Matt - really looking forward to your impressions of the Berkeley Reference DAC. Thanks and keep up the good work!
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
That's the spirit Geoffkit! Lol.... My neighbor went all out and ordered a full set of top tier WireWorld Platinum Eclipse 7 interconnects, digital and speaker wire (literally tens of thousands in cable); and I get to play with all of it before we set it up at his place. They are coming around the same time as his Berk Ref. Fortunately, he also ordered the Berk USB converter so I will be able to try it with both the Mac mini and his Aurender N10. And I still owe you all a review on that Waversa Smart Hub I was sent. SO many toys, SO little time!!! |
10-25-15: DgarretsonDave, I found multiple indications on the web that the Gen Va used the Burr-Brown PCM63, which was a 20-bit predecessor of the 24-bit PCM1704 discussed above. As can be seen in the PCM63 datasheet it was indeed an R-2R, and the theory of operation section on page 5 reads very similarly to the corresponding section on page 6 of the PCM1704 datasheet. The focus on performance around the zero crossing in both descriptions is reminiscent of the philosophy of the very expensive MSB DACs. Matt, thanks for the light-hearted interlude, which I read and enjoyed. Best regards, -- Al |
On a side not, and a side note that I don't believe has been discussed, I'm very curious of everyone's opinions of line conditioning, surge suppression, power regeneration, balanced power, filtering, magnets and magic pixie dust??? I know I dragged everyone into the depths of my electrical design when I was wiring my room, but we never hit on this subject. Let's keep it organized and break it up into overall room conditioning at the circuit box, high current conditioning for amps and low current conditioning for rack gear. My room utilizes a dedicated panel and the only thing I have (actually, am about to install) on my panel for the whole room is the Environmental Potentials EP-2050 Surge and Waveform corrector ion module. I know Mike went all out for the Equi-Tech Balanced power breaker panel. Wish it had been in the budget at the time; maybe some day. I am currently running my amps direct to the wall using Shinyata Zitron Alpha High Current Power cords but am considering adding an IsoTek Evo3 Titan high current conditioner with Evo3 Syncro power cable (they are very cool. The cable has a small balanced conditioner built right into the cable. DC filtering, no emi/rfi). Or a Shunyata Hydra Triton V2. Rack is currently under control with a Shunyaya Hydra AV and all Shunyata Zitron Power cords. Although I will definitely be jumping on a Plasmatron for my digital when I can fit it into the budget. Seriously considered the Audience Adept Response gear and that's actually the direction my neighbor went, along with the IsoTek Titan/Syncro for amps (which I am all over borrowing and trying!). Open forum as always. Nothing is the best, especially in the voodoo world of power conditioning. Should be a fun side run while we slowly post about dacs. |
Mattnshilp, well I certainly would not think you would want to introduce "magic pixie dust" to start a discussion. I have limited experience with anything you introduce and some of which I have never heard of. All that I have ever owned of these products is an IsoTek balanced power unit. It gave me a hum when I used my turntable. It was basically the absence of a ground at the root of this problem. I have had about 15 different line conditioners dating back at least ten years, ranging from isolation transformers, filtering systems, magnetic filtering systems, and regeneration units. I had some of the Shunyaya equipment in my system but none that I ever bothered to buy. As always, I find little to discuss as everyone hears differently and has different tastes. But I must say that I find no power cords that challenge the High Fidelity power cords and that the obscenely expensive "Pro" or clearly the best. With these power cords, I hear more detail as they are so quiet. They allow a holographic presentation. Finally, I think any dac that cannot play quad DSD will long endure. |
"Car analogies only get you so much mileage." Geoff, I "resemble" that comment!!!! That's exactly why my next car will be the Prius 2016... 60 miles per gallon *grins!* ... With standard audio setup, BTW. Matt.... IMO, before you indulge in further line conditioning magic etc.... Why not upgrade your Burmies PCs. The new Shunyata Sigmas are obvious contenders.... But Norm brings up an excellent point.... HFCs are relatively new contenders, and they are more than worth careful examination. I have only explored the basic CT-1 and the Ultras, and find them to be astonishingly musical, resolving, and harmonically complex. The only caveat is that for high current amplifiers one must adopt a series that does not limit current.... This probably means at least the Ultras -- which I use on my M925s -- or an even higher series. G. |
