Jax2...No I haven't heard that one, but I guess noone else has either. And, believe it or not I do know who Philip Glass is, and his tonal wanderings are quite nice. Now, if he could just think of a melody, and get some rhythm we might have something!
Pragmatist...Of course the applause is deserved by the musicians. I note only the hesitation, and guess that it is because they don't know if it's over or not.
Hodie...An appreciative or stunned silence is another possibility. But superb performances of older pieces don't exhibit the hesitant applause, so I doubt that explanation. |
Lousyreeds1..."Follow the music". What do I mean is a fair question.
At any point in the music, at the end of a phrase, there are a great number of "answering" phrases that will "sound right" according to classical rules of composition. The composer keeps my interest by weaving his way through all the possibilities in an innovative way, but never veering off into the weeds. I don't want one musical phrase to be followed by a random assortment of notes, having little or no relationship to what went before.
I am not "intrigued by modern music" but I am curious about it and why people like/dislike it. One professional violist I know plays it because it is a job, and nothing more. |
sirspeedy70680@earthlink.net...With the kind of classical music that I like the ending is easy to recognize even it I am not familiar with the piece, because certain rules of composition are observed. Some might say this makes it boring. But it allows you to better "follow" the music throughout- not just at the end. As to multiple recordings of the same piece, I find this one of the most interesting things about classical music. Different conductors and soloists bring different interpretations, providing insight into the music. I will sometimes play, for example, one movement of a violin concerto played by several soloists, and it is surprising how different they can be. (Is this the dreaded A/B test method!!) Of course in popular music recording other people's stuff is SOP, called a "cover".
I have been trying to appreciate "modern" music for several decades, with little success. This is in contrast to "modern" art, where my initial disgust has been tempered over the years.
If you really like it, that's great. Enjoy. (And try to clap sooner :-) |
Lousyreeds1...Agreed that a piece which ends quietly, (which is not that common) might have applause delayed slightly, but not 3-5 seconds. Also, "modern" music often ends just as loud as any other kind.
"Random" probably was the wrong word. As one who has some familiarity with statistics, I ought to have said "pseudorandom". Pseudorandom is a sequence which appears to be random, but which actually is generated by an underlying algorithm.
Give me the title of one recommended book. |
Of course, in his day Beethoven was considered dissonant and unlistenable. Maybe in a few hundred years I can learn to like modern music. |
Lousyreeds1...Thanks. I will look for that book.
Our local newspaper, The Berkshire Eagle, has a big story today about how James Levine, the new conductor of the Boston Symphony is planning to redirect the BSO, and the Tanglewood music festival program so as to put emphasis on "new music". I predict that this will be a financial mistake. Actual experience with years of Tanglewood attendance indicates that Mozart concerts are invariably very well attended, while "modern music" plays to empty seats. (James Taylor just was sold out completely for two consecutive nights - no space even on the grass - but that is another whole world).
When I first moved to this area, about 40 years ago, the BSO played a short series of "Bach/Mozart" concerts, using only about half the orchestra. These concerts were really beloved by the local people, and it was a sad day when the program was eliminated. |
Lousyreeds1...I hate to sound so negative, but I do see the nature of "modern" and "new" music to be a problem. MOST modern music I should add. There is some new work that is OK. I agree that people like Levine should support current composers. My complaint is what the composers do with that support. Why can't they compose in an idiom that is more widely appreciated?
You mention that it is customary to mix old and new music in a program. Let me point out another fact for consideration...when some new composition appears along with the Beethoven symphony, which one goes first? The new piece, always. People will sit through it so as to hear Beethoven, but if Beethoven went first the hall would be half empty after intermission.
Music seems to be the only venture where the customer is not always right. |
John...My initial posting describes how it evolved from a listening session. Without going into all the details..."If I can't hum it I don't like it". This phrase may sound simplistic, but it concisely states the opinion of most (not all) people. |
Shubertmaniac..."Inventive" is great, but the real skill is to be inventive within the structure of some rule set...in the case of music, melody, harmony, and rhythm. A random collection of notes, or some obscure musical algorithm, just does not turn me on. Maybe it does you.
