@dover Thank you for the primer of AC motor. Going down this route in search of an upgraded motor would really require quite a bit of research, certainly not a plug and play option. Just a quick search on ebay on ac motors turned up various vintage models. Quite bewildering! I will report back.
@pindac I reached out to Nick, though I am quite out of my depth here. The LDA is not a drop-in solution vis-a-vis the existing Verdier Motor / controller. Modifications will have to be preformed to the existing or coupled to a new ac motor?
It has been quite an interesting turn of discussion. @phantom_av This line of discussion may not have been what you were looking for, but certainly food for thought. It was certainly for me. Thanks all!
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@ledoux1238 There is a Thread on this forum that made a reference to the LDA.
The use of the device is to have it receiving the Input Power from the Power Cord and the output from the device will connect to the TT's IEC Power Cord Connector, hence supplying the TT with a improved power upply.
The first time I ever heard it in use was as a prototype, on a system that has a substantial purchase value, and the Idler Drive and Belt Drive it was used with showed substantial improvements.
Later down the line I had a loan of the final design for a few months, and put it to use in other systems and against other Speed Controllers the LDA was the preferred device being made known by all attendees at the arranged demonstrations.
On a UK forum there were also reports being made where it was stated attaching this device to CDP's or CDT's ? had a very noticeable effect for the better as well.
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While I don’t have much experience on AC vs DC motors, I agree with Dover that for AC motors, a 2-phase (or 3-phase, depends on the motor) controller is very beneficial!
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@ledoux1238
AC motors vs DC.
I'm sure some will debate but here is my take -
AC motors lock to frequency and any speed errors are self corrected by the fields within the motor. DC motors rely on measurement and feedback to maintain speed, in other words they require speed error to draw more power from the power supply.
Also AC motors, when they speed correct, the recovery behaviour is sinusoidal. When DC motors are corrected, the recovery behaviour is trapezoidal. So in my view the speed correction is smoother and more benign with an AC motor.
DC motors rose to prominence because DC controllers are simple ( voltage controlled ) and cheap to make. Speed controllers for AC motors are far more complex because you have to control frequency rather than voltage.
Now from my experience with a huge range of TT's I have a view that you want a big AC motor. My reference TT uses a regenerated power supply, a preamplifier that generates both a regulated sine wave, and a separate regulated cosine wave to drive the two sides of the motor. The preamplifier feeds the sine and cosine waves into a power amplifier that drives the AC motor. The motor is about the size of a decent sized fist and drives a 26kg platter.
Compared to the big Micro Seikis that use DC motors, my reference has far better speed stability and precision. Same when I tried the reference motor on the Verdier - massive improvement. Specifically the bottom end is much cleaner and tighter.
I also have a couple of idlers - Garrard 301 & Pioneer/Exclusive broadcast idler.
The idlers slaughtered my Platine Verdier again on speed stability and precision, bottom end timing. Though not up to my reference TT they are the closest of any other TT's I have experienced. I omit the Technics SP10mk3 from this comment - it has a very tight bottom end and good timing, but the grey wash and lack of transparency compared to my reference I find not musical.
I have come to the conclusion that the key to the idlers is not just the lack of elastic rubber belt, but I think the large AC motors employed contribute to the "idler" sound.
Discussions I have had with Win who designed the Saskia suggest we are in agreement. His suggestion for the Verdier was exactly what I proposed - pull a big AC Paps motor out of an Empire - no-one makes AC motors as good as these any more. The AC motor in my Pioneer/Exclusive broadcast idler is about 50% bigger than the Garrard and it is dead quiet, as in dead, unless the idler wheel is engaged you cannot hear a thing.
Nobody makes these AC motors today.
I note that the new reference from SME, the model 60 has an AC motor.
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@dover What is the advantage of a AC motor?
@pindac Thanks for the LDA reference. But I am afraid I have no idea if this controller can be adopted to a Verdier motor? How is it done with the Garrards' and Lencos'? Very intriguing!
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A Speed Controller I have had as a loan item and has proved to be improvement over my owned speed controller, is the LDA Quartz Locked model.
Additionally all who have encountered it in use, from my period of loan, have all agreed, the use of it has provided noticeable improvements to the SQ.
This assessment of the improvements offered has been for a Garrard 401, Lenco Models and Non Synchronised Belt Drive TT's the LDA has been attached to.
