@unreceivedogma,
'I found the Shure V15 type III, IV, V and MR on eBay.
ONE of them is supposed to be the one, the others, also-rans.'
I'm afraid I don't know enough about them apart from their no nonsense sturdy all-round reputation. Domestic products can have all kinds of conflicting reputations but established products used professionally in broadcasting can be regarded as far more dependable.
When buying used it's probably just as important to have a look at the seller in as much detail as the product or the price.
I have never bought a used cartridge having always preferred to start with a new stylus, so I'd be pretty nervous too.
There are definitely some dubious sellers/dealers out there who tend to leave a lot of information out of their ads.
Perhaps they just forget.
On the other hand there are some exemplary sellers out there who will readily disclose the most minor issue or blemish.
A perennial problem for not only an audiophile is the conflict between the heart and the head. Right now I'm asking myself if I really need another CD player as a backup, just in case.
It's really irrational, and probably no more than a sign of a lack of focus, but there's something really warm and enticing about looking for an audio product. |
Yes. vdH. Been sending them there for decades.
I get nervous with the thing in the mail but there haven’t been any mishaps yet.
I hear there is a guy in NJ that is supposed to be good and that I could drive it to but I have no experience with him. |
Dear @unreceivedogma : If by Netherlands you mean vdH then you already have a first rate Onyx refurbishing.
Now, Koetsu is expensive because what you receive in return is a " new " Onyx cartridge and this could makes a difference for the better but you have to pay for.
Btw, best Shure quality performance cartridges were the Ultra 500 and the ML140HE.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Cd318,
I found the Shure V15 type III, IV, V and MR on eBay.
ONE of them is supposed to be the one, the others, also-rans.
Supposedly useless without the microridge stylus.
? |
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I neglected to add that I use the Onyx for serious listening, which is 95% of my listening, the Rosewood as backup when the Onyx is being refurbished, and the Benz for parties and certain monophonic and pop LPs from the 50s and 60s. |
My personal experience for what it is worth.
- I bought my first vinyl LP - Rolling Stones 12 x 5 - when I was 9. That is 57 years ago.
- when I was 14, I built my own “serious” system: Dyna PAS and Dyna 70 kits, Lafayette speakers, Grarard table and arm, Pickering cartridge.
- I graduated to Shure, Stanton cartridges in that system.
- my mature system can be found here: theaudioatticvinylsundays.com
- Over time, I have used maybe 20 different cartridges as that system evolved.
- for 25 years, I have relied on a Koetsu. First the Black. Then a Rosewood. Then an Onyx. I still have a Benz Micro from 35 years ago.
- I do believe in the law of diminishing returns. I did believe that there is no point in paying more than $1,500 for a cartridge. After that, it’s component interaction, and it is personal preference as I believe that we all learn to hear and listen differently. This was shown in a recent demonstration by Poppy Crum (neurologic scientist at Dolby) in the YouTube video “Audio Myths”. However, after continuous listening, the Benz sounded better than what came before it, the Rosewood sounds better than the Benz, and the Onyx sounds decidedly better than the Rosewood. (I still have never spent more than $1,500 on a cartridge: I bought the Rosewood used, and the Onyx was a gift from a California environmentalist musician as a thank you).
- a friend who has won 6 Grammys for his work with Deutsche Grammophon and has done some work on my amps for me (since undone by someone else, lol) swears by the Shure ... is it the V5? It’s no longer made.
- I send them to the Netherlands for refurbishing. Koetsu is too expensive, and even though Soundsmith is a 20 minute drive from me, It is still cheaper - a lot cheaper - to send them overseas.
- I have had a specific philosophical approach to the assembly of my system over a 50 year period. It hasn’t changed, it’s just been carefully upgraded, with costs kept under control by buying used or demos.
Hope that in some way addresses your concerns. |
I know I was at one where EAR's TDP had brought a Working Design for a ESL57 Powered by a Lethal Voltage Direct Coupled Amp.
To do this date I remain with a very memorable positive impression, and use Elecrostatics as a result.
I was also able to Audition the Launch of the Lorricraft Garrard TT at one of these Shows, I bought a 401 as a result, then had it overhauled by Martin Bastin and had a 125lb - 60Kg Granite Plinth Produced for it,
and adorned it with a Mounted a SME IV.
I only sold the TT and Plinth a few years ago, which was a regret, as there was a Sentiment with it.
I missed the Idler Drive and now have a replacement which is much more user friendly for the Logistics, when going on a Visit to another premises.
As said before, I support Social Events, as a extension of my enthusiasm for HiFi.
One Club Event I visit which is a 400 Mile Round Trip for me, has the meeting place in the Audition Room at the Premises of a Purveyor of
Hi End HiFi Devices.
All attendees devices that are brought for a Debut Presentation as a New Build, Improved on Build, or a Purchased device are auditioned on the Resident HiFi System.
The day evolves into a Period where the Vinyl offerings are the main interest.
This is a Event that is called randomly so no fixed dates, it is at the Premises Owners Discretion for when his time allows for it.
There is a interest outside of the Group Members and Professionals in the HiFi Industry attend, Directors of HiFi Manufacturing Companies,
renowned Custom Builders of HiFi, Very Skilled DIY Builder HiFi Enthusiasts, and even HiFi Magazine and Internet Site Journalists.
The Attendees know a thing or two, I feel it is safe to assume.
