A recent encounter with a JC Verdier dealer as well as a recent Audiogon discussion thread led to the start of this thread. He was in my house updating my La Platine which had been in storage for ten years with thread and oil. While he has high regards for the deck, his newer clients nevertheless prefer a Techdas iii than an 'old' La Platine. Given the proliferation of expensive decks in the past dozen years, La Platine has become very much under-appreciated.
It's clear to me that the influence of the La Platine is everywhere to be found. Specifically, the magnetic suspension system that was employed 30+ years ago. Even SOTA offers their newer decks with mag. lev. features. And if you read this review: https://www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf, the Continuum Caliburn uses the same concept, which was not acknowledged in Fremer's review, albeit with more sophisticated , and expensive, execution.
It is also clear to me that there is much misunderstanding of the workings of the La Platine. I for one have contributed to this. The motor of the La Platine, for example, has been much maligned. The thread drive is another aspect of the turntable that have been described as inferior. With regard to the motor and thread drive, I have been set straight by Chris @ct0517 and Lyubomir @lbelchev. Experimenting with the different types of silk threads, the tightness to the platter and a renewed understanding of the soundness of the Philips motor have been rewarded with better dynamics and transparency.
The funny thing is that during the past two years of re-engagement with audio, I have questioned ownership of every components in my arsenal except the La Platine. It has always been a keeper. I wonder if La Platine owners would contribute to celebrating this 'old' deck with tales, advice, and insights?
I had a Platine Verdier with the MDF plinth for a year or two. It got slaughtered by my Final Audio VTT1 and hence I sold it off.
The following mods narrowed the performance gap - I removed the sprung feet, and cut marine ply inserts with stainless steel thread inserts embedded. These were friction fitted into the cavities. This enabled me to use rigid footers with adjustable height to level the deck. The removal of springy feet and installation of rigid footers improved timing and pitch stability ( in conjunction with the thread belt, which was superior to the rubber belt ). I also used the supplied ball to ground the platter - using dial calipers I was able to keep the platter lift to about a thou of an inch, which meant minimal load on the ball. This mod cleaned up the high frequencies, but was quite subtle. After comparing many mats I settled on a Barium Lead Acrylic composite manufactured for Sumiko in the 80’s, with a Final Audio record weight. Lastly - the motor was crap. Very noisy. In the end I built a cradle clamp for the motor that sat underneath the top cover of the motor housing. The cradle enabed me to clamp the motor at multiple points. By adjusting pressure to the motor I found I could minimise the noise somewhat. I also replaced the rubber feet on the motor unit with 3 adjustable feet so the motor could be precisely levelled.
Replacing the weedy motor drive with my Final Audio VM7 motor system - larger ac motor driven by dual sine and cosine wave generators and 60wpc power amp - showed that the Verdier motor is useless.
Similarly with the bearing tolerances. On my Final Audio which has a 26kg platter with an inverted bearing, it takes about 6 hours to get the platter down after relube. Compare this to the Verdier, where the platter goes straight down after relubing. In other words the bearing tolerances on the Verdier are appalling by most standards.
So in a nutshell, if the Verdier where my only TT I would go for the Callas bearing and find a better motor drive system. Probably replace the MDF plinth too. So the only useful parts in the Verdier are the platter and magnets - everything else requires upgrading.
Honestly, before offloading the Verdier, I compared it to a Pioneer broadcast idler with the same arm & cartridge mounted. This showed how out of control the Verdier was - the Verdier was more transparent, but the idler had better timing and pitch stability. Since then I built a Garrard 301 up for my 78’s - this ( again with same arm & cartidge ) creamed the Verdier by miles in every aspect, though still not in the league of my reference Final Audio.
Very nice write up for all the relevant components of the La Platine. A lot of information, and I did peak into the link from Audio Qualia which is new to me. The Magna Audio and Galibier Design sites, I am familiar, but never knew the ebony feet was meant for the La Platine. And It was a good surprise to see the motor - control from Galibier finally ready to be adapted to the La Platine. But at $2,999, a bit stiff for me.
Your posts raised more questions, for me, than it answers. I’d like to fire a few and hope to learn more:
1. When you got the TT did it come with Tron’s Battery powered motor only? Were you ever able to compare the ‘stock’ motor with it? There are quite a few reports of the sonic improvement of Tron’s battery powered motor here. Would like to have you elaborate more, if possible?
