Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Hi Matt, ok going to get to the mail tonight , cheers Matt.

Berkeley DAC is up and running. I will hopefully get some time tomorrow morning to get first impressions. The USB to spdif is ready to go tomorrow. But for now I'm running spdif straight from the Aurender N10. Let's see which sounds better (USB to spdif with converter, or spdif direct).

Cables due in any day now.

Audiolabyrinth - pm sent. Dying to hear your cable suggestions behind the scenes.

Matt thanks so much. Many of us don't really care about the tech stuff quite as much. You know me fairly well when it comes to audio. It's only about the sound and how components and rooms work together. I'm ready for your cable reviews, but really want to hear about how the more expensive DAC's will perform. I'll try to get down your way one of these weekends. it's hard because it's college football season and my team plays important games for the next few weeks, lol.

Thanks.

So be it Mattnshilp, you can bury your head in the sand and believe in voodoo that is preached by some here.
On the title of this thread
"Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"

PS: Roses sound better as they have less jitter even when implemented well.

Cheers George

I have found that by planting red and green daisy's in front of the house, and blue and purple in back that it makes my music room sound fuller and more detailed. I tried white as I thought it would clean things up a bit but it made the sound too sterile.

One shrubbery on the side of the house tightened up the base dramatically and drawing with orange chalk on my driveway did amazing things for my soundstage.

Anyone have a similar experience?

PS - the Berk Ref is in the house and will be hooked up tomorrow to start cooking. A whole bunch of fun cables are on their way as well.

Ok. we are having a 50 post hiatus on George, r2r, AD or anything related to (or from) Geeorge in regards to r2r. I have put a massive amount of work into keeping this thread going and interesting. George, I consider what you are doing now disrespectful of my time and effort. You made your point over and over and we get it. There is nothing that you can say you haven't already said multiple times. Unplug your keyboard for a week and just enjoy whatever direction the thread goes.

George, no posts AT ALL, as a response to a technical or personal question! And NO POSTS in response to George guys! This is what kills threads. And I won't let it happen!!!

10-26-15: Ricevs
Who are you quoting?

Me Me! Take another look. From my very first post!!
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&openflup&2064&4#2064

No cheers with this nightmare George

Lies? Man, you are off the deep end! Who are you quoting? Must be God because you are so righteous! he he. But God would not have said "In My Opinion". You don't have an opinion....you believe you have the "truth" and you keep quoting other peoples opinions to back up your "truth". You must not have much of a life to need to be so right and to tell everyone on every thread about your "truth". I feel sorry for you. The real lie here is that you do not see how beautiful you are. You are the light of the universe! You don't need to prove anything to anyone. Love yourself.....it feels sooooo Good!

10-26-15: Ricevs
Most everyone else can see that implementation is more important then whether the DAC chip is R2R or not....not George...it is everything to him.....

From my very first post Ricevs, look first before posting lies.
"In my opinion when Redbook is replayed through a well implemented R2R Ladder Mutibit Dac, it's amazing, with detail, smoothness and transient attack that todays Delta Sigma, Bitstream, ESS ect ect dacs just can't match."

Cheers George

Ricevs,
Thanks for the informative post. Do you believe that Op amps with their NFB are a "necessary" part? Or is their impact on SQ relatively minor? I, as do most posting here believe implementation/talent is a major factor in determining the overall sound quality.

George-lo-fi just won't let it go. He believes he is right and will state so over and over again.

There was this guy on Audioasylum that would always say DVD-A sucks or something like that.....he would say it over and over....eventually we made up a #9 game........meaning when you post #9 it would mean "DVD-A sucks". After anyone would mention DVD-A then someone else would immediately post #9 and the guy had nothing to say.....it was already said. I think we can do that with George......since He likes multibit maybe we could give him #11......as in two bits....which is what his comments are usually worth....he he....just funning.

Most everyone else can see that implementation is more important then whether the DAC chip is R2R or not....not George...it is everything to him.....As I stated before Schiit has 4 $75 20 bit exotic r2r DACs in their $2300 DAC....no way it is going to sound as good as the $15,000 Berkeley DAC that uses the $7 Analog Devices thang.

