUM!!!! We Americans have way too much sodium in our diets. A general rule of thumb shopping is stay on the outside of the store, and stay away from the center aisle. Fresh fruit, produce, meats in moderation, dairy in moderation, frozen (not processed) are all on the outside of the store.
Highly processed foods, soups, canned (and preserved) foods, instant dinners (highly preserved) chips and snack food... all reside in the inner aisle.
Of course this is over simplified, and healthy food takes longer to make than pour, heat and eat, but sodium has the largest influence on blood pressure. Sodium is also very high in fast food and restaurant food. If you have a restaurant you frequent, ask the chef to hold the sodium and sodium intense additives. Do not eat fast food!
BTW, I am or have been on virtually all the meds discussed above. I am awaiting a heart transplant and my blood pressure is 68-72/42-45. Believe me I understand the feeling. |
And who's to say the so called "side-effects" aren't the primary effect while the advertised "primary effect" isn't just a side effect?
Because no one would buy a pill whose main effect is stomach lining destruction with a side effect of reduced inflammation. It's all in the marketing. |
Hi David12..I am a US pharmacist and I agree with your treatment protocol completely. It is very perplexing to me the pervasive use of ARB's. It seems like we love to make things more complex and expensive than we have to. With the graying population we see over here, I see a lot of overly complex treatment regimens in this group. These people are so over medicated, it is really pathetic. We really do need to get back to basics and practice evidence base medicine as you have suggested. Sometimes less is more. We in this country think medication is the answer to all of our ills. |
Just come across this thread, I am a family doctor working in the UK National Health Service and with an interest in hypertension. My word, by international standards, you guys are overtreated. Treat people with a systolic over 135? not in the rest of the world. There is no absolute criteria, that varies with age and general health. At my age 60, slim, fit with no concurrent illnesses, I started treatment at 150/95, with a target of 135/85. Clinical trial evidence for treating lower than this is limited and side effects, particularly postural dizziness, start to rise exponentially.
I would agree that non drug treatments are first choice, more exercise, a natural diet with reduced salt in particular and weight loss are vital. In my 30 years experience, 7 to 10lbs weight loss will make a real difference to blood pressure.
Current accepted guidelines for treatment under 60 are diuretics such as HCT and ACE inhibitors like lisinopril, which I am on. Sorry guys, but ARB's, angiotensin reuptake blockers are not better, they avoid the dry cough suffered by 5 to 20% of ACE users, depending on the brand. That is the reason to use them. ACE inhibitors have been around longer and evidence for protecting end organs, particularly the kidneys, in diabetics, is stronger.
Over 60 I tend to use diuretics + calcium channel blockers like amlodipine, both are better at reducing systolic blood pressure which tends to be a problem in the older patient. Almost nowone uses Beta blockers first line, because of side effects and recent evidence that they fail to stop cardiovascular endpoints, a euphemism for strokes and heart attacks.
The National Health service may be Socialist medicine, but it is evidence based, protocol driven and audited. All English family doctors are computerised and anonymous data for how I treat patients is downloaded and I have to be able to justify it.
Sorry for the lecture, which I am sure you audiogon MDs will not agree with. |
The comment by Cdc holds a lot of truth. When I first began practice in the early 70's, most health care was paid for just like your groceries. Consequently, market forces played the primary role in controlling the cost of the services just as it does in the price of groceries or any other competitive product. We took the first step toward a socialized system when third party payers started to appear in the delivery system. This divorced the cost of the service from the consumer. He no longer felt the true cost of the service anymore. With this development, over utilization has ,over the last 30 years, almost swamped our system. If we move to a total socialized system, the over utilization will force rationing which will affect those that need extremely expensive procedures and treatments. This has already started with the advent of HMO's but will accelerate exponentially as government becomes more dominant in the delivery system. This has the potential to create an Orwellian health care system which delivers care based on the perceived value of the recipient, ie, age,social status, etc. Sound crazy, just take a look at Washington right now. |
From the January 6, 2000 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine (which is hardly a friend of the pharmaceutical industry): "The overall unadjusted relative risk of death due to coronary artery disease was 1.17 (95% confidence interval, 1.14 to 1.20) per 10 mmHg increase in systolic pressure and 1.13 (95 percent confidence interval, 1.10 to 1.15) per 5 mmHg increase in diastolic pressure." This increase in mortality began with a systolic blood pressure of 125 mmHg and a diastolic blood pressure of 75 mmHg. |
I have a question for Larryx7, In country as India and I believe also in most countries in Europe, as long as your blood pressure is under 140/90, you are considered healthy. What's up with the 120/80 in the US ? Sounds like pharmarceutical companies along with the AMA and FDA have found the scared- crow-hot spot to push meds for huge profit. |
Along with my meds that drag me down I have started taking naproxen, also known as aleve. This pretty much cures the drag me down effect for me. |
If you want REAL health care and have more than the run of the mill muscle pull, you will have to start paying the doc directly - out of pocket. The good ones don't take insurance. They don't have to as they have enough referrals to stay in business.
