I like to look at the pictures and descriptions of the various systems belonging to our fellow Audiogon members. Personally I admire the most humble system. But some times I see one that just leaves me shaking my head in amusement.
I was looking at the featured systems today and found one that consisted of three components that reproduced music. A cd player ($7700), a integrated amp. ($4000), a pair of speakers ($10,500). Total $22000. A very nice system. But, and I mean BUT, another $71,431 in cables, tweaks, stands. Things that sometimes in the tiniest increments help in the reproduction of music.
There is a great analogy to this statement; "Using better components or keeping said components and improving them with wires or other tweaks".
You can find numerous other hobbies where people are willing to spend tons of money on an older product or upgrade to another product altogether. In the Corvette automobile racing or street mods world where I dwell quite often, you will see people adding cams, blowers, every fiberglass bolt on known to man and listed in Mid America Corvette catalog. Some of these mods have real benefits for the normal driver, others, well a radical and lopey cam for the street, or C6R racing wing for high speed track use, do not. But, the owners choose to mod their car and tweak it to suit their own personal taste and desires, regardless of the age of the car. I have seen people buy newer corvettes to get the latest and greatest version of Corvette, the ZR1 and Z06 are great performers in the segment in which they compete, and others, who decide that their older version modded to the hilt are what is best for them. In our Corvette club, some members do race, including myself. Some like to mod and show off, and others prefer stock. As you can guess, people who mod are putting money into their car and most do not care about the majority of the populace being overly concerned about their decision, or how much money they threw away and will not get back if they decide to sell or race their Corvette. So, if someone chooses to mod the heck out of their system with cables, tubes, fuses, or whatever, and throw money at their system for their own pleasure, I think that is great on them. Yeah, you might still come across systems where you might ask yourself, "what is that mod all about or that mod does what", but you should appreciate the fact that someone else is willing to explore and try unknown and unlikely combinations for the rest of us to see and or hear about.
I am still trying to figure out how to hook up $20,000 cables to a $99 all in one music box. I think the all in one has some "exotic" connectors and the cables will need to be sliced and diced to fit correctly, yeah, that's it. Ciao, Audioquest4life
And again, I believe that cables, sometimes, can improve a system. That is why I don't use zip cord.
Based on your post it seems what you did to improve your system makes sense. Now if you paid $2500 a 1 meter pair throughout your system, which what little you told us, it would add up to $5000. If that were true than my personal belief is, that since the idea is to get better sound, zip cord plus better equipment would be more bang for the buck. But, the amount you spent wouldn't fall into that category. It was well spent.
Onhwy61, Yes, I don't like yours. I like mine better, I made better choices, you should have bought what I bought. But, since your signature indicates a liking of Bob Dylan, I'll give you a seal of approval just the same.
Who cares ? It is the monies of this particular individual (as it is with all of us), and he/she can spend it any way he or she chooses. And if this individual hears and appreciates it all, so be it. That's high end audio for ya ! FYI, one of my "secondary" systems is based around a very clean and functioning NAD 3020 amp, and the amp is the least expensive part of the system. Now I know I can upgrade the amp ( and actually have other amps, amp/pre amps around I can use ), but instead I have opted to upgrade other parts of the system. So what ! Just my two cents....Thank you
If you sent 3 people into an audio shop with a selection of equipment and asked them to put a system together, I would put my money on none of them ending up with the same system. Cables are the same. And they are all right of course, assuming that you are looking at it from their point of view.
I bet you drive down the road commenting on the wheels in people's driveways. Personally, I don't know why everyone doesn't drive a pick-up truck. I'm just saying. ;-)
I'm beginning to think there is something to this cable/wire thingy. maybe I have been missing out on something fantastic. Is there a wire that will make my Lsi15's sound like the Wilson MAXX?? Just asking, put those flame throwers back in the arms room.
"Is there a wire that will make my Lsi15's sound like the Wilson MAXX??"
I don't think that there is a speaker cable that can do that. While there is no way to do all the scientific, double blind, etc. tests that some would demand (just the boredom alone would make it impossible) most of us ha made some effort to do some testing. And, I think, most of us agree that sometimes you can hear slight differences, most of the time no difference.
