If you live in the NYC radio listening area WQXR2, a HD secondary station of WQXR broadcasts contemporary classical music 24/7. Of course, you can listen to it via their website as well. |
I read the first part of this and the last few posts--what are we talking about at this point? |
Prokofiev was a composer of great talent who wrote
some of the greatest works if the last century.
His Piano Concerto #3 and Piano Sonata # 7 in particular
are towering masterworks.
How ANY lover of music could not smile at his suites, Lt. Kije, Love for Three Oranges and Romeo and Juliet is beyond me. |
Borodin String Quartet # 2 recorded by Melodia by the Borodin String Quartet in 1980. I hope you will enjoy much of it-if not all. |
Eldartford, can I make a music recommendation?
"The Essential Clarinet" by Richard Stoltzman.
Contains works by Copland, Bernstein, Stravinsky, Corigliano.
I have this disc for about a week now and just can't stop listening. |
I guess we are "High" Class stoners, but to be honest I dont partake often but that would be a great time to splurge. |
Chad...
durin' munch?
I wasn't stoned and was enjoying but I admit a great idea...
To me Bach is best appreciated stoned + wine and cheese and crackers:-) |
"mmmmmmmmmmmmmm Cheese and Crackers" (Homer Simpson voice) |
Ah!...Now I understand why I can't appreciate contemporary music. With Mozart even the wine and cheese is optional. |
You bring the papers........... |
Hello, I would like to see it stoned also, but I sure would not want to pronounce it stoned.
Bob |
I would love to see Koyanisquatsi, especially stoned! Oops that isnt "Classically correct" but I would be dressed nice. |
Marakanetz...Interestingly most of the Tanglewood audience seems to be from NYC and adjacent NJ. |
Once in BAM I and my other 2 friends had 2 tickets extra to sell for the concert & video show of Phillip Glass "Koyanisquatsi".
We sold these 2 tickets with enough profit to be on this great concert for free...
Couldn't book myself for Michael Nyman concert and tickets on the outside were upto 4x original price.
Yep, Tanglewood is certainly different from New York. |
Today's local newspaper reports that the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and particularly their summer festival, Tanglewood, in Western Massachusetts is in dire financial straits. The new musical director, James Levine, has redirected the program towards more contemporary music, and we are seeing the result. One concert, Schoenberg's "intense and difficult" Gurrelieder saw 300 musicians playing to a mostly empty house. Things are so bad that the volunteers who staff the Tanglewood concerts are being required to "contribute" $75.
Nothing that a little Mozart couldn't cure!
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Eldartford,
It's because you don't understand the peas ;)
Lousyreed1,
Youre right I was really referring to dissonance when talking about Beethoven and Bach since they both centered around a tonal home key. Dont we all like to go home at the end of the day though? I like to resolve at the end of a movie or composition.
George Crumbe Hummingbird something - Im not sure but it was screeching violins and random noises seemingly not organized although Im sure it was.
Seurat,
I love Alfred Brendel too - never flashy, never overplays a piece. |
Brownsfan...Following "quit after Peter and the Wolf" I ought to have put a :-). An exaggeration of course, but you get my drift.
Seurat...Yes, those four notes, by themselves, are strongly rhythmic, but they do have tone, and are answered, in matching rhythm, by four more notes of different tone, leading into a development. Taken as a whole there is a melody.
I guess I have stirred up enough discussion for a while. I will probably be hearing modern music each week at the same time while I wait in the car for my wife to teach her Yoga class. The classical music station seems to reserve this particular time slot for modern music.
When I was a kid my mother told me to eat my peas. "Just try a few" she said. "You will learn to like them".
I still hate peas!
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Eldartford,
"Don't we all narrow our musical choices to stuff we like?"
No sir, we don't. The list of music that I didn't especially like until after a considerable investment in multiple hearings, and in some cases, multiple performances, is quite long. Indeed, if I followed your rule, I might still be listening to "Old McDonald had a Farm." In my youth I found the tune quite likeable and humable.
