Again the topic of weight of amps

     When threads request equipment recommendations like this one, it seems that readers for some unexplainable, unhelpful, strange and annoying reason, often consider these types of threads as invitations to just blindly name whatever gear they happen to use. 
     An example? miketuason reads the OP's request for a high quality, good performing amp in the more reasonable 55 pound range and he inexplicably gets the urge to post:
 "I have the McIntosh MC601 monoblocks 600watts, only 95lbs each." 
     ONLY 95 pounds? What? EACH? What the F? Why would anyone feel the need to post this?  How exactly is this relevant? Or helpful? Doesn't this poster realize his amps are roughly double the requested weight.....EACH!  Why did he feel the need and take the time to post at all, right?

Tim

Hello roxy1927,

     You’re a perfect candidate for class D. Here’s an excellent pair of D-Sonic M3a-600-M mono-blocks for $2,150/pair, 800 watts at 8 ohms, 1,350 at 4 ohms,brand new, 3 year warranty, rca and xlr inputs,a 30-day free in-home trial period and 10 pounds each. Check out the specs, I think you’ll be surprised.

https://www.d-sonic.com/products/m3a-600m-mono-amplifier-per-channel.html

     I’ve been using the earlier model of these, the M3-600-M monos for about the last 4 years on a pair of Magnepan 2.7QRs and they sound very similar to my previous 85 pound Aragon class AB stereo amp but with better bass, a quieter background, more detail, better dynamics and an even smoother mid-range and treble. Mine are excellent amps and I believe these newer ones are even better. 
     They use so little juice I just leave them on 24/7. Of course, they’re not going to sound as good as your Pass 350.8 but they both combined weigh about 110 pounds less and they run much cooler. You may want to read some

Tim

     Encouraging the OP to not at least give a good class D amp a free in-home audition for a month is just willful ignorance, akin to encouraging not hiring the most intelligent and competent black job applicant because of their skin color.  

     Failure to consciously keep an open mind and failing to evaluate all viable amp solutions based exclusively on their performance merits, not only demonstrates a lack of confidence, mental weakness, a lack of intellectual curiosity and willful ignorance, these mental afflictions also are capable of preventing the OP from discovering an ideal amp solution.

Tim

clearthink: "Class d is ok for subwoofer amplifiers at least until you compare them to something better such as Bryston or Pass."

jsautter: "I agree with clearthink on the issue of Class D amps. Havent heard one yet that I have liked."

Hello clearthink and jsautter,

It’s funny how outdated you both sound. There’s been very good class D amps on the market for at least the last 5 years, maybe longer, such as Bel Canto, Merrill Audio, D-Sonic, Red Dragon, Wyred 4 Sound, Channel Islands, any of the DIY amp kits using the Hypex NCore power modules and others I’m probably forgetting. You both obviously just lack the experience of listening to a good class D amp. After all, you don’t know what you don’t know, right?
It’s just a shame that, with no experience listening to good class D amps, you’re both willing to spread outdated and no longer accurate information. It is true that they all generally have exceptionally good bass response, when compared to the other traditional amp types, since they typically have very high damping factors.
What you both apparently don’t realize however, is that good class D amps generally share other qualities such as very low distortion and background noise levels which results in very high levels of detail, very high power and dynamic range capacity, very neutral sonic presentations with nothing added or subtracted from the inputted signals as well as midrange and treble responses that are detailed, accurate and natural without being harsh or bright.
The above is an accurate description of what I’ve experienced owning and listening to good class D amps both in my own system and many others I’ve listened to. Hopefully, both of you will be able to listen to a good class D amp soon to update and broaden your knowledge and experience.
Oh yeah, I just realized I almost forgot to mention all the other non-sound quality benefits of class D amps, which are relative affordability, small size, low weight, high electrical efficiency, low electricity consumption and low operating temps.