Free health care? You get what you pay for. Better get ready to start paying it yourself if you are serious about getting well. |
Kltaki8.....I have been at this business since 1971 and have seen how the healthcare business has changed. We are basically a reactionary system. We in most cases react to sickness rather than being proactive before the fact. This is why we have basically bankrupted the healthcare system. We have nobody to blame but ourselves. Much like the financial system, it all comes right back down to the individiul. The system is a product of the individual. We can blame the banks, the insurance companies, the drug companies, George Bush, etc. but the real culprit is a lack of concern and stewardsip by each individual. We are gradually falling into a quasi-socialism that dummies down the responsibility of the individual. This has the potential of producing a lower middle class that while being in a majority will abdicate their citizenship do to the malaise and indifference a socialistic society produces.
If you think the banking and financial system is a big bite for the government, wait until they try to swallow the healthcare sytem |
Larry,
Tell us more about how we consume more drugs than other countries please. I'm a big believer that most doctors would rather give a drug to deal with symptoms than deal with the cause and eliminate the problem. That's how we deal with problems in the business world but we seem to have a different logic about health and doctors.
Many people believed the bankers knew what they were doing until last November!!! Wait till the world finds out about the health care mess. |
As a pharmacist, I have really gotten a kick out of this thread. When you start talking healthcare, everybody has an opinion. Some of the anectdotal post here a hoot. What I do know about hypertension is that gone untreated over time, it will most assuredly shorten your healthy years if not your total years period. The single greated cause of hypertension is bad diets and obesity period. Get these undercontrol and 75 percent of the battle is won. This includes not only bp but high colesterol and includes type 2 diabetes. But we Americans love to take medicine. Do you realize if we took medicines at the rate most of world takes them , the drug companies would fold or at least be far less profitable than they are now. |
Well, my local health shop guy recomended Hawthorn Berry and a supplement from Twinlabs called 'blood pressure sucess' which is some sort of milk casin, that relaxes blood vessels. Also started taking fish oil.
Been two months and my pressure has been 125/79, this seems to be working for me and preferable to the medications available, with all their side effects. |
I just started back on Cozaar. |
I began taking Benicar (this is my 6th day) after ending up in ER with a BP of 209/108. So far no side effects that I am aware of. Yesterday my BP was 137/74 so it seems to be doing its intended purpose very well.
I hope you get your meds straightened out. Adverse side effects were of a major concern I expressed to my doctor and he felt Benicar would be a good med for me. So far, so good. |
Yep! Exercise, eliminate salt intake, lower carb intake, stop eating read meat, oat meal for breakfast, fish oil, garlic tablets, green tea, water, water, water.. oh yes and sleep, lots of sleep.. which you can't help but do because most of this stuff wears you out.
