Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

The Joseph's ended my search. With his infinite slope, he takes full advantage of the metal cones strengths, without their break up/ringing characteristics they have a problem with outside their passband. Speed like an electrostatic with insanely real dynamic contrasting.

Old UnitedHomeaudio website, from when they used to carry the brand:

http://www.unitedhomeaudio.com/id101.htm

Hi Paul,

Joseph Audio has a great rep. Never heard them though.

Also, the suspension on the 10inch woofer has been stiffened and the driver itself has been upgraded. Its HARD for any woffer to keep up with the speed of Heils, especially the big Heil.

UHF mag in Montreal does not accept advertising, so are very trustworthy IMHO.

Contact me and I will send the article, even if its just for an informative read.

The bassplate corrects the Low end deficiency and there are no US dealers anymore. United Home stopped carrying them in favour of the far more expensive MSB and TriCell of Toronto is the distributor.

Try to listen for yourself, as I may work in your room as described.

If you read the blurb, $7K is a bargain. Perhaps its not a WISE sale for dealers, as they make more with other brands/models?

It has very little WAF and that restricts sales.

There is a story of a guy here who know his wife would hate it, but he loved the sound and sent her off on an expensive vacation. During that time he bought a pair and when she got back, he told her the return period expired and they wouldn't take it back. LoL

For a dedicated listening room, you dont need much WAF.

Hey Matt,

I think the Pearl 3 should be added to your audition list. The top cab that houses the midbass/tweeter is rear ported, but this should have very little effect with what you are trying to accomplish. The bass cabs are not rear ported.

These are very special speakers in that they provide a most expansive and very accurate soundstage, yet the artists are presented with energy, and "in the room" at the same time. I have never heard another speaker do both of these things so well.

I had a lengthy conversation with one of the U.S. Dealers of the Kithara. He told me that the low frequency extension is disappointing at best and there are many higher end speakers that outperform the Kithara in every way. He also said that the speaker is getting more expensive to import and hard to sell at higher then it's $6k retail price. The search continues....

Matt, contact me via PM at Audiocircle, compaudiophile or audiocircle and I can email you the pdf of the full UHF magazine review of the Kithara. (I have the print issue)

Nothing near it price will equal it, IMHO.

http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue59/Kithara.html

From a "for sale" online advert:

For sale here is a pair of the Oskar Kithara speakers, featuring the Heil AMT (Air Motion Transformer) tweeter, a completely design from ordinary dynamic tweeters. Not only does the Heil AMT have a huge frequency range - from 700 Hz to 23,000 Hz (!!), so no cross-over in the critical and easy-to-hear range - the highs are clear and non-fatiguing, unlike the many ear-bleed inducing metal tweeters in use nowadays. The up-firing 10" woofer provides all the bass you'll need
Set-up properly, these speakers image like crazy and provide full range sound, and with an efficiency rating of 94dB, you don't need a lot of power to operate them.
To quote Gerard Rejskind at UHF magazine in their review of the Kithara:
"This is a loudspeaker that any of the world's great speaker designers could point to with pride. Its highs and midrange are topped by only a few, very expensive speakers. Its bottom end is solid and more then generous. It will run with nearly any amplifier. It can work even in large rooms. It has a killer image. Is there anything on your list that I've left out? I have a feeling that if this speaker is ever produced in large numbers, its price will have to rise. At the moment it's absurdly cheap. That's what I'm telling my friends."

Phasure Dac Nos1A uses BB1704 (8 in total) and the computer up samples all to 784hz and does all the filtering in the digital domain.

Apparently it beats all the other R2Rs above according to their owners and one of them SOLD his PM2 Dac as the Phasure in his word totally thrashed it.

None of these Dacs play DSD in raw form.

I have also read some credible sources that said the PM2 was a MUCH better ADC than a Dac. Myth and lore aside.

I own Vapor Joule Black. Replaced Von Schweikert VR4jr in my system. These are the pair that Vapor showed at RMAF 2014. I heard Salk Soundscape 8 at RMAF 2013 but they didn't do it for me. Then I heard Vapor Nimbus at the same show which led me to talking to Ryan Scott and deciding on the Joule. The build was completed shortly before RMAF so I agreed to let them be shown (also got some hours on them).