There remain works of both the classical and modern eras that I just don't quite connect with, even after some effort. Beethoven's Missa Solemnis is such a work. So also are all of the works of Elliot Carter that I have heard. In both cases, I am confronted by a considerable number of advocates, so that it would seem that the deficiency lies with me, not with the composer. In the case of the Beethoven, I'm determined not to give up quite yet. However, it is unlikely that the Missa Solemnis will ever get the playing time of Prokofiev's piano sonatas in my home. I and many other people respectfully disagree with your outrageous assertion that Prokofiev should have stopped at Peter and the Wolf.
As has been stated previously in this thread, no one likes everything. Each listener will make his own choices, and I think we all welcome expression of an appropriately respectful negative opinion about a particular work. I urge caution about painting with too broad a brush, so that entire eras or genres are dismissed.
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Eldartford, I love Classical Music including Contemporary Classical Music, and I'm extremely pleased that you love it too. I'm just trying to get new public to modern music.
Of the examples you gave I apreciate all of them. But I must say one thing about Beethoven 5th. Althougth everyone hums this, we are talking about a rhythmic motif, not a melodic one. And he brilliantly makes a symphony out of it. Breath taking. A gigantic leap in terms of music composition. In is time the reponse to is music was very ambiguous.
Brahms is a difficult composer. Is ideas are dense and hard to grasp. Every passage, note, gesture as a key role in is big canvas of composition. Even is chamber music as a symphonic character (the string quarttets). Concentration and memory is very important for the music of Brahms to be understood. Sometimes a music diploma, unfortunately.
Prokofiev is another composer that uses rhythm as, almost, the main ingredient of is music. I'm glad he dindt stop at "Peter and the Wolf", and wrote some woderfull piano sonatas, piano concertos and violin sonatas, and ........
One of the major leaps in XX century music was in terms of rhythm.
Cheers, and continue to enjoy music you love, but I hope you open your mind to new stuff.
PS- As I wrote this Beethoves piano sonata nº 12 in A flat, Op 26 is being played by the great Alfred Brendel. |
Seurat...Beethoven "Moonlight" sonatta and the first four notes of the 5th are some of the most well recognized music there is. Very hummable. Of course, after he went deaf...
Brahms violin concerto is perhaps my favorite, but some of his later chamber music confuses me.
Don't we all narrow our musical choices to stuff we like?
This morning's dose (on the radio) was Prokofief voilin concerto #2. He should have quit after "Peter and the Wolf".
. |
My original posting simply reported a fact, delayed audience response, which anyone at a live performance can verify, and which suggests to me that the audience was disconnected from the music. I'll take a delayed audience response any day of the week to an audience that thinks they should applaud in between movements, or anytime there is a break in the sound. |
"I like music if I can hum it" - This narrows your musical choices.
Take a sonata form; you ear the theme exposition, maybe the re-exposition, skip the development (the biggest part of the composition), and click on the play at the end to ear the theme recapitulation. By this I assume that almost all the music from the Romantic Period, wich subverted and by this broadened the classical forms, like the sonata form, is not your cup of tea. Composers like Brahms, Bruckner, Schumann, Wagner, Mahler, etc, are out of your list?. And what about Beethoven ?! Not the melody type of composer for one to hum. Dam you Beethoven for beying a lousy melodist.
Music is not just melody. Melody is just a part of the music. Ok, for you the most important, but by going this way you are just hearing a small part of the musical composition.
IMHO you must try to broad your horizons, to ear the musical compositon in all of its facets, as a whole.
PS- Dont try to hum Stravinsky "Rite of Spring" cause you will get hiccups. |
Lousyreeds1...Serious question...Do you feel that there are any criteria which separate "sound" from "music"? For example: how about a collage of random sound snippets, which is how some of your (___?) music sounds to me. If this is "music" could not the same be said of an assembly of sounds created by technical difficulties of a recording playback system? How do you distinguish music from sound?
To be fair I ought to offer my own answer to the question.
