geoffkait,
Speaking of Resistance…..Oh, never mind. I'm practicing my admirable restraint.
Tim
Speaking of Resistance…..Oh, never mind. I'm practicing my admirable restraint.
Tim
Again the topic of weight of amps
I see this has been covered but not recently.
I have had a few amps in the 100+ pound range.
I liked them enormously but I am in a small space and am tired of dealing with these behemoths when I need to move them around and the real estate they take up. They were all wonderful in their way and I would like to have kept them but for their immobility. But can one find true love after such heavy weights with a feather weight 55 pounder?
Have technological advances in 2019 made such a thing possible? I had a pass 350.8 which I loved but you can't keep a Stonehenge rock in an apartment living room.
I have had a few amps in the 100+ pound range.
I liked them enormously but I am in a small space and am tired of dealing with these behemoths when I need to move them around and the real estate they take up. They were all wonderful in their way and I would like to have kept them but for their immobility. But can one find true love after such heavy weights with a feather weight 55 pounder?
Have technological advances in 2019 made such a thing possible? I had a pass 350.8 which I loved but you can't keep a Stonehenge rock in an apartment living room.
91 responses Add your response
Perhaps.... @noble100 "There’s been very good class D amps on the market for at least the last 5 years, maybe longer...."I owned NC1200 amplifiers and while they sounded ok, I also owned three sets of conventional Class A or AB amplifiers at the time that I liked better. A couple of reviewers have mentioned traits that I heard with those Class D amplifiers (i.e., read the Mono & Stereo review of the Kalugas) and I ultimately couldn't live with them. The bass sounded good at first but it was unnaturally over-damped and not what I hear from live music. The bass from my Class A Claytons sound way better to me and even better defined without the truncated over-damping. I will only speak to the Class D amplifiers I have owned but they are among the amps you listed as "very good." Back to transformers, I am currently having some amps built and they will have large Plitron low noise toroids. From what I hear, Plitron has the noise issue mostly worked out on their low-noise version transformers. The amplifier designer also uses heavy metal plates and damped stand-offs to mount the transformers so...fingers crossed. My Claytons have two large toroids in each monoblock and they are pretty quiet so I guess I am lucky. |
geoffkait:"Are you out of mind?" Hello geoffkait, Yes, I am out of mind. Because you failed to recognize the subtlety of my admirable restraint. I'm not mad at you, just a bit disappointed. I either need you to be at the top of your game or I need to rely on the moderator letting me slide. I got lucky. Please dust yourself off, focus on precision which we both know allows for a larger margin of error, climb back onto that saddle and ride like the wind! Thank you, Tim |
For < 60 lbs or so I can recommend the Bryston 4B3 and Valvet A4 Mk II monos (review forthcoming for both). The Bryston has more than enough power for most people and while the Valvet is only 55w, it sounds equally dynamic with a reasonable load, and it has the magical liquidity of Class A. Depending on your speakers it should be plenty for an apartment. On Class D I have heard them sound pretty good but it is just a matter of taste and maybe even physiology. I’m still fairly convinced that different people react differently to the unique characteristics, and for some it just sounds unnatural. For me my most recent exposure was the Bel Canto Black and while it was impressively quiet and clear, the instrumental textures still didn’t feel completely natural to me. (I’m a violinist and my wife is an oboist.) If it sounds fantastic to you that’s great, but I wouldn’t assume it does for everyone in every system and with all music, and these constant debates to the contrary get rather tiresome... Cheers, TAWW |
First question is why one would need to move power amps other than when they are first installed....can't think of any good reason, but you could always invest in some amp stands with casters. I tend to prefer Class A and Class B with big power supplies, so I have four amps over 100 lbs. in use (and another backup that is only about 70 lbs.) As I almost never need to move them, the weight is never an issue. Having said that, the power amp in my main system right now is a tube amp that weighs only about 50 lbs. - maybe that is a way you could go.... |
wspohn First question is why one would need to move power amps other than when they are first installed....can’t think of any good reason, but you could always invest in some amp stands with casters. >>>>Eggs 🍳 ackley! Which is why the very first thing you should do when you install power amps is to isolate the big honking transformers from the chassis by removing the bolts and placing the transformers on cork or some viscoelastic material, thus turning them into constrained layer dampers. |
An amp chassis that has proper mass and weight, ime, has better resolve of details, based on minimizing acoustic and mechanical resonance and vibration. A perfect example is the application of Dynamat extreme to the top lid, sides and bottom of the chassis ( internally ), and also an application of silicon sealant to capacitors, and, some other components. Night and day improvement. Saw a video of the Elac Alchemy amplifier, by it's designer, Peter Madnick. I can only imagine the sonic improvement of what another $500. worth of chassis weight and mass would allow that amplifier to develop into. Enjoy ! MrD. |