Don P.

Vapor Audio information?

http://www.audioaficionado.org/general-speaker-discussion/30482-vapor-audio-perfect-storm.html

Anyone heard the Salk Soundstage 10 or the Vapor Audio Joule??

Thanks JH. That's a very useful list to have.

With my return from vacation I am packing up all of my currently loaned speakers and resting them for return to their generous lenders. I am also packing up my Der Muziks and hoping for a buyer.

I have not yet he time to plan auditions but I will keep you posted. I will say that the Coltrane Tenor is still my front runner. But I have some very good speakers to still hear.

R-2R list in production 2015:

Aqua HiFi La Scala
PCM1704-K (4) Dual mono

CH Precision C1
PCM1704 (8) Dual mono

Computer Audio Design CAD 1543
DAC Philips TDA1543/N2 (16)

Metrum Acoustics Pavane
Propietary "Transient" chips

MSB DAC V
Discrete (proprietary)

Schiit Yggdrasil
AD5791 BRUZ (4)

totaldac d1-twelve
6 discrete ladders per channel (600 vishay foil resistors)

Trinity Electronic Design Trinity DAC
PCM1704

Many differences with these (and any DAC) beyond D/A conversion of course. Maybe I'll add details if warranted. Any others for this list? Figure this may be interesting once Matt get backs to DACs.

My VAC 22.1 tubed dac uses the PMD 100 chip also. This approximately 19 year old product sounds more natural then my Oppo 105d which I use mainly as a transport for the VAC.
Not all old digital is surpassed by the latest gear. However, I will say that my Chord Hugo is superior.

Spot on Vyokyong, you said what I didn't have the patience to do.
One more thing though there was one more HDCD chip bought out briefly after the famed PMD-100 HDCD, the PMD-200.
It was used in my Redbook CD player The Cary 303/200 which also had what I believe to be the last and best R2R Multibit dac ever made in it, the almost extinct PCM1704K dac.
Out of the box this is a nice sounding player, but with some serious work http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v-52.html#post4404793 to the I/V and output buffer it is very hard to beat.

Cheers George

06-09-15: Mcondon
Are you in New Jersey? If so, I would give Brett Messler at Audio 202 in Far Hills a call. Some of the speakers on your audition list were also on mine. Brett carries some interesting brands you won't hear elsewhere. I auditioned Behold Tanara speakers and thought they were a lot better than Vivid, Marten, Wilson, Raidho, and Acoustic Zen. Behold speakers also would work well in a room your size. I have no affiliation, I am just a former satisfied customer and thought he might be in your locale. If you are not in New Jersey, sorry.

The Behold stuff looks interesting as well...although its 55K....:\

That is a very interesting piece of history Matt. It's sad how some quality companies can come and go.

Avalon is another good option (at least I am a fan). I am glad you spoke with Bob about T&F. He is a jewel, and its worth a sniff.

Coincidentally, I found a dealer in north eastern Connecticut who sells both T&F and BMC. I will call tomorrow and set up a demo. The dealer has the Ra I believe, but the distributor felt that Isis was a better option for my room.

I'll keep you updated. Unfortunately, the dealer is almost 3 hours away. I also plan to go hear the Avalon speakers (Time and Isis) and that dealer is in the exact opposite direction, South 2.5 hours. Sigh.

Why is PM the Model Two out of production?

Everyone who hears the Pacific Microsonics Model Two of course immediately asks the question, "Why it is no longer available?"

Here is the answer written by Dave Peck, who formerly worked for Pacific Microsonics and now works for Euphonix (which continued the manufacturing of the Model Two after Pacific Microsonics was acquired by Microsoft), and was intimately involved with the manufacturing and testing of both the Model One and the Model Two:

"The HDCD converters were discontinued because it became impossible to build any more. When several critical components became obsolete, Pacific Microsonics made a 'last time buy' of as many of them as possible to allow production to continue for another year or two, as well as buying a large number of other components that were expected to go obsolete during that time period. All of them did go obsolete. So, at the end of that time period, it was then completely impossible to build any more. It would have required such a significant redesign that it would have been better to start from scratch on a completely new design.