If I missed anything let me know. Some of the meds effect short term memory. |
Have you done all of the many things one may do besides taking meds? |
Gentlemen, I think that I have tried every blood pressure med known to man. Lisinopril was working the best with the smallest side effect.. Recently, my doc put me on Benicar HCT... I have NO side effects and my energy levels have returned to normal. Just a thought you may want to consider. Without meds, my blood pressure is 180/120 without medication, with the new med is it 135/90. I now am excersing regularly and feeling good. Thanks to all who were so kind with the posts. |
Andrewdoan,I am on Lisinopril and Simvastatin.Same thing happened to me for first week or so.I felt absolutely drained of energy.My Doc said start taking the pills before bed instead of the a.m. Also, someone said I needed a vitamin 'd' supplement.I started on both those actions,and,like a charm ,(or perhaps a placebo,idunno)I started feeling 'normal' in a couple of days.Just my story FWIW.....Cheers. |
Cure # 8: Water prevents and cures high blood pressure. Water prevents and cures high blood pressure.Hypertension is a state of adaptation of the body to a generalized drought, when there is not enough water to fill all the blood vessels that diffuse water into vital cells. As part of the mechanism of reverse osmosis, when water from the blood serum is filtered and injected into important cells through minute holes in their membranes, extra pressure is needed for the "injection process." Just as we inject I.V. "water" in hospitals, so the body injects water into tens of trillions of cells all at the same time. Water and some salt intake will bring blood pressure back to normal! Tragedy: Not recognizing hypertension as one of the major indicators of dehydration in the human body, and treating it with diuretics that further dehydrate the body will, in time, cause blockage by cholesterol of the heart arteries and the arteries that go to the brain. It will cause heart attacks and small or massive strokes that paralyze. It will eventually cause kidney disease. It will cause brain damage and neurological disorders, such as Alzheimer's disease. |
|
|
Just one bit I simply have to put in. I cringe when I see medical advice asked for and given here. This is always the place I come to for sound advice, but please go see your doctor for medical stuff! It sounds to me like you are getting unacceptable side-effects and there are plenty of options to treat hypertension. Call you doc and have him/her change your meds - if a patient can no longer enjoy their favorite hobby due to meds, that is not a good regimen to me. |
same as Mr. Porter...Lisinopryl & HCTZ for 10 years now. My doc originally prescribed Diovan which was expensive & my pharmacist buddy suggested Lisinopryl which has worked fine. Ditto on the beta blockers, they were a bad trip. good luck with your condition. gotta love age related "adjustments" |
One thing for sure, the effects of long term untreated high blood pressure can kill you so this is a serious discussion.
Happy Thanksgiving to all! |
>> I hear once you start taking blood pressure meds, you're on them for life,
That is not true. I spent close to 10 years on them. About two years ago they cut the dose in half and about six months ago I was taken off them completely. I had no problem with the adjustment. Again, it is something where you just need to work closely with your doctor.
A lot just depends on how much work one is willing to do. A better diet can help with blood pressure issues, as can weight loss, exercise. eliminating or reducing alcohol and learning to deal with stress. All of those things can help but many people are unwilling to take those steps to the extent necessary. |
Thanks to all the posters here. My pressure is starting to inch up (140/80) and the side effects of these meds give me pause. Starting taking Fish Oil, potassium/magnesium supplements and will report back.
I hear once you start taking blood pressure meds, you're on them for life, your body adjusts to having them present. Not for me if I can help it naturally. |
If you need HBP Meds I believe THERE IS A KEY : SMALL DOSES FROM SEVERAL CATEGORIES . More expensive yes , but fewer side effects . I take Zestoretic ( combo ace inhibitor and diuretic ) , Norvasc ( calcium channel blocker ) , and Monocor ( Beta Blocker ) . I take small doses of each . When I used to take fewer pills and start increasing the doses , I had problems I don't have now . |
Andrewdoan---my pleasure --just keep me informed --rich |
Rich- too good to be true :) Got no problems with that guy ED, but it's good to know Cozaar may help keep him away. |
Rich m.d, it's a pleasure to know you. Thank you for your advice. This is really a wonderful forum not only to buy or sell hi-end gear but to meet some nice people who are willing to share and help another fellow-man. |
Danlib1--just to let you know there is data suggesting that ARB's may improve ED |
The music as I listen lowers my blood pressure. |
There are a whole slew of BP meds and different ways to take them - for example taking meds at night rather than in the morning will change the time of their peak effect. Because we are individuals, the approach must also be individualized - especially for those of us who are more sensitive. The key is to find the right drug/combination/dosing that works best for you. It is not "rocket science," but it does take trial and error. And your physician should be willing to work with you to get it right.
As far as non-Rx approaches, the three most important are weight loss and exercise and salt control.
