Another new DAC: Audio Mirror

@cal3713 - I am sending you a PM, so we can keep this thread on topic. 

@vassils.  Thanks for the information!

I can safely after a month the maxed out / SE version of the Tubadour iii is just wonderful. For a while I kinda wanted my old dac back. Break-in was tough! The mods offer a more layered and beautiful resolution, greater impact, smoother, and lower noise floor. If you are looking for a DAC in the $1500 price point it is certainly worth putting high on the consideration set. If you can up the budget for the SE, you are rewarded with a better sounding version of the same DAC. As I type I am listening to thom yorke the eraser and I’ve never heard it sound so fresh....

For people who are on the fence about buying a dac that uses an old chip when there are new dac's with better measurables to be had...

I got a demo of a Matrix X-Sabre Pro and the Audio Mirror TIII-SE is just so much better. 

The "modern" Matrix sounds good and is very clean, but lacks emotion and front-to-back layering.  Just so much less dimensional and engaging.  If you go to Audio Science Review, you'll see that the Matrix is the best measuring dac they've ever tested.  I will note that I only listen to standard 44.1k redbook, so that may be one limitation of my comparison.

Hey everybody,

Vlad will be sending me the SE version of this DAC shortly for a review for the website Stereo Times.  It will be very interesting to compare this DAC to the Mhdlab Orchid and Lab 12 which also use NOS DAC chips and tube based analog conversation sections, that I have reviewed in the past and currently use in my systems.

Looking forward to hearing this DAC that has brought great pleasure at a reasonable cost to many of the listeners on this thread.

Well, I received my Tubadour yesterday and have put about 7 hours on it. I am very pleased with the sound and understand it will only get better. I use it with a Cambridge CXC transport. It replaced a Bryston BDA-1, which I felt is a very good DAC also. 

I will get back after my unit has broken in.

Looking forward to your unbiased review Terry @teajay ! Knowing how sweet your Orchid sounded when I heard it at your place, and knowing how awesome my Tubadour III sounds, it will be an interesting read!

Orchid vs Troubadour will be a great comparison! Can’t wait. 

Vlad just informed he shipped out the DAC for review today.  I'll have some cursory/tentative information to share with all of you, hopefully by the end of next week.  I'm looking forward to this experience to my able to give feedback and write the review for Stereo Times in the near future.  

Definitely looking forward to the comparison.The Orchid was on my short list before I decided to buy the Tubadour.
@mesch looking forward to your thoughts as your unit breaks in.What cable do you have between the CXC and Tubadour?

jtcf, Right now I am using a Audioquest VDM-5 coax cable. Once I sort out the other changes I wish to make in my system I may consider a change in cabling. I am happy with the DAC however have only about 30 hrs. on it. Will have an extended listening session today.  Like you, I would have considered the Orchid also however learning the Tubedour had a tube output stage vs. buffer swayed me to the Tuba. 

When/if you decide to audition different cables,take a look at Silnote.After trying quite a few that's the one that really stands out and works well with these two components.Instruments and vocals are distinct with no smearing even with complicated music.I won't blather on about all of the things it gets right,but it's definitely one to keep in mind.

I will check into the Silnote cable when the time comes. 

I drop shipped an Orchid Dac to Grannyring for his mods this week.

I got it for a back-up to my DHT Dac behind my CEC TL 3N transport.

The AD1865 and TDA1541 NOS are holding their own after all these years, esp. with a tube or two in the box.

The aforementioned Dacs in this thread are affordable and provide good "musical" results, without putting up a house mortgage or car note.

Hello Gentlemen,

Well, I have spent around 30 hours listening to the SE Tubadour in the last three days.  Even not fully burn-in, it's a sonic "gem" across the board.

Here's the answers to some of the questions that have been asked on this thread or sent to me by readers of my reviews:

1) Is it on a higher level of performance then the Mhdlab Orchid DAC.
    
