Another new DAC: Audio Mirror

Has anyone compared the different inputs on the AM? USB vs AES or Coax?

I have compared USB vs. I2S. It scales with the source. The better source always wins. I've had the I2S sounding better than the USB. And I've had the USB sounding better than the I2S. But that's with sources that are much more expensive than the Audio Mirror DAC.

It's interesting that because of its price, the Audio Mirror DAC is not considered as some of the high end class DACs. And as such, it has a different target. Most people who get the Audio Mirror DAC would not buy a streamer like the Innuos Statement, or PinkFaun 2.16x, or Grimm Audio MU1, or Taiko Extreme. And the people who have spent that much on a streamer would never even for a second consider using an AM DAC. Typically at those people's systems, even the cheapest cable is more expensive than the Audio Mirror DAC. 

This is somewhat sad, because you have no idea what the AM DAC is capable of until you connect a really really good source. It scales really well even with the best sources out there. 

People here are so obsessed about DAC comparisons. And especially the Orchid fans are all over this thread for some reason, besides the multiple other Orchid threads out there. It reminds me of the massive attacks and total defenses of some of our popular US news channels. But that's not the point. I have compared quite a few pretty well designed DACs in my system. And with all of them the difference that an improved source provided was more significant that the difference between the DACs. And I am talking about radically different DACs -  let's say the AM DAC vs. Terminator - two quite different DAC designs and implementations. 

There is a difference between using CD players and streamers. CD players typically use the SPDIF / AES/EBU interface. And a good CD player with SPDIF sounds a lot better than many low-end and mid-fi streamers (which is what I guess a lot of the AM users use). If you have settled on a CD player and digital cable, and you are not into streaming, then it makes sense to try different DACs and fine tune it by discovering what sounds best in your system. There is no "best" for everyone, only what works "best" for you in your system. 

Every chip used to process digital signal has its own sound signature. When it comes to SPDIF, both DACs (Audio Mirror and the Orchid) use the same CS8416 chip to process the digital signal. They would have a similar sound signature in that regard.  But then they use different DAC chips. One is using the AD1865N and the other is using the TDA1541A chip. Both of these chips have their own sound signature. And then they have a slightly different power supply section and different analog sections. Different tubes would make those DACs sound different. The coupling caps have their own sound signature. The Mundorf caps @grannyring is installing in the power supply will also change the sound. Fuses, cables, resistors... everything has an influence on the sound. Even the vibration treatment.

I hope you get it - it's an endless comparisons game. Vlad is working non-stop on improving his DAC. By the time you are done with this test, there will be better upgrades by AM. In fact there are already some new things he came up with. 

But going back to sources and inputs. If you using a CD player, and you are an owner of a top CD transport, I almost envy you. For those streaming digital music, it takes a lot of effort to make a digital streamer sound better than a top class CD player. But once you get to that point, you are at another level. Adding a really good streamer (read: a lot more expensive than the AM DAC) is a game changer. At that point, and only at that point the USB and the I2S inputs on the AM DAC sound a lot better than SPDIF / AES/EBU. A LOT BETTER! I mean, all of these changes of tubes, cables, fuses, caps, resistors, and so on combined together are not even close to the difference a world class streamer would make with this DAC. 

This was a pretty long answer trying to explain that at that level and beyond the source makes a bigger difference than the DAC. But also, it's not easy to compare two inputs with an identical source.
Here is why - the better sources, even if they have multiple outputs, use different chips for each output type. At that point, since every chip has its own sound signature, you don't know if you are comparing the DAC inputs or the source outputs.

But I was able to do one input comparison that might be worth mentioning. There are some sources that use the same chip for more than one output type - for example, the PinkFaun streamers have a PCIe card using the CMedia CM8888 chip which has a SPDIF and I2S output. 
This was probably the highest end SPDIF and I2S source I've had in my system. They were also clocked with the PinkFaun €1250 Ultra OCXO clock. And I did compare the SPDIF and the the I2S inputs on the Audio Mirror DAC with that PinkFaun source.
 
