I have a Clearaudio Double Matrix for cleaning purposes. I am looking at getting an ultrasonic cleaner to augment my cleaning regiment. 8,000 plus records and counting....always will have a mechanical cleaner for sure. |
There was no internal impedance listed on the spec sheet.
Here’s what was listed for loading values:
Load Impedance: 20-47k
Optional load impedance: 20-200
Its packed up and heading out today. I concluded my experiment. As we all know, a lot of this is about synergy. I just don’t feel it in my system. At least I can say I tried it and know what it sounds like on my system.
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@mijostyn,
Thank you for the update. Will adding the optional SME counterweights mitigate this factor? After all, I thought that was the purpose of SME developing more counterweights to allow heavier cartridges. The V12 can accept heavier cartridges, hmmm.
I could always move to an SME V12 which would be a nice experiment as well. My turntable has two SME mounts, and a third mount not being used. I have two SME Vs mounted and can add a third tone arm. Yes, those German Transrotors allow for some nice tone arm variation. Getting kicked out a groove has never happened to me, but does not sound good. Thanks.
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@pindac,
You get an A+ for your reply. You literally interpreted the essence of my post quite literally. Thank you for your insight and providing the information about how you rationalize your cartridge purchase decisions. Definitely going to take that strategy into consideration.
Ciao, Cheers, Tschuss
Audioquest4life |
Speaking of Elvis, I found a few RCA Victor Victrolas for sale. They are autographed. Not sure if that correlates to Elvis having owned these or not, but he endorsed them. |
@edcyn,
“By the time it wears down to the point where you have to replace it (barring catastrophe, of course), chances are there'll be something better...and perhaps even cheaper.“
Amen. Seems similar to computers nowadays. I guess enjoy it as much as you can and decide on a factory refurbish or replacement later as needed.
@miilercarbon,
“Then when you get to the level you're talking about it really makes sense to get the Soundsmith Strain Gauge. Costs a little more than $7k but actually costs a whole lot less because with it you eliminate the need for a phono stage that could easily run you $5k to $15k or more at that level. Plus you get a cartridge with user replaceable stylus that is dirt cheap, relatively speaking.”
This is suggestive of someone looking to jump into those components and price range who either have not splurged on a total high end normal cartridge solution, or have researched and decided that the Strain Gauge is for them. I have considerable investments in my phono pre and have researched the Strain Gauge....have not heard one except at a couple of audio shows, and from what others are writing about on forums and reviews. It’s not for everyone as their is a perceived sound signature associated with it. At that price range, it’s competitive with other cartridges and the fact you don’t have to worry about exuberant maintenance costs, but, with the other cartridges, it’s an evil necessity. Not making a case against or for the Strain Gauge either way, it’s just that you mentioned it as an example for long term cost savings, which, would be for someone willing to step into that direction. Do you use a Strain Gauge?
I would only buy original replacement Michelin Sport Cup 2s for my Porsche or Corvette as that’s what is standard from the factory as a compete rebuild for the high priced cartridge. The exceptions are Soundsmith and Van den Hul, as their factory retip prices are reasonable.
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@chakster
“The price often has nothing to do with the quality. After using some overpriced modern cartridges at $3-5k range I am happy to get back to the basics and keep using some NOS samples of the best high-end from the 80s (MM,MI and MC) that cost me much less in price and sound better.”
I am tracking with you on that point for sure. My first high end cartridge, the original Benz LP, was a revelation into great sounding cartridge instruments. I heard the Koetsu Onyx and Jade and thought the Benz LP was not giving up much in sound quality, if any at all, compared to these stone body cartridges. There was a distinct difference in sound and the stones seemed to exhume a naturalness that the Benz does provide, but at a lower level. But, I always thought that if one day I could afford it, I would probably get a stone body Koetsu because of the revelatory listening experience I heard at the time. Today, there are so many cartridges at varying price points that compete with far higher price cartridges, that I think it’s a great time to be into records. A previous comment about downward trickle effect and better technologies allowing for better sound at lower prices is so true. What 80s cartridges have you compared with higher priced ones? I have had my share of Shur, Pickering, ADC, Audio Technica, Denon, as I was growing up and they are still part of my everyday living room setup. |
@mijostyn,
Thanks for the insight. As a matter of fact, I do have two tonearms, SME Vs. They are mounted on a Transrotor Apollon and I do swap cartridge use between a Benz LPs, Soundsmith Sussaro MKIi and Benz Ruby Z. I just received a Van den Hul Crimson Stradivarius to demo. I am sending my Aesthetix IO Signature for an upgrade this winter to get the volume and dual phono inputs, and an Eclipse upgrade, which would make it easier to use both tonearms. I don’t get why higher price cartridges have to have such painful refurbished price policies as the costs to manufacture them are already absorbed in production. Granted, 24 karat gold windings and machined exotic materials are expensive, but, you already paid the price for admission. A cantilever and/or tip should not be that expensive. I guess they do serve an audience, of which I am not. That’s why I asked....the more reasonably priced cartridges have less price premium to refurbish. I know, it’s logarithmic with the price strategy of the high end cartridges...but again, we know that it’s unreasonable. For some, that’s not an issue. I do look for bargains in getting cartridges that go on sale or for ones I could trade in to get an upgrade.