I have summarized my view by "I like music if I can hum it". Going further, it is "music" if it makes me *want* to hum it. Indeed, sometimes a catchy tune gets going around in your head, and you can't stop humming it! "Music" triggers a special reaction in the mind whereas "sound" is merely heard. Your mind is different from mine, so what is "music" to you may be "sound" to me. Note that my definition does not consider whether the sound has been deliberately composed by someone. |
Eldartford, the ingenious subtlety of your prose was lost on me. My apologies. I hope I was the only one.
Your "delayed audience response" theory was explained away by a number of posters.
Those who would claim that rap is not music without citing an example and providing a thorough explanation should not be trusted.
Robm: it's fine to dislike the use of atonality, but you should understand what that means. Neither Bach nor Beethoven ever wrote atonally. There's a difference between atonality and plain old dissonance, and I think you're confusing them. Serialism, which you say you enjoy, is by definition atonal. Which piece did you listen to that was mentioned above?
I hope I haven't given the impression that I think any of this is "stupid". That was not my intention, and I apologize if that's how it came across. However, there has been a lot of false information passed around (atonality, etc). That's ignorant. Not stupid, not indicative of a lack of knowledge. |
I agree with eldartford. No offense to those that like that style, but like "modern art" it is lost on me and will stay lost. It's not music to me. I'm not into sound effects. - I've listed one of the works above - you know what music I mean. The other styles of modern classical music are enjoyable however. Minimalism, serialism (I think).
As far as how it makes me feel. It's disturbing sounding. If I wanted that effect I'd put on modern heavy metal. |
Lousyreeds1..."That" music was an acknowledgement that the term "modern" is not quite correct. Sorry if you didn't get that.
My original posting simply reported a fact, delayed audience response, which anyone at a live performance can verify, and which suggests to me that the audience was disconnected from the music.
It seems to me that one can validly comment on a genre of music, not just specific pieces. You yourself referred to "Gregorian chant, very mainstream", without citing "Genuit puerpera regem". Many people feel that Rap is not music, and they don't feel obligated to cite specific examples. (Whoops...now I will have the rappers mad at me).
So everyone go listen to what they like. Just, don't take the attitude that because they disagree with you they must be ignorant or stupid. |
If you're going to post snyde comments about what you call 'that' music, you should at least be able to tell us what music you're refering to. That's not so much to ask.
To do otherwise is irresponsible. It could encourage in others the close-mindedness that you've embraced.
No one likes all of the music that's been written since Rite of Spring. I certainly don't. But many people will find something intriguing if they keep an open mind. Your consistent generalizations about how 'modern music' sounds and how it makes people feel (again, without being able to reference your attacks with a salient example) are a disservice to this community, which I believe should be a mechanism for encouraging people to try new things (equipment, music, whatever).
I hope people who have read this thread have come away with an impression that the world of 'modern music' is as diverse as any other, and that generalizations about the genre as a whole are meaningless.
Check out some of the pieces that folks have recommended. Most of it's probably downloadable, so you can try it for free. It would be fantastic to get a discussion going about some of them. |
Lousyreeds1...As the saying goes..."If I said that I was misquoted".
I am *dissapointed* not proud that most modern music leaves me cold, and I consider myself an *observer* of the sociology of musical appreciation, not an expert like you, sir.
As to citing specific composers and compositions, I am not about to get sucked into a contest with an expert like you!
In most cases I do not take note of the composer/composition that I dislike because I will never go looking for it on a CD. One exception that does come to mind is Philip Glass, because he does get considerable mention in the general press, and because his music does have a character that is recognizable, even to me. Many of the names that have been mentioned are familiar to me, and their work must have been included in what I have heard, but I can't give specifics. |
Please, Eldartford. You're quite proud of the fact that you can't understand most modern music, and have made it quite clear that you consider yourself an expert in the sociology of musical appreciation.