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When I had a Platine Verdier defeating the suspension and using silk thread for drive improved the speed stability considerably.
For motor, in my view, the best is a super quiet decent size AC motor with controller. Best option here is a pull an AC motor from an old idler - Empire or Garrard. They will outperform any DC motor. There are plenty of speed controllers now available with the resurgence in idlers.
Next best is the Sota Eclipse system - its a no fuss plug and play.
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@phantom_av Can you describe your set up, what kind of thread / belt? if thread, are you using the original? how tightly / loosely are you applying it to the platter? what is the distance between center of platter to motor spindle?
The reason for the questions is that speed fluctuation was an issue for me a few years back. But I now use a pure silk or a viscose thread, experimented with thread tension, and motor distance to platter. I am not bothered by speed fluctuation as the music flows so much better. I guess if you have experimented and things are still no better, then you are much more sensitive to speed than I. If you have not experimented, I would suggest you try.
I do believe the most 'cost effective' motor option is the SOTA Eclipse. I have written to Donna at SOTA to confirm the supplied spindle will work with threads.
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So anyone has a solid experience with Motor Recomendation? Anything that can be purchased. Im still getting Speed fluncutation with the original motor and want to upgrade this. Iv put a 5KG copper Mat on mine. The current motor is struggling so it seems.
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@thekong Mea Culpa. Re-read Framer’s review of the Caliburn and it’s pretty clear on how the magnetic bearing is deployed. However, I thought the whole point of using the magnets without contact was a way to ensure no wobble.
My VTA regiment with the very short arm wand is to do some adjustment on almost very record.
I finally will order both ceramic and s.s. balls to experiment.
I wondered why for Mr Verdier the ball was an afterthought? Did he not consider the potential sonic impact?
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@ledoux1238 , I think you have confused the Continuum with the Rockport. If you look at Fremer’s review on the Caliburn in Stereophile , he clearly stated that the Caliburn used "conventional" ball and thrust plate bearing, but with magnetic levitation, keeping only 6 lbs of pressure on the ball. The review also mentioned, Mark Doehmann, designer of the Calibure, believed without the contact point (the ball), the platter would wobble and vibrate to some degree no matter how carefully the platter was machined. No platter could be 100% perfectly balanced! However, Doehmann’s new turntables, the Helix One and Two, don’t seem to employ magnetic levitation!
Also, if you don’t use the ball on the Verdier, then with or without record weight on, or with different record weights, will certainly affect the platter height, therefore the VTA / SRA. That is not something I want to deal with!
I have not been experimenting with record clamps and weights. While I have the Goldmund Silver and Black, Sota, Teres on hand, I am just casually using the discontinued KL Audio weight on the Verdier.
Bests,
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@thekong BTW what record weight are you using?
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@thekong I suppose with careful adjustment of the ball / platter interface, you could allow a fraction of the weight of the platter to bear on the bearing. This will achieve a more controlled bass response according to the reviewer of the mod kit above.
According to an early poster on this thread, Mr. Verdier began supplying the ball after requests from customers, and thought the the deck would work without the ball; so the Mod Kit was an attempt to improve on a perceived weakness by some, but not by the maker.
What is a bit confusing for me regarding the reviewer’s comments on the Mod Kit is the claim that the Continuum Caliburn uses magnetic bearing with adjustable bearing weight. From what I can find, the Caliburn is an air-bearing, vacuum hold-down deck. The newer Continuum Obsidian however does employ magnets.
I am not using the ball.
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@ledoux1238 , the Callas kit is nice! I have looked carefully at the photos of the parts, and "I think" I know how it works. I would be interested to get a set if it was still available!
However, instead of the ability of easily adjusting the height of the spindle, I think the biggest improvement comes from the tighter tolerance bearing. For the spindle height, IF the theory is that the best adjustment is for the ball to just touches the platter, and bear as little weight as possible, then I may have, inadvertently, arrived at the best, or nearly the best, adjustment without the Callas kit. Now, if I only have a bare platter on (i.e. no mat, no LP), the platter floats so slightly above the ball, probably a fraction of a mm. I can push down on the platter with my fingers and feel it sink slightly. With the mat and LP on, the platter rest solidly on the ball with no play.
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@thekong Yes, indeed!
And in fact, the deck is fitted with the Callas Audio Modification Kit. Please note the spindle piece behind the platter on the left. The modification allows the adjustement of the platter weight on the spindle bearing. This presumably enhances the bass performance of the La Platine, among other benefits.