What is off most interest, is when a DIY Enthusiast Builder brings along a Homebuilt Device that has cost them a £200ish component value and how the impression it has made is very positive and there is a disbelief that the Device can perform as it does.
As the day unfolds in ascending values, it does not take long before the weaknesses in a Budget Build are starting to be indentified as the improved Devices will be clearly out in front.
I myself have been extremely impressed by devices brought for Audition, and have desired to learn more of the Devices that have left good impressions.
I have also brought along Devices for a Audition to which I received very good feed back, one of which was a show stopper and remained in use for a quite extended period, and not the usual audition time allocation.
Member of this Group, Company Director, Custom Builders, as well as the Premises Owner Auditioned my System at the event I exhibited at,
and in Private Conversation, informed me I was the most impressive System they had heard all day, and I had changed their pre conceived conceptions about certain devices, and they were going to investigate further.
One of those devices being a Rebuilt Cartridge.
The Rebuilt Cartridge has one other unintended Comparison that it was subjected to, especially when considering it was attached to a Tonearm that was pre prepared to show of a Rare Cartridge Design that was costing Multiple £££££'s.
The Outcome was quite unexpected and the agreement was unanimous for the Quality of the Performance Rebuilt Cartridge.
As said my Knowledge of how to Measure a Device is non existent,
I entrust that to other who are more educated and skilled.
I am pleased with how spending time with Individuals who can broaden my experience, has helped me to be selective in my chosen devices,
with my producing a System that for myself is thoroughly enjoyed,
and has been very well regarded by others, of all different backgrounds in HiFi, who have had their experience of listening to it.
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@pindac, 'Interesting, One of my early ventures over a few years, when I started my earliest investigations into building my System by visiting places beyond the High Street was at the Ramada Heathrow Show.' I've got a feeling I also went to that one, if it was the 1998 show! I think we had to catch a special tube train to get there as there had been a problem on the underground that Saturday. Ken Kessler gave a lecture that day and I remember being surprised by how much more erudite and learned he appeared to be than the persona he adopted in his magazine columns for Hi-Fi News and Record Review. Yes, a lot of the pleasure in this hobby comes from the social side with some of the warmest people you could hope to meet. Only last year at the Leamington Spa show there was a guy who had restored and rebuilt some vintage reel to reel decks. He obviously knew his stuff but it was wonderful the way he was willing to share his time and knowledge with us, who barely knew how to operate them. And it's good to see that Ken's still going strong. From his reference system, he seems unusually fond of the London Decca cartridges. https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/international/soundstage-uk/1440-what-is-your-current-refer... |
Dear @pindac : "
Idler Drive for their first time are able to enjoy a TT that is off a place of 'mediocrity and average... "
I'm not refering that idler drive TT are in the mediocity/average land because exist models that are really at the top as any BD or DD TT.
Exist TT DD/BD/ID models that stay in the mediocity/average place.
Funny because I experienced in the show rooms of a high end dealer at San Diego a very well received critics by the high end audiophiles that attended to the presentation/audiotining of my Essential 3160 self (with a friend. ) designed phonolinepreamp.
@cd318 : "
Isn't this hobby supposed to be about enjoyment? "
sure it's but things are that exist diferrent quality levels of enjoyment through room/system listen experiences.
Any true MUSIC lover can enjoy and has fun listening MUSIC through a walkman but that kind of enjoyment is different to the kind and levels of enjoyment you can have at your place and at your place what determines the true level of enjoyment is the true quality levels of your room/system.
Some audiophiles just want and like to listen music and more than that I can say to listen " sound " and that's all ( and is fine because that's what they are looking for. ) when I want to listen MUSIC as nearer to the recording and to the live MUSIC event I can achieve.
R.
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Interesting, One of my early ventures over a few years, when I started my earliest investigations into building my System by visiting places beyond the High Street was at the Ramada Heathrow Show.
A man who was very instrumental from this Era, in introducing me to what a System can sound like when selected properly was Luigi who worked at HiFi Confidential in Victoria.
He knew I had the Bug and was of little means to spend on the equipment he had for sale.
That didn't stop him from allowing me to experience his Systems over a few year period.
Who knows that might be where the Social Side of the experience was born for me.
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Back in 2003 at a show in London (Heathrow/Novotel) me and some friends got to hear a very expensive turntable set up which featured a £5k cartridge. I can't recall the names, perhaps my friends could, but it did feature a huge, somewhat ridiculously deep 6-8 inch platter and the motor assembly was attached by a long thin belt driven by a motor assembly several inches removed. It would have been funny of someone had enquired about a dust cover or potential hazards of combining audiophile pleasure and alcohol with such a Heath-Robinson contraption. But no one dared to disturb the demonstrators rock hard demeanor.. Nevertheless, it was still a memorable occasion as it was the first time I got to hear the Avantgarde Trios. Very impressive they were too. Nonetheless, the thing that sticks in the memory was the attitude of the man supposedly demonstrating the turntable. He was quite standoffish and seemingly very reluctant to play any of his prized 50s Jazz vinyl. Finally he reluctantly agreed to play one of his records but not before complaining that the cost of his cartridge resulted in about £5 of stylus wear each time he played a record. Needless to say, all of this intensity did not create a very good impression. Isn't this hobby supposed to be about enjoyment? Isn't it supposed to be fun? Why should we have to worry and stress about the cost of cartridge (or even vinyl) wear when we're looking to relax. As the OP said, 'My thoughts are that having a few normally priced cartridges around is a good thing, due to the wear and tear, and replacing or retipping would also be less costly.' I could not agree more, and this is the point where I would personally draw the line. Nagoaka MP-200 HiViNyws channel June 2018. https://youtu.be/E4G7hSUQoOc |
Who would have thought that offering a suggestion to a OP, would have resulted in my previous posts having snippets of previous supplied information being Cherry Picked and used as a foundation for a challenge on my serious lack of knowledge for knowledge of what a HiFi System should be.