However, all things being equal I would also vote for multibit r2r....however, they are rarely if ever equal.

Back in 2000 I made my Millennium DACs and the second to forth versions I used the 1704 r2r DACs....the first Millennium DAC used the AD1853 cheapo. The 1704 version sounded a little better but also only had one op amp on the output whereas the AD1853 had two. Very similar sound. Now, if you use a super digital filter with the 1704 or no filter then you get something much, much better....I was using the stock BB DF1704 filter....not good by todays standard at all.

When I made a proto back then using the 18 bit dual r2r AD1865 DAC chip with NO digital filter and one op amp on the output it creamed my 24 bit r2r 1704 DAC with discrete output stage.....slaughtered it. Implementation is paramount.....however, parts are important as well.

Sorry Matt, not with incorrect statements like this.
"What makes SD technology immune to jitter?"

And you originally asked, the title to this thread.
"Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"

Maybe another thread is in order.
"Best Delta Sigma based DAC for Redbook replay."

Cheers George

George. Let it rest. You made your point. It's getting a bit ridiculous.

I think if you do a search on this there are many posts, and it's the other way around. Multibit is less susceptible to jitter than Delta Sigma.

This is just one that came up.

" Multi-Bit
less sensitive to jitter than delta-sigma

Delta-Sigma
Guaranteed more HF noise
More susceptible to jitter
Can be susceptible to idle tones"

Cheers George

Matt, btw,ask calvinj what was the best sounding system he ever listened too, likely the late great Dave Baskins system, ask calvinj what cable's he used!

Matt, I always believed you getting world class cables would complete your journey, pm me please.

Thankyou Guidocorona.

What makes SD technology immune to jitter?

G.

@ everyone heard resonessence on the new bowers Wilkins d3. It sounded pretty good. Sd cards! No hard drive. Not power up ply from computer. No computer jitter. No problem

Sorry the output impedance is not 1.5kohm but 607ohm. Same same.

Cheers George

Dave the PCM63 is very similar to the PCM1704k I use, for a good zero feedback I/V stage to implement into your Theta ferret through this lengthy thread (attached) I started on the AD844 used in zero feeback mode for I/V duties.
For your R2R 20bit PCM63 dac's you have in it, they are spec'd at 2mA @ 1.5kohm and would need a three stack of AD844, and use it's own output buffer that's built in also three stack, then you will have magic with RedBook replay.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v.html

Cheers George

George & Al, Thanks. I'll revisit the Theta.

Guido & TBG - give us a quick summary on each of your impressions of the High Fidelity please. It's such a different product from all the others. But SO expensive!

10-25-15: Dgarretson
Georgelofi, do you recall if the Theta Gen Va is an R2R? I can't find a spec, but there are some on the forums who believe so. I have one in storage that I haven't listened to in years. If it's an R2R then I'll dust it off for comparison to K-01X.

THETA DS PRO GENERATION V
2 or 4 x PCM63P-K + 3 x Motorola 56001

Yes it is Dave, but it's old school, and may sound very good, could even give the K-01X a run.

But what it needs is implementation of current thoughts on the I/V (current to voltage stage) to be done on it.
As back then they just used text book stuff. With todays hiend I/V stages, if you put one into it, you'll be blown away for RedBook replay, and will sell the K-01X if you don't do DSD.

Cheers George

Matt, thanks for running this thread the way you have. Most of us have learned a ton. I put my money where my mouth is by purchasing the Empirical with all mods along with the mac mini server with Steve's power supply. When first reading this thread there was no way I was ever going to purchase from a direct seller either new or used. By reading and listening to everything I could, I realized that I don't care what's inside as much as I care what's inside my ears.

In putting my system together over the last two years I've gone from selling off three other systems and then rolling them into Vandersteen Treo's (about to become the Vandy Quatro;s I believe), the OSDE, Mac Mini, Basis TT with Ginko base, Rhea phono stage, Ayre AX5/Twenty and top AQ cables. Using a Marantz blueray for all discs right now. About to get the Qnap NAS I believe so I can really become a streaming household with my Linn Kiko (bedroom).