The weight and size of Class D is indeed appealing. So I tried a pair pf PS Audio M700's for my new basement system. I thought they sounded nice. Then to compare , I lugged my Classe CA-2300 downstairs. There was no comparison, to me. I sent the M700's back and got the PSAudio BHK-250. It is worth its weight, again to me. thanks, Ken |
Hello mitch2, I remember we've discussed your experiences before with very good quality class D amps, I think you had the Acoustic Image Atsahs using Hypex NCore 1200 power modules if I recall correctly. I think you liked the idea of their small size, light weight, low heat and being so efficient you could leave them on 24/7. You thought they sounded very good but thought your class A Clayton M-300 mono-blocks sounded better. It's interesting that you mentioned that you thought the bass on your Mola Mola Kalugas (not Acoustic Imagery Atsahs?) was unnaturally overdamped and not what you hear on live music. You consider the bass from the class A Claytons more natural and better refined since they didn't have this truncated quality. I think I understand your meaning of truncated bass, which is bass that lacks the natural decay of deep bass tones when heard live. Please let me know if I'm correct. I've also been trying to determine why you perceive this truncated bass quality on your class D amps but I don't on my D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks. I know my amps are very good but, having only read reviews on the performance of the Atsahs and Kalugas, I believe it's safe to rule out the very slim to no possibility that my amps outperform either of those. I understand that the generally very high damping factors of class D amps could be the cause of your perceived bass truncation. However, I've thought of a few alternative possibilities that may also explain our class D bass perception discrepancy that I'd like your thoughts on: 1. The music we play. I mainly listen to electronic and acoustic rock, blues and jazz and very little classical music. I perceive the detailed decay on bass notes on all of my music that's important for giving a sense of the venue but understand that it's often even more important and appreciated that it's natural to listeners of classical music. I don't know the typical types of music you listen to. 2. The speakers we use. I use large 6'x 2' 3-way Magnepan 2.7QR dipole planar-magnetic panel speakers that each have a 625 square inch bass section that produces very accurate, detailed and 'fast' bass response. The combination of my class D amps having damping factors >1,000, and outputting 1,200 watts each into the 4 ohm Magnepans, resulted in the best bass performance I'd ever heard from these speakers. The bass was incredibly accurate, detailed and fast but the 2.7's have a rated bass extension of only 34 Hz +/- 3 dBs and I was also a bit disappointed with their deep bass impact. In an effort to improve my system's bass extension, dynamics and impact I added an Audio Kinesis Swarm bass system. Here's a link to an Absolute Sound review that describes its effects on my system and 23' x16' room very well: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I added the Swarm fairly soon after adding the class D D-Sonic amps to my system so it somewhat complicates my evaluation of how much the class D amps and the Swarm contributed to my vastly improved overall bass response. The Swarm consists of four relatively small (1' x 1' x 24" ported cabinets, each weighing 44lbs with a 10" aluminum long-through 4 ohm driver) all positioned in a distributed bass array configuration in the room and all powered by a 1K watt class AB amp that also controls the volume, crossover frequency and phase on all four subs operating in mono. I run the 2.7s full-range and the four Swarm subs are all run in mono, in-phase,at about 45% volume and at a crossover frequency typically set between 40 and 50 Hz. This means the majority of the bass in my system and room from 20-50 Hz is actually produced by a traditional linear class AB amp and traditional cone drivers with only a minor bass contribution, perhaps only on the leading edge of bass tones, between 34-50 Hz being powered by class D amps powering very accurate, detailed and fast planar-dynamic dipole panels. I definitely know that the net effect of this combination is what I consider near state of the art bass response performance throughout my entire room; accurate, detailed, powerful, with a sense of ease and unlimited bass capacity,smooth and natural bass with extension down to 20 Hz, powerful dynamics and bass that is felt as well as heard. My current conclusion is that the reason your perception that the class D amps you auditioned in your system truncated the bass and I did not perceive the same bass truncation is likely due to one or more of the following causes: 1. I spent a limited amount of time listening to purely class D bass reproduced solely on my main speakers since I fairly quickly added the four sub Swarm bass system which is actually class AB bass reproduced mainly on conventional cone subs that do not tend to truncate the bass. This is closely related to "#2 The speakers we use" I described earlier