There was however one gotcha. One used a SPDIF cable, and the other used a HDMI cable. So, again - have I heard the difference between inputs or a difference between cables?!? Probably both... Which one did I like more? Definitely the I2S. 

BTW, I was a big fan of 44.1kHz digital files and did not necessarily like high resolution files. With that PinkFaun source (I2S output) and the Audio Mirror DAC I heard for the first time hires digital recordings that sounded significantly better than 44.1kHz.

@vassils thanks for the great response. I’m using a Lumin U1 Mini as network transport so I have everything but i2s. And my cd transport is Audiolab 6000CDT. 

I’m starting to compare the USB vs AES. And found out the usb section is an amanero combo 384 board which is a great usb input. 
All my cables are audio sensibility statement SE. I’ve thought about upgrading to their signature series. 

I use an Audio Sensibility Coax digital cable with the AM DAC. I purchased the Statement and Signature cable with the understanding I could return one. Based on common opinion on the net digital cable are all the same I wanted to compare them. Tried the Statement cable first for a few days thinking the differences would be subtle and I would need to normalize myself to it first. When I switched cables it took me 10 seconds to understand and the differences where huge and very important musically! Not subtle at all, the Statement cable went back the next day.

@musichead great to hear the Signature cable was an obvious upgrade!

Hey Kray...waiting to Hear more about your shootout...any more thoughts about the two DAC'S???

@audio123 I should have it complete by Wednesday. I got the SR fuse in the AM on Friday and been playing it nonstop. Plan on switching back to orchid Wednesday to make my final comparison. 
Work has been crazy busy for me, opposite of a lot of folk, but I work in tech that helps people work from home/remote, so my dedicated listening time has been less. 

Understood...thanks kray for the update....and to all who Participate in this thread...Please stay safe in these Krazy times!!

Thanks kray. I look forward to your review too. 

Here’s a serious question.

Should I buy a pre-amp so I can try the Audio Mirror DAC?

Is it that good?

I’ve been using DACs and CDPs with volume controls directly into amps for years.

@rja I'd say yes.  I'd also been using DAC volume control (via PS Audio's PWD II and Directstream DAC).  Adding a preamp to my system improved every aspect.  I've got a Don Sach''s 6SN7 preamp.  

And I continue to fully recommend the AM dac.  Check my earlier posts for outcomes of my shootout if you haven't already.

Well let me see how best to describe this comparison...

Fully modded MHDT Orchid (Grannyring’s personal DAC with more upgrades than normal) with WE396 tube and HiFi Tuning black/copper fuse. vs Audio Mirror Tubadour III SE with SR Blue fuse. Both using USB with Audio Sensibility Statement USB cable.

Also using Line Magnetic 518ia SET integrated to Omega Super 6 Alnico XRS speakers. Source a Lumin U1 Mini with Qobuz. 

Trying not to use too many audiophile words... the Orchid was the best DAC I‘ve had so far. From a Soekris 1321 to RME ADI-2, the Gungnir MB to Audio Note Kits 4.1LE.... The Orchid was the best of of both between the Gungnir and ANK 4.1. Not as hyper detailed as the Gungnir.... better black background... but not overly smooth like the ANK, but better detail and air. The RME was too clinical and sterile so not even close to these IMHO.

The Orchid is smooth and musical but has lots of detail and air to it. Such a great combination.
I thought I was pretty much done looking for dacs but the AM was so intriguing and one popped up used, so I snagged it it compare then sell the one I’m not gonna keep. Both dacs have plenty of time on them. Both over 300hrs. 
So short to say the AM does everything the Orchid does right but just adds something special. It’s not night and day, but there’s just a bit more 3D to it. Some of the details come thru with a little more weight to them. The lingering notes and air is a little more prevalent. The AM is my final DAC for now. It’s a keeper. I give it the nod due to the extras it has for future use as well. It has AES & i2s digital inputs and XLR balanced outputs (I don’t have any XLR connections now but nice to know I have them down the road) and Isoacoustic Gaia feet. 
That said the Orchid is an amazing value even with the mods added. If you don’t need the extras the AM has I’d say the Orchid is 90%+ the sound equivalent to the AM SE. it’s really close and a testament to the orchid and Grannyring’s great work. So I’ll be selling the Orchid soon. 
For those wondering I compared the AES and USB on the AM and felt the USB has a slight edge. It uses the great Amanero 384 combo board.