    Yes, it does everything with more finesse and performs on a higher qualitative then the Orchid DAC.  Do remember, its retail price is almost $1,500 more then the Mhdlab DAC, it "should" be better.  However, if you can afford it, with out a doubt it's worth the expense. Also, I cannot answer which is better, the basic Audio Mirror Tubadour or the Mhdlab Orchid because I have never heard the basic Tubadour Dac.  The Orchid is still a great DAC and very reasonably priced, I'm sure the basic Tubadour is very good too, but someone else will have to make the actual comparison who has both pieces.

2) Is the build quality and performance were it should be for this price range.

With out a doubt YES. This DAC competes with far more expensive Dacs, both in internal parts, and it's performance is superlative.  I'll get into all the sonic details when I write the review for Stereo Times.

3) Can you clearly hear differences by doing tube rolling in the SE version of this DAC.

Yes, I have already tried some very highly regarded NOS 6922's and 396's in the DAC.  The Tubadour is so transparent that each tube changes the overall flavor of it's presentation.  However, credit to Vlad, the 5977 tube set that he ships with is "spot on" and is my favorite for my tastes and system synergy.  Never had heard this tube before, these little suckers sound terrific in this DAC, I would like to try Vlad's 5977 tube set in some of my other pieces that use 6922's to see what would happen.

So, if you own the SE version of this DAC, congrats to you, you have a great piece, indeed.

 

@teajay Totally impressed by your objectivity and open minded approach to our hobby. This should shut up those in the far left field bleachers who always claim that reviewers are “on the take”. Your exposure to this dac happened spontaneously here on Audiogon, Vlad sent you a dac and you posted an honest opinion. Kudos to you and to Vlad.

@teajay thanks for the update.... but wait until it burns in properly. Then the magic happens. That typically takes about 2 weeks of non-stop running. 

I just sold my fully pimped up Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1 Signature and replaced it with this Audio Mirror SE. 

My Audio Note Kits had every possibly upgrade - Z-foil resistors, Duelund Caps, 5N silver wire, WBT connectors, Furutech NCF IEC, SR Blue fuse, the best tubes I could find, PSVANE WE274B replica rectifier, etc. 

I had both DACs running side by side for several months. Every time I listened to them my ears told me that the Audio Mirror is much better. Every time I looked at them, I was convinced that the Audio Note "must" sound better. It's so big and heavy, with all those transformers inside, big caps, sophisticated power supply, and so on. You look at the Audio Mirror next to it, and it looked like a little toy. My eyes were telling me that the Audio Note must be better. But my ears were telling me that the Audio Mirror sounds better. And it did sound better!

Well, I sold the Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1 Signature, kept the Audio Mirror and a bunch of cash, that I invested in a better source. I've listened to a lot of expensive sources, and whatever you put in front of the Audio Mirror DAC, it delivers. It scales with sources many times the price of the DAC. I have not heard it's limits yet. Put an Innous Statement or a PinkFaun streamer, and you would be amazed what it can do. 

Thanks for sharing your first impressions teajay!I've also found the Tubadour to be very responsive to tube and cable changes.Also @vassils appreciate you sharing your experience.It really helps those of us who don't have the opportunity to audition everything on our short lists before choosing.

Great update. A more fair comparison would be the AM SE to the Orchid upgraded with the mod package I have been performing. The upgraded Orchid performs at a much higher level across the board vs a stock unit. The difference is not small. The Orchid really responds nicely to well chosen internal upgrades.

The total cost of an upgraded Orchid is about $900 less than the AM SE. This would be an interesting comparison. Hope to listen to the AM SE soon.   

Appreciate the mini review teajay.
I actually like the idea of a stock versions battle. A price point easier on the wallet. I was impressed enough with my stock Tubadour to have Vlad update it at a later time, which was helpful. And turnaround was fast! The SE version is certainly better, but it does not change the sonic signature of the dac - the stock version is very good! Vlad is great to deal with and made right in the good ol USA

Hey gentlemen,

I have been receiving scores of Emails asking for more specific/precise details regarding the performance of the SE DAC. Guy's what I posted already is as far as I'm going to go, because I want to keep the details and nuances for my full length review that I'll write sometime at the end of next month.  This will also allow me to get over 200 hours on the DAC and see if it improves in the ways that other owners have stated takes it to even a higher level of sublime performance. We shall see!  I'm finding it hard to go about my business instead of listening to my system, because of the beauty and emotional connection with the music that the SE is creating in the context of rig. 