By the way I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that Mozart was not inventive. He is most famous for ability to weave a simple theme into a tapestry of variations and developments. |
Lousyreeds1...I don't think that I ever said that my preferences are the only acceptable ones. I have merely commented on some objective evidence that most (yes most) people prefer music that has melody, harmony and rhythm, and that, IMHO, these elements being lacking in a lot of modern music explains why people don't like it. This thread is supposed to be thoughtful analysis, not criticism. If you like to listen to Taiko drumming that's fine with me.
But Gregorian chants...mainstream? Give me a break! |
Lousyreeds1...If you will check my original posting you will see that it was prompted by a conscious effort to listen and appreciate what I have termed "modern" music. As always, (for more than 50 years) this effort led to naught, and I began to think about why this is true.
Your theory seems to be that I am too ignorant to enter your elite world. Sorry about that. |
Marakanetz...I don't claim extensive knowledge about musical structure, but I do know that rule sets provide a framework for composition. There are different rule sets...for example not all music uses an 8-note scale.
For most people, the most obvious rule relates to dissonance. Some combinations of notes are accepted as sounding pleasant, while others are dissonant. Of course, the definition of dissonance has changed over time, and the occasional introduction of a dissonant note adds spice to the music, but a piece composed entirely of dissonance is not pleasant. (I think that most people would agree with this, but a few may not).
Contrary to what Seurat states, I do think that music is intended to be enjoyment for the listener...not an exercise in sonic exploration for the composer and performers.
PS: I pulled out my "Chant" CD and started to play it, but the wife told me to can it and play some Christmas music. A lttle of that goes a long way too. |
Marakanetz... I like "Peter and the Wolf". Maybe that's a start :-) But that piece has lots of melodies that I can hum.
Your comparison of music to language does not advance your point of view. Languages are very structured, with a few irregular verbs, and the like. Speech that lacks structure is not a language. It's called "gibberish". |
Lousyreeds1...On a different subject..I am curious, about your user name. Does it mean you can't sing, or do you have problems with your clarinet? |
Lousyreeds1...Vocal cords are sometimes called "reeds", particularly in a derogatory sense. So I guess it must be the clarinet. |
I am really happy that some people do like "modern" music. To each his own. My intent was to explore why such music draws so few fans, and why, at a time when orchestras face fiscal hard times, they persist in playing it, often to empty halls
Here is an experiment that would be interesting. Make a recording of an orchestra tuning up. See if you can promote it as a new composition. I bet you could! |
Lousyreeds1...Yes I have heard Copland"s "Rodeo", one of his more popular works, but I didn't know about his inspiration from tuning up. Of course, inspiration is not quite the same as the actual sound, which I still think could be passed off as a composition. |
John...I don't know why you and other modernists assume that I have not listened to modern music, and seriously tried to grasp it. I think I pointed out that, like many, I initially disliked modern art, but over time came to appreciate some aspects of it. Just not so with music. (I have been at it (serious music appreciation) for almost sixty years).
Atonal is just one aspect of the music that I find objectionable. |
Robm321...You are absolutely correct about Beethoven's late chamber music. At the time he was deaf. |
A funny thing happened yesterday. A radio station that I often listen to was playing some of "that" music. I was in my car, and parked it to go into a store. When I came back the radio program really grabbed my attention. It was just an awful noise, sounding much like a CD that is skipping, combined with a radio being quickly tuned from one station to another. "AH", I thought..."This is really over the top. I will stay tuned, and find out what the name of this piece is so I can tell you guys about it".
After about a minute an announcer came on and apologized for the network technical problems. For what? It sounded like new music. You could have fooled me.
True story.
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Lousyreeds1...I can agree with that. It says that I am not too proud to admit that I can't appreciate most modern music. I could pretend, as many seeking acceptance do, but that would not be me.