2. The Discussion on plinth material on the Audio Qualia site is very involved. It does seem that the research conducted favor resin as one of the optimal plinth material. And does that mean the LaPlatine produced by Auditorium23 with the resin / terrazzo plinth has better resonance characteristic and therefore sounds better tag the MDF ones? I know that @ct0517 who has commented here has the ‘ granite ‘ version, and touts the superiority of his deck. So granite deck better than mdf?
3. I don’t understand how the ebony feet from Magna Audio, which are beautiful btw, are attached ? Do you remove the existing aluminum feet by unscrewing? And what are the sonic benefits?
4. You have replaced the footers of the Symposium platform with Townshend pods. Why? That combination had occurred to me before, however, I had thought the Symposium couplers and the platform work in tandem?
I could go on, as you post provides much curiosity. I stop for now and waiting clarifications.
A number of people have commented on the various modifications /improvements that can be made to the Verdier Platine. I have had mine since 2001; bought from GT audio UK, the then importer. It has the battery power supply and controller, rehoused motor (6kg), ebony arm boards etc. PLINTH: My understanding is that the plinth for the Verdier platine has undergon three transformations. The first was a concrete/granite aggregate mix, pink in colour that was expensive to make and difficult to produce . This was replaced with a particulate/resin mix that could be produced consistently and was mainly grey in colour. The last itteration was a black MDF (i think) plinth. there is an interesting comment on the original plinth by Keith Ascenbrunner of auditorium23 ( www.auditorium.de).
It is also worth accessing the Audio qualia web site (www.qualia.webb.com) as it goes in to some detail regarding the key parameters for TT plinth materials; especially regarding the relevant damping factors and resonance characteristics. After exploring the webb site it is difficult to justify anyone using slate or MDF for a plinth. You can draw your own conclusions. MOTOR: The motor probably attracts the most comment both positive and negative. With a bit of tweaking some of its presumed weaknesses can be overcome and Callas audio has some suggestions to improve it. (www.callas.audio.nl). A number of people have used the original Terres motor or the one produced by Tom at Glabier audio. I understand that he has reintroduced his latest motor and controller with a new tape belt for the Verdier Platine. I think that it retails at 2,600$. I woid be tempted to modify my motor with a new Drelin pulley and flt belt from Tom. So something for the future. FEET: There could be some merit in decoupling the pneumatic feet as you have two springs in the original Verdier; the magnets and the feet. Whatever belt that you use (thread, round rubber or tape) will act on the platter and the springs and disturb its equilibrium. Again Callas Audio has some interesting information and measurements regarding defeating the original feet. It is easy to do by placing some wooden blocks on whch to suspend the plinth and come to you own conclusions. I decided to do the thing properly and had a set of ebony feet made that fit into the recesses made by the original feet. They were made for me by Magna Audio in the UK (www.fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio) There is a picture on their web site titled 'solid ebony plinth feet'. They have an aluminium insert to take the ss levelling screws in the platter. I have to admit that I am obsessive about levelling the TT. I use a lathe bed precision level that is 30cm long and therefore perfect for the platter. My TT sits on a Symposium ultra platform which in turn is supported by a set of Townshend footers. With the motor housing you have over 70kg to support PLATTER There is not a lot you can/need to do with the platter except play with different mats and record clamps. I have tried, felt, cork, glass, carbon, fibreglass, bronze etc., and ended up going back to the original 'lead ' mat. However, Acoustical systems has a modification they call an SDS acrylic plater that sits on the original one and is supposed to dampen and decouple the spindle by using a gel resevoir etc. (www.archer-headshell.de/accessories/sdp) AS have also made arm pods that sit on the plinth of the verdier. BEARING Again, Callas audio used to do a Mod Kit for the TT that contained a larger bearing with smaller tollerances than the original and using a different oil to the Rocol ultracut oil as well as a ceramic ball for the top of the bearing. I assume that this will affect the braking that the original oil is supposed to apply to the platter. How this will translate into what you hear i do not know.
Like most things; the science will give you the data, sometimes the information but only you will decide on its relevance to you.
The venerable J Gordon Holt reviewed the MC 2000 for Stereophile in 1985. The cartridge, if NOS, would be at least 20 years old. My interest with this super low output cartridge is due to a recent acquisition of a current mode phono stage, Channel D Lino C 2.0. It seems a perfect candidate to run through the Lino.
@lewm Would you happen to know the input impedance of the cartridge? And how are you amplifying the darn thing?