Grannyring’s right, wait for a modded Orchid for a fair comparison.

I understand there are some big fans of the Orchid DAC here, but let’s face it - the Audio Mirror DAC is in another league.

@teajay said it - "Yes, it does everything with more finesse and performs on a higher qualitative then the Orchid DAC."

I sold my maxed out Audio Note Kit DAC 5.1 Signature, because the Audio Mirror sounded better.

I also had a Denafrips Terminator in my system for almost a year. I would take the Audio Mirror SE DAC instead of the Terminator any day! With no hesitation at all. And I would not regret for a second.

You asked @teajay for comparison. He listened and spent the time to do it. And now it’s not fair?!? He has not even heard the full potential of the Audio Mirror DAC yet, because it’s not fully broken in yet. This Audio Mirror DAC is up there with $10K DACs, believe it or not. You just need to optimize the upstream components, and it would deliver.

I’m only getting this for a back-up to my DHT Dac, so I could care less about who’s in another league, todays flavor turns into next years forgotten.   I didn't ask teajay for a comparison, I can do that on my own.

@vassils

I get why you feel that way. However, we also know in audio many things make us scratch our heads. The upgraded Orchid is in another league, as you say, vs. stock so a comparison would be interesting and don’t count the Orchid out. I have owned and modified enough gear to know the upgraded Orchid is very special. It is also some $900 less than the maxed out AM SE.

No way to know for sure without direct comparison. My gut is they will be close and will offer different strengths. Subjective preference would determine the best one for a given person. Just a guess like your guess. Love to compare both directly to know.

I have at least heard The Orchid, upgraded Orchid and $1800 AM dac so my speculation is born out of a little direct experience/knowledge.

I agree with what @rx8man shared earlier. It is just a great time to buy a reasonably priced dac, wether upgraded or not, and experience such enjoyable sound. We have so many great choices!  Audio Mirror, MHDT, Lampizator Amber 3, Border Patrol and others.  Digital has never sounded so good for reasonable money.  

We need to keep our "own" ears open, and for the cost consideration involved with these pieces, they can be heard in our systems, swapped with friends, so on so forth.

Yes, I'm sure Teajay is a really nice guy, but, things are relative in the context of a given system and personal taste requirements.

The aforementioned Dacs in this thread are affordable and provide good "musical" results, without putting up a house mortgage or car note.

Which front end source/streamer would go well with this DAC?

I just want to know what $10K DACs you are comparing this to.  I have a hard time believing these statements until I know the product and the comparison results.  I am sure the DAC is very nice sounding, not sure what league means either.

Happy Listening.

The only ~$10K I have compared it with was the $9,375 Lampizator Atlantic. I prefer the Audio Mirror SE.

Also, look at my comment above about the Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1 Signature (over $6,500 after the upgrades), which I recently sold on USAudioMart.

I’ve had many other DACs in the $2-$5K range. They are all gone. I am having a hard time finding any other DAC that is so musical, engaging, and analog sounding up to a $10K price range. If I had a much bigger budget I would get the Cerat Kassandra II Ref. Until then, I am enjoying the Audio Mirror SE DAC.

Happy Listening.

@vassils


We each hear what we hear and finding what we like is what’s most important. Your money, your preference.

@vassils you must have heard a Lampizator Golden Atlantic not an Atlantic. Additionally, if you preferred the Audio Mirror to a Golden Atlantic(TRP), something was definitely not right with the system in which the Golden Atlantic was playing. I’m not calling you out, I promise but something wasn’t functioning correctly.

The Audio Mirror is a great dac and I’m on record here on Audiogon saying so, but I know of no alternative universe where it can hang with the Golden Atlantic.

It was the Atlantic, not the Golden Atlantic. 
I screwed up on the price. It's $5K, not $10K. I have not listened to the Golden Atlantic in my system, only at shows with horrible rooms, but that does not count. 

So it turns out I have not really compared the Audio Mirror SE with any $10K DACs. The most expensive DAC's I have compared with were $6K-$7K.