A review of the Mod kit can be viewed here:
www.callas-audio.nl/Callas%20Platine%20Mod%20Kit%20Review.pdf.
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@thekong For the sake of flexibility, the arm pod is best separated in two pieces, a column with a mounting plate. And with your column allowing for two heights, it is even better. I am thinking about adding a second arm. With my setup, the new arm will have to be a pivot type, hence my curiosity.
I seem to recall an Airline mounted on a Verdier, but search as I might, no image showed up. Yours may well be the first of such a combination. Please update when it happens, would be interested in your observations.
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@ledoux1238 , I have mounted the Schroeder on the armpod, but yet to align the cartridge. The brass arm column I am using is similar to the one you posted, but with 2 levels, the bottom level is 65mm tall and the 2nd level (you can call it a spacer) adds another 10mm. This is designed to give me more leeway when mounting the Airline, which requires a minimum clearance of 30mm in height between the armboard and platter surface.
The buffer system David and I were using for the Terminator was a 2 stage setup, the first stage was an Airtech tank, which was originally designed for the ET, at around 4-5 gallons in size I think, the the second stage was a smaller tank at around 1-1.5 gallon. That worked well, but I suppose a larger tank would be even better if there was no space restriction.
Bests,
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@thekong I am wondering if you have a preference between the Kuzma or Schroeder arm? I realize it's more an arm / cartridge issue, but is one arm a better fit for the Verdier? Do you need two different arm-pods for each arm? Any arm height, clearance, or set up issues one need to look out for?
BTW, I learnt a lot from Daiwok regarding the Terminator. He turned me onto the idea of additional air filtration. I wrote to Vic once regarding filtration, and it appears that he had always been using the generic 1 gallon tank!
@phantom_av Do you currently use an anti-vibration platform, DIY or otherwise?
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@ledoux1238 , yes, my friend is David, aka Daiwok .
@phantom_av , yes, I am always skeptical about these audiophile brand anti-vibration devices! They seem to be no more than basic industrial devices with a better looking casing. I have looked at the Stacore, and it seem to be a passive pneumatic devices in a fancy slate case. The passive pneumatic device is nothing new. Is it better with slate? I am not sure. But if you think the slate makes a difference, you probably can have similar, or better, performance by putting a slate plate on something like a vibraplane, even better on an active vibraplane .
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Stacore stuff is very pricy, MinusK been arround for years and seem to hold better value for money, Stacore seems to market the stuff to audiophile and as a results puts a audiophile price tags on its products.
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@thekong The Terminator is underrated. If you had used it before and liked it, then wait til you hear it with a 150 litre surge tank / buffer setup. It becomes Terminator Se+ version! I run it at 1.30 psi. Members here have operated with pressure as low as 0.5psi.
A 16" version would be something to see.
Does your friend go by "Daiwok'?
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The Terminator is a nice arm, especially considering the reasonable price. My friend, who was a founding member of Lenco Heaven, was a good friend of Vic, so I had a set of Terminator plus Salvation for a little while. As I remember, it sounded best with the lowest air pressure, which still enable the arm to operate normally; something like 1.3 or even 1.1 psi if I remember correctly. Of course, buffer air tanks were also a necessity!
I still have a custom made 16” version of the arm sitting in the box somewhere in my friend’s apartment, and I have never seen that arm in person! Must be around 10 years already. Crazy old days 😆
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@thekong I use a LT tonearm, Trans-Fi Terminator. The arm, originally designed and built in the UK, is made in Russia now. I requested an after market arm- board from the producer of the arm as he too has a Verdier. It is laminated from Finnish plywood and carbon fiber. And I level the plinth as well as the pod before mounting the tonearm. I has to use a spacer plated under the arm pod with my previous SME V to overcome clearance problems.
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@ledoux1238 , those arm column and armboard are nice! Actually, I have something similar made locally.
If you are using the stock armboard, have you measured the leveling of the platter against the armboard carefully? In my unit, the leveling between the two is off, i.e. if one is leveled, the other is off. I have to place 2 name cards as shims under the armboard to level it against the platter. If your unit have the same problem, you may need to consider some aftermarket armboards.
Best,
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@thekong Thanks for your updates.
