A pragmatic view of cartridge expenses / many questions

Dear @unreceivedogma : If by Netherlands you mean vdH then you already have a first rate Onyx refurbishing.

Now, Koetsu is expensive because what you receive in return is a " new " Onyx cartridge and this could makes a difference for the better but you have to pay for.

Btw, best Shure quality performance cartridges were the Ultra 500 and the ML140HE.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @pindac : "  Idler Drive for their first time are able to enjoy a TT that is off a place of 'mediocrity and average... "

I'm not refering that idler drive TT are in the mediocity/average land because exist models that are really at the top as any BD or DD TT.

Exist TT DD/BD/ID models that stay in the mediocity/average place.

Funny because I experienced in the show rooms of a high end dealer at San Diego a very well received critics by the high end audiophiles that attended to the presentation/audiotining of my Essential 3160 self (with a friend. ) designed phonolinepreamp.

@cd318 : "  Isn't this hobby supposed to be about enjoyment?  "

sure it's but things are that exist diferrent quality levels of enjoyment through room/system listen experiences.

Any true MUSIC lover can enjoy and has fun listening MUSIC through a walkman but that kind of enjoyment is different to the kind and levels of enjoyment you can have at your place and at your place what determines the true level of enjoyment is the true quality levels of your room/system.

Some audiophiles just want and like to listen music and more than that I can say to listen " sound " and that's all ( and is fine because that's what they are looking for. ) when I want to listen MUSIC as nearer to the recording and to the live MUSIC event I can achieve.

R.

Dear @mijostyn  : "   Just because it sounds OK does not mean that it is."

it's not only the quality level measurements tools but what you stated: sounds OK ,because any designer/manufacturer of cartridges always makes several voicing tests in all its top cartridge models using more than one true state of the art room/systems.

You know what all those means and due the dead silence @pindac attitude he does not has yet the knowledge about. He likes talks with out any single fact that can prove/help what he said not even the name of the donor cartridge.

I know that his analog rig belong to the mediocrity/average levels with a not so expensive idler drive TT and a refurbished/up-graded vintage AT tonearm that btw I owned that same model along other AT tonearms.

Where has he the true foundation to stated what he stated here? .

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @pindac : A gentleman in this thread asked to you:

" @pindac What is "exotic" for you ? Could you recall an exotic cartridges you're talking about and tell us why do you think they are exotic ? "

maybe you did not read it, no answer from you.

Other gentleman posted to you:

" The only problem pindac is that you have no idea what you have unless the "rebuild engineer" has some very exotic test equipmment. Just because it sounds OK does not mean that it is. "

and again no answer. I wonder why that attitude from you.

https://audiofederation.com/dealership/prices/magic-diamond/index.htm

Do you think this an exotic cartridge and why yes or why not ?


You posted :

""  I had a MC Cartridge rebuild that consists of a Specific Attention to the performance of the MC undertaken by the rebuild engineer,
combined with exchanging the Damping/Suspension to a design that belongs to much more expensive models in the MC Brands Exotic Models and a choice of Exotic options used for the Cantilever and Diamond........................................... I have a unique Exotic Equivalent Cartridge for a Cost of 20% of a Branded Exotic MC's retail price. ""

I can say you have a refurbished new cartridge exotic or not.


""  Equivalent Cartridge for a Cost of 20% of a Branded Exotic MC's retail price. ""

Can give us at least 3 today cartridge models by different designed different cartruidge manufacturers?
 

I'm trying to understand you:

For you Is it the Highphonic MC-D15 an exotic cartridge ?


Thank's in advance. Your answers appreciated.

R.

Dear @pindac : Do you know why exist so many different transducers models? cartridges and speakers? 

Because everything the same transducers always makes the differences for the better or bad, down the re lives the " audio magic " ( if " magic " ezxist. ).

A transducer like a cartridge has its own signature, every time we change the cartridge we listen a different room/system quality level MUSIC performance reproduction.

That's why some of us own more than one cartridge where each one gives us different nice " color " and with any of iouyr samples exist our MUSIC enjoyment.

Your advise is good for you and I respect that but I'm in total disagreement with because at least me can't stay married for ever with the same transducer/cartridge it does not matters what.

To live with only one cartridge means that I already have the dream sysem quality performance level: turntable, tonearm, phonolinepreamp, amplifiers, speakers, room conditioning, cables, sour electrical system power, etc, etc and that may MUSIC sound priorities are already fulfilled.

Aditional to all those IF in the future I want it to make a seriously transducer up-date then : to whom can I sold that no-comercial identity cartridge?

As I said not for me but the OP is 100% with you, good.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@audioquest4life  : I had first hand experiences in two different home systems with the I/O .

Those high end Europe dealers and friends obviously have not attended very often to listen live MUSIC seated at nearfield or are a little " deaf " about because the I/O is very  far away from that experiences when other PS are a lot nearer to it.

I can't questioning to you because that's what you like, you are the owner.

As I posted before mine is only one more opinion trying to help but all is about you.

Anyway, as I posted our priorities are different.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@lewm : the I/O has 1Kohms as output impedance and the RIAA frequency deviation has a swing of a very high 0.5db. So it’s not only the VDH loading but this issues too that impedes the VDH showed at its best. I know very well the I/O even the 4 chasis one.

R.

Dear @audioquest4life : The resonance frequency using the V with the LPS is lower than 8hz and using the Jade is over 12hz.

mijostyn touched a critical issue that we have to take care carefully if we want true quality performance high levels.

The Jade and LPS can’t show to you their true quality performance, yes it can sounds but that’s all .
You prefer the Soundsmith over the LPS and is because you are given the SS what it needs and you did not give what the LPS is asked for.
Your cartridges compariason is not totally fair between the SS and LPS and certainly not even to the VDH. In the other side I hope that you make your comparisons at the same SPLs because our ears are extremely sensible even to 0.1db differences.