above. I don't know what type of speakers you use in your system or whether you utilize subs but I now believe it's very possible that class D does truncate the bass somewhat. It's just more noticeable on certain types of music and disguised to a degree when non-class D powered subs are utilized. In any case, some interesting questions will still remain such as what would the results be if the Swarm used a class D amp? and what results are achieved when utilizing self-powered subs utilizing class D amps? So, that's my current viewpoint and I'm interested in your and others thoughts on this matter. I'm definitely not going to question your decision that you prefer the sound of the excellent Clayton M-300 amps in your system more than the class D Kalugas or Atsahs, even though I know they're both excellent amps, too. Now you're having new amps built with custom Plitron toroidal transformers? Can you give more specifics on the new amps being built and your speakers? Thanks, Tim |
Class D - just like most Class A & AB tube amps are really dependent upon good circuit design, quality parts and implementation. There are some that sound very ordinary and others that sound fantastic. Never rely on the words of paid reviewers to determine which are which. Audition is the only way to tell for yourself... and feedback from trusted users here in this forum can be an invaluable tool as well. But the truth is some designers just get it and their products are better than others. Seek out the products from designers who have proven track records of accomplishment in the Audio field. I have been listening to a Class D amp for 5 years now and have been extremely satisfied. But mine amp is also the product of a designer who has decades of experience and is himself a true music lover with an ear for real sound. Point being - don’t discount a properly designed Class D option. |
I built my amplifier system with a separate power supply and separate monoblock final stages with big radio station transmitting tubes and a separate SET with its own separate power supply and, of course a separate preamplifier. If I had built it into one cabinet I could never manage the weight of it all even with my years of amateur bodybuilding. In addition, if something needs to be repaired or I figure out an improvement in the design, it is much easier to take out one chassis and fix it. |
When you're in a small city apartment you are sometimes moving things around and cleaning(dust dust dust) you've got this humungous thing just sitting there. No matter how splendid it sounds it's just plain awkward. I remember when somebody asked generally what most one wanted for their system and somebody replied 'a bigger room.' |
I bought an EAR 890 amp in 2006 and used it with an EAR 864 for a two years. It sounded forward and bright on my Legacy Focus speakers. With a custom high end pre-amp the 890 was rather thin sounding. I replaced the pre-amp as well. I moved the 890 to my Legacy Signature IIIs. This was a great match. The probable reason-the Class A 890 doesn't control 6 - 12" woofers very well but has no problem with a 1 ohm higher bass rated speaker with 6 - 10" woofers. Matching the amp to the speakers is critical for most tube amps. My future may include an RM-200 MK11 or a VAC 200IQ. Depends on my future speaker (Vimberg Tonda, Von Schwiekert VR-55, Lumenwhite Kyara). |
@fleschler, the RM-200 Mk.2 is an unusual tube amp, not behaving like a "normal" one. It has a lower-than-usual output impedance for a tube design (John Atkinson’s bench test results included in Fremer’s review of the amp), so interacts less with the impedance profile of the speaker. And whereas traditional tube amps lose power as loudspeaker impedance is lowered, the RM-200 provides 100w/ch into both 8 ohm and 4 ohm loads. It’s a good choice for he who wants traditional tube strengths without tube weaknesses. Not an overly-warm, soft-bass sounding tube amp. Or a bright, forward one, for that matter. And it weighs only 40 lbs. End of sales pitch ;-) . |
@noble100 I will do my best to respond to your questions. I think you had the Acoustic Image Atsahs using Hypex NCore 1200 power modules if I recall correctly. I think you liked the idea of their small size, light weight, low heat and being so efficient you could leave them on 24/7. You thought they sounded very good but thought your class A Clayton M-300 mono-blocks sounded better.You are exactly correct. I can add that at the time I also owned Lamm M1.2 Reference monos and an SMc Audio Signature DNA-2 LAE stereo amplifier and after a lengthy comparison I decided that I liked all three better than the Atsahs. I mentioned the Mono & Stereo review of the Kalugas because they use the same NC1200 amplifier board (with some modifications to the PS and a few other internal do-dads) and the reviewer does a good job of describing what I heard with the Atsahs. If I had liked the Atsahs, I certainly would have kept them and if I thought I could correct the issues I had with those amps by buying Kalugas or even Theta’s Promeatheus (NC1200 with linear PS) then I would have already done that. You consider the bass from the class A Claytons more natural and better refined since they didn’t have this truncated quality. I think I understand your meaning of truncated bass, which is bass that lacks the natural decay of deep bass tones when heard live. Please let me know if I’m correct.Yes - correct, plus the high damping seemed to take away from the