Badri wrote: "What kind of setup do you have, if you don't mind my asking?"
My setup changes a lot because I'm a speaker designer. I have several different amps that I use, depending on what type of speaker I'm working on, and what I want to check. For instance at the moment I'm working on a roughly 90 dB efficient tube-friendly speaker, but right now it's hooked up to a solid-state integrated amp because, among other things, I want to make sure I'm happy with the sound on both types of amps.
The speaker system that my wife had me designate as "ours" consists of a pair of tube-friendly, upper-90's efficient "satellites" and four small subwoofers. But that complete system hasn't actually been hooked up for a while because I've been doing product development.
Duke |
"11-13-15: Badri
@Zd542 Ah - I suspected that might be the case and was surprised that no one mentioned it. While I am not looking to replace my amp right now, when I get around to it, should I even look at tubes or should I switch to solid-state?"
There's no way that I, or anyone else, can tell you what to do. And its not because we don't want to, we just can't. The best I can tell you for sure, is that audio is a very hands on hobby. Most people don't realize this when they first get involved. Its not about reading reviews and ordering equipment. If you want good sound, you have to go after it. Demo as much gear as you can, even if you think you won't like it. The more listening you do, the better you get. You'll end up making your fair share of mistakes, but we all do, and that's just the way it goes. If you want to succeed, active participation is a must. |
@Jazzman463 Thank you for that. I think the limited power I have from my amp might not be enough for electrostatic speakers - which I have heard are power hungry beasts. So I kind of eliminated the Maggies from my consideration.
At this point, I am thinking of the Focal Aria, Triangle Antal EZ, PSB T2, Totem Arro, Sonus Faber Venere, KEF R700, Golden Ear Triton & Revel Performa F30.
I would like to try the Proac recommended on this thread, but the price of new ones is out of my budget.
In addition, I would like to try out some Dynaudio & Dali speakers, but I have no idea which ones I should even try out. Yet. Fun times :) |
@Zd542 Ah - I suspected that might be the case and was surprised that no one mentioned it. While I am not looking to replace my amp right now, when I get around to it, should I even look at tubes or should I switch to solid-state? |
@Audiokinesis Those pads do sound perfect. In my case, I am lucky in that there are just two residences in my building and the lower level is a cafe which plays music all day long and I don't need to worry too much about them. :) Also my music listening levels tend to be bwteeen low/moderate - with only rare bouts of extreme exuberance :) But if I end up hearing any complaints, I will know exactly what to do about it - after I first turn down the volume of course - hahahahahaha :D
It is really cool that your son makes music. What kind of setup do you have, if you don't mind my asking? |
"That said - that was before I realized that what I wanted most from my speakers was speed and transparency in addition to just plain old bass extension. So I was wondering if you were pointing me towards any specific bookshelf speakers with that in mind."
All of the components in the system need work together if you want to achieve your goal. So, if you want speed and transparency, the Jolida is probably not a good choice. |
Hi Badri,
If you go for floor-standing speakers, you might consider getting Auralex isolation pads to put under them. The Auralex Gramma and ProPad and SubDude all do an excellent job of eliminating structure-borne vibrations, and will therefore increase the sound pressure level you can enjoy before the neighbors complain. They might also help with stand-mount speakers, considering that vibration can be transmitted from speaker to stand to floor.
The Auralex isolation products are widely used in recording studios, in part because sound travels faster in a solid than through the air. So the vibration that the speaker box transmits to the console shelf, which vibrates the console just a tiny bit, actually outruns the sound waves that come off the cone and travel through the air. The ear is especially sensitive to first-arrival sounds, so this can degrade the clarity that the recording engineer needs to do his job well. The Auralex products are the solution.
I have several apartment-dwelling customers who have been very happy with Auralex underneath their speakers. No, I don't sell Auralex.
In your original post you asked: "However, will that sort of speaker [high efficiency, tube-amp-friendly] be able to navigate the high speed bass attack of electronic music when driven by an amplifier such as mine?"
Oh yes, if designed to do so.
I build lower-90's efficiency tube-amp-friendly speakers, and my son composes electronica. No problems whatsoever with a 30-watt tube amp (though they can handle ten times that), and he has even gigged with this combination.