BTW, that also includes a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. I heard what their latest firmware upgrade, Windom, did compared to the previous version at my friend's house. He asked me to go and listen and tell him what I think. I felt like the difference was so big, that it sounded like a new DAC. I've had a PS Audio DirectStream DAC in the past, but it was not my cup of tea. After hearing the Windom, I saw that PS Audio had an amazing black friday promotion, and I bought one to try (again) at home. At this time I had the Audio Note Kits DAC 5.1 Signature and an Audio Mirror DAC. And I added the PS Audio. Let it run non-stop for three weeks, and did many hours of listening on the fourth week. Needless to say, but the PS Audio took a good use of their super generous return policy. I respect Paul McGowan a lot and watch his YouTube videos, but claiming that the DirectStream is one of the best DACs in the world... well there is a disagreement there, to say the least. I have their PowerPlant P20, and it's good, and I wanted to like their DAC, because it looks cool next to the P20... but I did not like it. Actually, I did not have the PS Audio DirectStream with Windom and the Denafrips Terminator in my system at the same time, but I am pretty sure I would prefer the Terminator between the two. These are all my own personal choices obviously. 

Again, my apologies for screwing up the Lampi models. But the rest, I've had. Most of them are in my USAudioMart profile (sold), and I have the receipts for the rests if anyone doubts my credibility after my Lampi error. 

The Audio Mirror is small and cheap (for its level of performance)... and it does not feel right to sound so good. But until I hear something better, that would be my reference DAC.
It also probably comes down to a personal preference. I have a much higher end analog rig that is hard to beat. And I might be too attached to a high end analog sound and definitely don't appreciate any sterile, lean, body-less, harsh digital "hi-fi" sound. I have been working on my digital front end for the past 3 years trying a lot of the modern sources out there like Sonore, Allo, Audiobyte, SOTM, Innuos, PinkFaun, etc. Things started to get much better after investing around $15K in my digital source (upstream from the DAC). That's still just slightly over the price of my phono cartridge only. But with an excellent source and some of those modernized analog devices AD1865NK DACs (like AudioNote and AudioMirror) I started to like my digital rig too. That's why I am looking at the Cerat Kassandra II Ref as the next (big) step up (especially in price). 

BTW, @ghasley you got me intrigued with your comment about the Golden Atlantic! It's in my price range, and if it is as good as you say, I may give it a try. I just hope it's lot better than the Atlantic I heard. And no, there was nothing wrong with that system. It was mine :). 

I am open to try more of the more expensive DACs in the future, and will to that, but until then, I have this little toy (but big sound machine) to play with.

@vassils

 thanks for the comparisons. I had a Schiit gungnir MB and recently had a short list of Orchid, AM, and Audio Note Kits.

I found a great deal on a used ANK 4.1LE built years ago with a lot of ANUK parts and filled with Black Gates. It beat my Gungnir as it’s more musical and enjoyable.

But now you have me wanting to try a AM SE now :D

Hey Vassils,

Don't lose sleep, and you sound very sane-so you won't, regarding your mix-up between the the two Lampi models.  I have had four DACs that cost between 10K to around 30K in for audition, only care about redbook- I spin CD's, and did not buy any of them because the DACs that I was using were just as good if not better.  And these DACs were bettered by the AM SE.  Remember, besides personal taste and synergy, EGO ownership and the price tag comes rapidly into play. My experience as a professional reviewer is that owners of much more expensive pieces and other companies that charge out of your mind prices quickly become defensive, if you dare to state that much less expensive gear competes with theirs. Also, the differences in performance between their much more expensive piece and something like the AM SE are magnified totally out of proportion.  There is no "BEST" in high-end audio, lots of great gear.  However, the Audio Mirror SE is not just great for the $, but offers a level of performance that competes with so much more expensive DACs I understand why this could lead to some disgruntled  owners of other DACs. 