So, should you decide that you like the Polk sound but just want to improve upon them until they can compete with the Wilson MAXX, cables alone won't do it. You have to buy new power cords, interconnects, and speaker cable. They have to be expensive because only the expensive ones work, even though they are wire bought from bulk wire manufacturers, not some kind of new formula, and covered with dialectic material bought from bulk manufacturers, not some new formula. Then you must have hospital grade outlets (which only means they grab tighter so the plug can't easily be kicked out). You must go through a power conditioner not just a simple one to one isoloation transformer, which may be good enough for the extremely high tech industries but not for audio. Each solid state piece of equipment that doesn't reproduce sound through vibration unlike a Turntable, must be put on a vibration free stand that must be accompanied by a "scientific" white paper designed by someone who worked in NASA (all you have to do is a internet search, "Yup, there he is, says right here, janitor at NASA warehouse." And, that stand has to be very expensive or it won't work.
You do all three of those things then your Polk speakers will make your neighbors jaw drop, your wife who doesn't like music sit and listen or at least call out from three rooms away, and entitles you to make claims on how you were skeptical but, it made a big, no jaw dropping, no giant killing, no it was so much better you are going to keep the cables and buy even less expensive speakers because why throw your money away on expensive speakers or any expensive pre amp, cd player, tt, or amp.
If you don't read my posts carefully you would think that my belief is that cables, conditioners, stands, are a bunch of nonesense. A glance at either one of my posted systems show I know each can be helpful.
Wire can, in some systems, make small improvements. RFI aside. But, never the claims you read and most cables don't make the slightest improvement over what you can get at radio shack. The most common analogy that someone that understands electricity and the flow of electrons makes when trying to describe amperage is the flow of water through various diameter water hoses. When you go read the white papers on cable websites you almost always read some "scientific" explanation about the flow of electrons and words like choking, allowing the music to flow like there are musical notes trying to get through the cable. There is no choking of the flow of electrons, a slowing down or stoppage over short wire runs in audio. There is so little amperage relative to the gage wire we use. If not, what you would have is heat but that's another story.
I also believe that some power conditioning can help audio. When it works it is not what you hear it is what you don't hear. You can obtain the proverbially black background. But, it doesn't take expensive electronics in boxes with led lights. Wire windings, lots of windings, in other words isolation transformers make a difference that can be both heard and measured, this is not snake oil or voo doo.
Isolation stands. Grew out of the turntable years. Absolutely scientific and easily demonstrated to anybody. Music through vinyl is based on vibration, external vibration obviously needs to be minimized. But wait, we are solid state and digital now. Oh, s**t, I own a company that makes stuff that decreases vibrations, what will happen? I know, convince people that it never had anything to do with the transfer of sound from a record to a cartridge to a amp. through vibration. That like RFI vibration effects everything audio. Yeah, that's it. Poor electronics, poor speakers just add vibration killers.
very informative post. I tend to agree with everything you said in your reply. I did look at your system pictures and was wondering if your room is an addition to your home. Very cozy and beautiful area. It looks like something I have been planning to do. I was planning to enclose and extend my patio as a listening room. What are the dimensions of the room? A new room is what I really need to improve my system. I hope your medical treatment makes you completely well.
The small sunroom system is a room I added on to our house, the master bedroom.
It isn't designed as a audio room so the furnishings and dimensions came first and the audio came last. It is 14'x23' and I am not sure about the ceiling height. If I want to listen at night I use headphones. After I took the pictures I added a Woo Audio 6SE amp and some headphones. It is very comfortable to sit in the chair right next to the TT at night, listen to music, and look out into the yard. I made a living for 45 years lighting people and things. You can bet I spent a lot of time designing the lighting in my own back yard.
OK, you true believers; I am impressed by your self-control. You are better men than I. I can't control myself.
***Wire can, in some systems, make small improvements***
No, wire in any and ALL systems, can make small improvements. In some systems it can make very large improvements. There isn't a system that can't benefit, to some degree, by the right choice of wire. The better the system, the more obvious the wire's contribution becomes, and the more potential for improvement.
***But, never the claims you read***
Are you kidding me? "NEVER"? In my experience, the change for the positive that the right cable choice has made, as measured by what is important to me, can be more than what is claimed.
***and most cables don't make the slightest improvement over what you can get at radio shack***
Now you really are kidding; right? So, given that there are so many different cable brands used by so many of the experienced audiophiles on this site, we can extrapolate that most of them are gullible fools. Is that what you are suggesting?
There is no question that there is a lot of bs in the cable industry. No-one knows that better than the good cable manufacturers who make a good product. My ears tell me that good cable choices are just as important as any other choice in assembling a good system. That choice may be a very inexpensive one, determined in part by what sound you are after.
After a lot of years playing around with this stuff, I have come to the conclusion (and I don't mean to offend anyone) that those who diminish the importance of good cable choices are either not experienced enough as listeners, have some limitation (perhaps governed by some sort of bias) in their hearing, or have systems that are not revealing enough to make differences in cables very obvious.