@lewm normally that VDH model comes with internal 13 ohms, so loading at 20 ohms is out of question but he is just testing it . Btw, even that is hiper-analytical and that's why I posted exist an overall set up problem.

aq4l, if you are using the I/O then exist a critical problem to fulfill any LOMC cartridge and does not matters those 80db on gain because this kind of gain figure is achieved through at least 5 different circuit stages where the cartridge signal must pass through and where at each one is degraded our beloved audio signal and that overall degradation means: higher noise levels added at each circuit stage, added, distortions, added..., added...,. and the I/O inverse eq. is an additional problem.

All those if you are using the I/O but if not then never mind.

Only trying to help in objective way, not a subjective as you said.

R.

Dear @audioquest4life : " Not properly setup...please! "

well that 20ohms loading means something about and this is not subjective.

" After setting up a least few dozen cartridges one gets used to the initial sound impressions. You should know that based on your vast MM listening experiences. "

Rigth, NO not exactly. The MM was a nice adventure and nothing else but a nice experiences ( " thousands " of it and way different the set up than LOMC ones. ) but I’m a LOMC cartridge advocate and my experiences with came from the Denon 103 passing through 100+ other LOMC ones including today top of the line ones. You can name almost any top vintage or today LOMC cartridge and you can be sure I owned or own or I listened it in my system.

My post to you is not subjective because you posted that loading and I know your phono stage and your tonearm and the cartridge and that can’t be improved by any kind of speaker or amplifier or room conditioning you have it. The best that can do speaker/room/amps is to degrade, at minimum if you like, the cartridge signal never can improve it and this is way objective in any way not subjective. I don't want to go deeper on this objective/subjective issue with your system.

Btw, MUSIC belongs not to the mid frequency range but to the frequency extremes. As better both ranges as better all frequency range harmonics.

Anyway:


" .it’s a hobby, enjoy while you can. Even if your told your setup is wrong! "

that’s your subjective opinion.

R.

Dear @audioquest4life  : "  Compared to the Sussaro, the Crimson is hyper analytical. "

Well, that speaks of the quality level performance of your room/system and what you like .

I said that because the vdH cartridges are not " hyper analytical " especially the wood body models and  with higher output level as the model you have.
 vdH are different than the Sussurro ( that I already listened. I don't listen the Sussaro you named. ) but never anlytical and " hiper " is out of question. Something is not rigth in your whole set up.

Obviously that unfortunatelly  the Colibri is not for you and I say " unfortunatelly " because is a great top quality performer in the rigth room/system overall set up.

@terry9  "  At this rate, I'll need one rebuild, maybe two in my lifetime, "

imagine if you own the Allaerts Formula One that according with the designer/manufacturer information can gives you 10K hours !



R.

@audioquest4life :  "  My phono stage can do 80db gain. "

Mine too but gain is only one critical issue with LOMC cartridges, there are a lot more than gain down there.
Any phono stage main target should has: very low noise level ( if I have 80db of gain it's a must this noise level. ), few gain stages, wide frequency range, very low inverse RIAA eq. frequency deviation, very low distortion levels.

Example about: my unit not only has active high gain but its RIAA eq. deviation is: 0.012db.

Anyway, enjoy what you like it. 

R.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa3913-sumiko-palo-santos-presentation-low-output-mc-moving-coil-cartridge-brand-new-cartridges

R.

@audioquest4life  :Btw, for years this new Sumiko cartridge is voiced through SME V, so maybe can be a good option for you.

R.

Dear @audioquest4life  : "   good returns on investment? "

The only return I looking for is that the cartridge honor MUSIC reproduction that can puts me nearer to the recording and that's all thaT MATTERS TO ME.

MUSIC is all about MUSIC, hardware is only a necessity for. Obviously your needs/priorities are way different from mines.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

Dear @audioquest4life : " I just received a Van den Hul Crimson Stradivarius to demo. "

I owned at least 3-4 Colibri cartridges I still own one of them.

The Colibri is a great quality performer if you own the " rigth " phonolinepreamp.

I owned the Colibri with wood and polycarbonate cartridge body and with different output levels and the best ones are the Colibri not with wood body but polycarbonate one and the Colibri with 0.22mv output, the higher output are really a different cartridge.

I owned too not only a stone Koetsu’s but the RSP too and these Koetsu are low output too and needs tha " rigth " phonolinepreamp. Even the cartridges you own need it too. I owned the LP and the Ruby’s too.

I owned your SME V and mounted there several cartridges including top performance Lyra’s that starting with the Kleos to the Etna’s are really good ones.

Btw, maybe could be time that you think to own a different tonearm that can gives you more options of different carrtridges that the V because the Koetsu stone models is not a good match as other great cartridge options outhere as the Goldfinger and the like.
Maybe the new gimbal bearing Durand or the new VPI gimbaled or the Kuzma 4point can help you more than the V in the near future if you are looking for a new great cartridge.

R.

Dear @audioquest4life : " Enjoy for special occasions, and use a less costly for normal day to day listens. "

Depend of which is your main target/priority listening your room/system.

If that main priority/target is to stay as nearer to the recording and MUSIC as you can then you have to invest in the best cartridge you can 7k or 10K whatever and when is near the end of its stylus tip life then send it to the manufacturer directly not a re-tipper no matters what.

Chapagne is a bad example against cartridge. It’s like red wine Petrus or Chateu Laffite or Margaux that you drink it to celebrate only in very special ocasion but if you are whealty enough then you will drinked always, day by day !

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTION,
R.