I have seen either double or single platform on Micro Seiki's. But for the double platforms, they tend to be the same non-suspension footers for both. With Verdier users, I have seen different suspension platforms used on plinth and motor. That seems quite counterintuitive, to say the least. But apparently, that's how it's done.
https://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio/armboards-pods-plinths?lightbox=dataItem-kzb7w47a
https://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio/armboards-pods-plinths?lightbox=dataItem-kkr568g8
Links above are to Steve's Magna Audio web-site in UK with beautiful ebony arm-boards.
Your idea of an arm-board that straddles both mounting holes for the Kuzma Airline will be the most stable way to mount a linear tracker on the deck. That would be an interesting project!
Regarding threads, I am using a viscose and pure silk threads from Japan. However, I have toyed with trying the K5 kevlar threads used on Micro Seiki's.
I have been following some of your past posts, especially your experiences with the legendary Rockports. Very impressive!
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As Lewm has already mentioned, it is quite interesting that Verdier users, as a group, seem to be the only one who embraced the idea of using long belt / string and putting plinth and motor on separate platforms! Yes, I have seen some Micro Seiki users doing the same, but they are certainly in the minority. Even the insolation base developed by Micro Seiki for their 8000 MK2 placed the plinth and motor next to each other.
As mentioned, I have just started on fine tuning the La Platine. I started out using the Kuzma 4Point 14" with Dynavector XV1S, but I have just taken it out and going to put in a Schroeder CB with a VDH Colibri XCM for testing. Once I get a better handle on the La Platine, my plan is to make a large armboard, which can be placed across both arm columns, and install a Kuzma Airline. Will see how that goes!
To defeat the suspension, I simply placed some metal footers with height adjustment ability on the four corners, nothing fancy. Currently, I am just using some nylon threads, but will certainly test other options.
Best regards,
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The idea to separate motor from plinth comes from two sources: a local dealer and a fellow Verdier adopter in HK on advice from AnalogMgik’s Richard Mak. Mak is a champion of the deck ( I think he has two). He places the plinth and motor ( after market) on separate platforms with rather longish tape drive. That is how I thought I would proceed with a dedicated platform for the plinth, until both your gentleman’s, Lew and Michael, comments above. Further research will be required on my part. But one thing is clear now to me. MinusK may not be the right choice as a platform, especially for holding both plinth and motor. Size alone seems to preclude it. And I constantly tweak tonearm, thread length...etc, and each would entail a further platform adjustment!
@thekong 1. How do you defeat the suspension? 2. What arm(s) / cartridge are you using? 3. Are you using aftermarket thread or other drives?
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Hi Lewm,
You can read about how the NSM works here, but can’t say I understand it completely:
Yes, the feeling push down on the MinusK is so different from normal springs, so smooth and well damped, almost feels like hydraulic!
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Thanks for the correction. I wonder what is an NSM. If you push on a Minus K, it does not behave as if primarily spring loaded, which is to say that a spring will exert a force directly proportional to its degree of compression or extension from rest, among other factors of course. So, if you push on a spring loaded shelf, the shelf will get more and more difficult to compress, and the reverse happens when you release the shelf allowing it to restore its steady state position. The Minus K seems to exert a constant force restoring it to its steady state location, up or down. For this reason, I intuitively think or thought of it as using something other than springs, at least primarily.
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The MinusK does use springs, but probably not in the conventional manner.
According to their website: "Vertical-motion isolation is provided by a stiff spring that supports a weight load, combined with a negative-stiffness mechanism (NSM)."
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I would never recommend mounting motor and TT on two separate platforms especially if either one of the two is sprung or otherwise designed to move in response to external stimuli. In that case both devices must be on the same platform of course. (Minus K doesn’t use springs.)
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@ledoux1238 No, I have not try putting the motor on a separate platform, partly because it is not that practical in my setup, but mainly because I simply do not believe in it. I doubt that he remember this, but many years ago I had some email exchange with Thom of Galibier, where we talked about having the motor and plinth on separate platforms. I learned a lot about the drawback of such arrangement from him, and it all made sense to me. Even today, if you look at some of the top turntables with separate motors, such as the Kuzma XL and even the Walker, they all have their motors relatively close to the plinths. I think that is not a coincident.
About pneumatic platform, I have been using the floor standing model from TMC since nearly 20 years ago. I was thinking if it was good enough for Rockport, it probably was good enough for me. I have always been very satisfy with them!
