great review Jon2020, I suspected that the out come would be as you exsperienced of the Esoteric K-01 player, let's see if matt comes to the same conclusion? |
Jon2020,
I think you're right with the 3 predictions. |
Thanks for the kind comments.
As cliched as it may sound, the proof is in the listening.
For the K-01 to perform optimally as a transport alone, the following settings are necessary :-
1. Digital out > CD
2. Upsampling > ORG
3. Digital filter > OFF
4. Analog out > OFF
Cheers! J. |
Hi Matt, you must be knee deep in your listening room project?, I was hopeing you may have more feed back on your Esoteric K-01 player to post here? |
K01 done burning in usb Monday. I'll put something up by Wed.
Room is progressing. All wiring done except few details with lighting. I'm recovering from running the 4/3 cable from mains to sub panel. My shoulder is killing me. A HUGE thank you to JEA48 on the 'Gon who has really helped me on the rights and wrongs to make the electrical audiophile grade.
They are framing out the rear soffit today and then putting up insulation. Probably rocking next week. It's amazing how the contractors think I'm insane for what this is and the meticulous detail to which I want everything done. |
Hi Matt, that is exactly why I did all my electrical!, Ha, he, ha, it's one thing to take bashing on the net, in person, they will be asked to never come back!, you are doing a fine job, congrats my friend! |
Hi, I thought I would put a giant killer for digital on this thread that all of you should check out and comment on here, although many of you may scoff about the name brand?, The Yamaha cd-s3000 sacd player/Dac $5,999.00 retail!, very interesting specs and cosmetics, given years ago exsperience with Yamaha, I bet this would kick the crap out of some bigger name, much more exspensive equipment out there, you think? |
Thank you Audiolabirynth, as I have never listened to this Yamy, I have no opinions on whether the Yamaha CD-S3000 will vanquish any giants or otherwise cause any explosive bowel movements in the aforementioned... But here is the device's home page... Blessed be the Googlesphere!
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/hifi-components/cd-players/cd-s3000_u/ |
Matt, I just spent the day listening to the Romulus at Audio Connection. He had Richard Vandersteen in for the day, so it was on his 7's with his own amp. The pre was the AR ref with phono...It was in the back room.. Best sound I've EVER heard. I was there very early and late and got the sweet spot seat. It was a ton of records as that's what Nick loves, but I threw a couple of my songs on the Rom from a CD I brought with me and it was amazing.. Still didn't do somethings a record will do, but it did a lot of stuff better. I was in shock as I've heard it a few times and this time it was really special. If the products you are listening to are better, then we are the winners. I think Digital is starting to really come of age. I'm still hoping that all in one solutions start to come out. Maybe units that you can control from a wifi app where you can hook up your own hard drive/NAS..that way you can better control your storage etc... I wish I knew more about digital, but I do know sound. If you are around the store, just stop by and check it out...It is worth the trip I promise. Wish I could hear some of the boutique products too as I'm sure they are awesome. I think this is why I'm always going to be a Brick and Mortar guy. Glad we have both options still. |
Cstooner, I read and enjoyed your description of the Vandersteen event. The speed and energy of live music is hard to reproduce. I also celebrate your support of the brick and mortar crew. I miss that experience. In Minneapolis (where I used to live) there was an older store that would let you take things home to demo. No substitute for that. |
Audiolab - Yamaha and $6K? You can't be serious.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve, you will find the Yamaha CD-S3000 at MusicDirect for $5995:
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-161295-yamaha-cd-s3000-sacdcd-player.aspx |
Have any of you guys heard the parasound cd1. I had it for a while. It was the best cd playback I ever heard. |
If the would have put a Dac in I would never had sold it. |
Ctsooner, was that the "basic" Romulus or the Signature? |
Hi Guidocorona, That is exactly where I seen this Yamaha ad,In the music direct, and the intergrated amp on the same ad pages is special too at $6,995.00, only 90 watts per channel, I say why not Yamaha get into our maket nitch?, my exsperience with Yamaha back in the 80's was a R-100 reciever that I use to own that was incredible with vinyl play back, it had mm and mc phono pre-amp built inside, and I am telling all of you, I know sound, to this day, that was the best reciever I have ever heard in my life time, for what it was, there was no better! |
Hi Steve Nugent, It is an Honor to speak to you as always, Yes, I am serious, Yamaha is playing ball in the field of High-end audio now, check out this ad in music direct or the Yamaha web page, the Yamaha cd-s3000 sacd player/dac is built very good, I was impressed for this to be yamaha! |
Technics is back with a bang too! |
How is your room rebuild and electrical coming along Matt? |
Wisnon, what are the Technics devices you obliquely refer to... And what about links to their home pages and/or reviews?
