$18k Tube preamp for large scale symphonies please

BAT REX

hi i don't require long ic, just concern that it should preferably have phase switch & balance knob.
i find many have the extra emphasis on upper bass which i think the designers are trying to make vocals more enticing, most also can't create the sense of space if the preamps are focus on creating artificial warmth(midrange) instead of true harmonic richness. That's why it is difficult to satisfy all above requirements (including my earlier posts). i heard VAC and it's real good however it doesn't have balance knob & phase and its sonic have not reach a standard that make me willing to give up required features and to buy it.
Most tube pre sound quite similar in its overall presentation. i have to listen hard to find their difference, perhaps it's because i don't listen to vocals & jazz to hear their immediate differences. But VAC & Coincidence Statement are unique upon immediate hearing. i hope members here can tolerate my "stubbornness" if any as i have little experience on tubes. This several weeks is my first encounter with tubes. i wanna thank Charles & others whom make descriptive comparisons, and Ealph on sonics from technical viewpoint. i don't know why BAT REX keep showing up and why VTL doesn't?? can anyone explain? THanks again.

best preamp is NO preamp. Tthey all do something...

12-02-12: Cerrot
best preamp is NO preamp. Tthey all do something...
Cerrot (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

From my experience with NO to all types of preamps, it's a BIG POSITIVE if using the CORRECT active preamp.

I have no expertise with tube preamps but I've heard this one many times and for long periods and it' the most realistic and convincing I've heard: the Messenger Pre Amp.
http://www.acousticimage.com/MessengerPreamp.shtml
It hasn't changed much over the years and others have come and gone and yes, it's expensive and certainly there are others out there that can keep up and better it in some ways but it does meet your criteria.

Good luck in your search try everything you can before committing.

All the best,
Nonoise

"best preamp is NO preamp"
For some this may be true(system dependent).
In some systems the lack of a preamp may'not' be enough, as many find improved sound quality with a 'good' preamp in the signal chain.
This has been covered numerous times and I doubt any minds will be changed from either point of view.Which ever direction works best,follow it.
Regards,

An essential feature for me in a linestage is well implemented support of balanced inputs and outputs. By "well implemented" I'm looking for low output impedance and, if possible, galvanic isolation of the outputs such as via transformer coupled outputs. Since I like the capability to bi-amp, having a volume control on one of the outputs would be a great bonus. Even if you don't need these features right now, these may be something to keep in mind if your systemm veers in that direction.

Another overall system requirement, again for me, is the ability to reverse absolute phase on the remote (and yes remote control is a must-have for me). Ideally, this would be provided by the linestage, but failing that, the DAC would have to provide the capability. In that case, however, you're left without the ability to remotely switch polarity for non-digital inputs. The impact of absolute phase has become more important as my system has evolved.

I'm also evaluating linestages and appreciate all the input to this thread.

Passive preamps are colored just like any other component. If the coloration fits your system thats what counts.

If the preamp is fully balanced, doing phase reversal is a non-issue. We have had one our our preamps for the last 24 years.

One needs to be at the listening position to compare the sound of the alternate settings of absolute phase. There's no consistency in how absolute phase is oriented on recordings. Sometimes it isn't even consistent from track to track. That makes for a lot of back and forth to switch/listen/switch. Doesn't it make sense to put the phase switch on the remote?

If you are listening to a multi-track recording, the effect is not audible. It really has to be a true stereo recording to show up.

My experience is that a preferred absolute phase setting versus the opposite is easily audible on the great majority of recordings, true stereo, multimiked, mono, whatever. Now, we may have a semantic difference where the effect to which you refer may not be the same effect that I'm describing. One point, the ear is somewhat less sensitive to compression versus rarefaction. In any event, if someone doesn't hear a difference, that's OK by me.

hi,Can anyone recall the difference between Shindo, Doshi Alaap & Coincident Statement? it been describe that Doshi are kind of similar to Shindo or even surpass it,and i recall my dealer saying Shindo are very similar(90%) to Coincident, so i'm trying to triangulate the sound of them. Thanks a lot for any comments..

Philipwu, be careful I've heard from many (including one reviewer) that Shindo pres only work well with Shindo amps.

Shindo preamps work well with many amps, not just Shindo amps. I have Shindo preamps in 3 systems - An Aurieges-L with a Bedini 25/25 solid state, a Monbrison with an Accuphase P-3000, and a Masseto with Wavelength Cardinal X2 300B monoblocks. Each of those 3 pairings results in a sublimly musical presentation.