I suspect you all are correct about the fact that the suspension of a vintage cartridge will have aged, inevitably. But does that really matter, when one is getting pleasure from the sound emanating from that cartridge? Why waste time perseverating over what the actual compliance might be, when you can have fun listening? If you choose a Tone arm and head shell with effective mass that work well with whatever the compliance is, then you may not ever need to know the difference. Speaking specifically of the Ortofon MC 2000, it is my opinion after a few years of using one that this cartridge is capable of magical results, but it is highly dependent on the nature and character of the amplifying device, because its voltage output is so low. So it is rather like a Chameleon.
for that matter, even brand new cartridges come to us with a stated compliance from the manufacturer. What do you think is the margin of variability of that number from the actual compliance of any single given sample of that cartridge? I would bet that it is a wide tolerance. I would also bet that most if not all manufacturers do not test individual samples for compliance.
@barbapapa Thanks for the update. According to a post by @ct0517, it retails for $13,995 in the US. I seem to remember purchasing it for closer to the its present French domestic retail price.
the suspension of a cartridge usually lasts for 5 years like car tires. when it deteriorates it will change the compliance of the cartridge. most people may say that "I’m using a cartridge older than 5 years and it sounds great so the suspension is ok.". actually it is not. you need to measure cartridge-tonearm resonance and if it matches the calculated resonance than it’s ok. if it doesn’t there is a high possibility that your cartridge’s suspension is gone.
@ledoux1238
I surely did not mean to imply disrespect for the classic TSD 15.
I didn’t take it as a disrespect. that’s perfectly alright. on the contrary I don’t want to give the impression like I’m obsessed with my equipment.
ZYX and EMT are different than alike. EMT is a dynamic and lively cartridge ZYX is a smooth and full bodied one.
One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.
I had a chance to use Ortofon MC2000, MC3000, MC5000 and 75th anniversary cartridges more than 10 years ago. all together at the same time. I used them not too long but enough to get their sound signature. they all need their dedicated SUTs and none of them can match today’s good MCs let alone top ones.
vintage cartridges from the 70’s and 80’s are comparable in quality to the some of today’s more expensive offerings.
you got a point cause I have seen poorly build expensive cartridges but incredible good built ones too. old cartridges’ build quality may be better than today’s ones but I don’t think their sound is better.
Also, I am quite interested in how you ended with the La Platine ?
I was always looking for a robust heavy turntable and La Platine was one of the candidates. when a friend told me that he is going to sell his La Platine I made my decision about buying his.
On the Cartridge end, I have been persuaded by the opinion that vintage cartridges from the 70's and 80's are comparable in quality to the some of today's more expensive offerings. One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.
It's a fallacy.
The likelihood that a cartridge suspension still operates correctly after so many years is close to zero. I would not subject my valuable record collection to the abuse from a clapped out cartridge just to save a few dollars. The damage on vinyl from mistracking, even unheard, is massive and permanent.
Unfortunately there seem to be a few on this forum who promote vintage cartridges, but the reality is that finding a NOS example or new stylus is almost impossble for most of them ( some on this forum are resellers of clapped out cartridges - buyer beware ), and ultimately more costly than a reasonably priced modern cartridge.
on the other hand EMT TSD15N SFL may not have top price tag but I won't call it entry level.
I surely did not mean to imply disrespect for the classic TSD 15. I applaud your choice of cartridge. Unfortunately, my precent current mode phono stage will not accommodate the 24 ohm inner impedance of the EMT. However, I do run a ZYX Ultimate 100. Would you offer a quick comparison of the two?
On the Cartridge end, I have been persuaded by the opinion that vintage cartridges from the 70's and 80's are comparable in quality to the some of today's more expensive offerings. One of the project right now is to seek out a vintage cartridge, something like an Ortofon MC 2000, to pair with the SME V.
if you ever do change it with Kondo please consider owning SL-115 headshell cables and Ls41 armcable too.
Yes, there will be the eventual direction I'd go. Thanks!
Also, I am quite interested in how you ended with the La Platine ?
I wondered what is your thinking on using 'entry' level cartridges?
because unlike other equipment cartridges are consumable products (at least that's what I think). their life is about 500 hours. it will extend to 1000 hours only if you're lucky (doing the right things like cleaning records, gruv glide etc.) retip cost is very high if the cartridge is expensive. I installed 5 Kondo IO-M cartridges for my friends in last 8 years and it sounds terrific if you can afford it. on the other hand EMT TSD15N SFL may not have top price tag but I won't call it entry level.
And I have decided to keep it. Any advice on how to optimize the arm with the TT?