Matt, thanks for running this thread the way you have. Most of us have learned a ton. I put my money where my mouth is by purchasing the Empirical with all mods along with the mac mini server with Steve's power supply. When first reading this thread there was no way I was ever going to purchase from a direct seller either new or used. By reading and listening to everything I could, I realized that I don't care what's inside as much as I care what's inside my ears. In putting my system together over the last two years I've gone from selling off three other systems and then rolling them into Vandersteen Treo's (about to become the Vandy Quatro;s I believe), the OSDE, Mac Mini, Basis TT with Ginko base, Rhea phono stage, Ayre AX5/Twenty and top AQ cables. Using a Marantz blueray for all discs right now. About to get the Qnap NAS I believe so I can really become a streaming household with my Linn Kiko (bedroom). Listening to Joe Bonamassa right now. Live from Albert Hall. Apologize for the music reference (also getting tickets to his up coming Carnegie Hall gig). I listen at mostly low to mid levels due to dogs and family concerns. I'm about to post a thread on my thoughts as today I turned it all up. I didn't realize my Treo's could go as low as they did. This DAC just does things right. Not quite vinyl, but better than the other DACs mentioned here for me. I've heard them all, but not all in my system like Matt and not as much time with them. They are mostly excellent DACs that I'd LOVE to have. I built the system and just recently decided to upgrade my power cleaning from the 2000 (the year) Richard Gray 4 plug unit I was given to the Synergistic Research Powercell 10 mk 2 I believe it is. From first plug in, I heard the lower noise floor. This Ayre/Treo combo really shows up flaws, but also gives you the truth in any changes in your system! I didn't think the power upgrade would do much, but for whatever reason it does in MY system and in MY room. I was going to go with the Shynyata equivalent, but then found out my dealer Audio Connection used the Isotech. I was in the store when a very well known cable manufacturer came to show how great his new 5k cable and 10k conditioner sounded. System was Ayre digital player, Vandersteen Treo CT's, Ayre AX5 (not the twenty yet), AQ CastleRock speaker cable and the Iso tech (older and not the biggest one. Short version: all plugged straight from the wall in the store (older cabling I'm sure) the dynamics were great. Sound was awesome. Transients were there in spades. Clean sound. Leading and trailing edges of notes were almost as they should be. A bit short at times Plugged into the IsoTech gave similar sound to plugged directly into the wall,however with the lower noise floor the leading AND trailing edges of the notes were amazing. They literally hung in space and decayed naturally like a real instrument. It's not a HUGE difference per say, but it made a big difference and was readily noticed by the three of us. Plugged into that 10k plus conditioner the sound was truncated a bit. Much shorter leading and trailing edges. The music lost it's air. It was noticed in the first seconds of the first cut. Even the designer/manufacturer noticed. We didn't want to say anything to him about it to hurt his feelings, but I have no filters. He agreed and I'm sure that he's gone back to fix it. Long and short for me, power was the last thing to do. It does make a difference in various rooms I've heard it in, but not all rooms based on what I've heard and friends of mine have shared. I don't have special cables yet other than one Basis cable I use for the DAC. I don't think you can tune your system with power either. I think often things change the sound, but not always for the best. I'm just thankful that the SR power cell doesn't limit the dynamics my Ayre. Great thread Matt and thanks again. |
10-25-15: Dgarretson THETA DS PRO GENERATION V 2 or 4 x PCM63P-K + 3 x Motorola 56001 Yes it is Dave, but it's old school, and may sound very good, could even give the K-01X a run. But what it needs is implementation of current thoughts on the I/V (current to voltage stage) to be done on it. As back then they just used text book stuff. With todays hiend I/V stages, if you put one into it, you'll be blown away for RedBook replay, and will sell the K-01X if you don't do DSD. Cheers George |
Dave the PCM63 is very similar to the PCM1704k I use, for a good zero feedback I/V stage to implement into your Theta ferret through this lengthy thread (attached) I started on the AD844 used in zero feeback mode for I/V duties. For your R2R 20bit PCM63 dac's you have in it, they are spec'd at 2mA @ 1.5kohm and would need a three stack of AD844, and use it's own output buffer that's built in also three stack, then you will have magic with RedBook replay. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v.html Cheers George |
I think if you do a search on this there are many posts, and it's the other way around. Multibit is less susceptible to jitter than Delta Sigma. This is just one that came up. " Multi-Bit less sensitive to jitter than delta-sigma Delta-Sigma Guaranteed more HF noise More susceptible to jitter Can be susceptible to idle tones" Cheers George |