Listening to Joe Bonamassa right now. Live from Albert Hall. Apologize for the music reference (also getting tickets to his up coming Carnegie Hall gig). I listen at mostly low to mid levels due to dogs and family concerns. I'm about to post a thread on my thoughts as today I turned it all up. I didn't realize my Treo's could go as low as they did. This DAC just does things right. Not quite vinyl, but better than the other DACs mentioned here for me. I've heard them all, but not all in my system like Matt and not as much time with them. They are mostly excellent DACs that I'd LOVE to have.

I built the system and just recently decided to upgrade my power cleaning from the 2000 (the year) Richard Gray 4 plug unit I was given to the Synergistic Research Powercell 10 mk 2 I believe it is. From first plug in, I heard the lower noise floor. This Ayre/Treo combo really shows up flaws, but also gives you the truth in any changes in your system! I didn't think the power upgrade would do much, but for whatever reason it does in MY system and in MY room. I was going to go with the Shynyata equivalent, but then found out my dealer Audio Connection used the Isotech. I was in the store when a very well known cable manufacturer came to show how great his new 5k cable and 10k conditioner sounded.

System was Ayre digital player, Vandersteen Treo CT's, Ayre AX5 (not the twenty yet), AQ CastleRock speaker cable and the Iso tech (older and not the biggest one.

Short version:
all plugged straight from the wall in the store (older cabling I'm sure) the dynamics were great. Sound was awesome. Transients were there in spades. Clean sound. Leading and trailing edges of notes were almost as they should be. A bit short at times

Plugged into the IsoTech gave similar sound to plugged directly into the wall,however with the lower noise floor the leading AND trailing edges of the notes were amazing. They literally hung in space and decayed naturally like a real instrument. It's not a HUGE difference per say, but it made a big difference and was readily noticed by the three of us.

Plugged into that 10k plus conditioner the sound was truncated a bit. Much shorter leading and trailing edges. The music lost it's air. It was noticed in the first seconds of the first cut. Even the designer/manufacturer noticed. We didn't want to say anything to him about it to hurt his feelings, but I have no filters. He agreed and I'm sure that he's gone back to fix it.

Long and short for me, power was the last thing to do. It does make a difference in various rooms I've heard it in, but not all rooms based on what I've heard and friends of mine have shared. I don't have special cables yet other than one Basis cable I use for the DAC. I don't think you can tune your system with power either. I think often things change the sound, but not always for the best. I'm just thankful that the SR power cell doesn't limit the dynamics my Ayre.

Great thread Matt and thanks again.

"I searched for The Ultimate Tweak in archives but didn't find it. Can you provide a link?"

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&openflup&2627&4#2627

Keith, retail pricing of HFC Pro series is found at:

http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/power/pro.html

G.

I find the sound without any connection whatsoever to house AC is quite extraordinary. No AC power, no power cords, no transformers. Live and let die. :-)

"Car analogies only get you so much mileage."
Geoff, I "resemble" that comment!!!! That's exactly why my next car will be the Prius 2016... 60 miles per gallon *grins!* ... With standard audio setup, BTW.

Matt.... IMO, before you indulge in further line conditioning magic etc.... Why not upgrade your Burmies PCs. The new Shunyata Sigmas are obvious contenders.... But Norm brings up an excellent point.... HFCs are relatively new contenders, and they are more than worth careful examination. I have only explored the basic CT-1 and the Ultras, and find them to be astonishingly musical, resolving, and harmonically complex. The only caveat is that for high current amplifiers one must adopt a series that does not limit current.... This probably means at least the Ultras -- which I use on my M925s -- or an even higher series.

G.

Tbg,what does these high fidelity pro power cord's cost retail for 6ft?

Mattnshilp, well I certainly would not think you would want to introduce "magic pixie dust" to start a discussion. I have limited experience with anything you introduce and some of which I have never heard of. All that I have ever owned of these products is an IsoTek balanced power unit. It gave me a hum when I used my turntable. It was basically the absence of a ground at the root of this problem.