I think that's a good idea. I changed my SME V's internal wiring with Kondo 11 years ago and I never regret it. stock van den hul silver internal wiring is terrible. Kondo silver wire definitely transforms SME V. if you ever do change it with Kondo please consider owning SL-115 headshell cables and Ls41 armcable too. a friend of mine has a Kondo tonearm and it is actually a modified SME V-12 with Kondo wiring all over.
1. I like very much your cartridge collection, not the least because compared to the Overture amp and GE-1 phono stage, they are decidedly 'modest'. I wondered what is your thinking on using 'entry' level cartridges?
2. I had a damaged SME V which was returned to SME for refurbishment. What I got back, as far as I can tell, was a brand new arm! And I have decided to keep it. Any advice on how to optimize the arm with the TT? I see Kondo wiring throughout.
As I had mentioned, a local audio reviewer did an extensive, photo by photo, presentation of the adjustments through AnalogMagik for VTF, azimuth..etc, as they appear on the screen of his laptop. The time consuming nature of the process was palpable. And several adjustments, I think especially on azimuth, he could only get close to the optimal settings. However, for all parameters, he concluded that, the software created better sound quality across the board than his previous efforts, presumably by ear.
@mtemur As you have confirmed, AnalogMagik is a sophisticated piece of software. And its great to have you share your results. What does your analog setup consists of ?
In the past few months, I have made seriously effort to recalibrate and re-engage the tonearm / cartridge set up process. Due to the sloppiness of my previous efforts, some of the La Platine speed issues, may very well be setup errors on my part. I am less concerned with the speed related issues or the motor. When properly set up, the micro-dynamics coming out of vinyl is quite something.
Adding additional surge tanks, help enormously to smooth out air fluctuations, improve air flow and hence SQ.
even the big ones come with surge tanks don’t measure better than %0.07 with Analogmagik.
@ledoux1238
1. On the La Platine that measured .046%, you mentioned that the magnets are centered and perfectly aligned. Aren’t all La Platine like that? And the pneumatic suspension has been defeated with a static suspension?
yes La Platine comes as magnets aligned but magnets are not screwed or fixed. they can move during transportation or removing and installing platter. magnets need to be moved inside magnetic ring/case in order to perfectly center. additionally lower magnet should be placed on the plinth at the exact center with spindle. in order to achieve this space between inner magnetic ring and aluminum base that holds spindle must be equal on all sides.
Sorry, but I don’t understand the nature of that particular La Platine.
it was a regular La Platine but carefully aligned.
@ledoux1238
2. Regarding speed stability, are you in favor of a servo speed controller, like the Roadrunner ?
No I’m in favor of basic DC motor controllers and DC motors. all servo controllers make some kind of cogging effect. I don’t know if the term is right but what I mean is servo controllers may always ensure perfect 33.3 rpm but prevent super smooth rotation.
@ledoux1238
3. This question is an aside. I am wondering about the use AnologMagik to optimize SRA / VTA. I have fallen into the camp where VTA is adjusted for every record played as the Trans Fi Terminator allows for VTA on the fly. Adjustments on the AnalogMagik is a one time thing. How does it account for record thickness, hence variations in SRA?
I simply adjust VTA using a 180g record and don’t change it for other records. yes thickness of a record effects VTA and thus the sound but tonearm’s coupling to armboard and being rigid on base/fixing bolts is effecting sound much more. if you can achieve same rigidness on your tonearm’s base and when you change VTA the tonearm’s azimuth, zenith etc. alignments don’t change then it’s ok to adjust VTA according to record thickness. Analogmagik is a great software. it’s very useful but it takes a lot of time to learn how to use it because a bad reading on one alignment such as VTA, azimuth, anti-skating etc. may be the cause of another. that’s why if you are not very sure what you’re doing Analogmagik can lead to a bad alignment and it can give more harm than good.
The AnologMagik kit has been reported quite extensively by our local audio community. Up til now, I had the mistaken impression that cartridge alignment was its only use. Rereading a local blog, track 3 on the test record does indeed deal with TT speed as well as wow / flutter. In a way, your finding should not be that much of a surprise? The magnetic bearing is La Platine’s main feature. If the table is leveled, the bearing tolerances correctly executed, then two spinning magnets should maintain ‘absolute’ horizontality, or at least provide the least deviation from horizontal. That was my simple logic when I first set eyes on the TT. And now your result bears it out.