@kray

" That said the Orchid is an amazing value even with the mods added. If you don’t need the extras the AM has I’d say the Orchid is 90%+ the sound equivalent to the AM SE. "
Can you clarify what you mean by " If you don’t need the extras the AM has ".?  Both versions of the DACs you have incorporate upgraded parts over their respective "standard" versions.

One comment on your Orchid. You have not placed the Mullard ECC189/CV5331 tube in it. Talk to SewG here as he put that tube in the Orchid and it took the Orchid up another level again.  No joke. 

Easily a 15% plus upgrade sonically. The WE tube is not close according to Stew. You get that special magic that you are talking about. If you did that your Orchid would still come in at 1/2 the cost of the AM and I bet you like the sound more! 

kray - thanks for doing the comparisons! 
that AM certainly has something special that's just hard to describe. you did pretty pretty good - enjoy!

@facten 


" If you don’t need the extras the AM has " - I’m referring to the AES & i2s digital inputs, the XLR balanced outputs, and the isoacoustics gaia feet

Thank you kray for making time to post your thoughts.It really is a huge help for those who are trying to make a decision.I've never heard the Orchid but it was on my list before going with the AM last year.I agree that the dimensionality is outstanding.

GRANNYRING....
Does the Mullard ECC189 require a tube adapter or is it ok to use it in place of the WE tube mentioned.

THANKS...

Yes it does.  User StewG can help you with a link to the supplier. Only $25 and high quality. He was floored by how much better the dac sounded with this tube over the WE tube. He said it was HUGE! 

Tvad! Hadn't seen you around and just saw all you content has been deleted. What a shame, you have good ears and more people should copy your preferences.

Unfortunately I don't have the ability to provide the comparison information you're after, but I have the dac's lid off and Vlad is using Jensen jt-11p-11b transformers in that location. 

Also, given what I remember about your equipment preferences, I think you should take AM up on the home trial and just give it a shot. This dac just sounds so beautifully natural on my Coincident PREs.

As you've probably already read earlier in the thread better it is better than the Lampizator Amber 3, PS Audio Directstream & Perfectwave, Matrix X-Sabre Pro, ifi iDSD Pro, and Shiit Bifrost 2 in my system.

Tvad, " If you run the Balanced Pagoda balanced, in my opinion, its at least as good if not slightly better then the Tubadour III SE for about $400 less" from teajay who reviewed them. And it’s truly balanced, not like the AM. The balanced version was designed to be a real balanced structure; i.e. two Pagoda, one in positive sig and one negative.
$2020 https://www.lineartubeaudio.com/products/mhdt-labs-dacs

Ahhh, sorry for missing that @tvad . Wish I could help out. I do know the pass labs diy crowd loves their Cinemag transformers and prefer them to Jensens... it's what Nelson runs in the front of the sit3. A good company too. They make those little audio transformers at a loss just to help people out (and for the advertising, I presume).

What pre are you using?

While I wait on Vlad to get back to me on buying this DAC maybe someone with an AM SE can answer this question.

If the XLR option is selected will that result in a DAC with both RCA and XLR output. If so, are both outputs active? I will have 2 preamps on my office system (1 for headphones) and would like to hookup the AM SE to both pre amps. Of course, only 1 preamp would be turned on at any time.

BTW - is email the best way to contact Vlad?

@tvad Great thanks for that info.

I just bought the Benchmark DAC3B (again) and will buy the AM SE if I can find someone to sell me one (anyone, Vlad?).