While you can certainly test it yourself, I would strongly recommend against putting the motor on separate platform if you are using a pneumatic platform, and especially the MinusK. I have seen the MinusK working in my friend's system. It has very soft springs, so I am pretty sure the pull of the belt (if the motor is on separate platform) will affect its leveling. And yes, the MinusK doesn't like asymmetric load, so you may need to experiment with placing weight on different positions on the platform to achieve leveling. Also, it is so sensitive to the weight that if you use a record weight during setup, you will always need to use the record weight, or you may throw the platform out of level. It is because of all these inconvenient that kept me from using the MinusK, although, at least on paper, it performs even better than my TMC.
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@thekong Yes, getting an isolation / anti vibration platform will indeed be the next upgrade for me. You have opted to put the table and motor on the same platform. Have you tried motor and plinth on separate platforms? What pneumatic platform are you using?
Minus K had been a consideration. As I was going to put plinth only on it, I have read that Minus K does not like asymmetric loading. I wondered if any La Platine user might throw some light on this? Another contender is the Polish Stacore Pneumatic platform, though very pricey. The two most likely Options seem to be pneumatic footers by Pneunace Audio or a air bearing platform from FFYX, a Chinese audio co.
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Hi Lewm,
I agree with your assessment on the JC Verdier. After I came out from my 4-5 years sabbatical from audio, the first turntable that I bought was a La Platine. I have defeated the suspension, using a tungsten carbide ball on the bearing, and put the whole system including the motor on a pneumatic optical table. The motor is only a couple of inches from the plinth.
Although it is only early days on my fine tuning, my initial impression is that while the La Platine it is not as detail / resolving as more expensive (a lot more expensive) turntables, it is very musical and enjoyable. I have no doubt more fine tuning will yield further improvements. I think it is a very good deal with it's second hand price.
@ledoux1238 , before getting into motor or cartridge upgrade, I would suggest you consider trying some industrial antivibration platform, like the MinusK as Lewm has suggested, or some pneumatic optical platform if you don't mind having a compressor / pump unit. Good luck on your journey with the La Platine, it is indeed a very good turntable!
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@phantom_av Last checked, The Walker Proscenium is in its 6th iteration. But I seem to recall it’s price tag always hovered close to / above $100k. So if going from a Verdier to an early Walker was a ‘lateral move’, that’s quite surprising. Would you share other TTs that you have come across?
@lewm Thanks for your replay on your DD table collection. I think I first learnt of the Kenwood L07D from one of your posts. And I have since read up on quite a lot of vintage DDs. I have even contacted Peter Noerbaek of PBN audio about his modified Denon DN-308, a rare Denon used only in radio stations. Alas, it was quite a financial stretch same with Sp-10 mk3’s. Maybe a DP 80 would be a good start for a DD novice like me?
Regarding you comments on the top heavy and springy natures of the Verdier, quite honestly when I look at the table, those concerns do flash through my mind. The improbably large magnets probably ameliorate the high center of gravity issue to allow the high mass of the platter to do its work. I have inquired about defeating the spring footers. Thom Mackris of Galibier is an advocate especially with his tape drive. From a fellow La Platine user with thread drive, he claimed that using solid footers decreases SQ. I have not tried, even though it is an easy tweak. Frankly with my precent vinyl setup, Trans-Fi LT arm ( another item that you’d think would not work with the Verdier ), Audio Tekne MC 6310 / ZYX Ultimate Omega, Audio Tekne SUT, and a humble Sun Valley EQ 1616D Tube Phono, I am experiencing an extremely natural / real presentation, more so than ever. Quite happy with it. My only curiosity is with the motor, hence my post.
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ledoux, To answer your question posed 9 months ago, in June, my switch to one idler (a highly modified Lenco) and four DD turntables (Kenwood L07D, Technics SP10 Mk3, Denon DP80, and Victor TT101) was motivated more by curiosity than by dissatisfaction with belt drive, although in retrospect I am not sorry I made the changes, and in retrospect (remembering what belt-drives came before in my system), I can hear the reasons why. In fact, I am so attached to what I own that I could not bring myself to part with any of them. When I bought the TT101 I made myself a promise to sell the DP80, but it’s too good for the amount of money it would bring, and I use it for MM cartridges in my Sound Labs system, very happily. But I refuse to be dogmatic about turntable drive; the belt-drives I owned previously were not at the top level, whereas the Kenwood L07D and the SP10 Mk3 can at least compete with high end DD turntables. Among modern BD turntables, I really like the Dohmann Helix.
