6SN7 variants circa 2019 - tone, longevity, reliability, value

Tne Linlai from Grant Fidelity  is excellent.

I was running a set of Shangs with psvanes in my Don Sachs pre that have about a thousand hrs. on them. That combo which in fact worked for me at times, then pulled the trigger on G/F Global E (4) & tried every combo between them. After about 100 + hrs. on the Globals, my system has never sounded so good! I also have NOS, KR, Sylvania both JANs, but their a different flavor of sound. 

@noromance 

Wow. You're right! I'm kind of surprised that they do. $399/pair. Yikes!

Anybody 'round here compared the Shuguang tubes to the Linlais?

@markusthenaimnut 
They still have these on their website.
Grant Fidelity Treasure Globes

@noromance 

Thanks for posting your update. And thanks for the link to the tnt-audio review. I hadn't seen that.

It has been almost three years since I started this thread. And a year and a half since the last update by @atmasphere . Time flies! Now Grant Fidelity no longer carries the Shuguang tubes and has moved on to the Linlais.  Wow. Who'd a thunk there'd be all these changes in the world?

Anybody else want to share their thoughts? Thanks - in advance - to any who do...

My Shuguang Treasure/Grant Fidelity globes are still going strong.

Probably the best of the breed.

https://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/shuguang_globe_6sn7_e.html

The Shugung tube is NOS at this point. Production might happen again; the factory burned in August of 2019 and I heard they are looking for a new facility.

The JJ tube has proven to be a good sub.

Great thread!  I am owner of a Aric Audio 6SN7 tube pre. 

I'm interested in hearing any follow-up impressions from any of the folks who've posted on this thread... Sometimes tubes change over time.

Thanks

It was the combined use of different tubes in each of my separate components that came together recently. Persistence for perfection can be costly with 6SN7s. The final answer was the combination of the right 12AU7 inputs on my amps to go along with the 6SN7s in my preamp.

It’s rare to find, hats off to great engineers with good ears that know how to design, build, and voice truly musical "integrated" amplifiers.

" You’ll find countless forum threads on various sites dating back to early to mid 2000s when good NOS 6SN7s were more readily available, more affordable. And, more recent debates the past ten plus years on various rebranded Chinese, Czhec, and Russian tubes. After trying some unobtanium quads of 6SN7 NOS, a few different re-issues, and some higher end boutique Chinese stuff made for resellers... 

.. The more you’ll read the more confusing it gets..."

Yup.

Mr. decooney - 

Thanks for posting. Nice to see you here...

Yes, I've read through those countless threads and concur with your comments. The challenge I find is that, because of their age, some of those threads have become very large and I find it tiring to read each and every post. And the Chinese tubes seem to have evolved significantly over the last decade and the earlier criticisms are no longer accurate. As some of the comments on this thread show, it appears that some folks are finding some of the new Chinese tubes to be worthy. The purpose of this thread is to provide a place in which those who are interested in this topic can post their experience.
The whole system dependency thing is really really true. I have no dissatisfaction with my current system. But I am curious about the other tubes out there. Seems like it will take several years before I fully explore this. The current pair I'm running - the Russian tubes - were the highest-measuring, most closely matched pair I've ever seen. And they were also the cheapest. Whether they've changed as they've burned in or whether my hearing/perceptions have adapted to their sound I can't say. The system sounds great!

Thanks again - ALL - for sharing your experience on this thread. 

Here's a thought, intended to help others who might read this thread in the future - it might be helpful if we list the equipment and system setup we're running the tubes in -

Here's my summary;
6SN7s are in my Supratek Cortese, into a Quad 909 SS power amp and Quad ESL 2805 speakers. Soundstaging is superb, instrumental tonalities and the human voice are rendered in a realistic, true-to-my-life-experience-and-ears way. Timbres are neither euphonic or thin (excessively trebly). Leading edges and note decay seem spot-on.

The Shugauang WE plus easily bested the NOS 6sn7 I purchased from Andy (VTS) and the NOS 12sn7 shipped with my microzotl. I can’t speak to the long term reliability as they were installed this summer. It’s my understanding if they don’t fail within the first 100 days, that’s a pretty good sign. As to the sound, they provide an expansive and better layered soundstage than the NOS. 

