For those who don't know, Sound Lab drive their full range ESLs using two audio step-up transformers wired in parallel, one for bass and one for treble. Audio frequencies are divided by a first order crossover network (inductor in series with the bass transformer, RC network before the treble transformer) before being fed to the bass and treble transformers, respectively. I have done impedance vs frequency curves for my 845PXs, measuring Z at 50, 100, 200, 500, 1K, 2K, 5K, and 10K Hz, with the original bass and treble transformers in place, with only the OEM SL bass transformer in place, with only the original treble transformer in place, and with the aftermarket full-range 1:90 ESL transformer alone and in combo with the OEM SL bass transformer. I have the data in a notebook. So I think I have a pretty good understanding of the impedance of an 845PX. I use the speaker with the OEM bass transformer preceded by a small inductance, in parallel with my aftermarket audio step up transformer preceded by no filter at all. Efficiency is hugely improved; I would wager it could easily be driven by less than a 50W amplifier. My Atma-sphere amplifiers probably make 100W into a 16-ohm load, and they are coasting at high SPLs while driving the 845PXs, which appear in my system as about a 20-ohm load, using the generalization that Raul dislikes, but I can guarantee that Z never goes below 20 ohms below 5kHz. All ESLs are in effect giant capacitors, so it is inevitable that Z goes down as frequency goes up above 5kHz. As Ralph said, the big problem was the resistor in the RC network that was there to create a high pass filter for the (old) treble transformer. That resistor, depending upon the vintage of the speaker, could be as low as 5 ohms, or in later speakers as high as 8 or 10 ohms. The resistor creates an absolute upper limit of impedance at frequencies around the crossover point, because it is in parallel with the output of the amplifier. Thus, if you were unlucky enough to have one of the older speakers with a 5 ohm resistor, you were dealing with 5 ohms or less impedance at around 500Hz to 2kHz. That's also why you benefited from a very high wattage resistor in that RC network. Raul has a point about the very high impedance in the bass region using the OEM bass transformer; it's way up around 100 ohms and maybe higher below 100Hz. Yet, my OTLs drive it fine, as does Raul's friend's SS amplifier.
Elliot, For Sound Lab owners, the first thing I recommend is to bypass the "Brilliance" control, which is an L-pad in series with the treble transformer, much like the controls on your speaker. Alternatively, if you feel you need some treble taming, you could use a discrete resistor of an effective value in place of the L-pad. L-pad bad. No L-pad good.
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Problem is that speaker manufacturers never gives the whole impedance facts/measurements/charts. Tha’s why generalizations to say 8 ohm speaker spec means almost nothing. I choosed at random ( between hundred of ST measurement. ) and you can read there that your words are not exactly rigth with some of those speakers, same for maplifiers. Whenever anyone asks if a speaker will work with our amps I take a look at the impedance curve if one is available. But if the speaker is rated 8 ohms or more I pay attention, and if the speaker is rated higher, like 16 ohms, I’ve yet to run into one that didn’t work. I’ve seen some speakers, like B&Ws, that are rated ’nominally 8 ohms’ but feature dual woofers, which are wired in parallel, although the midrange and tweeter array is certainly what I would call ’8 ohms’. The woofer array, even though it may have peaks at 8 ohms or higher, is something I would regard as more of a 4 ohm load. So you do have to be careful about this issue; but in the case of higher impedances it usually no worried at all. The Sound Lab is not a speaker rated at 16 ohms or 30 ohms despite both impedances being present at some frequency. While it is difficult for most solid state amps to make power on this speaker owing to the 30 ohm impedance in the bass (which is why a tube amp of 150 watts can easily keep up with a solid state amp of 600 watts on this speaker), all this means is that you might see about 1/4 the power the amp is rated for into 8 ohms. However, and this is important, as the frequency goes up above about 5-7KHz, the impedance is dropping, to a low of about 1.5-3 ohms (depending on the setting of the Brilliance control) at 20KHz. Like almost any full range ESL, the impedance varies by about 10 or 9:1 from the bass to the highs. The issue here is that a good quality solid state amp will double power as impedance is halved. With a box speaker, this is fine because a peak in the impedance curve usually represents a resonance so this property is welcomed. But this isn’t the case with the Sound Lab. It needs about the same power in the bass region as it does in the high treble region to make the same sound pressure at that frequency. This means that an amp that can double power (and the Sound Lab does not challenge most solid state amps in that regard) will be excessively bright due to this property. To get around that issue, the Sound Lab is equipped with a number of settings to modify the speaker’s response. The Brilliance control is there to deal with excessive brightness, the bass settings allow you to boost or cut the bass, depending on if you have a solid state amp (boost) or tube amp (cut). IIRC there are midrange settings too. One nice thing about this speaker if using solid state is that the bass impedance (where the power is) is high, resulting in low distortion for nearly any amplifier. Low distortion means less harmonics from the bass notes, so an amusical harmonic like the 7th, 9th, 11th or 13th to which the ear is keenly sensitive, will be greatly attenuated. IME this is beneficial to all amps. The mod that @lewm did seems a wonderful upgrade for the speaker! |
I’m gonna 1. remove the L pads another advantage: the L pads in the back panel won’t be wired to the crossover/drivers inside, the back will come fully off. 2. annual tightness check
(nothing ever loose, but, to sleep better ..)