G. |
Guido,
The power of Googlesphere revisited :-
http://www.technics.com/sp/global/
Cheers! J. |
Yep... except that the Technics page site is not compatible with screen reading technology... Ah well *groans!* G. |
Guido, here:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/poland2014/17.html
and here
http://soundrebels.com/artykuly/reportaze/item/464-audio-show-2014-cz-2 |
I assume the Rom was the Sig version, but I honestly didn't even look. Since falling in love with the Ayre components in the last year, I've gotten away from tubes as I don't like rolling them. I spend way too much time listening to music, both recorded and live. I can't just get to my components anymore as I have MS and it isn't fun gettign on the floor anymore....This is what makes audio so much fun...there is something for all of us. I love the sound of the AR gear as well as the Aesthetix gear. I'm still liking an all Ayre system for what it does in the midbass and bass. Again, that's just me, but they are all awesome components. |
I just read a blurb about the Technics development on a Sonos forum. My first amplifier I got as a 11 yr old was a technics integrated. Fond memories.... |
Ctsooner, Ayre is a great company. I know they incorporated that new Thermaltrak transistor like Macintosh and that apparently accounts for a lot of their sonic merits. Is that used in your integrated? |
Room is framed, wired and insulated. I just wired the sub panel into the main today. I ran 4/3 Romex from sub to main. Did I complain about working with 10/2??? Once working with 4/3, 10/2 is cake!
The sub panel is a 125 amp, 20 breaker Square D panel running through the 4/3 with a 70 amp double breaker in my main commercial grade GE box. The Square D panel has 5 dedicated 20 amp circuits all from the same Line to maintain phase. I wired my 5 PS Audio outlets into their dedicated 20 amp circuits, labeled them accordingly and tested the entire room; utility outlets (running from the main panel), overhead lights (running from the main panel) and my dedicated circuits all functioning and no arcing seen. Phew!
I left the top 4 spots (2 on each side) to put a surge protection device in Line as the first circuits after the tie in off the main. The main panel has a whole house SPD, but I'm putting a second on on my sub-panel to be totally safe. This way I feel super comfortable running my amps straight into the outlet with no power conditioner/surge protection needed other then my Shunyata power cords.
I know its not DAC related, but I have learned a TON doing this and am more then happy to share my newly learned knowledge with any who have questions. It's not hard, you just need to be super meticulous.
Sheetrock next. Picking colors and carpet next week.
Trying to decide what treatments I'm doing now and later. Definitely corner base traps and first reflection diffusers. Probably something subtle on front and back to reduce slap echo.
Trying to find time to compare the K01 DAC with the ODSE. |
Hi Matt, very, very good electrical job you done there, congrats are in full order!, and Happy Thanksgiving to you and to everyone on this thread. |
The Romulus Sig, Allnic and Berkeley DACs are all on my list to eventually try. The usb/SPDIF conversion being the biggest hurtle to overcome.