However, BP control is critical. Even mild elevations (what is now called pre-hypertension) have been associated with increased mortality and should not be ignored. |
I had a heart attack about one and a half year ago, totally unexpected. Fortunately I'm young (well.. 38 at the time) and in good health. It was a very light attack, no damage done. Since then I'm on meds as you can imagine. Beta-blockers, blood-pressure, cholesterol... you name it, I've got'm. It took some time to get used to it, and especially the first weeks I was very tired, but by doing my exercises I'm now able to lead a very normal live.
So keep on, try (very gentle) to do some exercise every day and expand your physical limits. You'll be hauling around your system in no time! |
From Tweak1.....
"Someone should write a book "Programming Doctors" by Big Pharma.
There are lots of natural remedies, like eating bananas, eliminating caffiene.. to resolve HBP. Google it and stop believing most doctors know what they're doing. A few do, and they promote natural remedies"
Wow Tom Cruise hangs out at Audiogon?....sweet |
Thats what I was taking was Cozaar. |
Larryrs7, my BP was always in the 140/88 in the PM and 135/82 in the AM. DR. told me any reading above 135 will need meds. My biggest frustration is INSOMNIA when I was on the meds ( Benicar and now Enalapril). Off the meds, my BP get worse 152/92-95 in the PM. I could no longer deal with customer w/o the meds and as a consequence is so many sleepless nights. |
Listen to Albert.
I have a pervasive family history of that groovy death combo- hypertension and diabetes. I started taking blood pressure meds when I was 28. The worst was beta blockers. I was depressed and my dick was broken- both courtesy of beta blockers. ACE inhibitors were better, but then I read about the angiotensin II receptor antagonist Cozaar and called my doctor. Bam!
Been on Cozaar since it was introduced. Works great, no fatigue, and for some reason still being investigated helps suppress Type 2 Diabetes if you're susceptible to that nasty beast.
Talk to your doctor. If he/she won't listen, fire 'em and move on to someone who will. |
I've been monitoring and dealing with a tendency to hypertension for many years. For the last eight, I've been using TCM (traditional chinese medicine) with generally successful results. Prior to using TCM, my pressures were high all the time, now they generally stay within the healthy range. My pressure tends to be more unstable than consistently high, so I have to monitor it constantly to keep an idea of the real pattern. The biggest downside to using acupuncture and herbal therapy is the cost, insurance won't pay a red cent. My primary care physician was convinced it was uncontrolled and had me wear a 24 hour monitor. This convinced him I really was having "white coat fever." Of course, the question is how often is the b.p. of reactive patients is elevated because of stress. Because of the side effects and quality of life issues, my primary care m.d. is very reluctant to start patients on b.p. medicine unless he is convinced the average b.p. values are above 135/85 in someone without other symptoms like elevated lipids, being overweight, etc. Note: on average! This is why it's important for one to be responsible for self monitoring IMO. Readings in the doctors office may not be indicative of your total situation. |
Hi Andrew..I was wondering how many days you monitored your bp before the medication was prescribed? |
I'm on Lotrel 2x daily (plus Clonidine at night to help with sleep). I also stepped up my exercise to daily (sometimes twice, before breakfast/before dinner) and increased my garlic intake. My HBP is under control now. Best of luck and stay healthy. |
Andrewdoan--the benicar you were taking is an ARB ---angiotensin receptor blocker--they have the lowest side effect profile of any of the bp meds--you may want to try another in the same class at the lowest dose and then work up from there--you are now taking an older ace inhibitor--most of the problems with this class is a cough which can develop at any time and is related to an increase in bradykinin---as you can see from the many responses--lots have had side effects ---I would encourage you to try to work with you doc to find the lowest dose that works with the least side effects---also look up the DASH diet ---rich in fruits ,veg and low salt--don't have time to write a primer on treating and preventing vasc disease but untreated bp is a major problem in this as well as other countries--every 20 mmHg (20) pts above 115systolic and every 10pts above 80diastolic doubles your risk--feel free to email me --Rich |
Hi Andrew-
In my early fiftys, I was diagnosed with hypertension. My doctor scheduled a treadmill stress test, which I could not complete, because my blood pressure got dangerously high. I was put on cholesterol medication and a beta blocker. This motivated me to change my diet (mainly vegetarian with very low levels of caffeine), and I started exercising. After about three years, I was able to reduce my medications. So my doctor scheduled another treadmill test. This time I did so well, I was taken completely off my meds.