Duke |
Recently I have been intently listening to my speaker collection for the best match to a Manley Stingray. The collection includes ... DCM time windows,Klipsh KG 4/ KG 5.5, Spica TC 50's,Magnepan MG 2's ,Zu Omen's,Kef Reference 103.3's. I listen in a 12x13 room,all sources.
My current ranking is
1. Kef 103.3 ( with cubie)
2.Klipsh KG 5.5
3.DCM Time windows,
4.Klipsh KG 4,
5. Spica's
6. Zu Omen.
The Magnepan 's are too large for the room, and a pain to move so I did not include.The Maggies have been my favorite speaker since 1981.The Spica are also a beautiful sounding speaker but need a sub woofer. The Kef's have great bass.
The Kef's are a beautiful sounding speaker.I think of the $ 250.00 I spent on em , and think they can't sound that good,they do.The Zu's are a bit disappointing ,I think they need more room. |
@Mesch That will be happening next weekend. I am calling a couple of dealers up today and tomorrow and setting the listening sessions up! |
I have a difficult time recommending speakers as i have not heard many of the reported great ones and everyone’s preference differs. I own Esoteric MG-10s and like them for detail, speed, dynamics, coherance and tonal balance. No longer sold in the US and difficult to find used. That said I am not so sure how they would match with your Jolida.
Have you taken your Jolida to any dealers for a listen yet? |
@Mesch ah- thanks! I think I missed the emphasis on the isolation bit. I have actually heard some bookshelf speakers which really do give floorstanders a run for their money (the Totem Mani-2, specifically). But apart from that, I had always thought that their bass-extension was less than floor standers. That said - that was before I realized that what I wanted most from my speakers was speed and transparency in addition to just plain old bass extension. So I was wondering if you were pointing me towards any specific bookshelf speakers with that in mind. |
Badri, I didn’t mean to suggest restriction to monitors, I just prefer them. Always thought they provided better soundstage/imaging for the $$$. That line of thinking may not hold true today. One additional thought I had was that a monitor on solid stand might be isolated from the floor better than a floor standing speaker which may be important in an apartment setting. |
@Zd542 A new DAC is definitely on the cards - but for a little bit later. I would rather get really good speakers now and invest in a proper outboard DAC and maybe a synchro-mesh device later. I have been looking at DAC+headphone amp combos - and might look into the Benchmark DAC - but not for another year or so after I have saved up some more. |
"My amp is an older JD202 model. It is an integrated amp and delivers 40W. My source is a Sonos (without the W4S mods) and while I mostly play FLAC files from my local library, I also stream content from Spotify on occasion."
Given that, I would split the 3k up and use some of it for speakers, and the rest for a new source. The Sonos is only going to get you so far. A new dac connected to your integrated with IC's may make as big a difference as new speakers will. |
@Stringreen I think you may be right. The Sennheiser HD650 and the Etymotics are very very different though fantastic sounding headphones/earphones. The HD650, I find quiet, laid back and dark. The Etymotics on the other hand are transparent beyond words. While they are both detailed, I must admit, I use them for very very different kinds of listening - and what I am looking for in my speakers is probably something closer to what I get from my Etymotics than what I get from the admittedly gorgeous sounding - but very dark Sennheiser. |
@Phusis - I don't know how I missed that review. I usually make it a point to read all their speaker reviews especially if they are reasonably priced. Thanks for pointing those out to me! |
@Soix- thank you so much for all those recommendations. I will see if I can seek them out. |
@Mesch Is there a reason you suggest restricting myself to bookshelf/monitors over a floorstander? |
@Audiokinesis - once again, thank you so much. As you might have guessed, I am going about this as a three pass process - in which steps 2 & 3 are the same as what you proposed!
a) Collect recommendations/suggestions from this group and see if I can find a place to audition things that come highly recommended from here.
b) Do a first round of listening to a combination of what the dealers think would be a good idea and the suggestions from here and see what sounds best with the wide variety of music I like to create a shortlist.
c) Take my amp around with me and do a deeper listen from the shortlist.
This does sound like it will be a long process - but I am quite excited to get started :) |
@Serge_s, @Wim1983 - thanks for those tips. |
@Yashu - Unfortunately I am nowhere near Nashville- but hearing the second recommendation for Proac just makes me even more eager to audition them! |
@Melbguy1 - that is a brand I had no heard of at all - but the reviews of the piece do make it sound great. I don't see any dealers for Proac in the BayArea though. Might need to see what I can do about that. Also - the price point for a new set is way out of my budget - but perhaps I should keep an eye out on this site to see if any go on sale.