@markusthenaimnut

...I’m interested in hearing your thoughts about *Tone*, reliability and value. I’ve been trying to get a handle on the Shuguang & Psvane tubes. Many folks rave about them sounding better than virtually all the famous NOS tubes. ...
...
Excellent point about *where* the 6SN7 is installed and its intended function....I’m using the 6SN7s in my Supratek Cortese preamp.

markusthenaimnut, for what it’s worth -

You’ll find countless forum threads on various sites dating back to early to mid 2000s when good NOS 6SN7s were more readily available, more affordable. And, more recent debates the past ten plus years on various rebranded Chinese, Czhec, and Russian tubes. After trying some unobtanium quads of 6SN7 NOS, a few different re-issues, and some higher end boutique Chinese stuff made for resellers..., I concluded something for my system. It really comes down to what "tone" and presentation you prefer for your ears. AND, what adds further variability to the mix is "your system", your amp(s), your speakers/sound/effciency, your cables, caps in your gear ...and so many variables that shape the final tone and presentation. Sounds stage is a whole other deal I’ll stop here on. The more you’ll read the more confusing it gets and particularly with preamp tubes. I finally gave up reading others posts and just started trying them to find out first hand. Again, it all came down to my system, and when someone says it’s truly "system dependent", it’s true or it was in my case too.

In general terms, most of the re-issues typically don’t have the same type of presentation or sound stage depth as NOS, many for me were a tad more forward and not as textured, yet that might be a good thing for your system. I recently pulled and hoarded away my quad+2 of NOS Sylvania 6SN7GTs from the 1950s that I loved. Went back and re-tried new TS, EH re-issues, and then started messing with boutique Chinese tubes that are getting better, and still in my preamp now after a few months. A few buddies and I figured out the part of the "reliability"or "longevity" situation ALSO has to do with packing, packaging, and shipping from overseas and China too. Some of the larger distributors figured this out with dead-on-arrival failures and SOME pack and package better now. Whatever you do, take others advice and IF you buy NOS, "get them from a reputable dealer" with good testing tools and processes, and the same really applies to online purchases of new re-issue tubes.

What about the current sound (with your system) is it that you don’t like, what do you hope to change by replacing tubes in your preamp?

To respond to the earlier mention of current-production Tung-sol's reliability - we used to use all Tung-sol for manufacturing and might have had one 6SN7 failure, though it could have been caused by something else. That is through hundreds of tubes. Admittedly, the amp topology (microZOTL) is quite different from Atma-Sphere. 

I am interested in anyone's experience with the newish JJ 6SN7.

I have not tried the CV 181 tubes.

NOS GE 6SN7GTBs are a great tube and I use 5 of 'em...4 in my preamp and 1 in my single ended little tube power amp...I like the Sylvania "chrome domes" also, and Amperex although they're hard to find.

Thank you for the description, I have considered getting the Sophia's, have you tried the CV-181?