  

Again, just wondering what DACs $10K to $30K this was compared to.  That helps me understand how things sound different by the design and parts quality.  All parts have sound and I get more understanding when I know what things are compared to.  Like when I speak to Mike Fremer, he tells me the differences he hears and on what recordings so that I can understand what he is hearing and then I can go and see if I hear the same differences for myself.  Also especially when I go visit him and hear exactly what he hears in his system.

Personally I do not own any DAC, preamp or amp that any of you own.  I have been down that road and I now build my own components to the sound that I prefer.  I spend more on parts than what most components have inside them.

I enjoy reading most threads here especially when knowledge is shared in a way that is communicated in detail.

Anyone in the NYC area, I am always interested in meeting and sharing experiences.

Happy Listening.

@teajay is very excited about this DAC and rightfully so.  He invited me over to heard it and it was sounding excellent!  I agree that it sounds better in his setup than than the stock MHDT Orchid and it wasn't even fully broken in yet!

@grannyring I agree that the true test would be against a modded Orchid.  I modded mine with the V-Cap ODAM (no copper bypass) and it was a huge improvement.  I think the modded Orchid would be much closer to the SE version.  Ultimate comparison might be using the Dueland caps and Z-foil in the Orchid vs the AM SE that has the same.  It's nice that Audio Mirror basically sells a pre-modded DAC for those that are not into modding and want to retain their warranty.

Some interesting comparisons going on, within this thread as well as the thread about the Lampizator Amber 3 dac and Orchid. As mentioned on that thread, I am presently using a modified Orchid dac (by Bill Dion/Grannyring), with Vishay naked Zfoil and Audio Note Tantalum resistors, Vcap Odam and Vcap CuTF caps, as well as a Synergistics Research Orange fuse. I have been very enamored with the sound of this modified dac, although I have not heard the Amber 3 nor the AM SE. Just listened yesterday for several hours. There are moments where time seemed to stand still. Music is presented in a most effortless, natural (to these ears) manner that draws you in rather than being thrust upon you. Sound stage is expansive, depending upon the particular recording. Vocals can be intimate in an almost spooky way. I do wonder, without hearing the comparisons myself, whether the differences between these dacs might come down to personal preferences, what priorities one may have. This modified Orchid ticks off all the boxes for me, but that doesn't mean it would necessarily be everyone's cup of tea. Especially if one preferred a more forward, in your face sort of presentation. Other equipment in my system may also help describe my preferences: Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE/Stage 2 preamp, First Watt SIT 3 amp, Audio Note AN/J LX speakers, Oppo BDP105 used with hard drive attached. 
By the way, from what I have been told I am not sure that Duelund caps will fit in the Orchid dac, at least not without some effort. Might be a moot point for some as before I went ahead with this mod, I did a lot of research about the Vcap Odams, and it appeared that at least some preferred these caps to the Duelunds which again might just be a matter of personal preference.

Duelunds won’t fit in the Orchid. You could/may fit a small .47-1uf value, but I would not use a value that low in the dac. Frankly the Odam & Cutf combo is every bit as good if not better. In this particular unit the Odam & Cuft bypass combo (2.2uf & .01uf) are a better match. Great synergy of combined strengths of the stock unit and this cap combo. I have used all the Duelund caps for years and am very familiar with them as well as Jupiter copper foils.

Has anyone experimented with different coax cables with the AMT III? I'm using a CA CXC as a transport and suspect there are gains to be had with better cables. I have tried 2 different cable from Straightwire and the results are significant enough to consider exploring. 

BTW did some mods on the CXC that provided improvement. Put in some Dynamat, redirected a wire and separated 2 wires that were clipped together.