Frogman, thank you. I am one of those experienced audiophiles that have formed a preference for certain cables in my system. Formed by comparing several brands, some common, some exotic and expensive, while trying to help a friend decide what he should carry in his store.
"Now you really are kidding; right? So, given that there are so many different cable brands used by so many of the experienced audiophiles on this site, we can extrapolate that most of them are gullible fools. Is that what you are suggesting?"
Nope, not kidding. Most make zero audible or measurable by any means difference in any systems. Some do, always slight but worthwhile if you are trying to get that last ounce of performance. My bias came after listening and not being afraid of the truth. In regards to the fools remark, yup, we are.
If you think that you can add cables that cost 3 times the amount of the system and get a better improvement than "upgrading" the system with the money to achieve a more satisfying sound, then have at it. Personally I think that the argument that you like what you have and am willing to spend that much to improve what you have is pretty weak. If it was true what is it that your improving. Exactly what it sounds like but more......more what?
If you are adding money to a system that equals or costs more than the system in tweaks and cables, then you obviously are not happy with the way it sounds.
Agaffer, this subject has been beaten to death so many times that it is not even funny. I am not about to engage in a protracted debate about this; I think I have made my opinions fairly clear. For the record, re your commnent:
***If you think that you can add cables that cost 3 times the amount of the system and get a better improvement than "upgrading" the system with the money to achieve a more satisfying sound, then have at it.***
I never said that, and that is not what I am debating.
In then end, there is seldom agreement. The generous, PC response might be: "to each his own", or "we will have to agree to disagree". I am not feeling particularly PC today, so my honest response has to be: I can hear it, it's important to me; you can't hear it.
Peace. And as someone we all know and love likes to say:
Frogman, you don't list your equipment so, I don't know if you have tried this. There is what we like to call "grunge" in the electricity that comes to our homes.
It can be audible in some systems. There is a way to remove it that is based on sound engineering and is used by many industries that have very sensitive electronics, much more sensitive than our audio equipment.
Isolation transformer. It isn't sexy, there are no led lights and it most likely needs to be put in a place where you can't see or hear it. Yes, they make noise, they don't transmit noise but they hum. And, they work.
I might be wrong but, I doubt if any of the expensive electronic power conditioners that audiophiles like find their way into places that need absolutely "clean" power.
Stereo Review proved years ago, that NO so-called golden ear could tell the difference between stereo amplifiers. I think the two used in the test was a multi thousand dollar Krell and a $129 Pioneer receiver from walmart. If you can't hear the differences in amps how,pray tell, can you hear wire. But, if you can, there is some guy offering one million dollars to anyone that can hear wire. One of the gurus at stereophile accepted the challenge but then backed out. He could ended this debate forever!!! what a missed oppourtunity!!. :) anyone need an extra Million??
Problem with these tests is you really can't set up one that works. There are just too many emotional and physical aspects. I believe it is true that we suffer from a very short audio memory. Then there is our mood, time of day, do we like the music being used.
I also don't believe that we can do much better with measuring devices. We really don't know what all the parameters are that we need to measure. That is why JA at Stereophile is often confounded by his measurements vs what the reviewer hears. I can explain why a isolation transformer works and how it doesn't add but subtracts. I can't explain why cable makes a difference but, I know that I can hear a difference. But, I call BS on anyone that stakes the claim that it is substantial.
Do you think situational awareness and the sense of sight play any part in what we hear or think we hear? In other words if we know what cable is playing and/or can see the cable, does that influence what we hear?
there is an easy way to test this. If another adult lives in your house, just have them change or not change a voodoo cable with lamp cord. Do it everyday or weekly or whatever, for as long as you want. Don't peek:) And compare notes at the end of the test, be it weeks, days or months. You just listen as normal and write down which cable is playing each day. at the end just compare notes. If you get it right, then you can hear cable. If you get it right, say, 70% of the time, you can hear cable, but, it also means 30% of the time you can't tell the difference between lamp cord and voodoo. something to ponder. Which is what I think Agaffer just said.
Frogman- It's funny that the subject of Stereo Repuke came up before my post. I was going to suggest, that we had entered a time warp, or that Julian Hirsch(of, "Everything-Sounds-The-Same" fame) had been resurrected, and was haunting those of us with even a modicum of auditory accuity. The idea that Stereo Repuke, "proved" ANYTHING, is simply H I L A R I O U S!