However, by that time, Pacific Microsonics no longer existed and the converters were being built by Euphonix (by the same crew using all the same materials, test equipment, etc.). Keep in mind that the Model Two was never supposed to be a source of revenue for Pacific Microsonics. They were essentially sold at cost, and the company made money by selling the HDCD decoder chips to CD and DVD player manufacturers like Rotel and Denon. Since this did not benefit Euphonix, it was not practical for Euphonix to fund the design of a new version of the product. And as was pointed out, Keith Johnson and the other designers were busy with other work anyway and would not have been available.

BTW, although it is not possible to build new HDCD converters, Euphonix has a significant stock of service parts so there is no problem getting one of these converters serviced.

And yes! Keith Johnson's recordings are absolutely amazing. Check out anything he has done on Reference Recordings. He's also just about the nicest guy you'll ever meet."

07-26-15: Mattnshilp
Agear - I gave up on my meds a long time ago. Alas, they only work until noon and then wore off completely leaving me in a rebound state far worse then what I started off with.....

Ha! I bet most of your fiddling occurs at night when the wife and kids are asleep. The lab is only open at night....:)

07-26-15: Georgelofi

Well Wisnon, I just got an order for my product from this customer, who has the "very best" of everything.

And when I asked him what his system was, this is what he listed.

"Pacific Microsonics model 2 (DAC) with a pair of Soulution 701 monoblocks that are driving Magico Q7mkII speakers."

Then I asked him if he would ever consider selling me the PM model 2. "He will never get rid of it and will be buried with it as nothing has ever come close to it", and he has very very deep pockets.

I then asked as a joke for him to leave it in his will, and he said "there is a very long queue for that, for me to stand in line.

LOL. That speaks volumes....

Well Wisnon, I just got an order for my product from this customer, who has the "very best" of everything.

And when I asked him what his system was, this is what he listed.

"Pacific Microsonics model 2 (DAC) with a pair of Soulution 701 monoblocks that are driving Magico Q7mkII speakers."

Then I asked him if he would ever consider selling me the PM model 2. "He will never get rid of it and will be buried with it as nothing has ever come close to it", and he has very very deep pockets.

I then asked as a joke for him to leave it in his will, and he said "there is a very long queue for that, for me to stand in line.

George

Agear - I gave up on my meds a long time ago. Alas, they only work until noon and then wore off completely leaving me in a rebound state far worse then what I started off with.....

I now swallow a Synergistic Research HFT twice a week. I find it helps my kidneys and liver to resonate properly while listening to classical and jazz. The newer HFT 2.0 X series, I find, if taken between 4:37 and 4:39AM on the second Tuesday of the month can truly tune my spine to properly reproduce Austrian Polka in a way I have never heard before. The habit is getting expensive and re-collection of the transducers is not at all pleasant, but there is no limit to the lengths that a true audiophile should be willing to go!!!

Grins!!!

-Matt

George,

Mani in the UK sold his PM2 a few months back. Great as a PCM ADC but not so good as a Dac he said. The phasure NOs1A totally thrashed it.

I have heard a few BB1704 Dacs in my time and still dont understand the fuss...

It must be me, I guess.

EA Overdrive SE

Long thread, so I can't recall DSP filtering and D/A conversion details on Matt's current DAC. Which chips are used for each PCM and DSD?

Appreciated, Josh

Mattnshilp, go to aaudioimports.com for reviews and dealers

Agear... I'll drink to that! G.

07-25-15: Guidocorona
Hey Agear, If I can point out a flaw in your otherwise excellent purplesome... I do not "splash', I usually slosh and wallow instead.

Concerning Matt's condition, meds won't help. According to Dr. Aloysius Qwantz Schmaltzenstein-Gavronsky, our collective Audiophrenia is a prionic infection. If you got it, you bought the farm. See:

positive-feedback.com

G.

Ha! Sloshing and wallowing comes with age and maturity like a fine wine. I aspire to roll as you do in cyberspace....:)

As for our collective condition, I whole wholeheartedly agree. I feign transcendence and am merely taking a cheap shot at my brother in crime Matthew.....