A cross-post from the Lampizator Amber 3 thread that I think people here would be interested in too...

~~~~
Finished my dac shootout today... had the Lampizator Amber 3, Audio Mirror Tubadour 3 SE, ifi iDSD pro, and Shiit Bifrost 2 on hand. Previously also had a Matrix x-sabre pro, PS Audio Directstream, and PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC MK2 in the same system. All were fed lossless Tidal with the SPDIF output of a Magna Mano Ultra streamer. Speakers are Coincident PREs, amplified by First Watt F4 monoblocks, and a Don Sach's DS-3 6SN7 preamp (see my system page for full details).

First, I'd like to echo Bill's comments about Colin of Gestalt Audio. Total class act, and highly recommended for any purchase. He's been responsive, helpful, and not at all pushy. Perfect service.

For review: In my system, the Audio Mirror was the winner. To my ears, it was the most real sounding of the bunch. It has beautiful "meat on the bones" and was the most holographic. The Amber sounded good, but in a very different way. For me, it was brighter and more lively. The soundstage was huge, but had less depth and liquidity than the AM. I also liked the iFi iDSD pro (used in tube+ mode with the bitperfect filter). It had great tonality, but was significantly flatter and less 3-dimensional than the AM. I think more people should give it a shot. The Shiit was good. Very even-handed and competent, but more "digital sounding" to my ears. My friend was listening blind and liked it the second best of the group (behind the AM).  

Despite its king-of-the-hill status in specs (see Audio Science Review), I did not enjoy the Matrix x-Sabre Pro. It was very quiet and clean, with a nice mellow sound, but also a bit "grey" and sterile. I also did not like the PS Audio Directream, which just sounded wrong in my system. It felt disjointed. I don't know what the situation is, but for some reason it doesn't work with my ears. Unlike others, I actually preferred the PerfectWave over it (twice - as I tried upgrading two times over a 4 year span).  

All in all, it was great to finally listen to a wide range of sources, and I could enjoy most of the ones in the stable. The experience also brought me closer to my AM T3-SE. A beautiful, highly recommended dac.

just a little thought about the AM3 SE Dac and the Cambridge CXC transport...Well i recently changed Transports from the CXC to The Audiolab 6000cdt transport and let me tell you the difference was not SMALL!...The Audiolab was BETTER in every thing we value..Bass...Treble...Huge soundstage..The list goes on,!,,,and sold my CXC and would not want it back..and the audiolab and the AM3 SE are a match made in audio Nivana!...TRUTH! .....As always in audio and LIFE YMMV!!

@musichead the best cable I've found between the AM and CXC is a Silnote Morpheus lll.The separation between the instruments and vocals,tone,timbre,and lack of glare is really excellent.I've tried quite a few in the past six months and it is head and shoulders above the rest.Give it a try.

I want to concur with the conclusions of fellow poster Cal3713 regarding that the AM 3 SE has the most beautiful liquidity and "ease" that allows you to relax into the music.  In the past two weeks I have compared the AM 3 SE to my standard Orchid, a modified Orchid, and Lamp Amber 3, and across the board I found, in the context of my system, the Audio Mirror to perform at a higher musical level.

I will be writing my formal review for Stereo Times in the next few weeks that will get into all the details regarding Vlad's wonderful music making DAC.

Thanks TJ.  All of the hubbub about the AM, Amber, and Orchid has made for fascinating reading.   Makes me want all three.

@teajay Obviously impressions are always heavily system dependent, but it's still good to have people agree with you.  Glad to read that we heard things similarly... looking forward to reading the full AM-T3 SE review.

What exact parts were used in the upgraded Orchid? Very important as I know from experience a specific recipe works best for the type of sound you and many like. Did it have the SR Orange fuse? Was the Amber 3 newer or fully broken in with at least 300 hours of play time? The Amber needs at least 250 hours to come into its own.  Also, tube rolling and an SR Orange fuse do wonders for this dac.   Just the one 12au7 needs attention.  It takes time and a little attention to details to make the Amber really sing beautifully. 

Lastly,  in addition to these questions one must also consider system synergy and subjective preferences. No doubt these play a substantial role in the dac one would prefer.  

What exact parts were used in the upgraded Orchid? Very important as I know from experience a specific recipe works best for the type of sound you and many like. Did it have the SR Orange fuse? Was the Amber 3 newer or fully broken in with at least 300 hours of play time? The Amber needs at least 250 hours to come into its own.  Also, tube rolling and an SR Orange fuse do wonders for this dac.   Just the one 12au7 needs attention.  It takes time and a little attention to details to make the Amber really sing beautifully. 

Lastly,  in addition to these questions one must also consider system synergy and subjective preferences. No doubt these play a substantial role in the dac one would prefer.