a. confirm the drivers are tight to the front panel, and b. the front panel tight to the case c. 15" Woofer off the front panel, I can check the paper cone’s condition, it’s been several years. d. I might drill more mounting holes on the metal ring of the 15" woofer, 4 just doesn’t seem enough for that 37 lb monster (although it is never loose when I check) 3. make a new set of speaker cables using this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/75FT-CAT7-S-FTP-Network-Outdoor-High-Speed-10Gbps-Shielding-Ethernet-Cable-...OFC, S/FTP, 24 awg solid strands (8 conductors equivalent to 14 awg) (might be 26 awg, equivalent to 17 awg, waiting for seller's answer) 12 feet long each, (2+, 2- : 50 foot roll will just do it) 16 ohm nominal. McIntosh chart says 18 awg, 16 ohms, max 60 feet long. Unless someone talks me out of it!!! |
If you want to add a single resistor to replace the L pad and adjust brilliance (like Lew suggested) Mills are great, those are the ones I use on my speaker and are very transparent, 12W BTW 28 ohms in my case.
Edit: in your case of course you might want to measure the lpad setting for resistance and replace with same value, my 28 ohms is very specific to my room and driver
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@luisma31 : Mills are good not great, great are the Vishay ones nothing can beats it.
R. |
So I heard Raul and I don't disagree. Practically for a speaker you will need quite a few Vishays per channel which will make it more expensive and more bulkier to install but yeah if you have the money Vishays are supposed to be great and Mills good (like you said)
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To me, Elliots findings make perfect sense.
1. A16 Ohm speaker will present a much milder load to any amp designed for 4-8 loads, usually resulting in less distortion. There are exceptions but very rare.
2. As the speaker’s impedance rises, the amp’s output impedance will become less of a factor, equivalent to higher damping factor. The amp will drive the speakers with more control. Frequency ranges where the speaker’s impedance drop even below 8 ohms will present no problem to the amp, again less distortion, more grip.
3. Because of the higher impedance of the speaker, the resistance and impedance of the cables will be less significant.
BR,
Davor, also a Covid recoverer :)
Take care |
RE_ 16 ohms: It makes sense that only putting out half the power (vs 8 ohms) with the same power supply and current could relax an amp at times, but I suspect otherwise.
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Hi @danvignau,
Reading Ralph's clearly written explanation it isn't difficult for me to understand why this is the case. As of yet I haven't come across a contrary explanation that reasonably refutes him.
An easier high impedance speaker load (Less current demand) would seem quite beneficial for all amplifiers. I don't see the rationale that a more difficult lower impedance (Higher current demand) to drive is a more positive circumstance for an amplifier.
Charles |
My 96dB/10ohm speakers sound much better on my amp's 16ohm taps than the 8 ohm. The 4 ohm taps are almost unlistenable. The 16 ohm taps bring out so much more richness, nuance, and detail. |
A question I always was curious about. My amp (FW J2) rates at 12w 4 ohms and 25w into 8. Yet when I connect my 16 ohm speakers ( Spatial TM) they rate back to around 12w. Never really understood how it worked that way. Figured I’d jump into this one and see if anyone had a brief explanation, thanks.