Thanks so much for that tip! |
@Celtic66 - the merlins seem to be a bit out of my price range. Am I mistaken about that? |
@Newbee - that sounds like useful advise. What speakers do you know of that sound "linear"? I am not sure I am familiar with what that term means. Do you mean that they sound good and have good grip and response at low/medium volume? Any suggestions for examples of good speakers that demonstrate this behaviour? |
@Mt10425 - dual subs seems like a wonderful idea if I can find the space and money for it :) At the current house rent rates in San Francisco, I would be in a pickle if I needed to find an apartment big enough for that amount of equipment :) |
@Ghosthouse - most of the dealers I have spoken to have been extremely positive to the idea of me bringing the amp along. So I will definitely be doing that. My amp incidentally is the 202a - and an integrated as you guessed right. I did roll the stock tubes and replaced them with the Mullard EL34 though. |
@ZD542
My amp is an older JD202 model. It is an integrated amp and delivers 40W. My source is a Sonos (without the W4S mods) and while I mostly play FLAC files from my local library, I also stream content from Spotify on occasion. |
@Whart
I have enquired with some of my local dealers and most have said that they used to allow customers to try the speakers out at home, but that they no longer do that. I have not enquired as to what made them change their minds, but at least they seemed to really want me to bring my amp along and were willing to move all the pieces I wanted to audition to one room so that I can compare them all relative to each other without much variation in the surroundings. I think this might be as good as I can get in the San Francisco area.
The book is ordered and is on it's way. I look forward to reading that!
As for horns, you are not the only person suggesting that. I had a friend also suggest that I try some of the older Klipsch horn-loaded speakers. I have no idea how to try out the JBLs - but I will try and see if there are vendors around here that I can try them out at.
Thank you once again for your advise! |
Badri, you are lucky to have a good choice of dealers in the area. You should be able to find an excellent speaker. In your quest, be sure to listen to speakers that are above your budget. It is helpful to see what you may be giving up at your price point....or not. The dealers may also have some used or demo gear that would allow you to get a better speaker for your budget. I have built my system on demo or used gear and often you can save 30-50%. Enjoy your listening. |
Badri, fair call. Hopefully you've got some good options out of the responses so far (including my own). |
Some other points I should have mentioned is some details on what kind of speakers I have now and where I live - in case that plays a part in your recommendations for dealers.
I have floor standing speakers made by Energy - specifically the C-300. http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Standing-Speaker-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B0012004K8/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8
I live in San Francisco - in the city. I am currently talking to folks at AudioVisionSF (http://www.audiovisionsf.com/) on California St & Polk St. There are at least a couple of others in the city (and Berkeley) that I think I should hit up. |
@Melbguy1 - OP has been mostly overwhelmed with the quality and amount of kind & detailed advise he has been getting. After the time delay it takes to get the post reviewed, I only noticed on Monday that this thread had grown into a wonderful treasure trove of information.
@Whart, @ Audiokinesis - I can't believe the amount of time you have taken to provide me the advise you did. Thank you so much for taking the time to do so. Both of your advise also centers on finding the speaker I like more than finding the right speaker for the amp I have right now. I will definitely keep that in mind.
@Whart - thank you for the reading recommendation. I will certainly give that a read.
To all the other people on this thread that have been so generous with your time, I will need to take some time on Saturday to read each of your posts and reply back to each of you. In the meantime, please keep the advise coming. I am literally soaking it all in - at times resorting to jotting down the advise in my notebook so that I remember it. This is - as many people point out - something that appears will take me a little while to decide. So the information will be welcome. |
Badri....providing that you have a very good headphone amp, you will never get better sound than from your Sennheisers. I have 650's and Entymotics for the Ipod, but truth be told, there are many things that the 650's do that my Vandersteen's don't. That's not to say that I even prefer the earphones...I mainly listen to the speakers since they are a more normal means of listening. ...but in high end terms, earphones provide a higher level of sound....especially since you don't have a large room, or appropriate electronics to accomodate a large Vandersteen, Maggie, (my faves)..etc. |
@Whart, I guess I have a different constitution. I believe if you post a
thread asking for opinions from members, it is common courtesy to
participate in your thread & reply to posters...if only to thank them for their
input. |
Badri -- In light of your circumstances with the Jolida tube amp and stated taste in music comes to mind the moderate to high-ish sensitivity (relative to the sensitivity of typical, direct radiation "hifi" speakers) Pendragon and Enzo XL speakers from Tekton Design, priced at slightly more than $2000/pair. Stereophile's fairly recent review seems to indicate these (the Enzo XL's, and I'm sure the Pendragon's as well, had they been placed on the test bench) are versatile, true full-range speakers: The Enzos didn't just play Rick Laird's bass notes—they let me feel them. The XLs didn't present to my brain the idea of bass, as all of my small speakers do—they massaged me with expanding wavefronts. There was something unique and extremely natural about the way the Tektons projected bass energy into the room. They got not only the tone, the attack, and the decay, but the plucked-string pulling-up emphasis of the bass player's art. The Enzos did an especially good job of connecting me to the humans making the music.
