I felt strongly that I wanted to inform the Gon members about a new DAC that ranks with the very best on the market regarding performance, but costs around $2,000.00. The Lab12 DAC1 SE was compared to three reference level DACS that retail for over $12.000.00 in my review for hometheaterreview.com and was at least on the same level sonicly, if not better. This DAC from Greece is not just "good for the money" but competes with virtually anything on the market regardless of price!
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
Check out Audio mirror this Vacuum Tube model is Very goood and the New MK-2 SE model can be bought for under $1500 and its naturalness is pretty eye opening . I have had several more expensive models .$$ dollar for dollar you are getting a lot . they are upgrading their website ,writeto them directly and do a web search . Another model from Mod squad is also high value.
Almarg, I have Horning Eufrodite Ellipse speakers, which I run with 300b's and Pass XA-30.8. My Supratek Sauvignon has adjustments for gain, so I should have no problems.
Teajay, looking forward to your review once you get the amp.
I'm on the list to get the SIT3 for review. Everyone, that I trust their ears liked it very much. However, it's a very different amp compared to the XA-25 regarding what speakers you can drive and control over the bottom end and overall dB levels.
My SIT2 is a wonderful amplifier, however it has to be used with the right speaker to really be able to shine. The SIT3 has more watts then the SIT2, so it's more flexible regarding what you can drive with it.
Thanks for your comment, Joe. I had considered the possibility of waiting for the SIT-3, but I decided that it wouldn’t be suitable for my purposes.
One reason being its VERY low gain (spec’d at 11.5 db), which would make it a non-starter for my system.
Another being that its power capability (spec’d at 18 watts and 30 watts for 8 ohms and 4 ohms respectively) is probably marginal (or worse) with my speakers, when listening to the many classical symphonic recordings that are in my collection that have been engineered with minimal or no dynamic compression, on labels such as Telarc, Reference Recordings, Sheffield Labs, Chesky, etc. In fact I might not have purchased the XA25 were it not for John Atkinson’s measurements which indicated a maximum power capability (presumably after leaving class A) of 80 watts and 130 watts into 8 and 4 ohms respectively. (My speakers are spec’d at 97.5 db, with a nominal impedance of 6 ohms, and are said to be close to that impedance throughout almost all of the frequency range).
You do say interesting things in very peculiar ways. To address your statements:
1) I believe most people in this hobby know that people in the industry, including professional reviewers, get discounts on what they buy for their personal use. This is not breaking news.
2) If I had to pay full price I still would have purchased the review pieces that brought my system and enjoyment of music to a higher level. My great interest is finding killer products for reasonable amounts of money.
3) My definition of value is build quality/performance compared to price and if it out performs much more expensive pieces, it's a great bargain.
4) I do not understand your statement at all regarding "investors in boutique audio companies" The owners of these companies have nothing to do regarding the reviewing process. For a matter of fact, the boutique companies that I have historically setup reviews with did not seek me out at all. I got wind of their products and was highly motivated to review their gear. The small guys cannot pay for the slick advertising, the website I review for does not tie in advertising dollars as way of getting a review done at all, therefore they are excited and take the risk of a bad review to get the public to know about their product.
Hi almarg, To bad you didn't wait for the new First Watt SIT-3. I'm on the waiting list. Should be getting it in October, hopefully. Nelson is only making 250 of them. A few reviewers think very highly of it. Stating that the tonal balance is quite tube like but, still providing detail, bass, and control like good SS provides.
I think nearly everyone who reads this is aware that reviewers get a substantial discount, and the "high value" comment assumes that the reader is looking for a component that is in the price range of the piece under review. If it isn't in the readers price range, they are likely reading the review just for entertainment. I do that frequently.
Truth be told, I never turn off SS amps including the XA-25, except if I'm going on a long trip. Yes, the XA-25 comes mainly back on song after about a hour. However, to get to the pristine level of performance it can offer takes a lot more time in my experience.
I had a pair of Threshold SA-1 mono-blocks that remained turned on for close to 20 years and the caps were still good and going strong. I believe that my never turning off the amps the caps last longer and are less likely to dry out.
@teajay I appreciate your viewpoint. A “no conflict” statement is easy to make for publications, so why the pushback? It’s simply a general statement that reviewers should make about what their conflicts of interest are with respect to products under review, particularly when they are making statements in a commercial, for-profit, publication that might lead to inducing others to make a purchasing decision, as this thread amply demonstrates in spades. This is common in even scientific publications, where no commercial transaction is even contemplated. If none exists, then so state it. Period. End of story.
And with all due respect, stating something is an economic, high value product sort of depends on what the value is to that person. That is, the cost to them. The publication can make its policy a blanket statement that applies to all reviewers. But to endorse a product with the statement, “I bought the reviewed product” suggests that the price offered to ordinary consumers was paid. Your audience is not like-minded reviewers who can get the gear at your cost, but folks who pay full price for their gear.