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Elliot, What you say to Cisco (Cisgo) may be true for an SS amplifier but for a tube amplifier, especially a transformer coupled one, the reverse is more likely, for a given tap on the output transformer: An amplifier that makes 12W into 8 ohms might make only 6W into 4 ohms. This is not always the case, and actual measurement is in order. Likewise, an SS amplifier is likely to double its power into 4 ohms vs 8 ohms, provided it can deliver the needed additional current, which depends upon the power transformer. But Cisgo apparently owns a First Watt amplifier, designed by Nelson Pass, one of the best and most innovative of all designers of SS gear. In the First Watt series, he is experimenting with different topologies and different types of output devices. So if Cisgo's information about his own amplifier comes from NP, I would accept it as gospel. And Cisgo, if you want to know why the power rating changes as you say, ask NP.
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I agree with lewm in that Nelson Pass used his First Watt designs to intentionally deviate from their siblings throughout the model line.
The J2 was designed as a single ended transistor amplifier using only 1 output power transistor per channel. Just as a SET amplifier utilizes only 1 output tube per channel.
So it makes sense that it will deliver less power into a lower impedance load if the circuit was optimized for an 8 ohm impedance speaker load. Some First Watt amplifiers are push pull and will behave differently. Basically whatever Nelson Pass was trying to achieve with the given model. Each F.W. amplifier is quite distinct.
Charles
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That is wonderful to hear Raul as I will be driving my Sound Labs with JC-1s at least for the time being. Dr West also highly recommends Atma-Sphere MA2's. The newer units have undergone significant changes in their interfaces. They do suffer from the same anomaly my old Acoustats had. Both designers were intent on making the speakers full range but for some reason that has to with transformer physics it is impossible to make a single transformer cover the entire audible range gracefully so both designers decided to use two transformers and a blending network to do the job. In my case I am crossing over to subwoofers somewhere around 100 Hz (125 Hz with the Acoustats) So, I do not need a transformer to go down low. Consequently I can get away with one transformer and no complicated blending network. This worked great on the Acoustats. I'll live with the SoundLabs for while before I start screwing around with transformers. Lewm relates that he bypassed the bass and brilliance controls. Dr West assures me there is no benefit in doing this. If it is easily reversible I'll give it a try. I am not fond on any additional stuff in the signal path particularly if it is not doing anything useful. |
It's always interesting to learn things here. Of course I have heard of the highly respected Nelson Pass, but never checked anything out. |
It makes sense that only putting out half the power (vs 8 ohms) with
the same power supply and current could relax an amp at times, but I
suspect otherwise. If you can find a solid state amplifier that makes more distortion into 16 ohms as opposed to 8 or 4, I'd be interested in hearing about it. Looking at hundreds of solid state amps over the years, I've not seen one. The one pitfall that you might run into isn't related to the load impedance so much as it is the intention of the loudspeaker designer. If that designer was intending the speaker to be used with tubes (as is common with 16 ohm speakers) then the design could sound bright (less relaxed) in certain situations. This is certainly true of ESLs with solid state (but the brightness there is due to a low impedance at high frequencies, despite a high impedance at low frequencies). @elliotnewcombjr Unless someone talks me out of it!!! Be prepared to work with a variety of values if you really intend to remove the level controls! I'd leave them in place if I were you (I certainly have done so with my speakers). This is simply because the speaker is designed without foreknowledge of the voltage response of the amplifier (IOW its a Power Paradigm device), so the control is there to allow you to adjust it to match to the amplifier . One way this can cause an issue is if you run a really long speaker cable as opposed to a short one- it might require a different setting of the level control since the apparent voltage response of the amplifier will be affected by the speaker cable (in the case of a really long cable) in series with the amp. I personally stay away from long speaker cables as speaker cables have errors unrelated to their DC resistance, and these errors (due to something called 'characteristic impedance') get more profound with longer cables. So I run short speaker cables and long balanced interconnects to get around this issue, since balanced lines can be run some very long distances without coloration (if they are set up correctly). Never really understood how it worked that way. Figured I’d jump into
this one and see if anyone had a brief explanation, thanks. @cisgo The J2 is current limited (helps keep the output device alive) and so power does not increase as the load impedance is reduced to 4 ohms. But because its output impedance is relatively low, its power output is dropping into loads above 8 ohms. This amp is best used with a higher efficiency speaker, and a 16 ohm speaker will allow it to behave as a voltage source as long as you don't overload it. |
Ralph, What I recommended to Elliot is that he first experiment with the settings of the L-pads in his speakers until he arrives at a solution that he wants to live with long term. Doing this would automatically involve accounting for the driving ampifier and the length of speaker cable. Once that steady state is arrived at, do you see anything wrong with swapping the L-pads for high quality high wattage discrete resistors that represent the resistance across each L-pad after their final adjustment? Anyway, that is what I would do. My approach is based only on listening to my Sound Labs speakers (first the M1s, then the 845PXs) with vs without the Brilliance control in circuit. Big improvement in transparency and air without that L-pad.
