Advice and help understanding, choosing a Widebander / Single Full Range Driver speaker?

I've started a thread specific to the Cube Audio Nenuphar since this thread is general in nature and applies to all wide-bander / single driver speakers.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cube-audio-nenuphar-single-driver-speaker-10-inch-tqwt-enclos...

Hi Joe. Thanks for your feedback. You know I'll take you up on your offer when I schedule my trip, your way.

Yes, the 3.5 - 4 Watts from my 2A3 amp is more than sufficient. I'm finding the Nenuphars easy enough to drive that I'm also open to a robust build 45 amp.

Coincidently, I've been exchanging emails with Jeffrey and he will have the NA debut of  the latest version of the Horning Hybrid Eufrodite Ellipses at Axpona.

David,
I heard the Nenuphars at CAF paired with the FW SIT-3 amp (which I also have) and thought they sounded wonderful. 
You made a good choice very nice speakers. Are 3.5 watts enough to drive the speakers when you crank it up a bit?

Once you go high efficiency and SET there's no going back. lol
The offer still stands, if you're ever in NY your welcome to come over for a listen.

Joe

I also find high frequencies to be tricky with full range drivers.  It is not just the case that the top end is limited, so one does not get that bit of sparkle on top and the sense of natural note decay, that lack of top end makes the upper midrange sound ragged and peaky.  Put a tweeter on top and the sound smooths out appreciably. 

I've heard 12" and 13" full range drivers in open baffle cabinets and they have decent fullness and midbass, though lacking in deep bass, and what they need is a tweeter on top more so than a woofer below.

In back loaded horn systems with a full range driver, I often think that a tweeter might help to add a little bit of sparkle on top (not needed as much to smooth the frequency response).  

[don’t] restrict the type of music used

I’ve been running Club music for the past few hours, at high volumes for me (Avg SPL at listening position High 80s to ~ 90db)

Armin van Buuren, Kraftwerk, Biosphere, Jes, Amon Tobin, Primal Scream, The Orb, Massive Attack, Tricky/Martina, etc.

System was tested with Opeth, Deadmau5, Egyptrixx, etc. : )

Don[']t be afraid to consider higher powered SET amps (8W plus)

OR lower powered SET amps... If you have a high quality amp paired with a preamp with sufficient gain.

I'll be auditioning a pair in the next week or two.
Thanks for the update.

When you audition be sure to not let the person doing the demo restrict the type of music used. Put these single driver speakers through their paces with complex passages and music with wide dynamic swings. Dont be afraid to consider higher powered SET amps (8W plus). 

@exlibris   I now have over 550 hours on the Nenuphars and they are stunning, within the context of my system. 

Placement and some system related changes / improvements have helped enhance performance. I'll be moving from JJ to EML (SP) tubes for the Found-Music 2A3 monoblocks, by the end of the week. Other system level applications are also breaking in. 

I'll start a dedicated thread, in a few weeks, once the system is settled.

Thanks to all for your help prior to, and along the journey. 

That says a great deal.
Thank you.

@exlibris   My early findings and impressions track Srajan Ebaen's 6moons review.

I'm interested to hear how your journey turns out.  The 6Moons and AV Showrooms reviews have peaked my interest in the Cube Audio Nenuphar.

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Re-reading the thread has reinforced the wisdom and the on-point contributions shared in September and October of last year.

It's been a slow process, as expected, but with a ton of learning and growth as well as actual experience within/across portions of our hobby.

The Cube Audio Nenuphar speakers were delivered this past Wednesday and I am closing in on 100 hours of run time on them. I've been running them overnight on my solid state gear.

I also added the Grandinote Genesi Preamplifier ahead of Scott Sheaffer's Found-Music 2A3 amp. Since the Genesi is a fully balanced design, I am using a custom Cardas XLR adaptor to allow for 'correct' SE IC connections.

Jeffrey Catalano of High Water Sound has been and continues to be wonderful to work with and helped arrange an audition of the Horning Hybrid Eufrodite Ellipses through one of his clients. The audition was exceptional. The Eufrodite is a speaker I can see myself being very happy with and I am working on a follow-up audition. His client has recently added and broken in a Kuzma 4-Point 14" arm and an Air Tight Opus-1 cartridge and is getting fantastic results. 

Holger Adler of Voxativ has been tremendous as well. I am working on getting to Dallas to audition his full line. 