As per Grannyring, I agree with the TRL Dude suggestion. Don't let the reasonable price fool you. It is superb. I love mine, and it's the most natural, effortless sound you can imagine. I just received my Duelund cast caps and will be installing them soon, can't wait to hear the difference. FWIW: Paul is great to deal with

Based on my recent experience with Duelund Cast in my speakers and DAC I`m sure they`re excellent in the Dude also.

The Coincident Statement Linestage and the TRL Dude with CAST capacitors represent superb linestage results for a reasonable cost.I think it would be 'difficult' to out preform them regardless of cost.
Regards,

If you are looking for a linestage only, I would urge you to consider the VAC Signature or Renaissance.

hi Charles, sorry to bother you with questions again.
With some audition experiences, i found out there are 2 types of distinctive background silence. First type: imagine yourself on a huge plateau of grassland or perhaps on Antarctica (going for extreme!) where there's miles of open space, no walls,no civilizations, no birds & crickets sound, maybe wind you can feel but no sound of it. There's nothing to hear, pure absolute silence(seen such places on National Geographic!) Now if a live band is playing on such place, what you hear is music notes with its extension/decay and air around instruments (music float in space,no blurry imaging). We hear this music emanates from this "air of quietness" or ambience so to speak, no reflected sound or reflected harmonics. Coincident Linestage is few hair strands close to this type of silence where music emanates from, do you agree?
Second type(most common), imagine yourself alone in a closed hall/theatre (either big or small), and there's no sound. Now this silence you get is definitely different from the quietness you encounter in the first type, right? Sometimes if the hall is small enough,the silence may cause ringing in your ear. If the same band(from the plateau example) playing the same music in this venue(well design & properly damped), we'll hear a nice soundstage & its reflected sound, however, overall music would sound different from the former right? as the music it emanates from has a different type of silence, right? i think this type of quietness which we "hear" are generally refer as dark/black. Also tonally refer as tip down, IMHO, since the reflected sound is losing energy and the effects we hear is more of lower,tone down reverberation??
Charles,i heard VAC signature and it exhibit much less of this "tone down" silence characteristic compared to others, is this silence what you hear too?

Hello Phillip,
Not sure if I completely understand your analogy.The CSL is very quiet but in a nautral sense,as opposed to an artificial or over done 'black' background. What did you think of the CSL compared to the VAC Signature? Both are superb but different.I could be very happy with either.
Charles,

Charles,Yes! i understand your meaning of an artificial or over done 'black' background. So, what i trying to say is many many audio gears have this artificial black/quiet background, and VAC has less of this. The reverberation of notes from VAC are organic,clean & light but not as light as CSL. VAC has more weight, sounds tonally downward as oppose to tip up/airy.
With this consensus in us, is the Dude's quietness background you heard belong to the "black" background as you said or somewhere between VAC and the neutrality of CSL?? Thanks for helping me.
Regards.

Phillip,
Okay, I see where you`re going better now. I think the VAC does sound a 'bit' richer and the CSL relatively 'lighter -airier'.But overall both get to the core and the soul of music and do so very deeply and with conviction(many components don`t). I believe a lot of the difference with these two are the intrinsic sound of their different tube types(9 pin minature vs 4 pin DHT tube)and different approach to volume control.Everything matteres and has an effect on sound.I find both just excellent at the special subtlties,nuance and inner detail.

The trade offs are very modest(no two components are identical). The VAC has a fuller tone and body(very slight margin) and the CSL a slight edge in transparency(again,very narrow margin).The thing is, both have superb tonality and transparency(minute differences aside).
In the big picture I just find them both top tier and most important, very natural and realistic.I can`t imagine someone displeased with either one.

I have`nt heard the TRL Dude with the CAST upgrade so I can`t comment.Knowing the baseline Dude and aware of what CAST can do, this would be something for you to consider also.
Regards,

Yes, thanks Charles.
You are spot on with what i feel towards VAC and i know you understand what i'm trying to ask about Dude. just a slight pity that i haven't have the slightest idea how does the Dude sounds. Glad you understands me anyway :-)
Thanks.

Phillip,
Reading your posts and various impressions it seems you have very astute and musical ears. I get the sense you really love music and enjoy listening to it.Between the CSL and VAC SIG. it could simply come down to what amplifier you use and the make up of your system.

Both are ultra music makers and would make you very happy and content. Once you get to a certain level of performance it`s the little things you notice that will provoke a choice one way or the other. What`s the chance of getting both into your system, listen and just see what happens? Your ears will eventually decide.Both are fabulous, neither is 'perfect'.
Charles,

Philipwu,

I was in your position shopping for a preamp. I demoed pre (Einstein, Shindo Vosne-Romanee, Doshi ...) for months, in most cases it was in unfamiliar systems and they all sounded excellent. I could live with any of them and finally settled on a VAC SigMKIIa.