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Dear @mijostyn : JC-1’s are great monoblock amplifiers and is unfortunated that today are out of production because can compets or could be a true challenge to even names as FM Acoustics, Boulder, Gryphon, CH, Dartzeel and the like. Years ago I meeted by first time to the JC-1’s that were handled a pair of superlative Dynaudio Evidence speakers in the room/system of a friend of a friend of mine. I readed in those times about the Evidence speakers but never imagined that were handled by so " humble " Parasound amplifiers and was a glorious listening time with both friends and we reapeated that kind of listening session several times. Here the Evidence: https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/286/index.htmlNow and this you can be absolutely sure that no tube amplifier can beats the Soundlabs/JC-1’s experience and you can be sure too that the Sounlabs- self powered subwoofers ( 80hz-100hz. ) combination is a must to do it no matters what. Enjoy it. Btw, the 16 ohms issue really matters to tube amp owners, not many 16 ohms speakers in a market with 90% ( at least ) of 4 ohm-8 ohm nominal impedance specs. In the other side SS amps as the JC-1’s can handle from low to high impedances where you can’t detect the small increment in distortion level. When a tube amp normally ( manufacturer spec. ) has 1% a SS amp with low or high impedance could goes to 0.2-3% when the manufacturer spec overall gives 0.01%. Normally tube owners " can’t " listen 1-2% of distortion in their amps or just do not care about. With a little of patience any one can buy second hand the JC-1’s for very good price. John Curl made very good design job with. This is what I'm talking about: https://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/774/index.htmlR. |
Ralph, What I recommended to Elliot is that he first experiment with the
settings of the L-pads in his speakers until he arrives at a solution
that he wants to live with long term. Doing this would automatically
involve accounting for the driving ampifier and the length of speaker
cable. Once that steady state is arrived at, do you see anything wrong
with swapping the L-pads for high quality high wattage discrete
resistors that represent the resistance across each L-pad after their
final adjustment? Anyway, that is what I would do. My approach is
based only on listening to my Sound Labs speakers (first the M1s, then
the 845PXs) with vs without the Brilliance control in circuit. Big
improvement in transparency and air without that L-pad. I don't doubt it. But as I said, if you make changes in the amp or speaker cables you might find that you want to change the setting as well. Once you know what it is, of course a fixed resistor of good quality will be better. JC-1’s are great monoblock amplifiers and is unfortunated that today are
out of production because can compets or could be a true challenge to
even names as FM Acoustics, Boulder, Gryphon, CH, Dartzeel and the like. The JC-1 was a good solid state amp for its time, but like many other amps from that time didn't have enough feedback to really sound neutral- and that is why it can be a bit bright and harsh- all due to distortion. Combine that with an ESL and its going to be very bright... fortunately the Sound Lab has adjustments to allow you to adjust the speaker to the voltage response of the amplifier, so you can tone it down a bit. The reason the distortion is there is due to insufficient feedback. This prevents the distortion caused when feedback is applied to be suppressed. Put another way, feedback suppresses distortion, but then makes some of its own. To allow the amp to get rid of that, you need more feedback, and most of the solid state amps of this era (and before) lacked the Gain Bandwidth Product and phase margins that were needed to run the required feedback. So they simply didn't. So ya picks yer poison; harshness and brightness, or a little extra warmth but the highs are detailed and relaxed. This is why tubes are still around BTW; solid state is supposed to be 'neutral' but its hard to call it that when its bright and harsh. |