fullness and bloom I hear from live music. The Claytons have those qualities plus well-defined bass that make it possible to distinguish the different instruments providing the bass (i.e., not one-note bass). I’ve also been trying to determine why you perceive this truncated bass quality on your class D amps but I don’t on my D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks. I know my amps are very good but, having only read reviews on the performance of the Atsahs and Kalugas, I believe it’s safe to rule out the very slim to no possibility that my amps outperform either of those.I long ago gave up prescribing what is "good," "better," or "best," based on what I read, marketing hype, and/or what something costs. Bruno did an excellent job of marketing his modules as being the "best" and was able to charge many times more than the going rate for Class D modules based on a combination of marketing and some good reviews. Some things I have been interested in following are whether most of the early NC1200 adopters still own their amplifiers and why those amplifiers (i.e., Kalugas) never achieved their promise as standard-bearers for amplification, regardless of class. I’ve thought of a few alternative possibilities that may also explain our class D bass perception discrepancy that I’d like your thoughts on:Rock, acoustic rock, some popular, and blues with a touch of jazz but no classical - similar to you. 2. The speakers we use. I use large 6’x 2’ 3-way Magnepan 2.7QR dipole planar-magnetic panel speakers that each have a 625 square inch bass section that produces very accurate, detailed and ’fast’ bass response. The combination of my class D amps having damping factors >1,000, and outputting 1,200 watts each into the 4 ohm Magnepans, resulted in the best bass performance I’d ever heard from these speakers.Aerial LR5s which are acoustic suspension (sealed box) speakers with dual 9-inch woofers per side. They are excellent down to about 40 Hz, below which I augment with two Aerial SW-12 subs adding only the very low bass below 40-45 Hz. I added an Audio Kinesis Swarm bass system. Here’s a link to an Absolute Sound review that describes its effects on my system and 23’ x16’ room very well:IMO, the Swarm system may indeed be the reason you like your bass so well and I certainly believe it probably sounds excellent. The bass in my room improved significantly when I added the second sub and switched from the bass reflex Aerial Model 9s (which sometimes added too much and too boomy bass) to the more accurate sounding acoustic suspension LR5s. I like Duke’s concept for the Swarm and would like to try adding one, if not two, more SW-12s in my room. My current conclusion is that the reason your perception that the class D amps you auditioned in your system truncated the bass and I did not perceive the same bass truncation is likely due to one or more of the following causes:I suspect this is the reason. Now you’re having new amps built with custom Plitron toroidal transformers? Can you give more specifics on the new amps being built and your speakers?I discussed my speakers above and the new amplifiers will be SMc Audio DNA-1 Signature monos using new boards and other very recent improvements Steve and Patrick have incorporated into their design. The amplifiers will be almost a complete rebuild with mostly all new parts, new grounding concept, high-quality Lundahl transformers, and other proprietary improvements. As good as the other amplifiers I have owned sounded (including the excellent Claytons and Lamms) I have wanted to merge the best of each of them and based on the excellent work SMc Audio did on my preamplifier, I am trusting them to finally solve this dilemma for me, or at least get me close enough that I can quit looking at amplifiers. |
@noble100 I find this review of the Kalugas by Audiodrom to be interesting in that they seem to hear some of the same stuff that I heard from the Atsahs but they have different take-always than in the Mono & Stereo review and believe the Kalugas to be reference caliber. http://www.audiodrom.net/en/power-amplifiers/detail/33-power-amplifiers/556-mola-mola-kaluga A couple of quotes from the review, Spatial presentation of the Kaluga monos is enhanced by excellent separation and focus, and brought down a little by slightly subdued ambience – it is as if some part of the spatiality was encoded in the harmonics that are suppressed by NuCore architecture. I could hear the soft ambient echoes of a cello playing in a church, for example, but the trailing off was unnecessarily fast to my ears. However, the width and depth of the macroimage was excellent and images were locked with surgical precision and authority.The subdued ambience thing is my main downside to NC1200, even more so than the bass, which I could live with by using subs for the lower frequencies. Below is an interesting observation they make about the bass, The dark side of the Mola Mola Kaluga’s bass? Due to no overhang and smear it sounds different from what we are used to. Thus it actually may sound ‘less developed’ to some ears. The audiophile desire to hear the things ‘as they are recorded’ conflicts with the audiophile desire to hear the things ‘as I like them to hear’. Sorry guys, the Mola Mola Kaluga is the former case. |