...
The Enzo XLs gave me 90% of the coherence and joy of my Class A reference speakers, along with at least one additional, deeply gratifying octave of big, live-sounding, pants-flapping, room-filling bass. Unbelievably, they also gave me something like 90% of the accuracy and authority I heard from Wilson Audio's "giant robots" back in the late '80s.
Today, the average price of the speakers listed in "Class A–Full Range" of Stereophile's "Recommended Components" is over $56,000/pair. In that world, the $2100/pair Tekton Enzo XLs are practically free. Based on my reviewing experience, these practically free speakers will get you a satisfyingly big portion of those $50,000 models' performance. Consider this review a thoughtfully considered, heartfelt recommendation. These giant monoliths are great fun! http://www.stereophile.com/content/tekton-design-enzo-xl-loudspeaker#1hr8TIyzeXJlEe85.97And no, I have no affiliation with Tekton Design, it just appears they may fit your bill, one way and the other, quite nicely. Additionally, I'd like to second the comments above made by poster Whart. |
Don't we often write for two reasons, at least? One to help and another to give voice to our views? Sometimes, these threads have a life even after the OP has taken a powder.... |
I noticed the OP hasn't responded to any posts. Looks like he's had a change of direction.. |
"One other tip I forgot to mention is that I will generally like a speaker that I want to keep turning up louder rather than the ones I want to turn down."
I think its better to have a system that doesn't make you feel the need to increase or decrease volume. |
Not sure what aspects of sound reproduction (i.e. Neutrality, tonal richness, imaging, soundstage, micro/macro dynamics, pace/timing, disappear as sound source, etc.) are most important to you, but a few that shoot pretty much down the middle of the fairway and are relatively benign loads are Joseph Audio, Silverline, and Reference 3A. If you have any of those available nearby, or even if you would have to travel a bit, those are worth a listen IMHO. And I'd bring the Jolida if at all possible. Best of luck. |
You have received much great advice above. Pay attention to the Audiokinesis post. I see no problem in finding a quality speaker to match with your Jolida that meets your listening/environmental requirements. I would search out a monitor speaker having 87dB - 92dB sensitivity, nominal 6 ohm impedance, and relatively flat impedance across the frequency range not dropping much below 4 ohms. Include in your budget a good pair of solid stands for the speakers. The idea of adding a subwoofer may prove beneficial in achieving and controlling the bottom end in your apartment. |
10-25-15: Peterh
Go to Madisound or another speaker parts company and buy a kit that is easy to assemble. They will advise you as to your amps capability and speaker requirement. They are aware of your needs as to easy to drive speakers.
You don't have to be a great craftsman to build these speakers.
Enjoy, Peterh That's a good point Peter. In Australia, a friend of mine Paul Spencer has a business called 'The Loudspeaker Kit' & has some great value and good sounding speaker kits. The LSK F6 Mk3 is their top of the range model. I heard its predecessor at the Melbourne Hifi show and was really surprised how good they sound. Stuart Ralston from SGR Audio designed the crossovers and cabinets, whilst Paul has a knack for tuning speakers to get the sound he wants. And with the low Aussie dollar, you could pick up a pair for just over $1kUS & invest the spare change in better cables. Food for thought. |
You rock, Duke!