Essentially, owning records and being aware of cartridge wear go hand and hand with each other. The more you enjoy playing your music, the more use of cartridge, and voila, time to either factory retip or trade in.
What’s a reasonable break even point in today’s cartridge market? Is there even such a thing?
All good points, thank you.
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@rauliruegas,
Thank for your feedback. It’s all relative but not going down another rabbit hole for tonearms. Been there done that. Kicked out dealers from my home in Germany bragging about this and that, and at the end of the day, It’s subjective. Your opinion is subjective to me because I know my equipment, my room, and have many differing listening experiences than you. My phono stage can do 80db gain, not many can do that.
Too me the VPI only edges the SME V due to its ability to adjust VTA easier. Note, I said easier. Anyone who owns and sets up SME tonearms knows how to make adequate VTA adjustments, it just takes time. The Kuzma 4 point we tested against a SME V on a Transrotor Turbillon. We all preferred the sound with the SME V and Koetsu Onyx on this system. We swapped a Pass Labs with my own Aesthetix IO Signature, while different sounding, we all enjoyed the music the same. If you are finicky about tubes, stay away from tube products, that’s all.
Back to cartridges, what’s your stance on cartridge purchases? Do you opt for more mainstream with good returns on investment? Meaning, your apt to shop around for cartridges with good price performance ratios which also allow for trading in, or up, and/or easily remanufactured by a factory? Ciao,
Audioquest4life
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@mijstyn,
“you are certainly going to need that 80db with the Strat.
Not so sure I am sold on the single pole idea. Anyway, I am more interested on what you think of the Soundsmith and how it compares to your Benz. Thanx:)“
Sure. My take is that the Sussaro MKII exceeds the performance of the Benz LPS, but, in a way that is not dramatic, but definitely better. Compared to each other, I would say the Benz LPS is more lush, but it’s quite good at detail retrieval and subtle notes. The Sussaro MKII brings out the voices better. In fact, the entire soundstage is larger and more holographic with the Sussaro MKII.
I am not knocking the Benz LPS because it is very good, but as they say, technology never sleeps and the Sussaro MKII does music playback better. The Benz LPS has been the same since the middle of the 2000s I believe. My reference test LPs which I play that have some great voicing and others with brass instruments really showcase how much better the mids are with the Sussaro MKIi. If anything, I would say it would be almost the same upgrade going from the Benz LP to the Benz LPS. You get more of what was already good. The Benz LPS always sounded good to me with the exception that I felt the voices were not much pronounced and somewhat subdued.
With the Sussaro MKIi, I get all of what i Iiked in the Benz LPS and then some, especially with voicing and soundstage. The Benz LPS has been my reference cartridge for years and it was not until replacement parts and price became an issue, that I started looking at others. Hence, the Soundsmith Sussaro MKIi.
Speaking of other cartridges, I just did some preliminary testing with the VDH Crimson....it’s a totally different type of presentation. Fast, robust mids and highs, and very fast attack on bass. Tracking at 1.5 and using 20 ohm loading for now. Compared to the Sussaro, the Crimson is hyper analytical. Will see how long this will last. It’s a used demo and I am seeing if it meshes with my ears and equipment. I had to turn the mids and tweeters down on my field coil speakers to give you an idea of what I am describing. It was a straightforward install onto the SME V arm. Did not change gain at all.
Audioquest4life
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@rauliruegas
“I said that because the vdH cartridges are not " hyper analytical " especially the wood body models and with higher output level as the model you have.
vdH are different than the Sussurro ( that I already listened. I don't listen the Sussaro you named. ) but never anlytical and " hiper " is out of question. Something is not rigth in your whole set up.”
Again, that’s your subjective opinion, not mine, which is objective...I am the one hearing it in my system and that’s the way it sounds to me. Not properly setup...please! You don’t know me and my audio setup skills, and that’s a totally subjective opinion as well. After setting up a least few dozen cartridges one gets used to the initial sound impressions. You should know that based on your vast MM listening experiences. To understand what I meant previously, you need to read what I stated...I am experimenting with a used Crimson and evaluating different loading options as part of that experiment. And my initial thoughts are that it is hyper analytical compared to my Sussaro MKII. Next, I will try some other settings to either validate or invalidate my impressions. I will also compare the Crimson to my Benz LPS to see what the differences are between those two. Adjusting for loading, Gain VTA, anti skate, overhang, VTF, are easy to me so I don’t have a problem swapping cartridges.
But, back to the subject at hand, the cost performance ratio is all over the place, and quantifying a cartridge purchase with audio listening pleasure verses operating costs, is really individually rationalized by each of us in some way. I would say that as we gain more experiences and learn the intricacies of our own system and listening habits, it’s easy to formulate an opinion on what’s important, no matter the costs. Whether a low or high priced cartridge, some sort of rationalization must have been made to decide on the acquisition. Of course, and I am guilty of this as well, sometimes you say what the heck and splurge without second thought, which may be perceived as irrational behavior...it’s a hobby, enjoy while you can. Even if your told your setup is wrong!