I bought a CODA CSib integrated amp a few days ago which will be function as headphone amp for RAAL SR1a. The AM SE is for the bright RAAL's with the CODA but I would like to also use the AM SE with my speakers connected to an all Benchmark stack. 

I want to have both the DAC3B and AM SE connected to the Benchmark HPA4 preamp which should offer quite the contrast. So based on your answer I can do this.

I am new to tubes. This DAC will be the first one I have owned from the dark side. I was wondering how one knows when to replace the tubes?

That's the worst part of using tubes in my opinion. Usually they just gradually lose their "vitality" over time rather than failing in a noticable way. Best thing to do in my experience is to get a second pair of your main tubes and try switching them with your primary pair every once in a while (6 months, a year). If they sound the same (or worse), you know the originals are still good. I'm over a year into my first set on the AM and still prefer that pair to the new ones.

Even though tubes have recommended life spans, some keep working well long after that time is up. Others don't make it that far...

Or get a tube tester (just kidding).

ok the AM is a great DAC , but now we've got another monster rearing it's ugly head called the PrimaLuna Evo 100.
i'm tired of my YGGY 2 and am going to buy either the AM or the PL .
stressed out !!! which one lol?

Vlad has another "new Dac" that will hit sometime in the next 2 months...price will be $3500....we will have to wait but alot in this new dac ha to do with USB....Not sure what chip or "NEW" tube implation he will use...but sounds to me as a one man band who made a great reasonible dac is going for the golden egg.....my audio club will buy and give the most honest review....skeptical...too say the least
 

@audio123 Looking forward to the report.

Any update @audio123 ?

I was really considering an AM when the price jumped $500, which gave me pause.  His new dac looks good with transformer coupling, which Audio Note and Ear used in the Acute. I’ll see how the next couple of months go to see how my investments do, but I am not optimistic. Down 14% as of today. 

Grretings to all my audio Sistas and Brothers...My new Dac from Vlad was recevied on Early Janurary...Our club was very excited to get together with Other Dac’s....such as Vlads 3se...the latest Holo Dac..Sctitts revamed viggy and from poland there comparable Lampazator. to name a few..WE were planning a shoot out in early Feb when my wife became sick...and ended up with Veryl early stage 1 Breast cancer...well Suzie came thru with great strength and resolve...leading me to piggy back of her stength to Listen to Vlads Latest AMAZING Dac....so as our Lord gave us our beautiful Life(40yrs married) back i spent hous my self comparing his Latest to his 3se and a few other dacs and my 5k turtable rig....to put it balnk (a shoot out comming with our Pittsburgh Audio Heads will happen!),,this Dac is AMAZING!!...If you thought the 3rd se was great...well this will make your head do a 180 and ask your self how Krazy Good is Vlad with his musical Gig(Drummer like my self)...and a Golden ear and engineering audio designer...so run don’t walk to get this $3500 Dac that will keep you up deep into the Eve at a Price that is...how you say..Best Buy?...but much more detail to come as we get 2gether to rock all these Great Dac’s and shake them upside down...God Bless and PLEASE Hug and Let your Loved ones know how much you love them...Peace and staytuned!!

Great post @audio123 

i went thru about 10 dacs several years ago before landing on the III SE. it was my top dac. 
 

then I went thru a phase of selling off all my gear and starting with new dacs. And current day, about 3 dacs later I returned the the Audio Mirror IV SE and I’m done with dacs. It’s so good for the money, there’s no need to look elsewhere in my setup. God bless!

@kray @audio123 This thread has been a great source of information as I am purchasing a new DAC and leaning toward the AM Troubadour SE IV or the Sonnet Morpheus. It was good to read that the USB input in the AM is excellent!  I’d need to buy a DDC and special cable for the Sonnet DAC because apparently its USB input is not nearly as good as its I2S input. My streamer is an Aurender N150 which only has a USB output.  My current DAC is a Chord Qutest which has excellent clarity and tonality but a narrow and not really holographic soundstage.

==> any advice regarding the fuse options or other advice regarding the Troubadour DAC?  Thanks!