George-lo-fi just won't let it go. He believes he is right and will state so over and over again. There was this guy on Audioasylum that would always say DVD-A sucks or something like that.....he would say it over and over....eventually we made up a #9 game........meaning when you post #9 it would mean "DVD-A sucks". After anyone would mention DVD-A then someone else would immediately post #9 and the guy had nothing to say.....it was already said. I think we can do that with George......since He likes multibit maybe we could give him #11......as in two bits....which is what his comments are usually worth....he he....just funning. Most everyone else can see that implementation is more important then whether the DAC chip is R2R or not....not George...it is everything to him.....As I stated before Schiit has 4 $75 20 bit exotic r2r DACs in their $2300 DAC....no way it is going to sound as good as the $15,000 Berkeley DAC that uses the $7 Analog Devices thang. However, all things being equal I would also vote for multibit r2r....however, they are rarely if ever equal. Back in 2000 I made my Millennium DACs and the second to forth versions I used the 1704 r2r DACs....the first Millennium DAC used the AD1853 cheapo. The 1704 version sounded a little better but also only had one op amp on the output whereas the AD1853 had two. Very similar sound. Now, if you use a super digital filter with the 1704 or no filter then you get something much, much better....I was using the stock BB DF1704 filter....not good by todays standard at all. When I made a proto back then using the 18 bit dual r2r AD1865 DAC chip with NO digital filter and one op amp on the output it creamed my 24 bit r2r 1704 DAC with discrete output stage.....slaughtered it. Implementation is paramount.....however, parts are important as well. |
10-26-15: Ricevs From my very first post Ricevs, look first before posting lies. "In my opinion when Redbook is replayed through a well implemented R2R Ladder Mutibit Dac, it's amazing, with detail, smoothness and transient attack that todays Delta Sigma, Bitstream, ESS ect ect dacs just can't match." Cheers George |
Lies? Man, you are off the deep end! Who are you quoting? Must be God because you are so righteous! he he. But God would not have said "In My Opinion". You don't have an opinion....you believe you have the "truth" and you keep quoting other peoples opinions to back up your "truth". You must not have much of a life to need to be so right and to tell everyone on every thread about your "truth". I feel sorry for you. The real lie here is that you do not see how beautiful you are. You are the light of the universe! You don't need to prove anything to anyone. Love yourself.....it feels sooooo Good! |
10-26-15: Ricevs Me Me! Take another look. From my very first post!! http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&openflup&2064&4#2064 No cheers with this nightmare George |
Ok. we are having a 50 post hiatus on George, r2r, AD or anything related to (or from) Geeorge in regards to r2r. I have put a massive amount of work into keeping this thread going and interesting. George, I consider what you are doing now disrespectful of my time and effort. You made your point over and over and we get it. There is nothing that you can say you haven't already said multiple times. Unplug your keyboard for a week and just enjoy whatever direction the thread goes. George, no posts AT ALL, as a response to a technical or personal question! And NO POSTS in response to George guys! This is what kills threads. And I won't let it happen!!! |
I have found that by planting red and green daisy's in front of the house, and blue and purple in back that it makes my music room sound fuller and more detailed. I tried white as I thought it would clean things up a bit but it made the sound too sterile. One shrubbery on the side of the house tightened up the base dramatically and drawing with orange chalk on my driveway did amazing things for my soundstage. Anyone have a similar experience? PS - the Berk Ref is in the house and will be hooked up tomorrow to start cooking. A whole bunch of fun cables are on their way as well. |
Matt thanks so much. Many of us don't really care about the tech stuff quite as much. You know me fairly well when it comes to audio. It's only about the sound and how components and rooms work together. I'm ready for your cable reviews, but really want to hear about how the more expensive DAC's will perform. I'll try to get down your way one of these weekends. it's hard because it's college football season and my team plays important games for the next few weeks, lol. Thanks. |
Berkeley DAC is up and running. I will hopefully get some time tomorrow morning to get first impressions. The USB to spdif is ready to go tomorrow. But for now I'm running spdif straight from the Aurender N10. Let's see which sounds better (USB to spdif with converter, or spdif direct). Cables due in any day now. Audiolabyrinth - pm sent. Dying to hear your cable suggestions behind the scenes. |
Matt, the Berkley guys love the Aurender I believe. It will be interesting. How old is the Berkley? I heard one in Boston that had under 200 hours and it didn't sound great. I think I mentioned that last year. I just wasn't blown away. Then more recently I heard one that was already burned in. It sounded like a totally different DAC. Just saying, lol. |