Tim

bdp24:
"Tim deParavicini of EAR-Yoshino says he can predict the bass sound an amplifier produces by looking at the size of it’s transformers."

Good morning,
    If Tim deParavicini of EAR-Yoshino is as smart and knowledgeable as I think he is and heard a good class D amp in the last 5 years, I doubt he still believes or states that.  I believe that's an old quote he made back in the 1990s referring to conventional tube and solid state amps at that time, not more recent class D amps.

Tim

Hello geoffkait,

    I agree, I don't buy into the theory that the transformers have to be large, either.  The primary reason class D amps have such good bass response is their typical high damping factors, often >1,000, which is directly related to how well an amp is able to control the movement of bass drivers and panels.
    The other bugaboo often mentioned by some is the switch mode power supply (smps) used by some class D amps.   All the class D amps I own have typical linear amp power supplies using toroidal transformers but that's just a coincidence and not intentional, I know from personal experience the smps performs just as well as a power supply on the amps I've heard.

Tim

clearthink:
"Noble 100,What is funny is how you are convinced you know what I have listened to when in fact you have no idea what I have listened to and simply can not believe that what you like is not what others like and that many people think Class D has a long way to go before it can equal the consistent, reliable, superior performance of most conventional designs and I base that observation and conclusion upon listening to a variety of Class D amplifiers."

Hello clearthink,
    Okay, fair enough. Why don't you enlighten us on some of the class D amps you've listened to and their supposed specific shortcomings in your opinion?  
    I realize all amp types have their specific strengths and weaknesses,
it's beneficial to match one's amp with one's speakers and vice versa for optimum performance and an individual's choice of an amp is often a subjective one based on perceived sound qualities. I know these factors were responsible for my choice of which amps to utilize in my system. I expect, encourage and prefer others to make their specific amp choices based on these same factors.  
    Sure, I've encouraged others to consider auditioning good class D amps in their systems by accurately and honestly describing how well they've performed in my system. But big deal, so what? and sue me!
    It's all been, and will continue to be, solid and truthful advice given with my sincere intention that it may be helpful to others. Of course, whether they follow my advice is beyond my control and, therefore, also my concern.


Tim

clearthink:
"Noble 100,What is funny is how you are convinced you know what I have listened to when in fact you have no idea what I have listened to and simply can not believe that what you like is not what others like and that many people think Class D has a long way to go before it can equal the consistent, reliable, superior performance of most conventional designs and I base that observation and conclusion upon listening to a variety of Class D amplifiers."

Hello clearthink,
     Okay, fair enough.  Why don't you enlighten us on some of the class D amps you've listened to and their supposed specific shortcomings in your opinion?  
     I realize all amp types have their specific strengths and weaknesses, 
it's beneficial to match one's amp with one's speakers and vice versa for optimum performance and an individual's choice of an amp is often a subjective one based on perceived sound qualities.  I know these factors were responsible for my choice of which amps to utilize in my system.  I expect, encourage and prefer others to make their specific amp choices based on these same factors.  
     Sure, I've encouraged others to consider auditioning good class D amps in their systems by accurately and honestly describing how well they've performed in my system.  But big deal, so what? and sue me! 
     It's all been, and will continue to be, solid and truthful advice given with my sincere intention that it may be helpful to others.  Of course, whether they follow my advice is beyond my control and, therefore, also my concern.


Tim
      
     

Hello bdp24,
     Yes, I've heard about Tim deParavicini's obsession with his hand wound transformers but haven't had the pleasure of listening to one of his amps.  I'd  be very interested on his thoughts on the design and performance of  the latest crop of good class D amps. 
     Or a discussion between a top tube and ss amp designer like him and a top class D amp designer like Bruno Putzeys.  For example, Bruno claims he can build a class D amp to sound however he wants.  I know nothing about amp design of any type, but I'd be very interested in hearing them discuss this, especially when the subject of transformers comes up.