Dear @atmasphere : Totallñy wrong about the quality level performance of the JC-1’s or today top SS amplifiers where almost all of them are non-feedback and many pure class A, the JC-1’s works in class A with its first 30 watts.ear . Did you heard the Evidence’s mated with the JC-1’s or the top Soundlabs with those monobloks or with other top speakers? " all due to distortion .." what are you talking about, where are your facts? as always only bla, bla, bla and low knowledge level audiophiles here and elsewhere think that because you are a tube manufacturer you are the bible on amps but about SS you have nothing and always you trying to diminish the SS alternative with no facts and the only reason you do it is that you are taking money as other tube manufacturers from low knowledge level audiophiles that unfortunatelly just have no idea how live MUSIC sounds at near field position. As all of us you are a member of the corrupted AHEE and unfortunatelly you are the darkness part of that AHEE. Here it’s the measured " distortion " of the JC-1’s even at 1 ohm where puts nothing less than " 4.2kW into 1 ohm (27.2dBW, magenta). The latter is equivalent to an output current of 64.7A! " https://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurementsThis is the J.Atkinson conclusion after he finished the measurements and along that it’s the review down there: " This is excellent measured performance. The Halo JC 1 is not only the best amplifier to come from Parasound, it ranks up there with the best high-end heavyweights. " If you don’0t have true facts/measures on what you said stop to spread your poison/false information and please learn that live MUSIC at near field position is everything but warm and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm, extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ). Recording microphones are " seated " at near field positions not at 20m-30m. Warm, sweet, relaxed, and other ridiculous adjectives to explain the MUSIC sound in a room/systems is exactly what the corrupted AHEE teachs/teached for the last 50 years to audiophiles but that AHEE in this specific subject were and are only spreading lies deceiving/misleading audiophile gentlemans only to take their money and people like you even try to explain that kind of deceive with no facts. I don’t care what the audiophiles like ( it’s a personal privilege. ) but with out any doubt all the tube owners are listening ( no matters what ) something really away from what the recording microphones pick-up during recording sessions and in the other side good SS electronics designs ( like the " old " JC-1’s. ) puts any one of use nearer and truer to the recording where tube is only a " caricature ". Go a head making money, nothing wrong with that but stop to spread false information against SS that you can’t prove or proved and learn from other tube manufacturers that never post in any internet audiophile forums that totally false information in favor of tubes and against SS electronics . Learn from all those honest gentlemans. R. |
" all due to distortion .." what are you talking about, where are your facts? Your inability to understand the facts isn’t my fault. I’m writing this so you understand that I presented the facts *already*. If you actually have a genuine interest in learning more of what I posted previously (instead of simply acting on a desire to make me wrong), google ’Gain Bandwidth Product’ and ’phase margin’ and read up. Then you will see why what I posted is correct. FWIW these are engineering topics and may be a little dry. For more information you might also read this article by Bruno Putzeys on feedback. In this one you don’t have to work out the math, if you allow yourself to trust that he did his math homework (in case you don’t know who he is, Bruno is one of the top designers of class D product in the world, responsible for the Purify and Hypex modules): https://linearaudio.net/sites/linearaudio.net/files/volume1bp.pdfAfter reading this article, you should understand why the Parasound is running insufficient feedback, and so has a brightness. Ignorance is curable- stupid is forever. I’m pretty sure you’re not the latter, so now you have an opportunity. |
Dear Raul you posted above {all the tube owners are listening ( no matters what ) something really away from what the recording microphones pick-up during recording sessions} and { Learn from all those honest gentlemans} = Non-Sequitur ie Sweeping generalizations followed by special pleading The generalization is the fallacy here. The pleading follows it in order to avoid offense or some such measure.
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Dear @johnk : Please re-read my post and why I posted that way:
"" or a little extra warmth but the highs are detailed and relaxed. "
again where is that warm or relaxed kind of sounds coming from live MUSIC at nearfield listen to, a horn, cymballs, drums or even a violin or a piano. It does not exist and this is not a generalization and a fallacy: just does not exist.