'The idea that Stereo Repuke, "proved" ANYTHING, is simply H I L A R I O U S!'
well, if the golden ears could not distinquish between amps with a price differental of tens of thousands of dollars, what conclusion do you draw? other than amusement.
Whose, "golden ears" were those again? OH YEAH; the deaf & dumb that wrote for Stereo Repuke! Especially notable; Julian Hirsch, who stands out as one of the biggest jokes of all time, with regards to Audio Journalism. I subscribed to that rag, simply to keep up with what was going on in the mid-fi market. After his statement(and I quote), "I never listen to live music, but- I have a pretty good idea, what it sounds like", I NEVER read the rag again. That HAD to be the most thoroughly ridiculous statement I'd ever come across, in ANY audio commentary. As I said; The idea that Stereo Repuke proved ANYTHING, is simply HILARIOUS!
but, it is sort of sad that a pioneer in the home audio field can be ridiculed on an so-called audiophile site. Too bad he is not here to defend himself. Julian was into this when it was a hobby for real. when you ordered kits to build your amps and speaker. Maybe he said all amps sound alike, because, well, maybe they do. what would his motive to lie? but like a lot of things, this has gone from a hobby to big business and finally to a racket. Your comments and attitude are indicative of the degree to which the snake oil salesmen and con-men and voodoo priests have come to dominate this so-called hobby. I am just thankful I came along when there were honest reseachers that provided the truth. BTW 'stereo repuke.' how cute.
I like it too! Kinda like, "Rat Shack." With regards to the, "all things sound alike" thought train; I'm certain there are many that cannot taste the differences between MD 20/20, a bottle of 1795 vintage Château Lafite Rothschild, and would absolutely swear: there are none. Are those that can tell you things like what year a grape was grown, in what part of France, and(specifically): what field, snake oil salesmen, con-men and voodoo priests? I think not! There are those that have trained their palates, and taste buds, to discern things others cannot. Likewise; Aural Acuity, system refinement/resolution, quality of source materials, listening room/speaker system tuning, familiarity with the sound of live instruments/vocals, in an actual acoustic, and one's attentions/training, vary greatly(if they exist AT ALL). I could cite other factors that would impact whether or not one might be able to hear the differences in cables, like one's concrete opinions(thoroughly mixed up, and permanently set), but- I don't want to hear any more loose quotes from Shakespeare. Happy listening!
rok2id - A simple question to you, do you really believe that all amplifiers sound alike? Julian Hirsh measured gear, he didn't really listen. He was the voice of the flat earthers of audio. Even back in those days when I was a music enthusiast, not an audiophile I found most of his reviews useless. The same bs every month with the same measurements and the same conclusions, what was the point? Do you believe that a vintage tube amplifier sounds the same as a cutting edge SS amplifier or the other way around? Have you ever really listened? You do a lot of pontificating but you really haven't said much about your experience listening. We've gone down this road before but before you advance to 2nd base you've got to make it to first, first, just saying, but other than what you believe about wire, which many on this site agree with, I'm not too sure these same folks would put themselves in the Hirsh camp concerning amplifiers so long as amp/speaker interface is in line. If he's your guru good for you, stay there and be happy but to me you are a rookie who adds nothing more than entertainment value in your posts. Have a nice day! ;^)
To Tubegroover: 'A simple question to you, do you really believe that all amplifiers sound alike?' I believe all properly designed solid state amps sound alike. I think Hirsch stated it that way also. Tubes amps are a different story. If you like distortion go tube.
'He was the voice of the flat earthers of audio. Even back in those days when I was a music enthusiast, not an audiophile I found most of his reviews useless.'
what an arrogant statement!!! YOU found his reviews useless?? Why? Because he didn't say the nonsense you wanted to hear? Are you saying there is a difference between a music 'enthusiast' and an audiophile? hmmmmm.
'The same bs every month with the same measurements and the same conclusions, what was the point?'
what was he supposed to do? change the measurements? state conclusions based on nothing? I guess he didn't talk enough about soundstage, detail,grain and all the rest of the voodoo agenda.
'Have you ever really listened? You do a lot of pontificating but you really haven't said much about your experience listening.'
I have been listening since my father brought home the 78's off the 'seebergs' and juke boxes. 99% noise and static and clicks and pops, but I listened. I have been listening since 1947. I remember most of the music, none of the equipment. I listened as a member of the high school band, I listened as a memeber of my college concert band. I listen to LPs and 45s and reel to reel and cassettes and now I listen to CDs. I remember the music, the equipment has faded with time.