Tim 

geoffkait,

     Speaking of Resistance…..Oh, never mind.  I'm practicing my admirable restraint.

Tim

geoffkait,

Active resistance, to Dopey Donny the Orange Racist Baby. Woops, there goes my restraint.

geoffkait:"Are you out of mind?"

Hello geoffkait,
    Yes, I am out of mind. Because you failed to recognize the subtlety of my admirable restraint. I'm not mad at you, just a bit disappointed. I either need you to be at the top of your game or I need to rely on the moderator letting me slide.  I got lucky.

    Please dust yourself off, focus on precision which we both know allows for a larger margin of error, climb back onto that saddle and ride like the wind!

Thank you,
    Tim

Hello mitch2,
    I remember we've discussed your experiences before with very good quality class D amps, I think you had the Acoustic Image Atsahs using Hypex NCore 1200 power modules if I recall correctly. I think you liked the idea of their small size, light weight, low heat and being so efficient you could leave them on 24/7. You thought they sounded very good but thought your class A Clayton M-300 mono-blocks sounded better.
    It's interesting that you mentioned that you thought the bass on your Mola Mola Kalugas (not Acoustic Imagery Atsahs?) was unnaturally overdamped and not what you hear on live music. You consider the bass from the class A Claytons more natural and better refined since they didn't have this truncated quality. I think I understand your meaning of truncated bass, which is bass that lacks the natural decay of deep bass tones when heard live. Please let me know if I'm correct.
      I've also been trying to determine why you perceive this truncated bass quality on your class D amps but I don't on my D-Sonic M3-600-M mono-blocks. I know my amps are very good but, having only read reviews on the performance of the Atsahs and Kalugas, I believe it's safe to rule out the very slim to no possibility that my amps outperform either of those.
    I understand that the generally very high damping factors of class D amps could be the cause of your perceived bass truncation. However, I've thought of a few alternative possibilities that may also explain our class D bass perception discrepancy that I'd like your thoughts on:

1. The music we play. I mainly listen to electronic and acoustic rock, blues and jazz and very little classical music. I perceive the detailed decay on bass notes on all of my music that's important for giving a sense of the venue but understand that it's often even more important and appreciated that it's natural to listeners of classical music. I don't know the typical types of music you listen to.


2. The speakers we use. I use large 6'x 2' 3-way Magnepan 2.7QR dipole planar-magnetic panel speakers that each have a 625 square inch bass section that produces very accurate, detailed and 'fast' bass response. The combination of my class D amps having damping factors >1,000, and outputting 1,200 watts each into the 4 ohm Magnepans, resulted in the best bass performance I'd ever heard from these speakers.
    The bass was incredibly accurate, detailed and fast but the 2.7's have a rated bass extension of only 34 Hz +/- 3 dBs and I was also a bit disappointed with their deep bass impact. In an effort to improve my system's bass extension, dynamics and impact I added an Audio Kinesis Swarm bass system. Here's a link to an Absolute Sound review that describes its effects on my system and 23' x16' room very well:

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/

    I added the Swarm fairly soon after adding the class D D-Sonic amps to my system so it somewhat complicates my evaluation of how much the class D amps and the Swarm contributed to my vastly improved overall bass response. The Swarm consists of four relatively small (1' x 1' x 24" ported cabinets, each weighing 44lbs with a 10" aluminum long-through 4 ohm driver) all positioned in a distributed bass array configuration in the room and all powered by a 1K watt class AB amp that also controls the volume, crossover frequency and phase on all four subs operating in mono.  
    I run the 2.7s full-range and the four Swarm subs are all run in mono, in-phase,at about 45% volume and at a crossover frequency typically set between 40 and 50 Hz. This means the majority of the bass in my system and room from 20-50 Hz is actually produced by a traditional linear class AB amp and traditional cone drivers with only a minor bass contribution, perhaps only on the leading edge of bass tones, between 34-50 Hz being powered by class D amps powering very accurate, detailed and fast planar-dynamic dipole panels.
    I definitely know that the net effect of this combination is what I consider near state of the art bass response performance throughout my entire room; accurate, detailed, powerful, with a sense of ease and unlimited bass capacity,smooth and natural bass with extension down to 20 Hz, powerful dynamics and bass that is felt as well as heard.
    My current conclusion is that the reason your perception that the class D amps you auditioned in your system truncated the bass and I did not perceive the same bass truncation is likely due to one or more of the following causes:

1. I spent a limited amount of time listening to purely class D bass reproduced solely on my main speakers since I fairly quickly added the four sub Swarm bass system which is actually class AB bass reproduced mainly on conventional cone subs that do not tend to truncate the bass. This is closely related to "#2 The speakers we use" I described earlier above.
      I don't know what type of speakers you use in your system or whether you utilize subs but I now believe it's very possible that class D does truncate the bass somewhat. It's just more noticeable on certain types of music and disguised to a degree when non-class D powered subs are utilized. In any case, some interesting questions will still remain such as what would the results be if the Swarm used a class D amp? and what results are achieved when utilizing self-powered subs utilizing class D amps?
    So, that's my current viewpoint and I'm interested in your and others thoughts on this matter.

    I'm definitely not going to question your decision that you prefer the sound of the excellent Clayton M-300 amps in your system more than the class D Kalugas or Atsahs, even though I know they're both excellent amps, too.
    Now you're having new amps built with custom Plitron toroidal transformers? Can you give more specifics on the new amps being built and your speakers?

Thanks,
  Tim

Hello bdp24,

     No offense, but that's a pretty weak sales pitch. I understood your pitch as:
 It's really nothing special but it only weighs 40 pounds.

Tim  

mitch2,

     Thank you very much for your interesting and informative responses.  Your, and some reviewers, mentioning the whole issue of truncated bass notes on some class D amps was new to me. After rethinking my experiences with multiple class D amps in my system, however, I completely understand this perception and believe the exceptionally high damping factors of class D amps may be the culprit.  In retrospect, I certainly never heard my Magnepan 2.7QR produce the type of bass that they did when powered solely by my very high powered class D mono-blocks with damping factors >1,000.  I remember enjoying the tight bass but have to now agree it sounded a bit tauter than natural bass heard live.
     Good luck with your new amp rebuilds.

Thanks,
  Tim

Hello atmosphere,

     I've only become recently aware of the consequences of overdamping on bass performance. Thanks for your additional useful info.
    Like I previously stated, this makes a lot of sense to me when thinking of my experiences with class D amplification.  As I'm sure you're aware, class D amps typically have very high damping factors, my current D-Sonic mono-blocks are >1,000. I always thought high damping factors were a positive factor but now understand it's probably best in moderation.
     Luckily, I utilize the same Swarm 4-sub bass system as you that powers all 4 subs with a 1K watt class AB amp that I perceive as having a lower damping factor.  Do you think I'm correct in assuming the high powered 1,200 watt class D monos with damping factors >1,000, that power my Magnepan 2.7QR main speakers, could be beneficial on the leading edges of bass notes and, combined with the more natural bass note decays reproduced by the Swarm/class AB amp, provide the best of both worlds with a more balanced and natural overall bass presentation? 
     I guess since it sounds like that to me,  that's what's important and I answered my own question.  But I just wanted to know if this makes sense to you or if I'm just fooling myself.

Thanks,
 Tim 

Hello atmosphere,

     Running my Maggies solely with a pair of 1,200 watt class D amps and damping factors over 1,000 produces a tautness in their bass, down to their 35 Hz limit, that I have ever experienced with any other amp I've used, mainly high powered class AB amps. The taut bass actually sounds good but it is too tight for natural.  I now better understand the effects of ultra high damping factors on speakers and agree with you that it's best avoided.


Thanks for your help,
          Tim