As I've asked so many times, to which pieces are you refering? Be specific for once. Convince those of us who are interested in modern music that your assertions are based in some sort of knowledge and experience, rather than unsubstantiated drivel. We've gone round and round in this thread, yet you keep coming back to your vague anecdotes. What gives? |
Lousyreeds1...I can agree with that. It says that I am not too proud to admit that I can't appreciate most modern music. I could pretend, as many seeking acceptance do, but that would not be me.
By the way, the sounds resulting from the "technical difficulties" really were not far from some compositions that I have heard. I am not the only one who could be fooled. |
Says a lot more about you as a listener than about "'that' music", as you so degradingly call it... |
A funny thing happened yesterday. A radio station that I often listen to was playing some of "that" music. I was in my car, and parked it to go into a store. When I came back the radio program really grabbed my attention. It was just an awful noise, sounding much like a CD that is skipping, combined with a radio being quickly tuned from one station to another. "AH", I thought..."This is really over the top. I will stay tuned, and find out what the name of this piece is so I can tell you guys about it".
After about a minute an announcer came on and apologized for the network technical problems. For what? It sounded like new music. You could have fooled me.
True story.
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John,
I have listened to Speigal and agree with you. I think I like the minimalist movements the best. Thanks for the Vasks recommendation. I'll check it out.
I have to say though that I was unimpressed with Crumb - he might do well in a Hollywood sound effects studio, but I don't consider that music. Or course I've heard only one song of his (hummingbird or something).
Rob |
Robm321
Also listen to Speigal im Speigal. One of the best versions is on Part's Alina CD. You might also consider Vasks "Distant Light", also very moving.
John |
lol eldartford - how can I argue with that. The more he lost his hearing the more atonal his music became. Go figure.
I have to say that I just finished listening to Arvo Part - Fratres for violin and piano and it is a very moving peice of music - not objectionable sounding at all. |
Robm321...You are absolutely correct about Beethoven's late chamber music. At the time he was deaf. |
"Atonal" has been used by Bach and all the rest. It's not a new discovery. In fact, jazz music can't live without it.
Check out some of Beethoven's late Quartets. They get very atonal to the point where he almost goes past any sense of tonality.
I have been playing devil's advocate to see if I could get some idea of what the appeal to modern classical music. Fortunately, there were answers to my post that gave me hope. Thanks to the posters!
I am like Eldarford in that I like a hybrid of both. I like comfort and discomfort (in music - in life it would be nice to just have comfort but oh well). I think some of the "Atonal" composers were experimenting and breaking new ground. But now I think we are past the "break every rule you can to the most extreme extent" and evolving into something that has freshness and something that we can relate to. I am giving it a listen, and so far I'm impressed.
That being said, I don't think we'll ever match the "golden age" of classical music. They used up most of the most innate motifs IMHO. |
"If I can't hum it, I don't like it." All I can say is that I'm incredibly grateful that this is not the case for me.
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John...My initial posting describes how it evolved from a listening session. Without going into all the details..."If I can't hum it I don't like it". This phrase may sound simplistic, but it concisely states the opinion of most (not all) people. |
Eldartford,
Sorry if I assumed incorrectly, it wasn't obvious from your posts.
So, then am I to assume that you have listened to Gorecki's Third or Arvo Part's Cantus In Memoriam Benjamin Britten - Fratres - Tabula Rasa - Spiegel im Spiegel? If not, my challenge remains.
What other apsects of modern music do you object to?
John |
John...I don't know why you and other modernists assume that I have not listened to modern music, and seriously tried to grasp it. I think I pointed out that, like many, I initially disliked modern art, but over time came to appreciate some aspects of it. Just not so with music. (I have been at it (serious music appreciation) for almost sixty years).
Atonal is just one aspect of the music that I find objectionable. |
Eldarford
Your initial post didn't state the intent of asking why people like modern classical music. Rather your question had to do with the pause after the performance was done. It also seems that your question also pertains to "atonal" music and not other modern works.
I like "atonal" classical music because it is intellectually stimulating. Initially, there was something that pulled me into listening, and now I enjoy the surprises, emotionality, and patterns. Having said that, I only listen to this type of music on an occasional basis because I have to be in the mood for it. I agree that some "atonal" music is difficult, but that's part of allure for me.