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What do “You” think of the cactus spine cartridge? |
@antinn
Thank you for the detailed cost of ownership analysis. That is clearly the line of thought I was thinking as I tried to pose my question. Not many people are keen or know what Mean Time Before Failure Rate (MTBF) is. I had to be aware of MTBF for mass storage hard drives back in the early 90s working at the hospital. It’s a factor that is not highly publicized in many products anymore. You have to look at the individual components to get a glimpse of MTBF...such as processors operating within specs (temp, normal speed, etc.), or lasers as you stated, for example.
I agree with you regarding the maintenance and upkeep costs, and the sound qualities of the Soundsmith cartridges. They do have a blend of musical exceptionalities that enlighten my listening senses. For that reason, I will probably stick with Soundsmith for a while. Nothing really to complain about. Of course, you know us audiophiles, if something were to fall into my lap and I had the means to test, I will always do that to squelch that curiosity. And, as with cars, we are in the Wheel and deal business....trade in or trade up when it suits you. What do you think about the Soundsmith Hyperion😀
Tires...Another great factory racing tire, believe it or not, was the Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar which was standard on the Corvette C5 Z06.
Happy listening.
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“Ferrari used the Eagle F1 on several of its cars. Mussolini rolled in his grave. I believe Porsche has also but Ferdinand wouldn't give a hoot.” 😂
The costs over time are what interest me as I approach retirement. I know with fixed income in retirement that I cannot splurge as much as I want compared to now. Have to research the Grado. |
@mijostyn,
I am with you regarding the Hyperion, if I don’t like it, some other person will. Same with the Jade. Ironically, the weight of the Benz LPS is 16.4 grams, and the Jade is 12.5 grams. To be honest, I thought the SME V was going to need the accessory weight they sell for ultra heavy cartridges. But, I did not. The SME V was able to handle the Benz LPS with ease, but it was very close. I was able to adjust the tracking force and, voila, music. |
At the end of the day, I am very satisfied with the cartridges I own and appreciate the insight from some of you regarding cost performance ratio and long term ownership costs. It’s something I thought would be of interest to a few who are evaluating ownership costs, and if your like me, leaving the work force in a few years with reduced funding for your hobbies.
My system makes beautiful music as is...but, guess what, I am going to purchase the Hyperion, and Koetsu Jade. One reason is that I can trade up in the Soundsmith line, and the second reason is Jade is my birthstone. Talk about irrational purchases. Did not even take my own advice. Sounds all too familiar around these forums.
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@lewm
Thank you for the hearty welcome. It’s been a while for sure. Overseas work for military and feds keeps you busy. I am trying to find where I stated I was loading it at 20 ohms, but if I did, it was for experimental purposes only. I did start at 4.5K, the setting I am using for the Soundsmith MKII, and from there tried 47k, and then 20, and finally, 243. The specification tag for the Crimson was hand written in Euro script with two different loading ranges, 1. 20-250, 2. 47k. Having learned that loading on MC cartridges needs to be listened to in order to lock in best sound, I made bold adjustments, and the recommended ones as well. Of course, we all know the entire chain from cartridge to phono amp will influence loading somewhat. Which translates into it being a crap shoot with an optimal value/s as tested by the manufacturer. I view the ranges set by the manufacturer as being a baseline for users to be able to adjust their systems easier. Some trial and error is almost an absolute. |
@mijostyn,
”experience is always the best teacher.” I absolutely agree on this statement.
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@rauliruegas
Thank you for the feedback; however, I never said that I disliked the Benz LPS...it’s been my reference cartridge for years. In fact, while I was living in Europe, I have had high end dealers tell me that my system is one of the best sounding they have heard with the Benz LPS in my system. It was not for a sale either, just an invite to listen. Please don’t misconstrue what I stated about the Benz LPS, it works excellent in my system, as does the SS. I have not stated or it has not even been suggestive that I have any problems with my system. My friends most often want to come over and listen to music but not want to drink heavily, play cards, or play pool.
I would not fixate on the I/O as it does what I need it to do with the cartridges I own. I am sure open to experimenting and learning from others and that’s what I plan to keep on doing. What I have learned thus far in my audio journey is that I am the only one who can make emphatic statements about my listening environment and equipment, and those dealers, friends, and family who have heard the system as well.
I appreciate your experiences, but don’t fixate onto something that’s vaguely referenced or not even stated as fact, and then sensationalize that topic by falsely interdicting your opinion on a supposed topic that is never even stated. I can see your passionate about how you approach musical bliss, some of us, are fire and forget guys...and appreciate the simplicity of getting to where we need to go in order to enjoy the music. That’s what you want, that’s what I want, that what we all want.
But, the VDH still gets the “Das Boot” or “Your Fired” sentiment from me. We can really stop talking about the VDH now as this thread was started about costs of ownership cartridges. I made the mistake of mentioning that I was testing the VDH, and should have posted a new thread. Thanks.
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