I have a fairly good grasp on the Verdier. What I would question is: (1) it seems too top heavy with the massive platter causing a high center of gravity. That combined with the spongy feet seems undesirable, because the belt exerts a side force, and the tippy chassis might tend to lean toward the motor on its spongy feet. Defeating the suspension and then placing BOTH the TT and motor on something like a Minus K platform, close together, would seem better. And (2) in both of 2 installations I have seen and heard locally, the motor is set far apart from the platter. Theoretically that is bad for belt creep and possibly for slippage. I think I brought this up much earlier in this thread and was rebutted by someone who said the motor is not necessarily to be set far away from the platter. If so, mea culpa, but it is in two cases I know about where the Verdier is the choice of two very fastidious and very knowledgeable audiophiles with ample funding.
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@ledoux1238 This was very early in the evolution in the Walker table. Even though mine looked pretty much like the current model, much has changed over the last couple decades. Honestly, for me, it ended up as a lateral move. I sold the Walker a few year after I bought it and don't miss it at all. I do miss the Verdier even though I currently have several very nice turntables. I consider the Verdier one of the great audio classics. The Morch DP-6 was a nice match IMHO. Enjoy.
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@phantom_av
Thanks for the update. Dereneville motors are indeed expensive as wth the rest of its line of TTs' and tonearms.
Regarding upgrades, I am looking at a air-bearing isolation platform for the Verdier rather than go the motor route. And I will update when appropriate.
What arm and cartridge are on your Verdier?
@vinylvalet
Would you care to give a breif discription on SQ improvement going from the Verdierto the Walker? I have read much in the drop of noise floor and the immense soundstage of the Walker.
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I had one in the late 90s with a Morch DP-6 tonearm. I replaced it with a Walker Proscenium Gold. I enjoyed my time with the Verdier, a unique and very good sounding design.
I sold it to a good friend in Little Rock, AR. He still uses it with a Lyra Kleos in a very top of the line Naim system driving big ProAc speakers. The last time I visited I found the sound quality of vinyl playback to be spectacular.
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Dereneville Audio to my opinion is not worth the money (5K for a motor!) and i was advised to stay away from it by another Analog fanatic friend of mine.
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Iv not really had time to get into all this for the motor, Iv been wanting to upgrade but find it rather dificult on which ones to choose and now considering if the simple tweeks might be sufficent enough for some SQ upgrade.
Spending 4-5 K just for a motor is not going to happen.
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@phantom_av
Did you explore any other motor drive and/ or battery pack conversion? I would be intereted in your search, if any.
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@phantom_av The assumption that switching out the stock motor ( with presumably a more expensive motor ) would amount to an 'upgrade' may need some comment. I begun this thread 1 1/2 year ago with the same assumption. I had speed stability issues. However, with experiments on threads, advises by more experienced La Platine users on how to work with thread tensions, and the Callas audio upgrade, https://www.callas-audio.nl/Platine%20tips%20&%20tweaks.pdf ( including the battery conversion ), I am very comfortable with how the stock motor is operating. There are definitely tweaks to look into for improvements. In speaking to a fellow La Platine owner recently who has converted to a Dereneville motor ( in the $4k - $5k range ), his advise to me was to stick with the existing motor. In a separate thread on the What's Best Forum, the same person stated that the Dereneville motor lowered the background and that he was happy to have made the 'upgrade'. However, noting his private conservation to me, he is really saying that it may not necessarily be money well spent. ( He did mentioned that a well considered isolation platform was a definite upgrade for the La Platine. ) Be that as it may, here is a list of motor options that I have researched as possible 'upgrade' : 1. Dereneville Audio has at least three possible model that would work. 2. Sperling Audio has two motors. 3. Galibier Design is marketing its motor with modification as a fit for the Verdier. Thom has commented on this thread with the advise to defeat the suspension of the Verdier for best results with his motor and tape drive. 4. SOTA Turntable has a motor paired with a servo system, i.e. Roadrunner, under its Eclipse series that would be another option that I seriously considered. You would have to construct a housing for the motor. 5. Jasmine audio has a motor which I own. Admittedly, this is perhaps not in the same league as the above motor systems. I have paired the motor with an Origin Live belt made for Micro Seiki. It is a different sonic presentation than the thread drive, a little closed in. My conclusion with the Jasmine is that a different motor would definitely change the complexion of the Verdier. But at what cost would the change be an upgrade? |
Can anyone advise on the motor upgrade or where to buy one? Or a Conversion kit to change it to a battery operated? |
While reading a review of VPI Titan on Mono & Stereo magazine, The writer, Richard Mak, mentioned the Verdier La Platine. He owns the Verdier with a modified suspension. He apparently used replacement springs that are 1.6 times stronger than existing.