Things are that the recording microphones are at nearfield position.
I posted :
"" and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm, extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ). ""
That’s how at real SPL sounds/performs a good SS electronics designs. Music have all those adjectives and many more: natural brigthness or natural agressivenes or even sometimes harsh sound is how the JC-1's will performs when the recording asked for. It's not because it needs higher feedback levels.
Issue is understaND HOW LIVE music SOUNDS AND WHAT RECORDING MICRO’S PICK-UP AT REAL spl: THAT’S ss THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO STAY NEARER TO THE RECORDING TRUER TO THE RECORDINGS. tUBES CAN’T DO IT FOR SEVERAL WELL DOCUMENTED REASONS/FACTS. ( capital letter a finger error. ).
That manufacturer is totally wrong and as usual he never gives/gaves a first hand measured facts that can prove his false information. Exacvtly like today always takes/took another reference that proves nothing here, so useless to give him an answer.
You know, in the world exist honest and dishonest people. Make your own judgement because this " episode " is repeated again for the 1,000 time.
Btw, I respect your opinion and I don’t try to make any offense to any one but only post facts and that’s all.
R.
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Btw, I respect your opinion and I don’t try to make any offense to any one but only post facts and that’s all. Just before that: That manufacturer is totally wrong and as usual he never gives/gaves a
first hand measured facts that can prove his false information. Exacvtly
like today always takes/took another reference that proves nothing
here, so useless to give him an answer.
You know, in the world
exist honest and dishonest people. Make your own judgement because this "
episode " is repeated again for the 1,000 time. The contradiction here is pretty obvious, as are the motives behind it. I take it then, @rauliruegas that when given the choice of educating yourself, or being stupid, you didn't choose the former. Instead, you chose to make me wrong for the sake of making yourself seem to look better. In time you might sort out that this technique does not work. But at any time, you will find that redemption is readily available- just read the article I linked, and google the topics I mentioned, and really study them. This is engineering school stuff- if you are fluent with it, you won't appear to be stupid *or* ignorant! When you say: "" and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm,
extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a
trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ). ""
That’s
how at real SPL sounds/performs a good SS electronics designs. Music
have all those adjectives and many more: natural brigthness or natural
agressivenes or even sometimes harsh sound is how the JC-1's will
performs when the recording asked for. It's not because it needs higher
feedback levels.
Issue is understaND HOW LIVE music SOUNDS AND
WHAT RECORDING MICRO’S PICK-UP AT REAL spl: THAT’S ss THAT’S THE ONLY
WAY TO STAY NEARER TO THE RECORDING TRUER TO THE RECORDINGS. tUBES CAN’T
DO IT FOR SEVERAL WELL DOCUMENTED REASONS/FACTS.
You must certainly be aware that tubes have no problems at all reproducing the aggressive nature of a trumpet at close range (and played loudly, as that can make a big difference). In fact everything you mentioned in the above quote (which very much reads as if you are saying that only solid state amps can do) tube amps do easily. You really need to try harder than that. What you missed in my comments was that I was not advocating tubes, in the same way that I was not advocating typical solid state amps that lack sufficient feedback. They **both** have failings, so you pick your poison: either a bit of euphonic warmth or a harshness and brightness. OR: If the amp has **enough** feedback, it will simply be neutral. To do that takes a lot of feedback, and as I mentioned, putting that much feedback on most tube or solid state amps will cause them to oscillate due to the phase margins being exceeded. Now I tried to get you to google that, so you'd know what I was talking about. This is the difference between education and ... well... not. Now given that any amp will have distortion, the trick is to minimize it, and the way to do that with any amplifier is to simply allow it to drive a load that is higher impedance (and usually less weird phase angles as a result). IOW, simple advice: If you want the most out of your amplifier investment dollar, don't make your amp work hard for a living. When the amp has an easy job, it makes less distortion. Less distortion means less coloration (warmth or brightness). |
Hi Raul,
As a former trumpeter I agree this instrument is certainly capable of sounding harsh, bright and aggressive. Believes me that the trumpet can definitely sound "warm,sweet and relaxed" . Just depends on what the musician wants to express or communicate while p,aying. And this is with the instrument in my hands. Can’t be anymore near field than that.