'but other than what you believe about wire, which many on this site agree with, I'm not too sure these same folks would put themselves in the Hirsh camp concerning amplifiers so long as amp/speaker interface is in line. If he's your guru good for you, stay there and be happy but to me you are a rookie who adds nothing more than entertainment value in your posts. Have a nice day! ;^)'
I mostly only comment on wire. I have a million questions, but no one is interested. I don't really care where most folks put themselves. I know the truth when I hear it and I act on the truth. I think I have stated on several previous post that I was a rookie when it came to high-end audio, or audio in general for that matter. I lay claim to no knowledge about anything. But I hope you weren't trying to insult me bying saying i'm just comic relief. :) If you think i'm comical, I suggest you read 99% of the posts on this site. I know my input is not as weighty as 'what time do you wear', or 'why don't more people like high-end audio?' when I read that title I roll on the floor. :) But I will admit I was a little surprised at your tone. I thought you were one of the smart ones. you have a nice day also.
To Rodman99999 'Are those that can tell you things like what year a grape was grown, in what part of France, and(specifically): what field,'
Now, that is a skill every audiophile should have!!
There are those that have trained their palates, and taste buds, to discern things others cannot. Likewise; Aural Acuity, system refinement/resolution, quality of source materials, listening room/speaker system tuning, familiarity with the sound of live instruments/vocals, in an actual acoustic, and one's attentions/training, vary greatly(if they exist AT ALL).
you can say that again!! Where did you learn all these big words? It took me an hour to get thru your post. Had to look up every word.
I could cite other factors that would impact whether or not one might be able to hear the differences in cables, like one's concrete opinions(thoroughly mixed up, and permanently set), but- I don't want to hear any more loose quotes from Shakespeare. Happy listening!
"what an arrogant statement!!! YOU found his reviews useless?? Why? Because he didn't say the nonsense you wanted to hear? Are you saying there is a difference between a music 'enthusiast' and an audiophile? hmmmmm"
My point rok2id is that I found a redundancy to his commentary that proved to be quite boring over time and I stopped subscribing, probably in the mid 70. The difference between a music enthusiast and an audiophile. Well this is a bit more complicated because I believe there are many music enthusiasts that are not audiophiles and many audiophiles that are not really music enthusiasts. An audiophile by general definition might be described as one that is focused on the "sound" of reproduced music.
"But I hope you weren't trying to insult me bying saying i'm just comic relief. :) If you think i'm comical, I suggest you read 99% of the posts on this site. I know my input is not as weighty as 'what time do you wear', or 'why don't more people like high-end audio?' when I read that title I roll on the floor. :)"
Well, if the shoe fits, live with it:) No all I'm saying is that you continuously harp on the same points but I'm not too sure you have had the experience of listening as some on this site have, thats all especially if you think all amplifiers sound the same. A Threshold sounds like a Krell, or Spectral sounds like a Boulder? come on now....the differences may not be apparent to you but they certainly are to those that can differentiate and are willing to pay, who's arrogant? Me?
"I mostly only comment on wire. I have a million questions, but no one is interested. I don't really care where most folks put themselves."
Yes, you have a million questions and you keep on asking, often sarcastically I might add. As I've stated before, I personally don't care what anyone believes about wire. I'm sure some don't hear differences and in many cases neither do I but as I've stated before, some will agree and some disagree, I have heard BIG differences in wire in profoundly negative as well as positive examples. Why not quit asking questions as to the science which has been pounded to death. After all, how can a wire that simply passes a signal make an effect on sound? To some it does, to others it doesn't to some in some cases yes, to others in all cases no. You just have to listen for yourself but as I have previously stated as well, the differences will be more profound the more resolving the system. This is one area where questions can't be answered, you have to listen and make your own conclusions.
Yada yada about playing in bands, listening to recorded. Many of us have as well. I don't place any value on my experience playing music since I was 10 to the present as having any value on what I hear in reproduced audio. Playing in a band or as a musician is not the way you hear it when you hear as a listener as opposed to participant. Listening not playing (performing) is the benchmark for me. I have been to countless concerts of all genres of music over the years, from bars, coffee houses, outdoor arenas, indoor areas, churches, schools, opera houses, auditoriums, any kind of venue you can name. It is the way live music sounds, the characteristics that make it sound live that makes ME an audiophile, trying to capture that, it is elusive for sure but it is what drives me, not Julian Hirsh, Len Feldman, JG Holt, Harry Pearson or any of them. It is the search for the truth as I hear it, not what I am told or read.