Erndog- go back and read..... I did. Reviews on both the Antipodes and Aurender are in pages gone by. Short answer - Aurender N10 way better to my ears, in my system. But my Mod'd Mac Mini still sounds better then both of them. The Antipodes was very well burned in. The Aurender was fresh. I'm going to listen Friday to both the Aurender and the Berk Ref. Stay tuned. |
Hi Matt, Another lurker here who has been following this thread with interest - after going the EMM Labs route, I settled on the Stahl Tek Vekian Opus for a DAC, but as an audiophile, am of course interested in seeing what else is out there. However, I wanted to pick up on your comments / requests for posts on power treatment. I (like probably many of us here) have been through a number of power treatment options over the years, from the old API 116, to the Chang Lightspeed, Monster (the Richard Marsh designed products), MIT, Shunyata Hydra, Marigo Apparition, RGPC, PS Audio (P300 to PPP), Audience, Accuphase, etc. Generally, in my experience, by far the most bang for the buck I have gotten (far more than any conditioner) is upgrading closer to the source, i.e., up to the meter (and further than that, if your power company lets you). I think most audiophiles, even the non-tweaky, are on board with the idea of dedicated AC lines, and a dedicated panel with solid copper bus bars for your audio equipment. (It sounds like you are going in this direction. The EP-2050 is also a nice addition). Ideally, you would want to get a meter that allows you to run two main panels, and power your audio system on a separate panel from the rest of your house. Also, a huge difference comes from the grounding arrangement. I currently am using an isolated ground with a chemical grounding rod (a 10' copper rod buried underground) surrounded with ~0.5 tons of bentonite clay - nothing I have ever used in terms of power treatments has remotely made as much difference in reducing the noise floor, and at a much lower price to boot. I also think you have it right by powering your amps straight from the wall - I have yet to find a conditioner that definitively improves such high current equipment. Pretty much all of them, in my experience, decrease dynamics (probably on account of reduced instantaneous current draw). The only exception I have found (other than parallel conditioners such as the MIT Z-Stabilizer and Marigo Apparition, which are not in line with the amps) are really massive isolation transformers (preferably 10 kVA or greater), although they come with their own issues (i.e., several folks have noted isolation transformers have their own sound, adding a bit of sweetness for lack of a better term). I have enjoyed some success with regeneration systems, and unlike much "magic pixie dust" out there, they generally measure better with them in system than without. However, I would only use them with front end equipment (with the caveat that I have not tried the really massive PP3000, which I understand may address this issue). I am not a fan of balanced power, not necessarily for performance reasons, but code violation and insurance issues (I have a hard time imagining that my house would qualify as a "commercial or industrial occupanc[y]" under NEC Article 647.3, and can guarantee my insurance company would deny any claim based on my system lighting up if I had balanced power in there. With that said, we all take our chances with audiophile PCs, which generally are not UL listed). The one product category I am interested in getting more information on are the newer "grounding blocks", such as the Entreq and the Tripoint Troy - not sure I buy the explanation behind their particular application, but at least the theory of star grounding is something I understand. |
Asindc, in New Jersey where Matt lives, it is now the noon hour. There are still a full 12 hours to his Friday... I am confident that Matt will post more findings whenever he has time. Even a few more days of wait are little compared to the life of the Universe... 13.7 billion years and counting *grins!* G. G. |
I've decided to give up the life of audiophilio-Insanitoriim. From now on, I'm only listening to music through cassette tape on my 1984 Sony Walkman and Koss headphones. And with that, it will ONLY be Flock of Seagulls - Space Age Love Song. Good bye cruel world!!! What's the point anyway, in 2.7 billion years our precious Galaxy will collide head on with Andromeda galaxy and be ripped apart, sending the Earth and my entire tape collection to the nether regions of the ever expanding Universe. Alas..... Alak........Anon...... |
Matt, you are a real pessimist... You do not take into account the repulsive effect of the Dark Force on the standard gravitational interaction of our Galaxy and M31. We will have some exciting times some 2 billions years from now, when we are finally able to tell if we crash into our neighbor or not. So please.... Do squeeze in a new Orander review during the next 2 bils or so... Before everyone gets all hot and bothered making bets on the big event and forgets about servers and stuff. G. |
Gentlemen, be aware that this Saturday a very large asteroid is projected to pass us by at a distance not much greater than the distance of the moon, at a speed of about 78,000 miles per hour. If the calculations are wrong for some reason there may be a good deal less time left for Matt to complete his evaluations than we think. -- Al :-) |