Axpona is a fall back option, though it may be tough for me to coordinate with my schedule.

I am also planning on a future trip to NYC/NJ to get my ears on Horning, Charney, Grandinote, etc.

@acresverde  Once the Cubes are broken in (which they are...I'm giving them longer than the 40 hours Jon Ver Halen, the Cube Audio U.S. importer, advised), and I've worked on placement/ positioning, etc. I'd love to get your opinion and feedback on them within the context of my system and room.

A MAJOR shout-out of thanks to Charles ( @charles1dad ) for his extraordinary support and guidance throughout the journey.

There are others who have helped in major ways, and I'll recognize all of you formally and express my gratitude once I get a mini-write-up organized.

The original articulated goals remain the same. To have a 'bifurcated' system. My front end through DAC remains the same. What may change is my full-range speaker choice. Horning Hybrids and Voxativ's full range 'system' or moving up the Tekton Design line are all viable options, as part of the 'two speaker' system journey.

@shkong78 Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I have had used full range speaker with 300B SET amplifiers for 4 years.

But it had lot of limitation in treble.

After I switch to Lansche 4.1, I had been happy with pristine treble that I can not get with full range.


https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis96gda-lansche-audio-no-3-floorstanding-speaker-like-new-reduce-...

This one is smaller model than mine.

But you can experience excellent treble out of plasma tweeter.

It will be very good for Jazz Vocal.

I mean 250-400 Hz  , The deficit sound pressure make sound thin
Only real horn get big help  . transmission line working just for lower
bass.

With jazz, folk, girl and guitar, they are just about perfect. Add a SET amp, it is spooky real, band is playing in the room sounding.

@seanheis1 Thanks. What I am looking for!

Midbass doesnt have to be thin. They do need a backloaded horn or transmission line for fuller sound. 

Where they actually lack is with complex music. Too much going on and they will trip over themselves.

With jazz, folk, girl and guitar, they are just about perfect. Add a SET amp, it is spooky real, band is playing in the room sounding.

But if you want a great all around jack of all trades master of none speaker that is also beautiful, buy the Sonus Faber speaker in your price range. 

The purist single driver is a dream, the have big  issues . If you ok 
without   super tweeter  , no whizzer cone. 10-12 khz is good enough.
. good without  good bass, or want to get sub, another big issues will
make sound  not good.   midbass lack, make sound thinner them need to be. i explain already in different treads,  -baffle  step https://www.trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm, 

I think I know what you are looking for. A purist single driver system driven by a SET amp with no negative feedback. That means no crossover and no whizzer, as a whizzer is basically a mechanical crossover. You are okay without a super tweeter, as extension and linearity above 5k is less important than maintaining coherence in the treble and upper mid-range.

To get this done, a 3 inch wide-band driver may be just about ideal for mids and treble. A Tabaq transmission line quarter wave type design or for bigger bass, a Frugel Horn XL back loaded horn type of design using the Alpair 10 driver.    

These are well engineered designs and are available for DIY. The commercial designers often times borrow from the DIY community...but in doing so they normally get away from the purist approach and add things like super tweeters, whizzers, baffle step correction, bass woofers, resistors, etc. 

@mlsstl  Good points. The speaker first approach is clearly preferred by most folks. In this case I did and do have a speaker in mind, though I am not sure it will end up being the final choice. 

I also know full well that this amp limits speaker choices. As you point out, this is about experimenting with a different chain and learning from it and seeing where it leads.

With respect to the Cube Audio Nenuphar, I have been in touch with the designer and he feels very comfortable pairing a 2A3 amp with it. He presented the Nenuphar at the Munich Show paired to Tektron (Italy) 2A3 and 45 amps.

I've been in touch with @almarg and Al has recommended more power, for obvious and valid reasons. Something along the lines of an 845 or 211 amp (with respect to the Nenuphar). In the case of the Found Music 2A3 amp, it is an all out effort from the designer and he feels confident that it will perform extremely well with the Nenuphar.

Whether the Nenuphar is my final choice is still unknown and up in the air.

My choice of Sound Lab (as stated in the OP) is no longer a viable option.

Horns were a maybe a month and a half ago when I started the thread...now they are a very likely option.

@david_ten -- Interesting approach. My philosophy is to start with the speakers and then work backwards to the amp. But, if I understand this thread correctly, it looks like you are more looking to experiment and play with a second system rather than replacing your main system. That can certainly change the way one normally approaches things. Good luck with your venture!