I do have a Idler Drive TT, it is used for about 10 Hours a year in my system, but is a TT I am happy to take to other Individuals Premises,
so they can be introduced to and audition a Idler Drive in their Systems,
it is interesting how some who have had the experience, had sought out a Idler Drive following such a social get together of a few enthusiasts.
If I were to interpret a previous comment about my Idler Drive that is owned, it is a pleasure that there are enthusiasts who when experiencing a Idler Drive for their first time are able to enjoy a TT that is off a place of 'mediocrity and average'.
For the record, my daily in use TT is not a Idler Drive.
I put my hands up, I don't do Technical Analysis, like the multiples of other enthusiasts who don't either, but who still appear to achieve a Sound Quality from their Systems that they are finding very satisfying.
I am no different, as I have entrusted myself to those much more knowledgeable than myself, being reliant on their Professionalism and Skills, with the outcome being that I have produced my system to suit my preferences over many years, and as a result, own one that is in use regularly and thoroughly enjoyed by myself and all who visit to audition it.
As the most important part of listening to music for me is the Social Aspect, I like to share in listening to recorded music with friends, in the same manner I would at a live event.
I make the time to listen to music alone when I am trialling a device or a component, get a new album, or needing a Time Out, from that point on the music is a background music or part of a evening with my Wife,
or a dedicated session to listen tom the System with invited guests.
As I am also able to visit HiFi enthusiasts at their own premises, due to belonging to a 'Enthusiasts Group' and a Forum where invites are offered to members, these opportunities are a plus to my support for creating social and shared interest HiFi meet Ups.
This will also be very beneficial to me to keep my mind broadened and not insular when it comes to experiencing HiFi.
There are still times that I will visit a retail premises, especially ones that have very expensive devices for audition, as this is the level of replay that I aspire to.
I ensure my experience does not keep me insular in my HiFi experiences
and get great pleasure in experiencing the works of others.
I am totally confident there are numerous devices I have had the opportunity to audition, that have measured correctly in every parameter,
but I was not perceiving the device as a device to be aspired to by myself.
My system is tuned to me, and that is all that matters, even with a System that in my view is in a place that is totally satisfying to myself and that has made a very good impression on those who have visited to audition it,
I am still happy to learn and see what is available at the different interfaces that are easily accessible.
Is it necessary for there being requests made for a need to supply measurements to confirm that a Perceived Improvement in SQ has a validity.
Does a Person need to supply a measurement to reinforce the experience, that shows how when they exchanged a few Cap's and Resistors, a unimproved or improvement was discovered in a Perceived Sound ?
Does a Person need to supply a measurement to reinforce the experience, that when they exchanged a ABEC 7 bearing to a ABEC 9 bearing and replaced the Tonearm Internal wire, there was a
unimproved or improvement in the Perceived Sound Quality.
Are measurements required to support a exercise in
Tube Rolling NOS vs Modern Tubes, that ended up with a reduction from Six Matched different Brand Pairs, down to two types remaining as being strong contenders, those being a Matched Pair of Mullard ECC83 Tubes, that after careful consideration were outperformed to my Perception by a Matched Pair Mullard CV4004 M8137, which have remained in the device.
The same as stated above applies to any experiences being undertaken,
if there was a exercise in trialling,
NOS vs Modern Tube Rolling of 6SN7 and ECC88/E88CC.
Does it require a presentation of measurements to convince others that the preferred selection to be used was the correct choice for the individual ?
What 'in my view' matters is how the individual exposing themselves to the experience is Perceiving the Sound Quality, as they are the individuals who are unique in their preferences and will be living with their choices when made
The more a individual has made the efforts to have a broad experience of HiFi Devices and Systems, the more clear they will be in what they are hoping to gain from their choices being made with their budget constraints.
As said, I do support a Social Element of being involved with HiFi.
Not too long ago, I chose to attend a Enthusiast Event, where the Exhibitors Systems are brought to the venue and put on display for the Entry Fee Paying Visitors to be able to Audition.
At the above event, there where 500 Visitors who Paid a £20 Entrance Fee.
After a period of time from the off set my Exhibit Room was full and I could not manage all the requests for individuals selections of music to be replayed.
There was a need to invite individuals back to receive their opportunity.
The available seats were never empty between 10.00am and 16.00pm,
there was very limited standing space, and there was a queue in the corridor outside.
This was not expected by myself, but the rapport and enthusiasm and communication taking place was overwhelming and thoroughly enjoyable.
The experience of being openly informed in the room by the Visitors that in their opinion the System being experienced was the best in show,
was again for me a totally unexpected happening, I genuinely thought I was going to be meeting a steady trickle of Visitors.
How many of my visitors that openly declare, that when at my home my system is delivering in a very special way, to date all.