One thing that helped me was I got a home blood pressure monitor. I was motivated to stick with the diet and exercise program by seeing whether I was sliding back, maintaining or making progressing towards better blood pressure levels. Last week I went to see the doctor, because I bought a new BP monitor (Panasonic EW3152) and I wanted to check its accuracy. My BP was 127/70 on my monitor and 122/70 on the equipment in the medical offfice.
Ive been off meds for about six years, and Im about forty pounds lighter than went I was first diagnosed with hypertension. For me, exercise and diet allowed me to first reduce my meds and then get off them completely.
Good luck! -Don |
I've tried a lot of prescription meds to control my high blood pressure. It's a bit higher than yours is.
I was on lisinopril and it gave me a cough and was not very effective. I tried Exforge, Bystolic, Benicar, Tekturna, and Diltiazem. All of those made me lethargic and drained the life force right out of me. Benicar is not too bad, but it still makes me fatigued and makes my feet hurt sometimes.
Diltiazem (over the course of a year and a half), which is the worst side-effect class of hypertensive med, a calcium channel blocker, gave me a wide range of side effects. I had fatigue, dry skin, sensitivity to sunlight, dry mouth, frequent urination, and insomnia.
On Diltiazem I was convinced I had Diabetes but tested negative and then, one day I took a short bike ride... I only rode 3 or 4 miles and came back extremely fatigued from only a moderate effort. I guess Diltiazem also constricted my pulmonary function and max heart rate too.
To top it off I had a mild left-chest dismomfort or pressure. I thought I was having a mild heart attack, so I went to my local emergency room and they ran a bunch of tests on me concluding with an angiogram (I was convinced that at the very least my arteries must have been clogged).
But no, there was no heart disease and no clogged arteries. Mind you, I'm supposed to pay nearly $3,000 for this one night stay they originally billed as $21,000 (Healthnet paid 80 percent of the 14 grand they contracted for).
I had informed my doctor all along about my various symptoms and the chronic dibilitating fatigue and he said something like, "What's a little fatigue?" He never once hinted or suggested that my symptoms could be related to Diltiazem.
But after my Angiogram, I looked up the various side effects on the web and had almost every one on the long list. I weened myself off that "wonder drug," because stopping it abruptly was ill-advised. Then whadayaknow, over the next month or so all my various side effects have faded, even my chronic sinus congestion, which I forgot to mention.
I've tried an ACE inhibitor since then which brought back some fatigue, so I stopped it. Currently I'm taking Benicar off and on (depending on how bad it makes me feel and how high my pressure is). All the BP meds that were most effective in lowering my pressure have had the worst side effects. I've modified my diet and I'm trying to bike ride and walk regularly.
My goal is to lose about 20 pounds and then be free of the drugs once and for all. Curiously, all the statin-based products for reducing cholesterol also make me fatigued and give me muscle pain, so I can't take those either. My wife, on the other hand has been on Caduet (a Lipitor and Norvasc combo pill) for over a year. She hasn't had any bad side effects yet... I've been on Lipitor and Norvasc at different times and don't tolerate either one very well. |
Thank you for posting this. I have been feeling like crap for a year, about as long as I have been on blood pressure, thyroid,prostate, and cholesterol medication. Now I know its just not me and I have some things to look into. Hope you feel better soon. Tom G |
I've been a Type 1 diabetic since I was three. When I turned thirty-five, I was prescribed a low dose of Lisinopril (a cheap and effective medication) for kidney protection. I was on it for ten years then changed to Avepro because of the persistent cough Lisinopril will cause over long use. I run 5 miles a night--not a fun task while coughing.
Slightly more expensive, Avepro's side effects are nil. I breathe deeply with no wheeze. I've also found that I'm less likely than before to catch whatever colds my young children bring home from school. However, I had to ask my doctor to change the prescription, which is what I would suggest you do. That, or have him/her adjust your present dosage. Repeat: they won't do either unless you ask. Your blood pressure doesn't seem dangerously high; you shouldn't feel the way you do. Good luck. |