Is the consensus among those that know the Romulus and Allnic that the internal usb input is top tier and lets the unit perform its best? |
I'll ask Johnny about the Rom sig when I speak with him this week. As for the Ayre, I'm not sure if my integrated has that. I have the 7 not the 5...The 5 has the diamond stage. They are now making their top amps with double diamond stages...their USB only DAC (now with DSD) is as good as any of the DAC's I've heard. For many of us, we can't afford the awesome DAC's you are listening to here in this thread. I'm still waiting on the right music server I think. |
UPDATE:
Finally got some time to compare the ODSE and give the Esoteric K-01 a good listen.
Most interestingly, I had the time to really give the different settings a listen on the K-01. First impressions were with short listening sessions. At times, I preferred the SDLY-2/4x settings and at times I preferred the DSD/off settings. The DSD/off setting is warmer and more musical but sacrifices high end refinement and extension. The low frequencies are more defined and the midrange has more of a tube warmth to it. The SDLY-2/4x setting is more articulate, more accurate and has significantly more extension in the higher registers. Overall I found the later to be a bit stringent and bright at times; although with full on orchestral majesty the SDLY2/4x setting seamed to reveal more of the music while giving up a bit of musical involvement.
i found more of a change when moving through the up conversion settings then the digital filter settings.
In contrast to my initial impressions I kept turning the settings back to DSD/Off unless listening to symphony where I just felt I was missing something with the DSD setting in play. For Symphony I chose Guido's 4x/SDLY2 most of the time but listener fatigue typically set in and I needed to change back to DSD/Off. I only burned in those settings, so for me to fully play would be another 500 hours with the FIR and SDLY1 settings. With vocals, rock, jazz and all other music, DSD/off was the obvious way to go. And this is on both CD direct as well as USB.
CD clearly sounded superior to USB, although not by nearly as much as one would have expected. I guess Esoteric didn't cheap out on the USB input. But with $21K retail to play with, they really should have enough money to go around and make everything pretty much top tier. There was a slight difference in levels between the CD and the USB input (even with my Mac set at full output). The CD was a bit louder but was easily adjusted with volume while listening. Dynamics were slightly improved and a sense of complexity more evident with the CD source, but VERY VERY subtle. sometimes I think I was hearing it just to hear a difference.
The background with the K-01 was pitch black. Like, black hole black. Zero, silence, the complete absence of anything but black.
ODSE back in play…. Black came back a tad, not quite black hole, but silent still. Like you knew the energy of the universe was there, but couldn't really perceive any physical culmination of that energy. But the magic that is the ODSE was there. Not overly bright, nor with mid's that stood out. There seamed to me to be more complexity in the music, more inner detail and more energy.
This was a very hard comparison as both are off the charts good. I need to sit down and do some more listening as I was pulled away shortly after putting the ODSE back in so my second half of the comparison was not complete….
I'll be back when I find the time. Hoping this Wednesday.
Cheers. |
Hi Matt, your K-01 findings seem to be the opposite of my own... I found S_dly2/4X to be most emotionally absorbing for long term listening, while DSD/OFF seemed me more of an seat-edge experience that I could endure for a limited time.
Now I am wondering if I perhaps did not give the DSD circuit enough time to break in.
G. |
They are the opposite of my initial findings as well. We spoke about what I heard off thread, and we both had similar findings. But today was very different. My findings were in contrast to my previous findings.
I look forward to my next session. That will help to reinforce my findings. I have not made any rash decisions thus far and wont start now.
What fun! |
"09-06-14: Jon2020
....I am currently using DSD for Upsampling and OFF for digital filter. It's strange as I am not a dsd diehard but somehow, having gone through all the different combinations, the dsd setting gets it right 90% of the time. This setting gives a wider and deeper soundstage, provides more body to and air around instruments, while notes decay that much longer.
My general impression for all the settings are as follows, depending on the overall sound of the system or recording to begin with :-
1. Cool, dry, lean, thin, fast -> FIR1/2
2. Warm, slow, boomy, laid-back -> SDLY 1/2
3. Balanced - DSD
........"
Hmmm..... |
Matt,if I had to sit and listen with such intensity as you do in your dac listening comparisons..." I think my head would explode". Sit,relax and enjoy your blessings. The music is what matters,not all of the subtle nuances.