I have had about 15 different line conditioners dating back at least ten years, ranging from isolation transformers, filtering systems, magnetic filtering systems, and regeneration units. I had some of the Shunyaya equipment in my system but none that I ever bothered to buy.

As always, I find little to discuss as everyone hears differently and has different tastes. But I must say that I find no power cords that challenge
the High Fidelity power cords and that the obscenely expensive "Pro" or clearly the best. With these power cords, I hear more detail as they are so quiet. They allow a holographic presentation.

Finally, I think any dac that cannot play quad DSD will long endure.

On a side not, and a side note that I don't believe has been discussed, I'm very curious of everyone's opinions of line conditioning, surge suppression, power regeneration, balanced power, filtering, magnets and magic pixie dust??? I know I dragged everyone into the depths of my electrical design when I was wiring my room, but we never hit on this subject.

Let's keep it organized and break it up into overall room conditioning at the circuit box, high current conditioning for amps and low current conditioning for rack gear.

My room utilizes a dedicated panel and the only thing I have (actually, am about to install) on my panel for the whole room is the Environmental Potentials EP-2050 Surge and Waveform corrector ion module. I know Mike went all out for the Equi-Tech Balanced power breaker panel. Wish it had been in the budget at the time; maybe some day.

I am currently running my amps direct to the wall using Shinyata Zitron Alpha High Current Power cords but am considering adding an IsoTek Evo3 Titan high current conditioner with Evo3 Syncro power cable (they are very cool. The cable has a small balanced conditioner built right into the cable. DC filtering, no emi/rfi). Or a Shunyata Hydra Triton V2.

Rack is currently under control with a Shunyaya Hydra AV and all Shunyata Zitron Power cords. Although I will definitely be jumping on a Plasmatron for my digital when I can fit it into the budget. Seriously considered the Audience Adept Response gear and that's actually the direction my neighbor went, along with the IsoTek Titan/Syncro for amps (which I am all over borrowing and trying!).

Open forum as always. Nothing is the best, especially in the voodoo world of power conditioning.

Should be a fun side run while we slowly post about dacs.

10-25-15: Dgarretson
Georgelofi, do you recall if the Theta Gen Va is an R2R? I can't find a spec, but there are some on the forums who believe so. I have one in storage that I haven't listened to in years. If it's an R2R then I'll dust it off for comparison to K-01X.

Dave, I found multiple indications on the web that the Gen Va used the Burr-Brown PCM63, which was a 20-bit predecessor of the 24-bit PCM1704 discussed above. As can be seen in the PCM63 datasheet it was indeed an R-2R, and the theory of operation section on page 5 reads very similarly to the corresponding section on page 6 of the PCM1704 datasheet. The focus on performance around the zero crossing in both descriptions is reminiscent of the philosophy of the very expensive MSB DACs.

Matt, thanks for the light-hearted interlude, which I read and enjoyed.

Best regards,
-- Al

How long will the WireWorld cables take to break in? One supposes there will be a review in about 12 months. ;-)

That's the spirit Geoffkit! Lol....

My neighbor went all out and ordered a full set of top tier WireWorld Platinum Eclipse 7 interconnects, digital and speaker wire (literally tens of thousands in cable); and I get to play with all of it before we set it up at his place. They are coming around the same time as his Berk Ref. Fortunately, he also ordered the Berk USB converter so I will be able to try it with both the Mac mini and his Aurender N10.

And I still owe you all a review on that Waversa Smart Hub I was sent.

SO many toys, SO little time!!!

I searched for The Ultimate Tweak in archives but didn't find it. Can you provide a link?

And while I'm standing on my soap box, did anyone besides Mike read my comic interlude on 10/15 entitled "The Ultimate Tweak"? Maybe I'm biased, but I thought it was some funny stuff....

I try to lighten things up every once in a while since we take ourselves so seriously.....

Car analogies only get you so much mileage.

Matt - really looking forward to your impressions of the Berkeley Reference DAC. Thanks and keep up the good work!