Tim, I said the RM-200 is "really nothing special"? Au contraire! There is much more to the amp than what I wrote above, as a reading of the review by Fremer and Atkinson in Stereophile will illuminate. The "sales pitch" crack was made in reference to past comments by someone (I don't hold grudges, he's entitled to his opinion) about my too often mentioning of the amp. I like to bring to peoples attention over-looked products, like the Eminent Technology LFT-8b loudspeaker, another tremendous bargain. |
mitch2, Thank you very much for your interesting and informative responses. Your, and some reviewers, mentioning the whole issue of truncated bass notes on some class D amps was new to me. After rethinking my experiences with multiple class D amps in my system, however, I completely understand this perception and believe the exceptionally high damping factors of class D amps may be the culprit. In retrospect, I certainly never heard my Magnepan 2.7QR produce the type of bass that they did when powered solely by my very high powered class D mono-blocks with damping factors >1,000. I remember enjoying the tight bass but have to now agree it sounded a bit tauter than natural bass heard live. Good luck with your new amp rebuilds. Thanks, Tim |
@larrykell I said that I couldn't physically handle a 185 lb. amp. My current listening room floor can handle a 7.5+ earthquake let alone a few hundred pounds of equipment. My 1993 constructed prior home had a similar custom 6" slab with 2' exterior footings, 1' interior footings, 8" plate with 6" staggered studs every 8"- no damage from the 1994 6.9 Northridge earthquake. |
@fleschler I guess I misunderstood you and thought you said we should be worried that a floor couldn’t hold that kind of weight. I put my Gryphon on those little felt furniture pads so that I can slide it around. It doesn’t get moved often but I can slide it a few feet, or across the room, by myself. When I needed to get the amp moved, I paid my building guys to help move the thing. That’s an advantage to living in New York City. Yes, it’s a pain to move such a heavy amp, but I hope to never have to do that again. It’s a lifetime amp for me, one I expect to keep for decades. I’m glad you live in a solid structure in California. I never could get used to earthquakes and I went through two small ones when living in LA. I guess I’ll take my chances with hurricanes over earthquakes. It’s always something. |
I remember enjoying the tight bass but have to now agree it sounded a bit tauter than natural bass heard live.^^ This. Overdamped speakers have been a common problem in high end audio for some decades now as most solid state amps overdamp the speakers for which they are intended. No speaker made needs more than 20:1; when damping factors are excessively higher the bass is 'tighter' than real life. To me tight bass is a coloration of sorts; when there is tight bass, bass definition suffers and so does the wallop. |
Hello atmosphere, I've only become recently aware of the consequences of overdamping on bass performance. Thanks for your additional useful info. Like I previously stated, this makes a lot of sense to me when thinking of my experiences with class D amplification. As I'm sure you're aware, class D amps typically have very high damping factors, my current D-Sonic mono-blocks are >1,000. I always thought high damping factors were a positive factor but now understand it's probably best in moderation. Luckily, I utilize the same Swarm 4-sub bass system as you that powers all 4 subs with a 1K watt class AB amp that I perceive as having a lower damping factor. Do you think I'm correct in assuming the high powered 1,200 watt class D monos with damping factors >1,000, that power my Magnepan 2.7QR main speakers, could be beneficial on the leading edges of bass notes and, combined with the more natural bass note decays reproduced by the Swarm/class AB amp, provide the best of both worlds with a more balanced and natural overall bass presentation? I guess since it sounds like that to me, that's what's important and I answered my own question. But I just wanted to know if this makes sense to you or if I'm just fooling myself. Thanks, Tim |
Do you think I'm correct in assuming the high powered 1,200 watt class D monos with damping factors >1,000, that power my Magnepan 2.7QR main speakers, could be beneficial on the leading edges of bass notes and, combined with the more natural bass note decays reproduced by the Swarm/class AB amp, provide the best of both worlds with a more balanced and natural overall bass presentation?@noble100 If you wanted to point to a weakness of class D amps- this is very likely it. To get better specs, class D amps benefit from faster switching output transistors. But these output devices have a much lower ON resistance (GaNs are typically 60milliohms or less) resulting in an insanely low output impedance- and so higher and higher damping factors as the technology evolves. I'm very unconvinced that ultra high damping factors are good for any loudspeaker. I'm sure that using the Swarm does help you though- as getting bass off of the Maggies will reduce Doppler Effect distortion. |
Hello atmosphere, Running my Maggies solely with a pair of 1,200 watt class D amps and damping factors over 1,000 produces a tautness in their bass, down to their 35 Hz limit, that I have ever experienced with any other amp I've used, mainly high powered class AB amps. The taut bass actually sounds good but it is too tight for natural. I now better understand the effects of ultra high damping factors on speakers and agree with you that it's best avoided. Thanks for your help, Tim |