Just a side... I would bet when your child plays the piano that the sweet music generated is not picked apart, note, by note.
Life's to short. |
I enjoy my critical listening sessions as much as my relaxing lost in the music sessions. And I feel the good people who have followed the thread this far deserve the same passion and intensity through each of my auditions. It's all good to me.
And I do love listening to my kids play. But I can tell you it's way better on the new Yamaha then the old Otto Altenberger. And now it's obvious how badly the music room needs a carpet and curtains. Lol. Always the audiophile..... |
Aolmrd1241,
While I do agree that it is about the music, I absolutely love music no matter how it is amplified, but I also love the arts that get us there. Hardware, for example, can get you very damn close to the event, if everything is correct.
Nothing wrong with finding the pieces that touch us in all the right spots. There are plenty worse addictions. :) |
Mattnshilp- "The Romulus Sig, Allnic and Berkeley DACs are all on my list to eventually try. The usb/SPDIF conversion being the biggest hurtle to overcome.
Is the consensus among those that know the Romulus and Allnic that the internal usb input is top tier and lets the unit perform its best?"
Don't know anything about the Allnic,but if you want to listen to DSD on the Romulus/Pandora Signature you have to use the USB input, otherwise, IMO, the USB and AES/EBU inputs sound the same.
PS- there's a Pandora Signature w/volume control listed for sale on Agon. |
Kana813, I wonder what that seller may be moving towards to for his next digital?, Now that is interesting! |
Matt/Guido: Thank you both for all the data on your listening experiences with the K-01. If anyone has a chance to hear the new K-01x, please let me know. I'd like to know if it is worth waiting for or if the K-01 gets it 100% and the x is simply a newer approach to things.... |
UPDATE:
Kana813 - you are the seller. Lol.
So what are you going to? And why the sale?
Zephyr - don't know what the differences are between K01 and the "x" variant. Newer, better algorithms, application of trickle down tech from their newest uber DAC & transport.... I don't know how that translates into audible improvements. Guido said that the X-01 to K-01 was a noticeable improvement. I know that the K-01 is partly upgradeable to an "x" but not completely (no, I have no idea what that means).
The K-01 is the best transport I have heard. I still choose my ODSE to play my Mac through, but I prefer the sound of the original CD spun through the k-01 and fed through the ODSE over running tunes from the Mac; it's a hair better, just a flea hair; albeit WAY less convenient.
I prefer the ODSE DAC over the K-01 with either CD or Mac as source. But it's a flavor thing. The K-01 is more technical and accurate while still retaining its musical power, but it's SO much more flexible with the adjustable settings. I could very very happily live with it forever and never look at another transport/DAC.
With that all said, I am putting it up for sale since I decided I still prefer my ODSE as a straight DAC, which will still be fed my Mac as my primary source. I need the $$$ since I have the opportunity to very possibly grab a Burmester 077 and 911mk3 for a great price. This would also mean my prized and absolutely fantastic Criterion pre-amp and Veritas amps (which sound absolutely amazing together, by the way) would also be for sale.
If anyone is interested in beginning talks on the K-01 (which is totally broken in), or my lovely Rowland Criterion or Merrill Audio Veritas amps then shoot me a PM.
I'm also going to touch base with my local dealer, John at Audio Connection, to see if I can borrow that Romulus Signature in the next few weeks for a day or so. I'm dying to hear it before I change anything!
Regarding the review/opinion: my listening session today reinforced my previous thoughts. I prefer the DSD/off setting for all music but classical. For classical I preferred Y2/4x.
I heard smaller differences between changing filters then changing sampling rates. I would say sampling rates were different types of ice cream (frozen yogurt, soft serve, hard ice cream) and filters were different favors of the same type; which makes sense if you think about it.
As I said I still prefer my ODSE as a DAC. CD source was ever so slightly preferable, but nothing remotely significant enough to give up the convenience of my Mac. I can get bigger differences with cable changes or room tunes. It was that subtle.