There are a fair number of Atman-Sphere amp owners among us, so I thought it might be good for me to add my observations regarding 6SN7s to those of @luisma
 above.  The M-60s require 4 6SN7 tubes per channel, with one of the 4 positions requiring a 6SN7 GTA/GTB tube.  The tubes need not be of the same manufacturer and need not be matched.  As others have reported, I've found it advantageous to use different tubes in different positions as long as the left and right channels are symmetrical. The M-60s amps are very revealing of upstream components.  So it is likely that there will be some variability in what others may prefer.
I've used the following tubes and list them in my order of preference:
1. Shuguang 6SN7GT-  These are the cheap tubes that come stock in the M-60's.  I don't like these tubes.  They have an aggressive top end with a lot of glare.  Mid range is unremarkable.  Hard to find any redeeming virtue in these tubes.
2. Sophia GTA (the older clear glass tube).  I had used these previously in my ModWright Sony CD player and thought they were very good in that application, but they were nothing special in the M-60 amps.  Certainly they had a less aggressive top end, compared to the cheap Shuguangs, but they did not distinguish themselves with respect to dynamics, bloom, or anything else.  Rather boring, actually. 
3. Tung-Sol New production.  These tubes are much better sounding tubes than the cheap Shuguangs and the much more expensive Sophia GTAs.  I probably could have lived with these tubes had I not also received a warning from Ralph regarding failure rate.  Overall, they were smooth, had a bit of bloom, and had a nice extended but not aggressive treble.
4. GE GTA 50's vintage.  Overall, these tubes were a disappointment.  Similar to the Sylvania sound but not as smooth and grain free.  They also seemed to go harsh when presented with high volumes.  
5. 60's vintage RCA GTBs.  This was a pretty decent tube with what I would call typical RCA sound.  Nice rich midrange, average dynamics, relatively grain free.  This is a pretty good NOS tube for about the same price as the new production Tung-Sols.
6. 60's vintage Sylvania GTB green label. These feature great dynamics and a really nice high frequency sparkle without being overly aggressive.   It would be a toss up with the previously listed RCAs and are about the same price.
7.  Sylvania Bad Boys.  Similar in virtues to the previously listed Sylvania, just more of everything.  Really nice tubes.
8. 50's vintage RCA grey glass.  Nice rich sweet tube, average dynamics.  This is a tubey sounding tube.  
9.  Shugauang WE plus.  These are very large tubes, even larger than the Sophia Blue Glass.  Consequently, I can only get these to fit in the front isolated position, which is least impacted by tube rolling.  I can say that these are far better than the GE GTAs one this position and also better than the Sylvania Bad Boys.  Too bad I don't have enough clearance in the back row of tubes that would allow me to better judge the sound.
10.  Sophia Blue Glass.  These things had better be good for the price, and they are.  Balanced virtues.  Smooth and grain free.  Nice sweet treble. Fully fleshed out midrange. This tube, in this application, is the best I have heard. 
For now, optimal placement of the 6SN7s in my M-60 3.3s is as follows:

Left rear, RCA grey glass.  Center rear, Sylvania Bad Boy.   Center right, Sophia Blue glass.  Front, Shuguang WE plus. While I am very pleased with the current complement, I will probably pick up one more pair of Sophia Blue Glass tubes for the left rear position as I suspect it will improve upon the RCA grey glass.  
 The Sophia Blue and Shuguang WE plus are both about 6 months old.  Can't say how long they will last, but if they have reasonable life, the virtues of both justify the cost. 

Excellent point about *where* the 6SN7 is installed and its intended function.

I'm using the 6SN7s in my Supratek Cortese preamp. It comes with Russian (Foton, I believe?) 6H8C tubes. There are multiple threads around regarding the Supratek preamps and even one for tube-rolling, but it does not address the modern Chinese tubes. More than one Supratek owner has come around and returned to the stock tubes.

But you know how it is - tube rolling is a bit of an addiction!

It is an interesting thread, I think most of the tubes used and the sound will depend on the amplifier or pre amplifier these are used. I own an atmasphere MA-1 monoblocks and MP-3 pre amp.

Let me start saying that the amp and preamp comes stock with shuguangs red base clear glass 6SN7s and the sound is very balanced, rolling tubes can indeed provide better sound to your liking but I find myself using the stock tubes as a reference a lot, these amps and pre sound in credibly good with stock, now that said.
On my preamp I am currently using Chinese shuguangs BT CV-181s very balanced sounding and silent tube, I tried Sylvania GT, GTA and GTB, the sound changes and IMO it has some glare, actually I believe the correct word is sibilance (the sssssss on vocals). Tried the Psvane tube and the sound is similar to the shuguangs BT but one tube died after 20 hours of use and I have only one now. Many will differ with me but I have tried and own the rca red base 5962 which everyone loves and I have find it not very special. The best sounding tubes on my preamp are the GTs, I have the Raytheon black glass GTs and love the sound, that is the only tube I prefer over the BTs on my preamp.