+1, Goose with one important proviso; that you are not turning the volume down because you are clipping the amp. |
|
Audiokinesis makes some geat points especially about the impedance discussion. One other tip I forgot to mention is that I will generally like a speaker that I want to keep turning up louder rather than the ones I want to turn down. |
For the low to moderate volume listening your apartment location dictates, that 40 watt JoLida will be sufficient with medium (honest 87 dB) efficiency speakers. I was a Jolida dealer for many years and imo you made an excellent first amplifier purchase for a newcomer to the scene.
There is an inevitable tradeoff relationship between small box size, high efficiency, and deep bass extension. Basically you can have any two of the three but not all three. So assuming there is a maximum box size you can live with, you'll be trading off efficiency vs bass extension within that box size limit, but I don't think especially high efficiency is needed for low to moderate listening levels.
One factor which is seldom obvious from the published specs is the shape of the impedance curve. Tube amps generally sound better with a speaker that has a fairly smooth impedance curve. Impedance peaks in the bass region are usually okay, but major dips and/or major peaks elsewhere in the curve can work against compatibility with an amp like your Jolida. I say this as a speaker manufacturer who designs with tube amp compatibility in mind.
I think it's great that you will be visiting several dealers to audition their speakers. Imo you should call them in advance and tell them what you've told us, and they can each make their best recommendations from their lineup and be prepared to put their best foot forward for your particular needs. You might approach your quest as a two-stage process: First round, listening in order to create a short-list of speakers that are the best candidates. Second round, bring your amp and listen more extensively to the short-list speakers to make your final selection.
I suggest trying speakers at a wide range of volume levels, as some speakers that sound great at medium levels tend to sound lifeless at low levels. Generally speaking high efficiency speakers tend to do better than low efficiency speakers in this regard, but there are enough exceptions to keep this from being a reliable rule.
One suggestion should help with selecting a speaker from your short list that is non-fatiguing over the long term: Turn the volume level up a bit louder than normal and walk out of the room, listening through the open doorway but with no line-of-sight to the speakers. From out there, all you can possibly hear is the reverberant field. Is there a reasonable illusion of live music happening in the room, or is it painfully obvious that you're listening to speakers? I believe that there is a good correlation between speakers that get the reverberant field right and long-term listening enjoyment, and this test, call the L.I.A.R test (Listening In Another Room), throws a spotlight on that.
You might also try the different output transformer taps, if your amp has them. Just because it's an "8 ohm" speaker doesn't mean you can't try the 4-ohm taps. You will probably lose some maximum output power with a "mis-match", but if you gain in sound quality and don't need the extra power, who cares? I built a pair of 8-ohm speakers for my parents, and they sounded better on the 4-ohm taps of their Jolida 302b.
If you'd like a crash course in the technical details that make one speaker better suited than another for tube amps I can do that too, but otherwise I'd say trust your dealers to make the best recommendations from their respective lineups.
The Speaker Quest is one of the most enjoyable ventures we audiophiles embark on. Take the scenic route instead of the fast lane and enjoy the journey!
Duke
dealer/manufacturer |
Go to Madisound or another speaker parts company and buy a kit that is easy to assemble. They will advise you as to your amps capability and speaker requirement. They are aware of your needs as to easy to drive speakers.
You don't have to be a great craftsman to build these speakers.
Enjoy, Peterh |
If you are anywhere near Nashville, I have a perfect pair of Proac Response 2.5 I would consider selling. They would probably fit your needs quite nicely....... |
40 tube watts is decent, though I would lean toward efficient speakers, not necessarily 'highly efficient' speakers over 6 ohms/90db. Therefore I would not feel comfortable recommending less efficient speakers like Vandersteen and Evolution Acoustics. In your price range, I would recommend looking at the pair of Proac Response D-28's on the 'Gon - https://app.audiogon.com/listings/full-range-proac-response-d-28-2015-10-23-speakers-19317-chadds-ford-pa
The Proacs are 8ohms/88.5db efficient and are a simple 2 way design, but are capable of deep bass & dig down to 20Hz. They are bi-wirable or can be bi-amped. I think the Proacs would suit your taste in music & be keepers. Btw, with your spare change, I would consider a nice pair of bi-wire speaker cables. That is a subject for another thread however. Best wishes. |
Merlin monitors on non-spiked massed 24" stands. The lack of spikes will deter vibration through the sub-flooring. Efficient enough for Jolida 40 wpc with great low volume resolution, the speaker will respond linearly with future upgrades. |
I recommend that you buy amplifiers for speakers, not speakers for amplifiers. |