@mlsstl  That's great to hear. Glad you are enjoying your Ohm 1000s so much.

Unfortunately, given my amp choice the Ohm's are no longer a viable choice for me.

I'll just throw in my two cents here. I ordered a set of Ohm 1000s this summer and have had them about a month & a half now. 120 day trial or not, they are not going back. Tonally accurate, natural sounding, and best of all, just as with a live performance, you don't end up locked into one small sweet spot to get a realistic image.

Yes I do plan on being there and will report back my impressions.

Chris

@rodge827  Charney has been recommended and is on my list. A great choice. Let us know your impressions (I am assuming you will be there) of their room.

Charney will be at the 2018 Capital Audio Fest...stop by for a listen if your there

Hi everyone. This has been taking the time I expected it to. Reminds me of my move to ’slow food’ cooking, years ago. Fantastic results, by the way.

I made my first component choice to start off on this new pathway.

It is Scott Sheaffer’s Found Music 2A3 monoblock amplifier.

Here is some discussion of it, as well as photos:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/found-music-2a3-amplifier.4279/

Horn speakers leap out as an obvious pairing. There are other options also.

Given the amp, any changes or additional guidance regarding speaker choice? Thank you.

david_ten, thank you. It will be fun to see how you "adapt" to an entirely different genre of speaker and what insights you bring to discussion. :)

@douglas_schroeder

I love your point: "you will question everything you think you know"

Your post immediately above has so much wisdom in it. Thank you.

@douglas_schroeder The very point of the exercise... 😊

When you build the alternative system and get it tuned up you will question everything you think you know about your reference. But, that's part of the fun. :)

@kalali  Well put!  I agree! And yes, I will (most likely) need to factor in the cost of a preamp and amp, plus cabling, isolation, etc. should I go with the Cube speaker, or something similar. Expense will be a factor.

I've always wanted to have tubed amplification in the chain, even while building this current system...so despite the cost, it's a worthwhile goal for me. All solid state, which I have now, happens to be new for me.

As I'm close to my original and overarching goal of having a system that can serve as a benchmark and reference (for me), it's now a matter of being patient with building something different that stands in contrast to what I have.

Take your friend's advice - widebanders/single driver FR all sound different depending on how the drivers are implemented, e.g., open baffle, horn-loaded, etc., etc., and more importantly depending on the partnering gear. You'll need to audition them person to decide which one you like. You may also find that your T+A gear may not be the best match for most if not all the speakers you audition. IME, albeit limited, a current source tube amplifier with a moderately high output impedance (low damping factor) tends to deliver a fuller mid/low bass from those drivers. Consider the cost of the total package.

@dmance  Thanks for sharing your experience with Voxativ and how you've set them up and supplemented them. My room is a normal (largish) living room so what you've done and are suggesting will definitely work.

@rodge827  Charney is a speaker builder I'd love to meet in person and visit his shop in NJ. On my list of things to do when I get up there...though the audio related list is getting fairly long...might require two trips. : )

@larryi  Thanks for the informative post on the GIF and vintage Jensen drivers; as well as the suggestion to consider Horning and Rethm. I came close to acquiring a Rethm product in the past but couldn't commit.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/whizzer-cone-removal/post?postid=1584914#1584914  please take a look, My experience with
design loudspeakers based on widebanddrivers say ---
impossible to get good highs with whizzer cone.  The best way is not 
just understand this and  accepted or    not, Just listen i with AB comparison on the same record. What is whizzer .Is just piece of paper 
How it been compare with new technologies tweeters?  Historically
whizzer cone drivers  widely used in Pro sound starting long time ago.
in Cinema   theaters , and for some reason came up in High End.



in

The Charney system I heard with Voxativ driver sounded very good for a full-range dynamic driver system.  To me, the only short-coming is that the top end is not fully extended.

I recently heard an open baffle system using a full-range G.I.P. field coil driver--a replica of the Western Electric 4165A driver--and this was the finest sound I've heard from a full-range system.  But, the system actually has a tweeter that can be turned on and off to compare full-range to two-way.  The tweeter is crossed in very high (more like a super tweeter) with a simple resistor-capacitor network (1st order crossover) and an L-pad to adjust level).  I preferred the sound with the tweeter operating.  The G.I.P. driver is extremely expensive, but better than any other full range driver I've heard.