At a Exhibition where 50 Systems that are owned by enthusiasts, and are put out for Audition by 500 Visitors, I do not know how many of those 500 visitors listened to my system, but I know how busy my Exhibit Room was.
How many of those visitors was impressed with my System,
I do not know ?
What is known is that there was a 'Rebuilt Cartridge' being used, it had no usage by myself, as it was to be set up on the TT by a friend when at the Exhibition, at the commencement of it being used the
Rebuilt Cartridge had approximately 20 Hours usage on it,
as a result of the rebuild Technicians Testing.
I am usually extending and broadening my own personal experience with HiFi and have used this experience to help with my choices I have made for my Systems Devices, as well as selected Interface components.
On the Day I chose to Extend and Broaden the experience of my System by introducing it to many other individuals, that decision and experience may over time prove be my most memorable day ever in being a
HiFi Enthusiast.
I really don't feel the need to supply a Trio of Cartridges Brands or a Selection of Rarely used Materials, that a Marketing Department and
HiFi Reviewer will refer to as a 'Exotic Material'.
To be helpful though to those who might be interested,
If there is a interest showing for some visiting this thread for gathering knowledge about Cartridge Development and
Modern Design Conceptions as a result of the availability of materials that will support the design,
then the Mutech Hyabusa will fit into this role in my opinion.
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Dear @mijostyn : "
Just because it sounds OK does not mean that it is."
it's not only the quality level measurements tools but what you stated: sounds OK ,because any designer/manufacturer of cartridges always makes several voicing tests in all its top cartridge models using more than one true state of the art room/systems.
You know what all those means and due the dead silence @pindac attitude he does not has yet the knowledge about. He likes talks with out any single fact that can prove/help what he said not even the name of the donor cartridge.
I know that his analog rig belong to the mediocrity/average levels with a not so expensive idler drive TT and a refurbished/up-graded vintage AT tonearm that btw I owned that same model along other AT tonearms.
Where has he the true foundation to stated what he stated here? .
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @pindac : A gentleman in this thread asked to you: "
@pindac What is "exotic" for you ? Could you recall an exotic cartridges you're talking about and tell us why do you think they are exotic ? " maybe you did not read it, no answer from you. Other gentleman posted to you: "
The only problem pindac is that you have no idea what you have unless the "rebuild engineer" has some very exotic test equipmment. Just because it sounds OK does not mean that it is. " and again no answer. I wonder why that attitude from you. https://audiofederation.com/dealership/prices/magic-diamond/index.htm
Do you think this an exotic cartridge and why yes or why not ? You posted : ""
I had a MC Cartridge rebuild that consists of a Specific Attention to the performance of the MC undertaken by the rebuild engineer, combined with exchanging the Damping/Suspension to a design that belongs to much more expensive models in the MC Brands Exotic Models and a choice of Exotic options used for the Cantilever and Diamond........................................... I have a unique Exotic Equivalent Cartridge for a Cost of 20% of a Branded Exotic MC's retail price. "" I can say you have a refurbished new cartridge exotic or not. ""
Equivalent Cartridge for a Cost of 20% of a Branded Exotic MC's retail price. ""
Can give us at least 3 today cartridge models by different designed different cartruidge manufacturers? I'm trying to understand you: For you Is it the Highphonic MC-D15 an exotic cartridge ? Thank's in advance. Your answers appreciated. R. |
Dear @pindac : Do you know why exist so many different transducers models? cartridges and speakers?
Because everything the same transducers always makes the differences for the better or bad, down the re lives the " audio magic " ( if " magic " ezxist. ).
A transducer like a cartridge has its own signature, every time we change the cartridge we listen a different room/system quality level MUSIC performance reproduction.
That's why some of us own more than one cartridge where each one gives us different nice " color " and with any of iouyr samples exist our MUSIC enjoyment.
Your advise is good for you and I respect that but I'm in total disagreement with because at least me can't stay married for ever with the same transducer/cartridge it does not matters what.
To live with only one cartridge means that I already have the dream sysem quality performance level: turntable, tonearm, phonolinepreamp, amplifiers, speakers, room conditioning, cables, sour electrical system power, etc, etc and that may MUSIC sound priorities are already fulfilled.
Aditional to all those IF in the future I want it to make a seriously transducer up-date then : to whom can I sold that no-comercial identity cartridge?
As I said not for me but the OP is 100% with you, good.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
@grgaudio
About stylus life, have you tried ultrasonic record cleaning followed by heroical rinsing? I have done this, and my Koetsu shows very minimal wear at just under 1000 hours (photomicrograph). Can't imagine that it's going to be playing badly any time soon. |
@drbarney1
Can’t say that I agree with very much of what you wrote.
1. Trans-Fi Terminator is a low pressure system which is virtually maintenance free. Air noise is undetectable in the listening position. It costs $1500.
2. My calculation says that a groove speed of about 50 cm / second corresponds to a distance of half a mm in a millisecond, while my stylus tip is less than a fifth of that. But why do you think this is a problem? A cartridge is offset in the tonearm to approximate tangentiality, whereas a linear tracker provides near perfect tangentiality. Sounds better to me.
3. A tonearm like the Trans-Fi allows precise setup. Precise setup means that you can readily tell the difference between cartridges, and the difference between a $1k cartridge and a $10K cartridge is large. IMO.