The sound you desire can be achieved through tube rolling with a GOOD preamp. The VAC SigMKIIa is very sensitive to tube rolling. With stock tubes, sound is soft, round, a bit veiled ... IN GENERAL, if you want transparency, open, dynamics ... use German tubes. Full body, sweet ... British tubes and a combo of both, Amperex, Philip Hollland. I use German tubes and also upgrading the fuse will improve the sound dramatically.

I suggest purchase a pre with EASY tube rolling options and dial in the sound you desire. Another good pre is Atma MP-1. I never demo but recommened to me by trusted ears. 6sn7 based so easy to roll.

If you plan to use your pre with many different amps, get one with low output impedance. From my experience, the ability for a pre to drive an amp properly is most important for excellent complete sound.

Phillip, What you are talking about here is low IM (InterModulation) distortion in the preamp.

Its one thing to have low noise, that is the noise floor with no signal. Its another thing to not have the preamp editorialize with the signal. That is the low IM distortion.

You need very clean power supplies and good bandwidth, plus a simple and linear active circuit to get there.

One thing that you may not have considered is the effect of the interconnect on the sound of the system. Interconnects can contribute to the 'dark background' aspect as well. It is the job of the line section in the preamp to control the interconnect cable. Most preamps whether active or passive do a poor job of this. What is ideal is if changing the cable makes no difference at all regardless of the cable.

You will not find such a preamp that uses RCAs but they do exist if the preamp is balanced (the balanced line system was created to eliminate interconnect cable artifacts). Something to think about....

Atmasphere, why don't you bring 3 different balanced interconnects to CES and let us see if you can hear differences. This can be done after hours.

hi Knghifi,
Thanks,your comments are very informative. could you describe your impression of Doshi if you can recall,what is its strength? any comparison would even be better, even if it is in a different system. just curious why many hail Doshi as supreme. i know individual taste varies hence your decision on VAC Sig.
BTW, you heard Dude before? your inputs are appreciated.
Regards.

Philipwu, I will try and help you hear the sound of the Dude (latest generation) with my words. The Dude is a full bodied, dynamic beast of audio. The stage is big, bold and effortless. The music is powerful, robust and never constrained.

In it's latest generation the Dude is richly resolving bringing out all of music's finer details and nuances. It seems to handle and pull off two things that are very hard to do at the same time.

1) Clear window to the music with SOTA resolving ability.
2) But the Dude is not light or overly airy. It is full bodied and the Dude portrays music with the meat, body and density I hear in the natural instrument and voice.

Tube choice is also important with any of these preamps. The Dude responds very well to tube rolling. Place Marconi 6sn7 tubes and you fatten the sound with a slightly warm personality. Use nice 1940 RCA's and the Dude is more resolving and intimate.

The bass is absolutely stunning in power and articulation. A real strength in this preamp.

Great thread with many great preamp choices. Life is a blessing!

Merry Christmass to all!

Correction - Merry Christmas - sorry for the typo.....

Phillip,
As said at the start of your thread, there are simply great linestages to choose from. You have gotten excellent suggestings from people who`s opinion I respect. We all will very proudly tout are own because we live with them and know how wonderful they sound. I can`t see you making a mistake, which ever route you decide to take. No single linestage(no exceptions) is going to be the very best at everything!the CSL,TRL Dude(with CAST capacitor),VAC Sig MK II,Atamasphere-MP-1 MK 3,Shindo. They all will make you happy.
Regards,

I respect the willingness of various posters here to offer suggestions and sonic descriptions, but, at the risk of repeating myself, so much is about synergy with the rest of the system, once the basics are nailed down, and dependent on the listener's own biases. I can't imagine trying to understand the nuances of what gear at this level sounds like in an appropriate system without hearing it for yourself, in your system. And I agree that tube rolling can make a huge difference, which just adds another variable to the equation, but one that can be fun.
Good luck.
Bill Hart

Jwm, pretty sure we will have at least two types of cables there. They will both be about 40 feet long. Would that be sufficient for you?

Yes we will talk at the show, thank you.

Philipwu, I heard the Doshi with a Doshi modified tube amp and horn speakers. Speakers are 105+db and it was very quiet. Typical horn strengths, dynamic, transparency, detailed, resolution, imaging ... I did find the sound a bit thin, bright and too analytical for my taste.

I bought my Vac new and Doshi has similar retailed price. Unless one much prefers Doshi sound over Vac, IMO, Vac is better value. Doshi looks like a homemade DYI project, not balance design, no features and much fewer connectors and no remote.