Hi guys. For the first time on this thread, I'm putting an end to this.

No more R2R commentary and no responses. You have made your opinion very very clear. If you want to continue I encourage you to start your own thread about how awesome you think R2R is to the exclusion of all else.

As is my attitude towards life, this thread is "inclusive", not "exclusive". By nature you have an "exclusive" attitude and that's not really welcome here. Sorry.

Feel free to follow, and feel free to intermittently post your absolute R2R support to the exclusion of all else. But once, not for a half a page and not to the point of starting a pissing match.

Enough. It's done!

I will post a review shortly on the Berkeley Ref and I have some killer cables coming in to try and I'll post my opinions as well. Keep reading.

George, really who cares? You put waaayyy too much stock in the importance of the dac chip in the overall sound a dac produces. Vitus Audio compared all the best dac chips, including the BB PCM-1704k and TDA-1541A double crown and found the AD1955 chip no better or worse that the others. It was a slight shade vs night/day difference & VA went with the dac chips that best suited their needs.

Now you may question my knowledge which is fair enough as i'm not an Audio Engineer. But this came straight from Hans Ole Vitus during the Copenhagen High End show - "Overall the dac gives very little to the complete sound. Even digital part in total I rate gives not more than about 15% or so to complete sound. PSU and analog stage combined with pcb layout matters more".

I return to what I said before, a dac is more than a dac chip. It depends on the skill of the designer, the overall quality of the dac & ultimately on implementation (how the dacs are used in the overall circuit design).

I commented earlier which vaunted dacs the Vitus accounted for. It deserves its place amongst the best single box dacs in the world...using AD1955 dac chips. Have a good day.

Georgelofi, do you recall if the Theta Gen Va is an R2R? I can't find a spec, but there are some on the forums who believe so. I have one in storage that I haven't listened to in years. If it's an R2R then I'll dust it off for comparison to K-01X.

Just type in Multibit or R2R Ladder vs Delta Sigma and you will find articles by those with greater knowledge than most here, on which is the more "bit perfect" way of converting Redbook Digital pcm.

Here is just one from Loss Less, there are many many more I can post up.

"Among the several aspects which constitute D/A audio signal converter performance is the converter microchip itself. We carefully studied the available technologies and then, only after narrowing down the choices to only the four theoretically best choices, we built a device for the sole purpose of comparing these four technically best converter chips. In our device, all conditions were the same for all converter microchips.

The method LessLoss used to evaluate the sonic differences between these four microchips was as scientific as possible. We used electrostatic loudspeakers and headphones (almost massless) in order to minimize loudspeaker coloration of the signals. The opinions of highly regarded audio enthusiasts and professionals were unanimous. These tests showed that, at least subjectively, the PCM 1704 was easily the best.

Converter Chip Technology

We provide two links, one to the manufacturer of the PCM 1704, and one directly to specific data on this microchip.
•Burr-Brown
•PCM 1704
•What the hi-fi magazine Stereophile had to say when the chip was first introduced. (No, we aren't fortunate enough to be able to buy them in the thousands, and no, we don't use the cheaper version, the PCM1704U.)
•The PCM 1704 is out of production and represents the end of the era when quality was first on the minds of DAC engineering laboratories. In today's production, all remaining DAC's are of the Sigma/Delta type. These incorporate more technologies into one chip, including two channels for stereo, volume control, upsampling, and often even clock oscillators of their own. Production costs have been saved, but the issue of quality of sound reproduction is no longer the primary issue.

Many people do not know that the PCM1704 is classified into different categories of perfection. There is the PCM1704U, which is the least expensive and worst lot. Then there are better ones, which are marked PCM1704U-J and PCM1704U-K at the factory. We would like to stress that the LessLoss DAC 2004 uses only the best and most expensive PCM1704’s. We have chosen the best converter and then use only the best lot of these converters.

There is a fundamental difference between the way parallel multibit converters and the sigma/delta type work. The parallel type use a separate cascade of resistors and switches for each dynamic modulation of the audio signal, whereas the sigma/delta type (or one-bit, as they are also called), rely on a constant comparator to define changes in the audio signal's dynamic magnitude. Each method has its own advantages and disadvantages.