4. Nakamichi obsolete? My CR-7a is still capable of fine recordings in 2020. That said, sorry yours was worn out after a year - but must have seen a whole lot of hours. As noted, my CR-7 still meets spec today. |
Back in the 1970s and 1980s, the rubber suspension material would harden in 3 years while the stylus was still good (1000 hours). This was due to the smog in Los Angeles area. By the 1990s and using my highly modified SME IV, cartridges (stylii) lasted 2,000+ hours and I upgraded cartridges. Now I need to replace a worn stylus and was warned never to give it to Soundsmith. The worst part of being an audiophile is installing a cartridge. Getting the overhang is easy with an SME. Getting the correct VTF is not so bad but the VTA is a pain with an SME and takes many hours, especially since cartridge break-in is about 50 hours. I HATE the process.
I will not pay more than $3,000 for a new cartridge. I have the option of trading in a Benz Ruby 3 for an LPS since Benz stopped rebuilding them to everyone's regret. I really like the sound of the Ruby 3 so the LPS should be as good or better (per reviews). The alternative is a Kiseki Purple Heart or maybe a Dynavector. The Koetsu is too expensive and not matched to the arm. Lyra's and Ortofon's appear to have more detail than a meaty sound. I like a cartridge to sound like the Benz.
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drbarney, that was a jump from rebuilding cartridges. But hey. Does not matter how frictionless you get a linear tracking arm. The large horizontal mass plays havoc with even the stiffest cartridges not to mention getting them perfectly level is next to impossible. But there is a way to do it. Check out the Reed 5T and the Schroder Lt. No compressors required!
Back to Cartridges. If you can find a good cartridge with low hours from someone you trust go for it. Otherwise I personally will only by a new unused cartridge. I have never rebuilt a cartridge because there is always something else I want to try. Like I said, from a rebuilder you never quite know what you are going to get. |
I find something almost Zen about tangential tracking tone arms, playing back the record the way it was cut. But there are several reasons I would not do it. First is the need for near frictionless air bearings, the noise of an air pump and air hissing through the holes, and the added maintenance requirements. Second is a difference in tracking angle makes the music from one side of the groove offset by a millisecond or fraction thereof, equal to sitting an inch or two from the center of the sweet spot equal distance from the speakers, Third is the cost of five figures for something I do not believe I would hear even if I concentrated very hard trying to hear it. In the case of a very expensive cartridge I think I would experience a point of diminishing returns long before $7000, complete with its limited life span. There have to be greater differences in concert hall acoustics and orchestras than there are in a cartridge costing hundreds to a thousand dollars vs ten thousand dollars.Years ago I made the mistake of buying the ultimate cassette recorder by Nacamichi, (if I even remember how to spell it) and in it played beautifully when it was new. A year later it was worn out and a few years later it was obsolete.
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Cartridges depreciate more quickly than just abt any other component or part (used tubes?). This also presents opportunity. There are a lot of high end cartridges floating around the market at prices that are a fraction of original purchase costs. Some cartridge manufacturers offer rebuild services, but at extreme cost. There are several independent cartridge rebuilders who have well earned reputations for excellent workmanship and quality. And charge much less than manufacturers. It becomes very cost effective to purchase a used cartridge then commission a rebuild from one of the independents. Total investment is generally 33%-60% of the cost of a new model. Just something to think about. |
I am in agreement that there are going to be Cartridge Brands that might prove to have a requirement for a part that is only obtainable through the Manufacturer, or a Second Donor Cartridge.
My experience was as sure footed as one could want.
The Technician is known for their Workmanship and
their Freelance History of working on the Cartridge Designs for a Cartridge Producing Company.
No work is to undetaken until a suitability check is carried out through a a pre' rebuild Inspection.
There is a chance the the Technician carrying out the Inspection may have to report back that a certain part is in a condition that is unusable and the rebuild will not work to the level of the required Specification.
( I know this is a possibility, as I know of Cartridge Owners who have been supplied this information)
This Service when used myself, does not produce a Cartridge that will Play Music after a Service like some known Services, which in cases proves to be a lesser quality than the Manufacturers Original Product,
but has a sound quality that is perceived as improved over the poor condition Donor Cartridge that received a treatment.
The rebuild Service used by myself, is a Rebuild Service that will supply a Cartridge in its Original Build Spec, but having undergone extensive Quality Control Measures, from microscopic intensive cleaning, through to replacing the Parts with Manufacturers Parts, followed up by multiple hours of measurements and adjustment, to ensure the Cartridges Specification is exact.
Or in my case, the Rebuild Cartridge is Producing a Cartridge that has the original Generator Coils retained, with a complete exchange of Parts
that are used on much more High End/Exotic Models,
each configuration being chosen, is selected with the Technicians understanding through discussion with the Cartridge Owner preference for the Cartridge Presentation.
The Cartridge will undergo a Microscopic intensive cleaning, along with the Rebuild, and on completion will put through multiple hours of measurements and adjustment.
I have become a fan of this Technicians work, and after having investigated as much of his Rebuilds as possible through Web Searches can only say he has many supporters.
To help the OP with their investigations, I have sent a PM to show them the contact for the Rebuild Service and assess the supplied information for accuracy.