The manual for the XA25 states that it takes about an hour to fully warm up, and that coincides with the amount of time I have observed it to take to reach a stable temperature on its heat sinks. So rather than leaving it on 24/7 my usual practice is to simply turn it on about an hour or so before I do any critical listening.
For break-in purposes, Mark at Reno Hi-Fi had suggested leaving it on 24/7 for 5 days to fully break it in. But out of an abundance of caution, especially given that it is a brand new amp, I left it on for most of the 24 hours of each of day, until it reached 120 hours, but not while asleep or when no one was home.
Al, Your rationale is easily understood. The only reason to keep a tube amplifier is if it's clearly superior sonically to the solid state component. In your assessment of the Pass XA 25 it is the sonic equal of the VAC. That is an obvious compliment for the XA 25. Charles
@Charles1dad Thanks, Charles. I suspect that I’ll eventually sell the VAC, but I won’t decide until sometime after I receive it back. The XA25 is definitely a keeper, though, for the long term. It comes amazingly close to the VAC with respect to dimensionality, imaging, liquidity, and other traditional fortes of high quality tube amps. It’s a bit less rich sounding than the VAC, but I interpret that as an increase in accuracy, which is fine as far as I am concerned.
There are also some non-sonic factors favoring the XA25, including the likelihood of greater reliability in the years ahead considering the age of the VAC; the fact that even though both amps operate in class A the XA25 puts only 240 watts of heat into the room compared to what I believe is upwards of 700 watts for the VAC; and the cost that would be involved in re-tubing eight 300Bs if and when that were to become necessary.
This is the first time I’ve had a high quality solid state amp in my system in about 25 years, and I believe I’ve picked the right time and the right model with which to do so again. Thanks in part to Terry's review.
The way you shared your opinion, "should clearly state their conflict of interests" is setting up a false/invalid assumption. I have no "conflict of interests, I'm not censored by the man I write for, I do not have to protect any companies, and there is no alternative motive (s), just sharing my opinions about gear I listen to/review to readers here.
Yes, reviewers to get a "industrial accommodation" regarding price if we purchase the review demo. If it's a small boutique company that has a very small profit ratio the discount is much less then a much larger well known/established company. The pricing follows just about what an importer or retailer would pay for a piece of gear. However, I don't agree that anyone, including a reviewer, "should/must" disclose what they payed for what they purchased.
I respect all those who offer their genuine opinion of their listening impressions of audio equipment, regardless of the circumstances whereby they audition the gear.
Audio reviewers should clearly state their conflicts of interests, including a statement of the price paid for any reviewed samples.
Hello Al, I’m not surprised that you find the Pass XA 25 a very good match with your efficient and easily driven Daedalus Ulysses speakers. Is the Passgoing to replace the iconic VAC Renaissance 70/70 or will you retain both? Pure class A minimalist circuits (tube or transistor) consistently produce a natural high quality sound. Charles
Thanks Charles and Al. I have always felt that I have to trust people at some point without rock solid confirmation. I believe that he is telling the truth, and I intend to buy the Lab 12 as soon as I sell my Audio Note Kits 2.1 which I have loved for several years now, and a couple of other things. I don't know how long that will take, but I will be sure to give my impressions Charles if/when it all works out.
Regarding Teajay's credibility as a reviewer, I can add a data point based on actual recent experience. I very recently purchased a Pass XA25 amplifier (from Mark at Reno Hi-Fi, who of course was completely wonderful to deal with), motivated in part by the glowing reviews and comments it has received from Terry and many others, and in part by the fact that my VAC Renaissance 70/70 amplifier developed a problem and is back at the factory for repair. Although I've had the XA25 for just a bit more than a week I can say that in my system, at least, the detailed characterization of its sonics Terry provided in his review were absolutely spot on in every respect. And in fact were more focused, meaningful, and accurate, IMO, than the comments in the comparably glowing review Herb Reichert provided in Stereophile.
Thanks for your excellent review, Terry; I expect to enjoy this amplifier for many years!
Hello Roxy54, Teajay used the Concert Fidelity DAC as his reference source for quite a long time and consistently preferred it to other highly esteemed DACs. Granted it's just one man's opinion but it does provide some means of a comparison/reference point. I've heard the Concert Fidelity DAC in several different systems and can attest to its terrific sound quality,
That teajay finds the Lab 12 DAC1 SE equal or even better sounding is at the very least a notable development given that it is roughly 1/5 the cost. If you do decide to purchase this DAC let us know your listening impressions. Charles
Agree with everything that you said Charles. It's very human to share your knowledge and excitement, and that is one of the main purposes of these forums. I contacted Mike Kay on Saturday via email, and received a prompt response. I am really interested in this DAC, and I'm getting ready to sell a few things in order to get it.
Teajay, I echo David_ten's comments regarding your contributions to fellow Audiogon members. I believe that quite a few people appreciate you discovering exceptionally good audio components and bringing attention and exposure to them. Keep it up.