The main advantage of multibit conversion is that they are theoretically less susceptible to the influences of clock jitter. Their main disadvantages lie in their sensitivity to the influences of heat fluctuation.

The sigma/delta microchips have the advantage of being less sensitive to heat fluctuations, however, they react very readily to any amount of clock jitter.

We compared, using the scientific method of 'same thermal and electrical conditions', the Burr-Brown PCM1704U-K (parallel), the Analog Devices AD1862N-J (parallel), the Crystal CS43122 (sigma-delta), and the AD1955 (sigma-delta).

Of course, on the theoretical level all of these microchips are superb. Nevertheless, some differences are evident:
•Parallel multibit converters display a distortion spectrum which is more friendly to the ear. This distortion spectrum falls off at a lower frequency than it does in sigma-delta converters.
•At the lower dynamic levels, parallel multibit converters produce a much more esthetic sound than sigma-delta converters.
•Parallel multibit converters produce less sound coloration, and hence the sound is more natural, more lifelike.
•Details and microdynamics are more readily audible using parallel mulitbit converters.

Our empirical tests showed that these differences are indeed audible and that Burr-Brown's PCM 1704 is the very best converter chip in existence today. Earlier achievements in quality such as the legendary PCM63 have been bettered by the PCM 1704."

Cheers George

George, I think what you're espousing is a clear, laser-cut preference toward ladder/R-2R multibit and/or discrete dac chips to the exclusion of delta-sigma type dacs. It's a free world and this is an open forum. But I think there are other forums and threads where punters can read unbiased, objective commentary free of vested interests.

And since all delta-sigma based dacs didn't make it on your list, I'll check out and find another thread where it's not a closed book.

This is just a short list of hiend CDP/DAC's mainly for the best conversion of RedBook replay that use Multibit be it chip or discrete. There are a couple that do DSD if that's your bag, and there are many more that can be added to this list.

Trinity Dac
Ypsilon Cdt-100
Phasure
MSB Platinum
Total Dac
Audial (Peja Rodgic)
AMR top dac and cdp (Thorsten Loschec)
Light Harmonic
Exasound
Reimyo
CH precision
EC Designs

Cheers George

Hmmm... What would these "quality parts" be?

G.

10-24-15: Mattnshilp
I think we all agree that It's all about the design and implementation. Not the cost of parts. I used to own an Ariel Atom. It was a steel frame and a "cheap" supercharged Chevy Ecotec engine. Cheap parts all around. But it did 0-60 in 2.7 seconds and cornered better then any Ferrari or McLaren I have ever driven. Talk about instant smile. Maker!!!

We are lucky to have so many brilliant designers and so many different ways to skin the proverbial DAC cat. Tastes vary, deigns vary, ears vary and rooms vary. It's all vary exciting!! ;)

You have been brainwashed by the standard industry pablum. Just imagine how much better your magic dac du jour would be if quality parts were used?

LOl, well said Matt. In the end, all that matters is the sound to the listener and how the product fits into the audiophile's system for synergy.

I think we all agree that It's all about the design and implementation. Not the cost of parts. I used to own an Ariel Atom. It was a steel frame and a "cheap" supercharged Chevy Ecotec engine. Cheap parts all around. But it did 0-60 in 2.7 seconds and cornered better then any Ferrari or McLaren I have ever driven. Talk about instant smile. Maker!!!

We are lucky to have so many brilliant designers and so many different ways to skin the proverbial DAC cat. Tastes vary, deigns vary, ears vary and rooms vary. It's all vary exciting!! ;)

10-24-15: Ricevs

A couple of years ago Martin Colloms raved about the $100,000+ Audionote DAC that uses the obsolete 18 bit AD1865 DAC chip.....no digital filter at all. Says it can compete with vinyl playing CDs! I notice that Border Patrol has just released a $10,000 DAC using the same chip with tubes on the output.

That is where its at IMO. Need Lucas at Lampizator to implement that for PCM duty.....:)