How do you go about dismantling the existing suspension footers? Has any one attempted such a tweak? |
@pani
I appreciate the video and the beautiful motor / flywheel assembly. Yes, it comes from a very committed Verdier adopter.
Regarding tweaking the Verdier, there are two aspects. The first is to understand the original intent of the designer. With that understanding in mind, then deciding whether tweaking certain design features would improve sonics. The second is of course seeking improvements beyond the intended design. The past two years has been to learn not just how to improve the Verdier, but what the original design ideas were.
Defeating the suspension or replacing thread with tape would be examples. The Thread drive / Philips motor / plinth suspension is thought of as an integral package by the designer. Both the La Platine and the Nouvelle Platine ( I believe ? ) are suspended decks and they were meant to work best with thread drive. While I have tweaked with varies thread and belts, to me very fine silk, not viscose, threads work best. If one ventures into tape drive, with the original suspension intact, I wondered if you will hear improvements. However, in the video the table is sounding very nice and clearly improvements can be had by going beyond the original design parameters. This aspects of the Verdier decks is perhaps the most fascinating and at times, frustrating. |
@pani
I appreciate the video and the beautiful motor / flywheel assembly. Yes, it comes from a very committed Verdier adopter.
Regarding tweaking the Verdier, there are two aspects. The first is to understand the original intent of the designer. With that understanding in mind, then deciding whether tweaking certain design features would improve sonics. The second is of course seeking improvements beyond the intended design. The past two years has been to learn not just how to improve the Verdier, but what the original design ideas were.
Defeating the suspension or replacing thread with tape would be examples. The Thread drive / Philips motor / plinth suspension is thought of as an integral package by the designer. Both the La Platine and the Nouvelle Platine ( I believe ? ) are suspended decks and they were meant to work best with thread drive. While I have tweaked with varies thread and belts, to me very fine silk, not viscose, threads work best. If one ventures into tape drive, with the original suspension intact, I wondered if you will hear improvements. However, in the video the table is sounding very nice and clearly improvements can be had by going beyond the original design parameters. This aspects of the Verdier decks is perhaps the most fascinating and at times, frustrating. |
@ledoux, that youtube video was to tell you how far people have gone to tweak the Verdier. I did not get to that point because that would have meant usage of a tape drive (like in the video) with appropriate modification to the motor capstan and also the flywheel in that video is a very expensive one designed by the person himself. Yes, it sounds very good after all these mods.
The sound of the idler to me is simply superior to many belt drives I have heard (including Verdier). The issue with idlers is to find a well done TT which is low noise and high resolution. In that respect a Nantais Lenco or a Shindo Garrard is very well done with all the qualities of idler (speed, dynamics & flow) with a very low noise floor. |
@lewm
A slight correction on the platter weight, it is 18 kg.
It seems that 'high torque, low inertia' is a very common motor type. The low inertia refers to the non-moving part of the motor. And it is characterized by an ability to start and stop quickly. A 'high inertia' motor does the opposite, start and stop slowly and tends to be of the servo type. I believe even the Maxon that @Pani used is a high torque low inertia type.
The motor / thread drive choice for the Verdier is best explained, as @lbelchev mentioned, by the CS Port literature: allowing the inertia of the heavy platter ( 16 kg ) to maintain speed stability without the use of a servo ( high inertia ) motor. In the case of the the La Platine, oil applied to the spindle provides a corrective force / brake to counter stylus drag.
@Pani
Thank you for the additional information on improving the motor with DC conversion. From the Youtube link you attached, I notice the nice custom motor. That is the Maxon, I presume? The pitch of harpsichord from the clip sounds, frankly, good to me, even though one should not infer too much from the sonics of Youtube.
I still am quite struck by the reasoning of your conversion to an idler drive. The sound from the Lenco sounds more right to you, or that coming from the Verdier thread drive sounded wrong.
@lewm
I know you have many turntables, mostly DD if I am not mistaken. Is the preference due to something fundamentally 'off' from the belt drive format?
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