Hey Agear, If I can point out a flaw in your otherwise excellent purplesome... I do not "splash', I usually slosh and wallow instead.

Concerning Matt's condition, meds won't help. According to Dr. Aloysius Qwantz Schmaltzenstein-Gavronsky, our collective Audiophrenia is a prionic infection. If you got it, you bought the farm. See:

http://positive-feedback.com/Issue46/audiophrenia.htm

G.

If you can find one of these s/h they should be a bit of an ear opener.
I believe it used the next best Multibit ladder dac chip to the PCM1704 the just as good PCM1702, and HDCD is always a winner. And it does A to D conversion also as a bonus.

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/manufacturers/pacific_microsonics/pacific_microsonics_model_two.htm

Cheers George

07-24-15: Cerrot
Matt - I am totally impressed at how you are going about your speaker purchase (and cd/dac audition). You are doing it with class. If I were a dealer, I'd give you the keys to my store (and a nice discount).

That's one interpretation. If Matthew stayed on his meds, this thread would be a lot shorter with more focus....

07-23-15: Guidocorona
Thank you Agear for the link.

As for your purple oneliner... Masterful as usual... With just a hint of tasteless... A veritable Agearism at its best. ;)

Congrats, G.

Ha! Guido, I am glad you appreciated my underhandedness. :) I find that I have to be ever so slightly graphic with my insults otherwise they get lost in translation. A lot of people don't really read anymore. A lot of talking and no listening.....

Your perceptions of CH Precision have been shared by others that I know and trust....but again, it was at a show. My speakers have spit out wretched sound in a show setting on more than one occasion despite having great potential. Oh well....

Matt, I agree 100% with Cerrot. Most impressive and well thought out. Well done.

Matt - I am totally impressed at how you are going about your speaker purchase (and cd/dac audition). You are doing it with class. If I were a dealer, I'd give you the keys to my store (and a nice discount).

Heard CH Precision DAC at RMAF. I was very much looking forward to the experience because of the glowing reports I read about it. Unfortunately the system sounded grating and harsh, whithout a hint of what sounds "musical" to my ears. Asked the gent -- I believe that was the US distributor -- if the device was perhaps new out of the box and needed some break-in. I was told in no uncertain terms that the device was sounding exactly as it should... CH Precision products sound right just out of the box and do not require any break-in... And that clearly I do not understand good sound.

Left the suite befuddled... Went to visit the MSB folks... Amazing sound of music enveloped me.

Go figure!

G.

This also is a very highly regarded R2R Ladder dac, and it uses my fav PCM1704 Multibit dac chips.

http://www.ch-precision.com/products/c1

Here's a review on one of the mid range models, just look at those discrete Vishay ladder networks, yumm!!

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac3/1.html

Mattnshilp

"Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"

If you want this and have deep pockets then go with one of these discrete ladder dacs, flagship over $40K

http://www.totaldac.com/full_totaldac-eng.htm

Cheers George

Thank you Agear for the link.

As for your purple oneliner... Masterful as usual... With just a hint of tasteless... A veritable Agearism at its best. ;)

Congrats, G.

Guido, there is a long thread involving High Fidelity fanboys who are foaming at the mouth for 50 pages:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1335297906&openmine&Agear&4&5&st2450

I recommend you jump into that mosh pit and splash around with them...:)

All, sorry for OT...

A couple of months ago I started to play with the High Fidelity CT-1 power cords designed by Rick Schultz in Dallas (TX).... Ah yes, thank you Harve FPlanner2000 for the suggestion.

I was somewhat skeptical before connecting the creatures into my system because of the unusual coaxial construction and underlying technology based on abundant application of strong permanent magnets. But to make a long story short, these CT-1 cords are exceptional for all parameters I can think of... What floors me is that they are just the entry level PCs of the High Fidelity line.