Over time there are people I come to respect and trust whether it be audiophiles or rag reviewers. It is for the consistency of what they hear, not necessarily their tastes, this is most important but nothing is more important than listening for yourself. If you are satisfied with what you are hearing thats fine but cut it with the PT Barnum malarky and try a new line, you still have the same audience:)
'My point rok2id is that I found a redundancy to his commentary that proved to be quite boring over time and I stopped subscribing,.
If the man said all amps sounded the same, why would you expect his commentary to be so diverse. redundant / same there is a connection.
'I believe there are many music enthusiasts that are not audiophiles and many audiophiles that are not really music enthusiasts. An audiophile by general definition might be described as one that is focused on the "sound" of reproduced music.'
I agree. I have said so in previous post. I call them gadget people. I like equipment, but I listen to and for the music. Some attribute every thing they hear to a component, I don't, I praise or blame the cd or the speaker / room thingy.
'I'm saying is that you continuously harp on the same points but I'm not too sure you have had the experience of listening as some on this site have, thats all especially if you think all amplifiers sound the same.'
I have no basis to criticize systems I have not heard. My ideas about wire are system independent. I have never been critical of anyone's system, I admire most of them because they are all more elaborate and beautiful than mine. So, since there is no knowledge or information to be gained on this site, I do tend to harp on the same thing. I don't understand your point about being able to hear wire SOMETIMES. Why just sometime. If it can be heard, should be always.
'Yada yada about playing in bands, listening to recorded. Many of us have as well. I don't place any value on my experience playing music since I was 10 to the present as having any value on what I hear in reproduced audio. Playing in a band or as a musician is not the way you hear it when you hear as a listener as opposed to participant. Listening not playing (performing) is the benchmark for me.'
I will allow you to restate this. I assume you spoke in haste. It seems as if you are saying musicians don't know how to listen to music. I played as an adult, not age 10. Maybe musicians just know what to listen for. One of the old mags had a feature where they featured systems owned by famous music artist. very, very interesting. No krell:)
'If you are satisfied with what you are hearing thats fine but cut it with the PT Barnum malarky and try a new line, you still have the same audience:)'
I was not aware I have an audience. It was not my intention. If p.t. were alive today, he would be the largest wire manufacturer in the world. hahahahaha And I do respect you and many others on this site. In fact I must say that most of the people I have 'met' here have been outstanding folks. I never get mad or upset. As the General told the sgt maj in 'Good Morning Vietnam" Hell, its only audio. he said radio but the point is the same. just remember in the future, I have no idea what i'm talking about. So you can all relax. good listening
It took you an hour, to get through my post and you STILL completely missed the point of my comparison? SO- you are BOTH illiterate, and comprehensively challenged? A pity! The amp comparison you refer to, actually involved an OTL tube amp, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver(Jan '87 Stereo Review- 'Do All Amps Sound Alike?'), all of which differed from each other in measured performance and design as one could possibly assemble. You mention, in one of your lengthy/vapid diatribes, "Tubes amps are a different story. If you like distortion go tube." It's obvious that, even by YOUR impared judgement, the listeners that Stereo Repuke assembled WERE DEAF, or(at least) did not know HOW to listen. You were loosely quoting Shakespeare when you replied, "I think you do protest toooooo much!"(Silly me to think you so cultured, as to realize) Sorry, if I used too many multisyllabic words in this post. Grab a dictionary, and I'm certain even you, capable of muddling through it.
Not sure what Rok2id point of being here is? To save us from ourselves and to change our minds about buying something?
If you think this place is a joke then why do you post here? You have nothing to add besides you don't think amps or anything sound different?
Then you state you have lots of questions to ask, yet act like you already know the answer to everything?
Trolling seems more like the answer as you know (as I've read other posts of yours and always the same thing) that what you say is going to start an argument.
'It took you an hour, to get through my post and you STILL completely missed the point of my comparison? SO- you are BOTH illiterate, and comprehensively challenged?'
I did not miss your point, your so-called comparison was more like a very bad attempt at making an analogy. I am not illiterate. I can read, write and figure!!
'actually involved an OTL tube amp, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver(Jan '87 Stereo Review- 'Do All Amps Sound Alike?'),'
Ok,your memory is better than mine. The point is, no one could distinguish them. NO ONE can or HAS done it to this day. So lay off julian and stereo review. NO ONE can do it! Not even you. And this applies to wire also.
'Silly me to think you so cultured, as to realize'
Yes, that was silly of you.
'Sorry, if I used too many multisyllabic words in this post. Grab a dictionary, and I'm certain even you, capable of muddling through it.'
After reading it, muddling does come to mind. And get a dictionary and look up HUMOR, lest I think we are both comprehensively challenged!!