I'll keep everyone updated on my Burmester opportunity. |
Hi Matt, can you tell us more detail about your preference of K-01 S-dly2/4X over DSD/off for classical music?
Saluti, Guido |
Its all in the detail.
I found that the y2/4x setting (more 4x then y2) was more transparent and accurate then the DSD. You clearly give up accuracy for musicality going from 4x to DSD. There is a sense of tube warmth to the DSD/off setting that the Y2/4x doesn't offer me. Almost a tube vs solid state experience.
The y2/4x setting provides more accuracy, more high end extension (much more) and much better delineation of performers and instruments within space. Sound stage is about the same with both.
Jon2020 said that the S-dly settings are warm, slow, boomy and laid back. I find the DSD to be warm and more laid back. The S-dly settings are more cool and fast (as he described the FIR settings). Jon, can you describe the rest of your system? Im dying to see why we get so different results with the same settings. Are your settings well broken in? I didn't listen to the FIR settings, so I have no true opinion as they are not burned in….
Hope that helps…
Guido, the K-01 would freakin SING with your Aeris DAC!!!!! wink wink…. |
Matt,
I ordered an Amp Audio for my iPhone,so I no longer need an expensive hifi system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky9IIi5Qkoc#t=108 |
I got one also and will be selling my system soon. |
12-03-14: Kana813
Matt,
I ordered an Amp Audio for my iPhone,so I no longer need an expensive hifi system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky9IIi5Qkoc#t=108 Very clever ad. So it enhances audio by tuning to your hearing, tastes and the environment around you? Can it really be tuned to the audiophile negative OCD nerd brain? |
Matt,
We are actually in full agreement.
When I put up this list :-
"1. Cool, dry, lean, thin, fast -> FIR1/2
2. Warm, slow, boomy, laid-back -> SDLY 1/2
3. Balanced - DSD",
I meant that the settings to be used depends on the overall sound of a system or recording. So, if cool, dry, etc -> use FIR. If warm, slow, etc -> use SDLY. And in a well balanced system, the DSD setting is best.
Hope this clarifies.
As to your finding that the ODSE is better as a straight DAC, I predicted that in several posts back. :) What might improve your current SQ is the addition of a usb-spdif converter from the mac mini to the ODSE.
Cheers! J. |
I believe audio DAC is nothing but electronic technology and technology improve daily. The absolute top tier DAC is the latest and newest DAC on the market such as the Asynchronous DACs. |
Agreed Beewax, although that may be the vaguest generalization I have agreed with in a while…
Yes, the best is the best, until something better comes along…
Einstein was the greatest proponent of that concept - he felt that his theories of relativity were simply the most accurate approximation of how the laws of physics work. He openly admitted that his theories were wrong, but that it would take someone smarter then him, and with better technology, to understand the next step of those theories and create a better and more accurate approximation. But until that happened, his were the best we had.
In fact, isn't it our very nature as humans (que the impassioned music) to constantly reinvent our successes and push the boundaries of yesterdays advances to make them tomorrows rung on a never ending ladder of advancements and technological achievements? Is it not our goal, neigh our responsibility, to ever strive for that top tier to enjoy it's wonders for but a moment as we rise again to climb the mountain of infinite altitude! For we, as audiophiles, have placed upon us the most passionate and unyielding drive to hear beyond hearing and step through the boundaries of science and art to realize the very core of our own musical reality and being.
Until the next best thing comes out, it's my goal to find the best there is right now. I'm happy I have undertaken this quest. I have learned tons along the way and look at all the new, wonderful, friends I made along the way!!
Amen!
Hallelujah! |
Kana and Grannyring - I have already spoken with cardas and they are upgrading my incoming iPhone Amp lightning connector to pure unobtainium coatings, MBL has replaced the speakers with omnidirectional full frequency response 310 pound behemoths and the 1800 watt amps are from Boulder. Of course, the iPhone is now completely immobile, but who really needs to go anywhere anyway?!? |