Now onto the amps I have tried several, in this case the Sylvanias are very good sounding, the front tube in my case must be a GTA or GTB because of the voltage, that is my understanding but overall I think the GTs are the best sounding tubes assuming of course equal quality, if you have an old GT chances of microphony could be higher than a more recent production GTA or GTB YMMV
I tried the 6H8C metal base military spec (3 separate pairs) and they run very hot and are prone to failure, 2 died on me and one is microphonic after use so these in my specific case are a no no, the sound I found it to be not as full as with other tubes but I'm sure this is because of my specific equipment. BTW from the beginning Ralph told me Russian 6SN7 on his amps will consistently fail so I was warned early.

No intend to drive this thread into an amp discussion but it is kind of important as discussing tubes alone without the equipment in which these are used has no real meaning. Current and voltage and type of circuits of these amps and pre amps makes all the difference.

Guys - thanks for all the info you are sharing. I think this thread is very useful, because many of the other discussions regarding 6SN7 tubes out on the web trace their origin back 10 or 15 years, and many of the vintage tubes preferred are now extremely expensive. 

Also, at that time there were far fewer Chinese variants on the market.

FWIW, I'm currently using a pair of Russian 6H8Cs from the Novosibirsk factory. I'd describe them as very balanced throughout the spectrum. I'd describe them as neutral and transparent. I've been burning them in for a couple of months now and I think they sound very good. They replaced (not because I expect them to be better, but simply because I am curious) a pair of black glass Ken-Rad VT-231s. 

I'm hoping this thread will provide a handy reference and place to share experience with this wonderful tube variant.  

@markusthenaimnut I think you already know, but to mark it in the appropriate thread, I've tried the Shuguang WE6SN7 PLUS and Black Treasure C-181Ts that came with my Don Sach's Pre.  I thought the WE+ was a bit brighter/thinner and preferred the C-181Ts.  They seemed to have better body/weight in my system.  In the end I did switch to RCA grey glass (buffer tubes) & and Rayteon JAN-CRP-6SN7GTs (driver tubes).  They provided a smoother sound with better layering.  I can imagine that what you end up preferring is highly system dependent...

Thanks for those additional brush Strokes in your picture. Helps to provide some context for your recommendation.

@markusthenaimnut  GE, RCA, Sylvania. Bad Boy.

 ALL,
Thanks for sharing.

Noromance,
Which other 6SN7s have you tried?
Thanks

I'm using the GF Globes. Detailed and transparent. Bright at first. Takes about 20-50 hours to burn in. Silent. Running fine after 18 months.

I've only used three brands because of $$$.Tung Sol-clean,clear,dry,'modern sound'.Sylvania chrome top- softer than TS but bland.Sofia Blue-warm and detailed,my favorite.No problems or failures with any of them.The Sylvanias were a little grainy until I cleaned the pins thoroughly like I should have done in the first place.

I tried the Black Treasures and the Sophia Electrics in my Modwright LS100 and had issues with both going microphonic in a relatively short time.  I contacted Brent Jessee and he recommended  Sylvania 6SN7GTA Chrome Domes.  I've been using those for a few months now.  I had one of those go microphonic also, but Brent sent me a replacement right away. 

The fact that I've had so many tubes go microphonic makes me think there might be a problem with my LS100, and not the tubes, or maybe I've just had some bad luck.  The Black Treasures and Sophias both sounded nice but I had problems with both not long after I got them.  The Chrome Domes sound great, and they were only $85 a pair at the time I bought them (plus shipping).  I paid extra for the two year warranty, which paid for itself when one went bad.

I used the Tung Sol tubes that came with the Modwright for a while after I bought it and there wasn't anything bad about their sound, I just wanted to try some different tubes.  Those never had any issues with microphonics, they were very quiet and sounded good.

I've bought a few other tubes from Brent and recommend him.  He'll give you recommendations to fit the sound you're after and your budget.

I used the Black Treasure CV 181s - very nice full sound but lasted probably about 1/2 the hours they should have. Presently using Sophia Electric 6SN7 , easily as good sounding as the Black Treasures, no issues. My favorite NOS is Sylanvia