I have a TRL amp and other stuff but no Dude. From my experience with TRL, you can't go wrong getting a Dude plus Paul is a pleasue to deal with.

I think you need to narrow the pool of pre with a list of requirements besides just sound.

My list was:
1. Output impedance
2. flexibility - tubes easy to roll and number of tubes. Once I had pre with 12 tubes and it was expensive and impossible to find 6MP of rare NOS. This requirement ruled out Einstein and Shindo.
3. features, number of input and output connectors, remote ... I only use XLR.
4. relative value to competition.
5. reputation of the company.
...

dear members, Merry Merry Christmas to ALL, and enjoy more music, more songs. HO..HO..HO...

i understand most preamp suggested here are top line and i would be happy with them. i truely value all the suggestions and opinions given forth and especially some seniors whom are very helpful and patience with my queries and uncertainties. i also know there are no best preamp as each has their unique strength at each price points.
i would also like to mention my taste, so members here would understand why i'm still seeking while some of the very very good pre had being offered with its sonics fully described in their best words.. Thanks!
From my experience with Coincident LS and VAC, both are very good.As what Charles had said earlier, CLS is VERY airy, with decays extending into the space around you(fills your whole room) VAC SIG not as airy but more velvet and sweet, dynamics are a hairline lesser than CLS, above qualities heard only if you compare side by side. In bass area, VAC surpass CLS every way,it's further confirm by a review i read that 101D tube is not excellent in lower octave. But the main difference i hear is the dark black quietness from VAC as what Ralph said as IM distortion which give a sense of soundstage (but feels artificial to me because i'm hearing the event that is being played in their environment) whereas CLS has NONE, CLS make you feel the band transported into your room and you're closeup with the band. Now, your taste may prefer otherwise. However,i hope to find a preamp with CLS airyness but with Lesser in the room effect(maybe can be describe as slightly less airyness??) and have bass similar to Aesthetics. Because my music are often Large scale and unless i owns tennis court size room, the orchestral would fill my whole room and seems artificial, whereas small size music eg.jazz band & vocals would fit perfectly. I used these 2 pre to highlight the difference i felt about them and my taste. You may differ, but their characteristics they put across thru different system doesn't change as much, maybe because in high resolution systems. i'm not seeking the best but the right kind of ambience portrayal and organic feel for large scale music, not interested in pre that excel in male/female voices, or other genre. i could have describe more detail about other pre i auditioned and describe my taste in relation to them so you know my preference better but guess would be too long winded, hope some would understand my expression/analogy and offer their views. My dealers here don't carry much tubes for demo even thought they represent many brands, they have mostly SS mainly because lesser after-sales services, one of nicer dealer mentioned.
Thanks guys.
Regards & Happy New Year too!

PHilip,

To be clear...you describe 2 types of delivery: one that delivers the orchestra into your room, and the other that places you into the recording venue. Is this correct?

Which do you prefer? Sorry...could not quite separate out which you were saying. Generally, given that every orchestral/ensemble piece is recorded differently (some closer miked than others)...that 'ambience' effect is going to differ from recording to recording i suspect. Thus, one preamp is going to be difficult to control that particular effect.

Nevertheless, if you could guide as to which you seek, that might help.

Merry Christmas Phillip,
I understand your description of these two superb preamps and getting a feel for how you hear.Phillip one point has to be made though. Some of what you hear is related to the amplifier in use and really, the effects of 'all' the components in the system(personally I find the bass of the CSL natural and not over done).You listened to both of these preamps'but' in different systems.So while I do believe you got a good sense of the individual character in general terms, you`ll have to allow for the other variables.

I`ve owned my Coincident(CSL) for over 3 years.My friend jeff has had his VAC Signature MK II nearly that long also. We live just 10 minutes apart and have heard each other`s systems multiple times and usually long sessions.They both are exceptionally capable of'musicians in your room' and also 'you are in the recording venue'. I find it`s the recording that determines the site perspective more than the different ability of these two preamps IMO.

I find them both to be fascinating in their presentation and most important to me, they`re both utterly natural,emotionally involving(absolutely!) and have very convincing realism.Neither has any of the dreaded analytical,dry,2 -dimensional,flat,lifeless Hifi character.They do superbly preserve the true vibrant color saturation,dynamics,flow and energy of real instruments and voice.