You mentioned other TT such as Techdas. In my recent fiddling with my air bearing tonearm, I have found the control of air fluctuations is a real issue. Adding additional surge tanks, help enormously to smooth out air fluctuations, improve air flow and henc SQ. An air bearing TT like the the Techdas might not offer the best wow / flutter performance as the control of air pressure / fluctuation is essential but a bit more work than magnets, I would think.
I have a few questions:
1. On the La Platine that measured .046%, you mentioned that the magnets are centered and perfectly aligned. Aren’t all La Platine like that? And the pneumatic suspension has been defeated with a static suspension? Sorry, but I don’t understand the nature of that particular La Platine.
2. Regarding speed stability, are you in favor of a servo speed controller, like the Roadrunner ?
3. This question is an aside. I am wondering about the use AnologMagik to optimize SRA / VTA. I have fallen into the camp where VTA is adjusted for every record played as the Trans Fi Terminator allows for VTA on the fly. Adjustments on the AnalogMagik is a one time thing. How does it account for record thickness, hence variations in SRA?
I’ve tested wow&flutter of lots of high end turntables (each around 20000-50000 USD) and lots of vintage direct drives in the last few years. I used Analogmagik software mainly for the tests but I also used WFGUI, platterspeed and RPM. all of them have different standards and gives different readings but the best and professional one is Analogmagik software with dedicated test record. I also tested some of the test records and found out Analog Productions test record is not very accurate (not related with subject but especially it is not accurate on azimuth either) on the other hand Analogmagik and Ortofon test records are very accurate. I don’t know how Hi-Fi News test record performs. anyway I ended up using Analogmagik software and AES standard. according to my test results most high end decks measure around %0.07-0.09 (AES). vintage high quality direct drive decks measure around %0.08-%01 (AES). La Platine Verdier turntables in good condition measure %0.05-0.06 (AES), better than all of the decks I’ve tested including top models of Techdas, SME, Da Vinci, Thorens, Kronos, Thales, Transrotor etc. one La Platine Verdier even measured at %0.0460 but it’s lower and upper magnets are centered inside their magnetic rings and perfectly aligned to face each other. it uses standard Philips motor and Transrotor large belt. motor is placed as close as possible to platter. additionally platter might be statically balanced to further improve this already good measurement.
speed consistency is another issue but you can never get precise readings with strobe discs or other stuff like that. you need Analogmagik or platterspeed kind of program and test record. RPM is also good but needs calibrating with a test record. the main problem with speed consistency is temperature changes in the bearing. when temperature changes viscosity of oil in the bearing changes and so the brake force. if your turntable has an encoder or ac motor the control mechanism will readjust motor’s speed. if don’t you need to check it with a basic tool such as RPM for every 2 hours of playing. in order to get exact speed first of all you need to adjust it with a precise tool. after obtaining exact speed then you can use simple tools to correct it when needed.
Ming is a friend of mine. He lives in Northern Virginia. I've heard his physically enormous system many times. I have his contact info, but maybe I should not divulge it publicly. If you can figure out how to contact me privately via Audiogon, I will share his email address.
@dracule1 It's a bit of a mystery. On a Stereo Times' review of the La Nouvelle sometime after 2014, Sorasound is listed as the US distributor. However, the La Platine does not show up on Sorasound's web-site. And I afraid I no longer have Ming's contact.
Maybe writing directly to France is the best bet? Would someone in the know chime in?
@dracule1 I think Ming Su is still the US dealer for JC Verdier. I bought mine in 2003 from Ming through Audiogon. Ming also reps Goto Horn speakers from Japan and his contact is : info@goto-unit.com.
1. Are you maintaining the pneumatic suspension on the plinth while using the tape drive? 2. What kind of tape are you using? 3. Have you tried shortening the tape drive with a closer motor to plinth distance? 4. Keeping the tape on the very lower portion of the platter seems to be the consensus regardless of drive material. 5. I notice that you have the SS Strain Gauge on the Thales. Have you tried the SS on the Schroeder Ref. ?
@topoxforddoc Yes, you just place Delrin pulley on motor spindle . Be sure to have small screw on the bottom to tight it to spindle. Pulley should have convex sides and my diameter in the center is 10 mm. On the top is 8mm. You might go to center with 12mm. I forgot original dimensions. It is very important because smaller or bigger R can prevent you to get right speed with motor range. I can not measure right height but from the top of the motor metal housing to top of the pulley I have 23mm. You need longer for the space bellow metal housing. You can make flat pulley - but it is very difficult to put tape on it - leveling of plinth and platter should be perfect with motor pulley.