I also like the vintage Jensen/ERPI M-10 field coil driver used as an extended range driver (i.e., with a tweeter).

Horning makes some very dynamic and exciting systems using full range drivers as bass/midrange drivers and add a tweeter.  I like these systems too, although they are a touch bright and a little harsh sounding for my taste.  On the MUCH cheaper side, Rethm makes a speaker named the Bhaava that is essentially a full range driver augmented by a built-in, powered subwoofer; a great sounding system for the money (around $3,000).

When I’m the NY area make an appointment with Charney Audio in Somersett NJ. About 30-45 mins from midtown depending on traffic, and 10 min from Newark Liberty. All of Charney’s horns are true full range single driver designs that incorporate drivers from Omega, Lowther, Voxativ, and AER. No crossovers! No sub needed! That deliver in all the areas you are listening for! Clear noncongested engaging sound!  
He will be at Capital Audiofest in November.

http://charneyaudio.com/

I have Voxativ 5" AF2.6 in DIY enclosures - supplemented with a single REL S/5 SHO.  In an open (non treated) listening room, nearfield ...they are fantastic.  Over the past year, I matched the internal wiring to be same as my speaker leads (AP SilverOval2); I added Furutech 865 wirewound posts; I added BatPro2 super tweeters and GAIA footers.  Basically, I now have the artists in my room. 
Sure, i've heard what more linear speakers sound like (>$35k) and have (maybe) been convinced that whizzer cones color the sound ...but single drivers are magical for convincing staging and voxativ are unmatched for timbre and transparency.  And i only need 30watts to drive these.
If you dont want to go full DIY, Voxativ now has their FIT product (five inch tower) that can be optioned to have the AF2.6 driver for under $6k.  And you can buy a used REL for under $2k.  Cables, supertweeter and footers bring the price to about $10k.
If you dont need to fill a hall-sized room, this is the way to go, IMO. 

@lowrider57 Thanks. It is a great thread.

@atmasphere and @clio09 The driver can be purchased directly and thanks to @acresverde , who introduced me to a cabinet maker here in New Orleans, making that an option as well.

If you are inclined to DIY, or just want to peruse some additional information on the topic this site might be helpful:

http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/nirvana.html

If any of the drivers interest you it wouldn’t be difficult for someone with experience to build cabinets for them. I think Lee Taylor’s name comes up a lot in that regard.

Both the 8" and the 10" CubeAudio look like they might work really well in a line source array and perhaps wired in series/parallel or just in series.https://www.cubeaudio.eu/cube-audio-f10-neo
I suspect though that a subwoofer is still going to be needed, but that 10" goes down lower than any full range drive I've seen so far (if their claims are true).  If the FR really is 30Hz, a ported cabinet might be pretty cool.

Omega speakers...
https://omegaloudspeakers.com

There are quite a few owners here on the forum.

@david_ten 
Hello , If you still looking for single , full range loudspeakers . and 
looking for Best, You have to choose best driver, I think the Voxative
line is the best on the market now, My Skylar get a lot of upgrade
option , and actually you can buy any    Voxative drivers
 by yourself, and ship
me to  complete loudspeakers, we apply buffle step crossover , or 
you can connect bypass , for pure crossoverless connection.

@blueranger  Thank you. I deleted my post because it was late at night and I figured I should invest more time reviewing Ohm's website, before asking you questions. I think I'm fine on room size and placement (even if I need to move them out into the room). And Ohm's 120 day trial period is extremely generous and enticing.

My main concern is not around the speakers themselves (similar to what I posted in response to Bache), but on my goal...which is to get a single driver unit in here.

You've got a strong thread for Ohm speakers so I'll take a look over there also.

Yeap I just looked at the dimensions. Place them very close against the long wall 6-10 feet apart without anything in between if you decide to try them.

OHM speakers are unlike any others in 3D presentation. In my opinion. 25 to 25 with the 5000. 16 to 25 with the 5015! A long time OHM owner since 82. My brother and sister have or had OHMs as well. Once you have them for a while and have become acustomed to the spacious sound, other speakers don't sound right They do best with lots of clean power. Call John Strohbeen and he will tell you exactly which model to get.

@bache  I looked at your Bache - 002.

I like the design and if I can get to the NYC area, I'd be happy to give it a listen.

For now, I'm leaning towards a true single driver design, primarily to experience and learn from something I have not had or worked with, within my own system.