Phillip you have a keen pair of ears and I`m very confident you will find that preamp that satisfies you.This is the beauty of an open market choice for High End audio components,there`s so much out there to choose from to please us individually.The CSL and VAC SIG. certainly represent a very high point of reference,Good Luck Phillip.
Charles,

I listen exclusively to classical music. I love large orchestral, chorale, and opera pieces. I also love sonatas, trios, quartets, etc. I like the large pieces to be "you are there", and the small pieces to be "they are here". Orchestral music benefits for better extension of both high and low frequencies, more clarity, more air, more transparency. Smaller pieces benefit from more harmonics, tonal color, and decay.

With the BAT Rex, I get both, and that is why I haven't serious thought about another preamp. There is a switch in the power module that allows you to go from the 6C45 (transparency and extension) to the 6H30 (harmonics and decay). I use 16 EAT Tube dampers, 2 HiFi gold fuses, 4 Reflektor 6H30 DR NOS tubes, and 2 Philips GZ34 from the 1960s. The rest are inexpensive Sovtek and generic Russian tubes.

Phillip,
Are you considering any solid state preamps as well?
Regards,

Pillipw, with some Tele and Siemens tubes, you will get all the air you need in a Vac Sig. Do you know the tubes in your demeo and power cord?

Yes BAT Rex is another excellent recommendation.

12-25-12: Charles1dad
Phillip,
Are you considering any solid state preamps as well?
Regards,
Charles1dad (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

That's the last thing he needs, more choices. LOL!!!

Hi Knghifi,
Phillip listens very intently and I`m curious to know if he`s tried any transistor preamps.Maybe he`s been there and done that already.There`re so many good choices in audio components you can find exacty what you want if you`re patient.It worked out that way for me, so it can for anyone else.
Regards,

One good choice is the Canary C900 four-chassis monoblock preamp, comprised of two power supplies and two preamps. Works especially well with complex music.

Charles1dad, I think most of us listen intensely. Now I'm wondering if he's barking up the wrong tree.

Philipwu, what systems are you demoing the pres? amp, speakers, cables ...? What ARC you find not good with orchestra music?

There are so many variables ... just using a wrong PC, tube, impedance mismatch between amp and pre ... could upset system synergy.

If we have the context of your demos, maybe we can offer some suggestions but I think ultimately you will need to find experienced local audiophiles to assist you.

i had heard a couple of SS pre like MBL, Ayre KXR, JeffRowland, Pass Labs, EmmLabs, Simaudio, Spectral etc... they all have the qualities of good SS but their note's extension/decays seems stiff.

i wonder if anyone else,other than Charles, is familiar with the CSL or heard it before, it's really special,it WOW me within 5 seconds, as for VAC SIG, it amazed me after 20sec into the music. i'm sure anyone whom heard the CSL would agree that it's extraordinary in every way(whether it's your cup of tea is another story though) especially the special ambience effect that's so clear and its decay are very organic and airy,it's airyness is floating around you, in your space. The airyness other gears often convey is the black darkness silence where you hear the music emanates from.
i like to refer to a review in Dagogo by Doug Schroeder, he describe VAC sig in contrast to P.A.D Silver Statement preamp: "general sonic character of the Purity Audio Design and the VAC preamp reminds me of the loose classification I have made between all copper and silver conductor cables. Copper tends to be thicker, denser and tonally turned down. The silver tends to be thinner, airier and tonally turned up"
Given my taste, i would strive to get rid of the tonally down effect, and prefer the CSL airier effect. It's this tonally down effect that many gears have and make me hear the music emanates from black (quietness)background. i'm not sure if people here understand my analogy and i tried my best to described. Maybe different people hear music differently, so i just wanna thank everyone whom had tried to guide me in any way.

Lloydelee21,you make out a very good point, guess i overlooked the actual recording itself and too focus on working the gears to my preferred "coloration". but somehow playing thru CSL,i could hear a difference in soundstage with reduce "darkness background" effect compare to Aesthetcs, CJ...

Rtn1, Thanks for sharing your experience, i had a quick read over your system page and Wow...Congratulation for achieving the ultimate realism with your system. i'll try to learn more of your system and see how to make it work for me, but gotta admit i don't have your kind of budget, certainly make me envious, thanks for appearing here. BTW, how much is the street price for Rex?

Knghifi, i appreciate your guidance especially rolling tubes, so much to learn! BTW, VAC is out because no Balance volume control. i'm unsure about the "darkness" effect that many many gears have can be eliminated by way of synergy? i think Atmasphere has already identified as IM distortion. My cd player already had it and due to "it", the sound has rich harmonics(read as warmth) played thru my YBA pre. As Doug Schroeder mention in one of his review, saying multiple components of warmth may "yielded a very thick and weighty sound".

Lamm Preamps are the way to go

BTW, VAC is out because no Balance volume control.

Good, a list will help you narrow down the pool of pre

I see there are a few Doshi preamps available