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As the van den Hul for 5 years and the current Phasemation US agent, I would like to share what I know to be true.
i have recommended that normal life of a stylus 1500 to 2000 hours or use assuming that it set up properly.(anti-skate and azimuth and SRA)
van den Hul recommend tracking weight at 1.35-1.5 gram you should get another 500 to 1000 hours
The suspension is made out of elastic materials Just like there is no NOS rubber tire suspension elasticity changes over
If you treat your cartridge properly you should replace the suspension when you replace your worn out stylus. If you have an old cartridge with low hours if it 10years old replace the suspension The rubber get hard and brittle
I hope that helps
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When listen to the records, the entire pass has too many points
that contribute to the correct reproduction or severe loss. Different
cartridges has different electrical and mechanical specifications. These
specifications constantly change and degrade with every record played. Unlike
digital, when you can hear the same sound again and again, Analog (LP) will
play the same record differently with wear and tear effect included.
A cartridge can track and reproduce information from LP even with
10,000 records played, However, the lifespan of diamond stylus is limited to
500-1200 hours. It will play after 1200 hours, but the faces of a diamond
stylus will change the shape and it will produce distortion within the actual
sound pattern. The longer the stylus used, the less soundstage separation,
correct mid-high harmonics and eventually mono-stereo will be produced. Cheap and
low quality MM styluses can hold on 50-300 hours only. But from some posts on
Audiogon they are "GOOD FOREVER"
The dempfer and suspension could hold on up to 20 years, but have
no correct proven functioning pass 2 years.
This is reality of phono cartridge
building/using. Also most of the producers would say opposite to protect their
sales. After all, not many people could invest $5K-$10K in new/upgraded cartridge every 2-3 years. Making Aidas cartridges,
the most challenging task was to find the correct dempfer material. We spent 5
years experimenting with numerous manufacturers, producing our own composites
ets. Still in the process, but we got probably the best dempfers on the market,
that we actually can tune our cartridges to needed specs. Some materials we got
hold on specs already for 5 years. There is a hope...
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Just one caveat, pindac. There are some proprietary elements which are not available to anyone but the manufacturer, e.g. platinum magnets used in higher end Koetsu's. No way, I would think, to duplicate that, and several approximate substitutions of different elements would be an exercise in R&D. Not that I'm against it, I prefer DIY, but it's not always plug and play. |
If you are looking at TCO, Van den hul's have 2 advantages:
1) They have a special shaped tip that supposedly lasts between 25-3500 hours, 25% or more longer than ellipticals and the like because of the way they sit in the record groove. Mine just completely wore out after 9+ years (definitely over 2500). There was no degradation of sound until the very end when it sounded terrible for one song and then wouldn't track at all. This benefit is for all VDHs, not just the most expensive ones.
2) Van den hul services them and brings them back to original condition and only charges for what is needed supposedly for a very reasonable fee. Since the ugly virus, shipping in and out of the Netherlands is an unreliable venture so they bent over backwards and replaced it with a brand new one for not much more than a complete service that assumes replacement of all wearable parts. I think this is due to their new US distributor, VPI, really emphasizing customer service and satisfaction. A pleasure to deal with - even with a person coming in with a table from their competitor, Rega (luckily, I live within an hour of their offices - a really cool place). If I ever look to make a tt change, they will have a new client, assuming they can get their gimbal arms to be competitive with Rega.
A non-economic advantage - VDH cartridges simply present the music as intended IMHO - accurate, fast, and tight. Not warm, lush, dry, humid?, crisp, or whatever coloring terms you like to use or may like. If you want it to sound like live music in a studio or real live music from a live album, they are a great choice. And a dealer told me that in a system that they won best in show in the last year - cost no object, the cartridge and phono stage were higher end VDHs, part of a $400K system that supposedly beat multiple $1 systems. |
@pindac,
You get an A+ for your reply. You literally interpreted the essence of my post quite literally. Thank you for your insight and providing the information about how you rationalize your cartridge purchase decisions. Definitely going to take that strategy into consideration.
Ciao, Cheers, Tschuss
Audioquest4life |
The only problem pindac is that you have no idea what you have unless the "rebuild engineer" has some very exotic test equipmment. Just because it sounds OK does not mean that it is. |
My reply was intended for audioquest4life who was inquiring about owner/user thoughts on a using and maintaining a expensive cartridge.
The OP has expressed that are in their view, a Cartridge is a consumable (hence the tyre reference) and their inquiry is based on how expensive cartridge owners choices are made to maintain it when the time arrives for this.
The OP expressed a lust to own a High End Cartridge, but was also wanting to know if it was a Sunday Best type approach for some owners who may user a lesser value cartridge for general listening.
My suggestion to the OP is a method to enable them to get to a Place where a Cartridge that is of a Unique Build, that will comfortably sit with a Cartridge that is a £-$ 3000+ retail value MC.
For the outlay if this as a option is to be considered, it might also seem that this is a Cartridge that can be used for all occasions and may not need to have a Second Cartridge as a Substitute, if that were so, then the OP would see a further benefit is saved outlay.
I myself entered into my latest Cartridge Experience with similar thoughts, as I have low usage Hours MM's, High Out MC and a MC.
Not one of these spare Cartridges has been put into service since my Rebuild has been in use.
The sale of one of the spare Cartridges will be more than enough raised funds to cover the Retip for the rebuild when the time arrives.
I personally would refer to a Branded Cartridge costing over £-$1500 as a Market Place entry into offering a High End/Exotic range from a Company that produces Cartridges Model Range.