Hi Lew, '...The reason I regret selling the luminescence is purely related to my high regard for it as a classic piece of audio design. But you can’t keep everything. ...'
Thanks for that clarification. I think it expresses my sentiment quite aptly. The Lumi has been a treasured piece of classic. I guess I am moving on with age and in the process of pursuing other sonic priorities.
' .
I would guess that the line stage of the luminescence adds 15 to 20 DB of gain to the signal it receives from the phono section. Can you live without that? '
Hmmm......George recommends 60 db min and 500 ohm max from source. The MC cartridge in use is .48 mv. I may be okay, but will try when the Lumi returns.
@vuckovic I think both you and Lew have made very similar points about the Lumi, i.e. vintage sound but may not be the ultimate sonic expression in many areas. I had suspected that to be the case, and now confirmed by those who know and my own listening experience. My regard for the Luminescence is quite intact, nevertheless.
@mijostyn I will observe once vinyl playback is in operation.
With regard to the La Platine or La Nouvelle, does anyone recall any other TT where the drive system, the motor, and the plinth suspension are all subject to tweaks and experimentation? Clearly, those who expound that the original thread drive, motor, and suspension have enough integrity for continued use would frown upon the tape drive, after market motor, and suspension-less plinth crowd. Between the purist, the agnostics, and the undecided, I fall into the third group.
Having experimented with various threads and belts, and concluding on the superiority of thread, tape drive enthusiasts appears, claiming improved sonics no less. The aftermarket motor crowd were well documented before starting this post. But the suspension-defeat methodology was new. @vuckovic I don't know how I missed your use of the Stillpoints on your first post.
Seriously, can anyone think of another turntable system that is so 'open sourced'? Somehow the SP-10's or the Denon DP's are not quite the same. The drive systems are refurbished and used as intended. I find the 'rainbow' spectrum of JC Verdier turntable owners to be quite fascinating!
Hi Ledoux, I am now using three different phono stages all of which are full function preamplifiers. These include atma-sphere MP1, Manley Steelhead, and Raul‘s phonolinepreamp. The first is all tubes. The second is a hybrid of transistors and tubes. And of course Raul‘s phonolinepreamp is all solid state. Truth be told I prefer all 3 of these vs the Lumi. I sold the luminescence way back when I first purchased the MP1. The reason I regret selling the luminescence is purely related to my high regard for it as a classic piece of audio design. But you can’t keep everything.
if you really want to insert a passive line stage in place of the line level output stage of the luminescence, you need to make sure in advance that you will have enough gain and that the impedance matching between your luminescence and the passive line stage and between the passive line stage and your amplifier are acceptable. I would guess that the line stage of the luminescence adds 15 to 20 DB of gain to the signal it receives from the phono section. Can you live without that?
@vuckovic Would you mind sharing the dimensions for the 1/2 inch tape drive pulley for the stock motor spindle? I've got stacks of half inch audio tape in my home. Do you just pull off the standard brass V pulley and push the replacement delrin one onto the motor spindle? Thanks Charlie
I do not use original suspension - you can read my first post in this discussion. I am not surprised you got more transparent sound with Lightspeed attenuator - it just shows you potential of your system. Lumi has vintage sound - great dynamics, body and texture. On other side it lacks ultimate transparency, details, frequency extension and see- trough soundstage - those were the reasons I did not want to go that route. Finding something between is very challenging.... If you are happy with Lightspeed's dynamic and body in your system - you have winner combination...
@vuckovic and @junk981 In corresponding to Thom Mackris of Galibier Design, he advised to defeat the suspension of the La Platine in order to use the tape drive with his motor. Since you are both using tape drive, is there a problem with the tape staying on the pulley?
@mijostyn Thanks for your advice. I have moved onto a Trans- Fi Terminator Linear tracking arm from the SME V. As mentioned elsewhere, the LT arm is far superior.
Regarding my pre-amp, MFA Lumi, situation, I hope it will not cause a distraction from the topic at hand. However, it is integral to the analog chain, and I could seriously use your help / opinion, so please bear with me. I have Lumi A1 or A2, with two transformers in the PSU as opposed to four in the B-2c series. In my correspondence with Scott Frankland, he regarded the B series as the 'most advanced'.