It's bewildering to me why some people take such offense to the idea of affordable, high value components that are capable of providing high quality sound. This really seems to bother some people for some odd reason. While I subscribe to the idea (in a general sense) that you get what you pay for. I've learned that in High End audio there are clearly exceptions to this axiom.
There is not a strict linear relationship between price and performance in the realm of audio products. When someone such as teajay who has vast experience with upper tier products and then touts a lower cost product as competitive, this should be greeted with joy and appreciation.
What is particularly peculiar is the immediate derision and negativity from people who haven't heard the product at all but dismiss it due to its affordability. An unreasonable and unjustified reaction in my opinion. Charles
My name is Terry London and I review for hometheaterreview.com. Yes, my AudioGon name is teajay, however in real life all that know me well call me TJ, not Terry. It's been a known fact from the beginning here who I am and who I write for.
@teajay What is the name you use for reviewing and where are your reviews published?
As I have suggested to others including @audiotroy in the past, it helps everyone when those in the industry sign their posts identifying themselves as such, (e. g. Terry, reviewer, xyz magazine). Cheers, Spencer
Thanks for taking the time to post and share with us here on Gon. I have been doing research on dacs and what may be my first purchase of a dac is the ’LitedacAH for under $200’. All because of the post made here by @ahendler.
Some of us here or should I say a lot of us here on Gon don’t have as much disposable income as others and It’s something I can buy for not a lot of money an educate myself on what a dac is and how best to use it and at a later date maybe upgrade.
I have been fortunate enough to have found out about some not to expensive ’giant killers’ here on Gon such as the Parks Audio Budgie Phono preamplifier for $399 and the matched pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922 vacuum tubes I got for the Budgie cost more than the Budgie itself! But the total cost, was less than $900.
Just 2 weeks ago here on Gon I bought 1 pair of clear day cable interconnects and 2 pair of clear day cable 8’ double shotgun speaker wire for less than $500! And I would have never even heard of clear day cable if not for audio/hifi enthusiasts like teajay the op and ahendler posting here on Gon.
So please forgive me for not staying on topic as I appreciate it very much when someone takes the time out of their busy life (as in get a life!) to share with us here - some positive (as in not negative!) audio/hifi vibes, indeed.
PS: I'm still looking for 1 more pair of clear day cable interconnects. So if anybody out there in Gon land has a pair for sale...PM me!☺
teajay, I personally believe that your motive in starting this thread was to share your excitement about the performance of the Lab 12 DAC, and your belief that it would save interested members a lot of money. Period. If I am considered gullible for that, fine.
Reviewers, Dealers- in either case it’s a conflict of interest waiting to happen. Obviously, anyone can put up a post, with or without a statement of their ties to the industry. But I submit that this forum is for end-users (audiophiles and music lovers), who buy/sell/trade gear.
Jperry, we are very respectful of all people just sick of the relentless buy of the century posts. On products that we sell we have never claimed that product x beats the stuffings out of way more expensive speakers.
We have said that in some ways a properly set up pair of Pardigms can be compared to and in certain areas can outperform certain really expensive speakers, but if you compare a $35k pair of Paradigms to a $70k pair of Wilsons that is not the same thing as saying a $5k speaker is crushing a $70k one, we have yet to experience that or anything like that.
Also in 30 years of professional sales experience we have seen products that have performed well for less money like the Auralic Vega but again that was a $3,500 dac that matched in some ways a $7,000.00 Meitner but again, not a $2k dac that is sounding close to a $10k one.
Whether or not you want to purchase anything from us is fine or read another TJ review we are just calling for a bit more restraint from hailing some cheapie unknow product as the buy of the century until more people have confirmed the same thing.
I don't really care if reviewers and dealers both post, but they should all post a little less, and be more respectful of each other, as well as being mindful that actual customers post here. This is not really a forum for selling your stuff whether it is review clicks or equipment.
After reading all of the BS on these forums from both parties, here and on other threads, I could care less about reviews from teajay and would not buy anything from audiotroy. You guys should take it outside to PM instead of embarrassing yourselves publicly.
In the hands of a skilled designer who loves music, the 1541 and 1543 DAC Chips with NOS or filtering yields a more natural sound similar to vinyl without the added artifacts.
More skills are required in implementing a robust power supply, passive or active I/U or I/V conversion stages, tube selection and mating the correct receiver to the DAC Chip.
It appears that even DS designers are going back to the drawing boards with R2R/NOS but SW1X Audio Design, Audio Note, Border Patrol and Lab12 have done their research and are giving these $10K+ DAC companies something to think about!
I left out one more comment that was leveled at me by the boys at the Audio Doctor NJ.
Since my review on the Double Impact Speakers there has been over seven five star reviews all over the place agreeing how terrific Eric Alexander's break through designs are and how they compete with anything on the market. I guess I'm part of the "DARK WEB" conspiracy to get you and the president.
@nonoise + others. When the Lab12 Gordian achieves some wider market penetration, I think it may then be recognized as a true sleeper in the product category.
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