I also would refer to a retail value for Branded Cartridges more than £-$3000+, as being a Company's representation of setting the bar for the level of High End/Exotic on offer from their Model Range.
I hope my post to the OP has helped them to consider an alternative avenue for investigation, and help them see for a reasonable budget there is a option to achieve a very attractive MC in both Purchase Value and Performance. |
@pindac What is "exotic" for you ? Could you recall an exotic cartridges you're talking about and tell us why do you think they are exotic ?
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It would seem at present there is consistent pricing for the MC Cartridge Brands are seen as the affordable of the more exotics.
£-$3500 - £-$4500 would be seen as a Price Range where a discount is not available.
My following report is the not so common route taken to producing a Exotic Cartridge,but there is much to be achieved, for a very fair outlay.
The only limitation I can see in this as a method is the Generator Coil
Metal will remain.
In my case that is a Six 9's Pure Silver.
I had a MC Cartridge rebuild that consists of a Specific Attention to the performance of the MC undertaken by the rebuild engineer,
combined with exchanging the Damping/Suspension to a design that belongs to much more expensive models in the MC Brands Exotic Models and a choice of Exotic options used for the Cantilever and Diamond.
With the Donor Cartridge Costs added to the Build Cost, I have a unique Exotic Equivalent Cartridge for a Cost of 20% of a Branded Exotic MC's retail price.
This is a method worth consideration, as with a retip of the rebuild
(when required) at a later date, the unique rebuilt cartridge and follow up retip can easily offer 2000+ of replay for approximately a cost of £1000 if both cartridge services are carried out by the cartridge owner.
I am so impressed with this build, having heard it A/B compared to a lows hours Donor Cartridge and a much more Exotic Cartridge from the same brand.
I did not hesitate or rest until I had secured a second identical Donor Cartridge, that is now in storage. |
This is getting tiresome, Raul. Why not give it a rest? |
@audioquest4life : I had first hand experiences in two different home systems with the I/O .
Those high end Europe dealers and friends obviously have not attended very often to listen live MUSIC seated at nearfield or are a little " deaf " about because the I/O is very far away from that experiences when other PS are a lot nearer to it.
I can't questioning to you because that's what you like, you are the owner.
As I posted before mine is only one more opinion trying to help but all is about you.
Anyway, as I posted our priorities are different.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
@rauliruegas
Thank you for the feedback; however, I never said that I disliked the Benz LPS...it’s been my reference cartridge for years. In fact, while I was living in Europe, I have had high end dealers tell me that my system is one of the best sounding they have heard with the Benz LPS in my system. It was not for a sale either, just an invite to listen. Please don’t misconstrue what I stated about the Benz LPS, it works excellent in my system, as does the SS. I have not stated or it has not even been suggestive that I have any problems with my system. My friends most often want to come over and listen to music but not want to drink heavily, play cards, or play pool.
I would not fixate on the I/O as it does what I need it to do with the cartridges I own. I am sure open to experimenting and learning from others and that’s what I plan to keep on doing. What I have learned thus far in my audio journey is that I am the only one who can make emphatic statements about my listening environment and equipment, and those dealers, friends, and family who have heard the system as well.
I appreciate your experiences, but don’t fixate onto something that’s vaguely referenced or not even stated as fact, and then sensationalize that topic by falsely interdicting your opinion on a supposed topic that is never even stated. I can see your passionate about how you approach musical bliss, some of us, are fire and forget guys...and appreciate the simplicity of getting to where we need to go in order to enjoy the music. That’s what you want, that’s what I want, that what we all want.
But, the VDH still gets the “Das Boot” or “Your Fired” sentiment from me. We can really stop talking about the VDH now as this thread was started about costs of ownership cartridges. I made the mistake of mentioning that I was testing the VDH, and should have posted a new thread. Thanks.
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RE the Koetsu, that thread is, "Who needs a diamond cantilever". |
@lewm : the I/O has 1Kohms as output impedance and the RIAA frequency deviation has a swing of a very high 0.5db. So it’s not only the VDH loading but this issues too that impedes the VDH showed at its best. I know very well the I/O even the 4 chasis one.
R. |
Thanks, Raul. As you may recall, I once owned a Colibri, and it occurred to me that it and most other VDH LOMC cartridges I know about do or did not have particularly low internal resistance, which is what one would want if loading at 20 ohms. But listening tests are the most important criteria.
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Dear @audioquest4life : The resonance frequency using the V with the LPS is lower than 8hz and using the Jade is over 12hz.
mijostyn touched a critical issue that we have to take care carefully if we want true quality performance high levels.
The Jade and LPS can’t show to you their true quality performance, yes it can sounds but that’s all .
You prefer the Soundsmith over the LPS and is because you are given the SS what it needs and you did not give what the LPS is asked for.
Your cartridges compariason is not totally fair between the SS and LPS and certainly not even to the VDH. In the other side I hope that you make your comparisons at the same SPLs because our ears are extremely sensible even to 0.1db differences.
@lewm normally that VDH model comes with internal 13 ohms, so loading at 20 ohms is out of question but he is just testing it . Btw, even that is hiper-analytical and that's why I posted exist an overall set up problem.
aq4l, if you are using the I/O then exist a critical problem to fulfill any LOMC cartridge and does not matters those 80db on gain because this kind of gain figure is achieved through at least 5 different circuit stages where the cartridge signal must pass through and where at each one is degraded our beloved audio signal and that overall degradation means: higher noise levels added at each circuit stage, added, distortions, added..., added...,. and the I/O inverse eq. is an additional problem.