@vuckovic '...Lumi is still the world class preamp!...' The high regard given to the Lumi, I believe, is primarily for its phono performance. With the La Platine / Trans- Fi / ZYX entry level cartridge combo, the soundstage bleeds right out of the sides of the ET LFT-8b's. The depth, layering, and 3 dimensionality ..etc are quite something, hence my push on the TT front to get more. Instinctively, I know the Lumi will not only keep step, but is driving the herd.
While I only listen to cds' 20% of the time, the listening experience is very different. Not unpleasant, but everything is scaled down, the 'stage is restricted, resolution is down, and I am straining to hear the ambience of the venue...etc. The thinking was that the culprit lies with the vintage Wadia 16 until about a month ago. As the Lumi was sent for repairs, I decided to plug the Wadia directly into the Von Gaylords Nirvana mono's. With its own digital volume control, I was listening to a more resolved, more transparent, and slightly larger soundstage presentation. It seems clear that the Lumi line stage was the issue.
I wonder if your audio buddies or @lewm can confirm the disparity between the line and phono stages in the Lumi? If not, then I really need to get it fixed by Scott!!
@lewm What have you moved on to after the Lumi and why the regret?
For now, I am leaning towards using The Lumi strictly as a phono preamp through the Lightspeed Passive Attenuator. In other word, keep the goodness of Lumi and optimize elsewhere. This passive device is proving to be quite something and a subject for another post. @lewm I think you are skeptical of this one.
Ledoux, You have a fine turntable. A small, low torque motor was used because you do not want it interfering with the steady rotation of the heavy platter. It adds just enough torque to keep the platter spinning. If you remove the string and spin the platter you will able to cook dinner waiting for it to come to a stop. Yes, you want as little tension on the string as possible, too much and the platter starts influencing the motor! The platter slows the motor down, it fights to catch up to speed and overshoots and as you have noticed you get wandering speed. Using the SOTA drive system will improve speed accuracy for sure but I am not sure you will hear a difference. Keep your feet as they are. Your plinth is just fine. The SME V is a fine arm but you will need to add some mass for most MC cartridges. People will complain about the arm having poor bass because they fail to do this but set up correctly you would be hard pressed to fine a better arm. The only arms I would desire above it are the Kuzma 4 point and the Reed 5T. The 5T in particular is very intriguing. It is a brilliant design. My hat is off to those guys. I will never own a DD turntable. Putting an oscillating magnetic device under a phonograph cartridge is the silliest thing I've ever heard of. The improvement in speed accuracy over any decent belt drive table is undetectable by the human ear. I mean wow and flutter in this regard. There are people who can hear the slightest pitch differences. Fortunately I am not one of them.
I too have owned two Luminescence’s. Never had a problem.However it is a complex circuit, and it would be impossible to guess from a distance wgat might be going wrong with yours. If Scott Franklin is still alive and well, he is the obvious choice for you to get a permanent fix. That should not be happening. I regret that I sold my last luminescence several years ago.
Ledoux1238, I am very familiar with MFA Lumi. My best audio buddy has 2 of them. They are very reliable and I am surprised you have ongoing problem. My friend suggested you to check rectifier in the power supply portion. Also you should contact designer Scott Franklin at Wavestream in California. I am saying all of this because Lumi is still the world class preamp! It will be very difficult to match its sound.
@vuckovic Thank you again for the insight into the Herron and the Lamm.
I have been tore away from the La Platine experiments since my MFA Luminescence crashed with a soft 'thud' three weeks ago. This happens every four to five months with my beloved pre-amp. I have come to accept its idiosyncrasies. However, this past occurrence has led to a complete rethink. After much consternation, I have opted to go with a Lightspeed Passive Attenuator and still in search of a phono preamp. Hence my interest in your thoughts on the Herron.
Herron VTPH-2a was my darling - it was one of the rare components I kept for long time. Sound is perfectly balanced between SS and tubes. With details, transparency and dynamics it comes very close to best SS. In addition to it, Herron adds just a touch of tube magic - perfect balance for my ears. I have tested it against very best phono stages on the market and never felt urge to change it. Also Keith's service is second to none. 3 of my audiophiles buddies bought VTPH-2 after hearing it in my system. Enough said! Eventually I replaced it with Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe. Why did I like Lamm better? Lamm has clearly deeper bass - giving some kind of real life lower frequency foundation. You know when you go to live jazz concert in very small venue and you sit in front of musician - my perception was always like - damn! this does not sound like my system. There is no artificially increased highs, sound is dark, dynamic like hell, with beauty of tone and texture. That is Lamm. It sounds more like real life than Herron. Herron might be more transparent with more details but the reason for that is ultimately lack of lower frequencies depth and resolution. Do not get me wrong - many audiophiles would prefer Herron because it sounds a little bit Hifi. Many people love that kind of sound and that is absolutely OK for me. From my experience and my tastes - up to $10K I am not aware of better sounding phono than Herron. If your listening priorities tends to be towards Lamm buy LP2 used. It should be in price range of new Herron.