By the way, the sounds resulting from the "technical difficulties" really were not far from some compositions that I have heard. I am not the only one who could be fooled. |
Lousyreeds1...As the saying goes..."If I said that I was misquoted".
I am *dissapointed* not proud that most modern music leaves me cold, and I consider myself an *observer* of the sociology of musical appreciation, not an expert like you, sir.
As to citing specific composers and compositions, I am not about to get sucked into a contest with an expert like you!
In most cases I do not take note of the composer/composition that I dislike because I will never go looking for it on a CD. One exception that does come to mind is Philip Glass, because he does get considerable mention in the general press, and because his music does have a character that is recognizable, even to me. Many of the names that have been mentioned are familiar to me, and their work must have been included in what I have heard, but I can't give specifics. |
Seurat...Beethoven "Moonlight" sonatta and the first four notes of the 5th are some of the most well recognized music there is. Very hummable. Of course, after he went deaf...
Brahms violin concerto is perhaps my favorite, but some of his later chamber music confuses me.
Don't we all narrow our musical choices to stuff we like?
This morning's dose (on the radio) was Prokofief voilin concerto #2. He should have quit after "Peter and the Wolf".
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Lousyreeds1..."That" music was an acknowledgement that the term "modern" is not quite correct. Sorry if you didn't get that.
My original posting simply reported a fact, delayed audience response, which anyone at a live performance can verify, and which suggests to me that the audience was disconnected from the music.
It seems to me that one can validly comment on a genre of music, not just specific pieces. You yourself referred to "Gregorian chant, very mainstream", without citing "Genuit puerpera regem". Many people feel that Rap is not music, and they don't feel obligated to cite specific examples. (Whoops...now I will have the rappers mad at me).
So everyone go listen to what they like. Just, don't take the attitude that because they disagree with you they must be ignorant or stupid. |
Lousyreeds1...Serious question...Do you feel that there are any criteria which separate "sound" from "music"? For example: how about a collage of random sound snippets, which is how some of your (___?) music sounds to me. If this is "music" could not the same be said of an assembly of sounds created by technical difficulties of a recording playback system? How do you distinguish music from sound?
To be fair I ought to offer my own answer to the question.
I have summarized my view by "I like music if I can hum it". Going further, it is "music" if it makes me *want* to hum it. Indeed, sometimes a catchy tune gets going around in your head, and you can't stop humming it! "Music" triggers a special reaction in the mind whereas "sound" is merely heard. Your mind is different from mine, so what is "music" to you may be "sound" to me. Note that my definition does not consider whether the sound has been deliberately composed by someone. |
Brownsfan...Following "quit after Peter and the Wolf" I ought to have put a :-). An exaggeration of course, but you get my drift.
Seurat...Yes, those four notes, by themselves, are strongly rhythmic, but they do have tone, and are answered, in matching rhythm, by four more notes of different tone, leading into a development. Taken as a whole there is a melody.
I guess I have stirred up enough discussion for a while. I will probably be hearing modern music each week at the same time while I wait in the car for my wife to teach her Yoga class. The classical music station seems to reserve this particular time slot for modern music.
When I was a kid my mother told me to eat my peas. "Just try a few" she said. "You will learn to like them".
I still hate peas!
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Today's local newspaper reports that the Boston Symphony Orchestra, and particularly their summer festival, Tanglewood, in Western Massachusetts is in dire financial straits. The new musical director, James Levine, has redirected the program towards more contemporary music, and we are seeing the result. One concert, Schoenberg's "intense and difficult" Gurrelieder saw 300 musicians playing to a mostly empty house. Things are so bad that the volunteers who staff the Tanglewood concerts are being required to "contribute" $75.
Nothing that a little Mozart couldn't cure!
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Marakanetz...Interestingly most of the Tanglewood audience seems to be from NYC and adjacent NJ. |
Ah!...Now I understand why I can't appreciate contemporary music. With Mozart even the wine and cheese is optional. |