I have started to post a multi-part review of the CT-1 series at:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1437589292&openusid&zzGuidocorona&4&&

Hope to see you all there... Now returning this fine thread to its regularly unscheduled programming *grins!*

Guido

Oops, sorry not that link this link.

http://vasiltech.narod.ru/files.htm

Here are some R2R ladder Mutibit Dac chips, my favourite the PCM1704K

PCM51

PCM52

PCM53

PCM54

PCM55

PCM56

PCM58P-eng

PCM58P-jap

PCM60P

PCM63P

PCM64P

PCM67

PCM69

PCM1700

PCM1701

PCM1702

PCM1704

TDA1540-Signetics

TDA1540P

TDA1541

TDA1541A-R1-S1

TDA1541A-R1-S1-S2

Here is the link to Vas's Dac chip site for the manufacturers data sheets.

http://vasiltech.narod.ru/files/_My_pdf-list.txt

Cheers George

PS: Please don't everyone hit the above link at once, you may take Vass's server out.

Cheers George

07-21-15: Jh901
R-2R ladder:

MSB DAC V
totaldac d1-twelve

Which of these other DACs are R2R ladder?

It takes time and you have to look at what is using what dac chip.
To gain some insight here is the greatest collection of what uses what in CDP and DACs Vasilli has complied a monster list here and you'll get to know which are the Ladder Multibit dacs and which are not. Not everything is there, but you get to know, and draw conclusions from the manufacturers propergander sheets.

http://vasiltech.narod.ru/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htm

Cheers George

Matt, first of all, thank you for this wonderful and very informative thread. I have been following your thread from day one and I must say this is by far the best thread on any audio related forum that I have come across:)
Anyway, I don't know if you have heard about Coincident Speaker Technology. Their speakers, although normally associated with low powered tube gear, can also be driven by powerful transistor amplifiers. The floor standing models have 12'' side firing woofers, so are quite narrow in size and flexible in placement. You can place woofers inwards or outwards, it helps eliminate standing waves and can be of benefit in your room. I currently have Antipodes DS Reference, Lampozator, Coincident pre and power amplifiers driving their second from the top floor stander, Total Victory V roughly in the room of the same size as yours, and have absolutely no issues with booming bass. The speakers just disappear, the sound is neutral, but at the same time is very revealing and detailed, the bass is simply amazing. I know, they are rear ported, but side firing woofers may negate the issue in your room.
Given the caliber of the speakers you are looking at, I think, you should give their top model, Pure Reference Extreme, a try: http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/Pure-Reference-Extreme.htm.
The have separate enclosures for the mids/highs and the woofers, are full range and have simple first order crossovers. Another advantage: having separate enclosures gives additional flexibility for placing them in a room. You can even get stands for mids/high module and place them separately from woofers.

07-21-15: Jh901
R-2R ladder:

MSB DAC V
totaldac d1-twelve

Which of these other DACs are R2R ladder?

Aesthetix Pandora/Romulus
APL DSD-S
Auralic Vega
Berkeley Alpha Reference
Boulder 1021
CH Precision C1
Chord DAVE
dCS "Ring DAC"
EMM Labs DAC2x
Empirical Audio Overdrive SE
Esoteric Grandioso D1
exaSound e22
Jeff Rowland Aeris
Lampizator GG
Nagra HD DAC
Playback Designs MPS / MPD - 5
PS Audio DirectStream
Zanden Model 5000

Appreciated, Josh

Zanden, CAD, Trinity, Phasure, Red Wine Audio (at one point) are ones I know of...

The bass was banging hard…Cant recall if they had stands… probably did and they had other speakers on rotation that did not have the bass issue.

Other than that, the ISIS sounded great.

07-21-15: Georgelofi

Guidocorona if I could chime in while your waiting for Coli's answer.

I find with Redbook cd, all the Direct Stream ones I've listened too are too relaxed/smooth and uninvolving, much the same as 1 bit, bitstream, delta sigma and ESS type dacs.

You notice this once you've heard a very well implemented R2R Ladder Multibit dac's, they have excitement, drive and boogie factor that doesn't seem to be there with the above.

Too bad the manufacturers are trying to phase out R2R Multibit dac's, they are way harder and more expensive for them to make, and they then charge up to 10 x the price for them.

Cheers George

I agree George. I think part of the reason people like DSD is that "analog" blunting of the upper frequencies in particular. It is harder (and more $) to go the R2R ladder route. I know Totaldac spends a lot of time and $ in that regards.