@vuckovic You are right, no point in selling the La Platine.
As a total aside, I noticed that you are using a Herron VTPH-2a. As I am in the process to searching for a phono stage, I wondered if you would share some thoughts on it?
Ledoux, I decided to keep Verdier because it is not worth to sell it. For the money you can get on the market you can buy nothing which comes even close to its quality and sound. I will keep it forever. My main TT is AF-3P where I have 3 tonearms, on Verdier I have 2 tonearms and I also use occasionally Versa Dynamics 1.2 with its own tonearm. A lot of choices! Ha!
Just to clarify few things: - I was talking about AF-3 Premium version of TechDAS. It is way better than regular AF-3. It is also more expensive .. I think like 40% more. - Tron use the same Verdier motor with some upgrades I assume (?). He made a very nice battery power supply for this motor. That would be its main advantage . I did not have time and wish to compare his battery power supply with mine. Both works great but mine is way cheaper. - Verdier motor generally makes noise. I think that Myler tape actually is the main reason why is that noise is not transmitted to my platter. It is much cheaper to make Derlin pulley and use tape than to buy a new motor. Otherwise Verdier motor is excellent. My friend who has 2 Verdiers has tried several motors of very prominent TT manufacturers and was very disappointed. One of them had W&F of 0.2%!!!. If you use tape find black Mylar tape ! Silver one is peeling and leave residue on platter.
@vuckovic Thank you for that concise summary of the AF3. It solves a year old curiosity about the sonic differences between it and La Platine. Rereading reviews of the AF3, I am struck by the contrast between the two. With the AF3, you are operating in highly controlled environment. There is even provision for a spacer dictating the correct distance between motor and plinth! And despite the sonic advantages of the AF3, you have decided to keep the La Platine. I think it speaks more for the French deck. And you are right, I won't be saving up for the AF3.
I am still in the tweaking phase. And in my last post, I have serious doubt as to a substantial 'braking' force acting on the platter. The platter is spinning on its own inertia if not acted upon by any drive material. In order to allow the platter to do its thing, there should be as minimal a force acting on it as possible. This is what you have found with the loose drive material and short distance between motor and platter. This observation is consistent with mine.
What is most interesting is your arriving at better SQ with the tape drive. Tape has the best combination of least friction and better control of the platter? Definitely an avenue worthy of exploration. I was going to investigate a Tron motor, but perhaps a Delrin pulley or a Galibier motor using tape drive?
@dover Your post should be underlined with 'It's the motor, stupid!'. I have reluctantly come to this only very lately.
@ct0517 Chris, thanks for that short excursion into your analog world. I find your table fascinating. Even more so, your experimentations on the ET 2.5 are inspirational!!
But when I got Graham motor I tried rubber, original thread and some special fishing string as a belt again before I changed it to Delrin pulley and mylar tape. Difference was huge and striking. The highs were so dirty and compressed! I could not believe it. I measured speed (3150hz) and W&F ( 0.07% ) using AnalogMagik software. The only conclusion would be that these tiny thread and string transmitted huge noise to platter! Hard to believe but it is my experience.
From my experience of owning the Platine Verdier, the motor is the issue. It is tiny, and not really designed for side loads on the spindle. Ultimately it will generate noise, which is transmitted via the belt. No doubt the delrin pulley helped you in this case. If you ran a double pulley, with a flywheel mounted on the opposite side of the pulley from the platter, you could reduce motor noise by "balancing the load" on the motor spindle.
By the way, I remounted my Verdier motor into a cradle clamp arrangement inside the main housing and eliminated the rubber mounts. This enabled me to reduce the motor noise significantly by reducing noise from the motor case itself by carefully tuned clamping. I replaced the rubber mounts with teflon washers. This arrangement also improved speed stability.
As a test to get a handle on the performance of the motor, I ran my Final Audio Parthenon AC motor and controller, driven by a 60wpc power amp on the Verdier in a trial ( both with thread drive ) - the improvement in timing and drop in noise floor were significant. The Final AC motor is dead silent, even though its about 4/5 times larger, it has a proper machined spindle, oilite bushes, thrust pad arrangement.
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