Every one I have read on this site is more informed on high-end audio than I am. And they have the systems to prove it. So who I am to save anyone or change any minds. But your post implies a desire for only like minded people to post on audiogon. Is that true?
"The point is, no one could distinguish them. NO ONE can or HAS done it to this day. So lay off julian and stereo review. NO ONE can do it! Not even you. And this applies to wire also." (re: OTL tube amp, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver) Are you selling any of whatever you're smoking? It MUST be KILLER!
"I will allow you to restate this. I assume you spoke in haste. It seems as if you are saying musicians don't know how to listen to music. I played as an adult, not age 10. Maybe musicians just know what to listen for. One of the old mags had a feature where they featured systems owned by famous music artist. very, very interesting. No krell:)"
Indeed you are right, it was written in haste and I didn't edit it, tried to after it was sent but the edit option was off. What should have been said is that many play music but to me playing music and listening to music are different experiences. As an example I remember years ago Sterophile had a reviewer that happened to be a musician as if that might somehow give him an edge at hearing live music and what his choices might be in choosing equipment. In any event, he performed a review on I believe it was the B&K 800 speakers, their flagship at the time. What was so silly to me is that these speakers were set-up in a very small space relative to the size of the speaker. The review fell flat to me because unless a speaker this size is going to be realized to its full potential it MUST be evaluated in an appropriate space. What ran through my mind is that this guy sits in the middle back part of the orchestra and maybe how the speaker performed in his room might have indicated how he likes to hear reproduced music. Why Atkinson, the editor would allow this is beyond me. Of course the speaker got raves from him but over time I found the vast majority of his reviews pedantic and useless until I stopped reading anything he wrote. I am NOT saying musicians don't know how to listen to music, they most certainly do, but they don't all necessarily listen for the same things as many audiophiles. Then again there are musicians that ARE audiophiles and many contributing to this forum. When I am playing piano it sounds much different than when listening to a performance in an audience, skill level aside, so it is not my basis when listening to a performance as listener.
Im going to give you a specific example of a highly regarded, very expensive ic that was forwarded to me to evaluate in my system. Actually I was given 3 pair of this i.c. When I say expensive I am speaking of insanely expensive, more than double the 2.5k retail of the wire I currently use. I started out, as I always do, connecting the source component to the pre-amplifier. There were two other listeners on hand when this evaluation was performed. When we first started listening it was IMMEDIATELY apparent to everyone that the sound was MUCH clearer, more forward, and more to the point, practically unlistenable, very etchy in the upper frequencies and unbalanced top to bottom. This compared to a more modestly priced cable I was currently using at the time. We listened for a full half hour then decided to add another ic from pre-amp to the Merlin BBAM (battery BAM I was using at the time) The effect we initially heard became more emphasized. We continued on running the last pair from the BAM to the amplifier, the issues compounded. You get the idea. What I am saying is this, I dont know what the cause was, break-in of the cable, synergy issues with the speaker (most likely), interference with the amplifier which incorporates high frequency radio signals as a signal carrier, or poor design but I will say that it didnt take golden ears to hear it. I am not saying this cable is bad or isnt be all end all that was ascribed to it by others but IN MY SYSTEM, it was amusical. I have had similar negative experiences with other cables as well, some quite expensive and very nice results with moderately priced cable. Generally inexpensive cable, basically bulk wire doesnt sound bad generally but doesnt convey the nuances that my system can clearly resolve with better cables and is generally lacking a great deal at the frequency extremes. The real devil lies in the frequency extremes in my experience, light airy natural upper frequencies and controlled natural bass as you hear it live, not accentuated as some speakers and amps tend to do. Some like this, personally I dont, again an issue of taste but driven by how I hear live music. An example of a cable that can really tame a system that is out of balance is MIT, I owned a pair designed specifically for tube gear and they werent cheap. I really loved them at first but realized over time that they manipulate the sound with their network boxes. To me a cable should ideally pass the signal through without adding or subtracting anything but most importantly do no harm. Some do better than others. The one I choose for my system was the best at doing this to my ears by far over the countless others I tried. So my conclusions are based on real world experiences in a familiar system. I am not one to get in the middle of this argument but only to convey personal experiences. Hopefully it provides some value, if not thats ok too, I dont care one way or the other, this isnt life or death, its audio. If you want to continue calling people out as somehow being deluded or tricked, have at it. If your hero is Julian Hirsh thats ok too, my conclusions about him were formed 10 years before I discovered high end audio and later an audiophile and was not formulated by anyone or anything other than Hirsh himself. If a person has gone down the same path as I have and come to a different conclusion, I respect what they hear. There is plenty of white noise on the internet and this site isnt immune. What I really value is learning from others their experiences and hopefully gain more knowledge and in return try to reciprocate. This is the true value of this forum to share and give informed opinions. You are not going to get the answer you are looking for concerning wire, at least the real science of what we are hearing because that chapter hasn't been written yet. You remember the last thread where a cable manufacturer gave his theories as to what was causing what we hear with an emphasis on timing issues. Just because something cannot be measured or heard by some does not mean it doesn't exist or can't be heard by others. Amplifiers clearly sound different, so when you harken back to the days of old when many but certainly not all believed this so, it tells me that you haven't listened to many truly resolving systems or you wouldn't dare come onto a forum like this and say such things. It comes across as somewhat foolish, I'm sorry but this is true. You seem to be a generally nice guy and I DO like your sense of humor but if you really want to get on board here, open up your mind and try to listen to some systems instead of spewing the same old nonsense. Maybe an audio show would be a great place to start; you will also meet some very cordial, knowledgeable folks.