All those if you are using the I/O but if not then never mind.
Only trying to help in objective way, not a subjective as you said.
R. |
@mijostyn,
”experience is always the best teacher.” I absolutely agree on this statement.
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There was no internal impedance listed on the spec sheet.
Here’s what was listed for loading values:
Load Impedance: 20-47k
Optional load impedance: 20-200
Its packed up and heading out today. I concluded my experiment. As we all know, a lot of this is about synergy. I just don’t feel it in my system. At least I can say I tried it and know what it sounds like on my system.
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Recent bought a degritter and I can attest to its value. Beside just an overall better sounding record, the quieter the phono stage the more you can appreciate the reduced noise floor it creates.
A Decca cartridge will work well with your SME. Once you hear one, you probably won't need to spend the mega bucks. Nothing gets you closer to the sound of musicians playing music. I haven't looked back after buying a Super Gold with a Paratrace stylus. And total rebuilds to basically a new cartridge are less than $700. |
Did VDH say what is the internal resistance of your sample? Thx.
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No, you can't just add a larger counter weight. The cartridge's compliance has no relationship to it's weight. You will have to add head shell weights to the arm and/or heavier screws. You will probably need the larger counter weight to handle this. The V12 is my favorite SME but it is still pretty light at 12 gm effective mass. You would have to add head shell weight to it as well just not as much. the best way to find out where you are is by using a Test record with vertical and lateral resonance bands like the Hi Fi News Analog Test LP. You add mass until you get "the shakes" between 8 and 10 Hz. Get it down there and you will note a healthy improvement in bass detail and dynamics.
Getting kicked out of the groove requires a healthy miss match but I have seen it happen. Yours truly mounted an original Koetsu Rosewood in a Transcriptors Vestigial arm. The arm bounced out of the groove and because of the anti skate kept bouncing backwards right off the rim of the record:))) Experience is always the best teacher. Thus I learned about cartridge/tonearm resonance. Fortunately, the cartridge was not harmed and I got a more suitable arm. This was on an LP 12. |
@mijostyn,
Thank you for the update. Will adding the optional SME counterweights mitigate this factor? After all, I thought that was the purpose of SME developing more counterweights to allow heavier cartridges. The V12 can accept heavier cartridges, hmmm.
I could always move to an SME V12 which would be a nice experiment as well. My turntable has two SME mounts, and a third mount not being used. I have two SME Vs mounted and can add a third tone arm. Yes, those German Transrotors allow for some nice tone arm variation. Getting kicked out a groove has never happened to me, but does not sound good. Thanks.
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Hold on audioquest4life you are making one slight mistake which I do not want to come back and haunt you. The Benz LPS has a compliance of 15 um/mN. The Koetsu's, all of them have a compliance of 5 um/mN. The SME V has an effective mass of about 10 gms and you will need an arm with an effective mass of 20 gm to run a Koetsu. Why do you think the Japs like those boat anchor tone arms? Because you can balance out 16.5 gm we know you can add 5 gm to the head shell. If that does not get your resonance down to 10 Hz you will need more weight and the bigger counterbalance weight.
If you just mount the Koetsu and try to run it with the tone arm as is it will pop right out of the groove with the first bass drum kick. |
Audioquest, there is a thread on higher end Koetsu's, and the consensus seemed to be that the Diamond Cantilever option was worth the money. To some. I agree, I have one.
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@mijostyn,
I am with you regarding the Hyperion, if I don’t like it, some other person will. Same with the Jade. Ironically, the weight of the Benz LPS is 16.4 grams, and the Jade is 12.5 grams. To be honest, I thought the SME V was going to need the accessory weight they sell for ultra heavy cartridges. But, I did not. The SME V was able to handle the Benz LPS with ease, but it was very close. I was able to adjust the tracking force and, voila, music. |
@lewm
Thank you for the hearty welcome. It’s been a while for sure. Overseas work for military and feds keeps you busy. I am trying to find where I stated I was loading it at 20 ohms, but if I did, it was for experimental purposes only. I did start at 4.5K, the setting I am using for the Soundsmith MKII, and from there tried 47k, and then 20, and finally, 243. The specification tag for the Crimson was hand written in Euro script with two different loading ranges, 1. 20-250, 2. 47k. Having learned that loading on MC cartridges needs to be listened to in order to lock in best sound, I made bold adjustments, and the recommended ones as well. Of course, we all know the entire chain from cartridge to phono amp will influence loading somewhat. Which translates into it being a crap shoot with an optimal value/s as tested by the manufacturer. I view the ranges set by the manufacturer as being a baseline for users to be able to adjust their systems easier. Some trial and error is almost an absolute. |
Lewm, thanx for the history lesson. Ferrari was a second rate driver. Scuderia Ferrari was his team and they started racing Alfa's in the 30's. Mussolini was an Italian, everything had to be Italian. When Tazio Nuvolari came from behind in an under powered Alfa to beat the Germans in the German Grand Prix Benito held a big celebration. Anyway, an Italian car has to have Italian tires. The thought of American tires on one of his cars would have pissed him off. But alas, times have changed. We have a global economy and great cultures are losing their identity. |