IMHO, "atonal" music has been a sort of inspiration for newer works that are much more universally appealing. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I"m not a musicologist), some composers have reacted strongly to "atonal" music, and created gorgeous music that is not strictly "atonal." Arvo Part had a crisis, stopped composing for a while, and then took a much different track to his music, much of which is exceeding beautiful (see my post above). Gorecki also departed from strict atonal composition. His music, especially his Third Symphony, which is mentioned several times in this thread, had been a top seller in England (if my information is correct). Penderecki's Threnody for the Victims of Hirshima is very beautiful and usually brings goosebumps. BTW, this piece won an UNESCO prize.
I challenge you to pick up some of the music mentioned above, listen to it a few times, and then respond.
John |
Lousyreeds1...Yes I have heard Copland"s "Rodeo", one of his more popular works, but I didn't know about his inspiration from tuning up. Of course, inspiration is not quite the same as the actual sound, which I still think could be passed off as a composition. |
Ever listened to the "Hoe Down" from Copland's "Rodeo", Eldartford? The first ten bars or so are inspired by the tuning of an orchestra. |
I am really happy that some people do like "modern" music. To each his own. My intent was to explore why such music draws so few fans, and why, at a time when orchestras face fiscal hard times, they persist in playing it, often to empty halls
Here is an experiment that would be interesting. Make a recording of an orchestra tuning up. See if you can promote it as a new composition. I bet you could! |
Robm, Robm, Robm!
I can't give you details on John Adams creative process, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't involve thin air. Interestingly, I got involved earlier today on another thread when a poster decided to dis Bach's "Opera." As you know, different music is centered in different things. Some music emphasizes lyric elements, some rhythmic, and some philosophical or theological. I suppose all music has a target audience, but the audience for a particular piece may not include me. That does not mean the music is of limited value in objective sense. It may just mean I'm not ready for that particular "hook." I didn't especially like Bruckner or Mahler at first. It took work to acquire the taste, but I grew to love them both.
Archivmusic.com has a pretty good deal on some Arte Nova CDS now. They are $6- $10, and there are some interesting 20th century works. Some of these offerings contain works mentioned in this thread, like the Gorecki 3rd and Copland Piano concerto.
At that price, I could't resist picking up some stuff that will be new to me, such as the Carter Piano concerto and the Furtwangler 2nd. I also got the Copland, which is coupled with concertos by Ravel, Honegger, and Antheil. Just thought I'd mention the sale in case anyone is interested.
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I've read up on Serial/12 tone - they were in the same chapter - they aren't much different. I've also read up on minimalism - which seem to be some of the latest composition techniques. Is it me or are they just making stuff up out of thin air. I mean minimalism is the same droning motifs over and over (I'm simplifying so what?). The tonal stuff comes from years and years of development. Modern classical music seems to be desperate for something new while just making up new rules. No one made the 5th of a scale have the tendency to lead to the 1st to resolve. It was innate- then developed over 100s of years in different ways. The stuff made up now is just made up, not through development. Maybe that's why classical music these days has lost the listener. |
For Shostakovich Quartets try the Borodin Q version on Melodiya. |
Just a quick note of agreement on the Shostakovich quartets - not really as "modern" as what some are listening to here, but that's what makes them more "accessible". As Lousyreeds mentioned - the No.3 is a standout, IMO the Gabrieli Quartet on Decca or even London Treasury vinyl is spectacular both performance-wise and sonically.
Another recommendation in the modern, but not TOO modern, and still very tonal are Benjamin Britten's works, esp. Simple Symphony. |
well in that case I should call myself lousyreed2.
Great posts and thank you for the suggested listening. No matter how difficult modern classical music is to listen and understand, It would far more torture for me to hear country music or certain rap music.
I guess my argument about it being "too complex" for the listener isn't completely valid. It's probably just that there is no "hook" to grab your attention up front. So, I assume you have to have some dedication up front before you get the payoff. |