Amps don't sound alike, but not necessarily $20,000 amp will sound better than $3,000. Certainly $15,000 single CD-player(for dumb-philes) will sound different, but would it sound better than $400? Will the money be spent well worth the difference? Only true believers can understand why nonsense makes sense.
'Are you selling any of whatever you're smoking? It MUST be KILLER!'
I don't smoke, and please don't resort to twisting the facts. He said all properly designed solid state amps operating within their operating parameters. Not a very high bar at all. BTW there is a guy offering 1 million dollars U.S. if YOU or anyone else can tell the difference between solid state amps or wire. Last I heard it was still on the table. Better hurry!!
I'm not twisting anything. Who said, "all properly designed solid state amps operating within their operating parameters"? The article that YOU cited, compared(again) an OTL TUBE AMP, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver. The differences in presentation, between SET, OTL and Push/Pull tubed amps alone, are obvious enough. The differences between typical Class A and Class A/B Solid State amps are also easy enough to hear, given decent associated gear and recordings. I can tell the difference between Sylvania VT-231s and a TungSol 6SN7GTs, in the driver positions of my Cary monoblocks, simply by the width and depth of the resulting sound stage. Whether ANYONE ELSE can tell a SS amp, tube amp or a wire, from a Bose table radio, is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to me. Enjoy your mediocrity.
Why is it that, when I read one of your posts, I feel more stupid than usual. :) You are one of the more thoughtful and knowledgable guys on this site. And you do speak from personal experience. There is no subsitute for that. I can't speak from exerience about high-end gear. The only components I have ever owned that could possibly be considered high-end were my tape decks and turntable. Nakamichi 700 and Technics 1500 rtr and my thorens 126 with sme and black widow and shure. That was a different era of course. They would be considered junk now. All my amps, preamps, CD players and speakers have been low-fi. So you are correct I have never heard a high-end system.
About my beliefs: WIRE: it's not that I don't believe or won't believe, it's that I cannot believe. No more than I can believe you can turn lead into gold.
Amps? I have not owned enough and no high-end to say, or, at least to be dogmatic about it, BUT I do believe in blind testing. it's as scientific as we can get testing this issue. It seems to my inexperienced mind that all of these issues would be sooooooooooo easy to resolve. Let people DEMONSTRATE that they can hear wire. DEMONSTRATE that they can ID Amps. Could all be over in an afternoon.
"you wouldn't dare come onto a forum like this and say such things. It comes across as somewhat foolish, I'm sorry but this is true."
No need to be sorry. I understand completely. But I do think 'you wouldn't dare' is a little much. Don't you?
"You seem to be a generally nice guy and I DO like your sense of humor but if you really want to get on board here, open up your mind and try to listen to some systems instead of spewing the same old nonsense. Maybe an audio show would be a great place to start; you will also meet some very cordial, knowledgeable folks."
The only thing I spew are facts. I have never typed IMO or IMHO, you see that alot on this site. I would love to hear a high-end system someday. Maybe the next show in Dallas. As for the people being cordial, of that I have no doubt. You and many others here, prove that everyday.
Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences in your post. Good listening
"I can tell the difference between Sylvania VT-231s and a TungSol 6SN7GTs, in the driver positions of my Cary monoblocks, simply by the width and depth of the resulting sound stage"
WOW!! this is amazing!! I thought soundstage was 'created' by speaker / speaker position and room interface. You better git yo self down to that patent office, now. And insure them ears while you are at it.
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