One of my former instructors who was a professional trumpeter (And fugelhorn) could play with such full, fat and warm tone (This is how he described it BTW) simply emotional and gorgeous harmonic color. So these terms aren’t "ridiculous adjectives " as you wrote, quite the contrary.
Raul having heard the trumpet intimately (And many instruments) for years ultimately pushed me toward tubes for what was a more realistic reproduction. I respect your preference for solid state electronics. I’m just providing my own experience with very close proximity to live instruments. Tubes can impressively reproduce both the dynamic bite and the gentle sweetness instruments are capable of.
Charles |
charles1dad
on topic, what impedance are your speakers?
off topic, I love trumpets!
Wonderful and warm sounding trumpet! I'd love to hear you play live. Any recordings I could listen to? (send me a private message perhaps)
Reading Raul, I was just thinking of when I heard Hugh Masekela live, sitting close in a very small club in NYC. Fantastic, did I say Fantastic. I have many Hugh recordings, highly enjoyable, but live ...
I told him he was the best trumpet player ever. He replied, no, don't say that, looked at the ceiling, said there's a ghost of Louis Armstrong here, he was the best.
The musical performances I choose to go to (used to go to) were chosen to hear someone live. I sit around here saying to Donna, it must be awesome to hear ... live. Even then, it's a stage, it's a mic, a sound system, yet there is
Are you Korean? Just being funny, I spent several years watching Korean Dramas on Dramafever.com. Many times the parents were referred to (kid's name) ..... dad. Charles not the most common Korean name.
regards, Elliott |
When Miles wanted to be mellow he would point the trumpet down and possibly use a mute. When he wanted to let you have it he would point the trumpet right at you and fire away. It was up to the musician. It is mostly speakers that make trumpets sound harsher than normal.
Raul the JC1 has been superseded y the JC1+ which is now readily available. It is very similar but even larger and costs $16K a pair which is still dirt cheep in comparison to other amps of it's quality.
Ralph one thing the JC1 is not is harsh. It is one of the smoothest most effortless amps I have ever heard. Not that your MA2 is even better. The Sound Labs are certainly a match made in heaven with your MA2 given the extremely high impedance at low frequencies. I do believe this would give your amp more control/lower distortion at those frequencies. However I still believe in taking the deep bass away from ESLs. The diaphragms have a very limited Xmax. They get non linear easily creating distortion at higher frequencies never mind the doppler effect. The ESLs become even more effortless and higher sound pressure levels stay perfectly controlled and relaxed. Without subwoofers the ESLs will start sounding stressed at higher volumes. This is certainly the case with Acoustats. I can not see why it would be different with Sound Labs speakers. I will listen to them full range for a few days to see if this opinion holds. I do believe I listen at higher volumes than most people but I have discovered that with subwoofer I am quite satisfied 5 or so dB lower. Loudness compensation also helps a lot in this regard.
My wife is my distortion meter. She will tolerate higher volumes with the subwoofers running:-) |
Hi Elliot,
1 My speakers are Coincident Total Eclipse II and have a 14 ohm impedance (10 ohm minimum).
2 I played and studied trumpet many years ago in my youth and was not a professional trumpeter by any stretch. But this experience was impactful and permanently sealed my admiration for skilled musicians (It isn't easy😊).
3 I'm not Korean.
4 I can definitely understand your deep appreciation for Hugh Masekela. He was a master of the flugelhorn.
"Wonderful and warm sounding trumpet" , exactly!
As @ mijostyn observed, trumpets actually have a warmer tone live (No microphone Just pure horn) than speakers are capable of reproducing. Such a good point as there's a slight harshness or edge imposed you'd never hear live and up close.
Charles |
Dear @charles1dad : Agree, even D.GGuillespie can sounds a little warmer or B.Webster that’s his style but even that tenor sax at real SPL at 1-2m. sounds/performs agressive.
Yes, if we are seated in a club normally the players SPL goes according the site but this not the rule because if you listen a full orchestra as the D.Ellington live or other of that type sounds will be brigthness, sometyimes even harsh and sometimes can be a little warm ( in the DE solos. ).
You are a player and if you seat at the side of a concert piano player with a concert piano and he playing at real concert SPL that marvelous piano sound and especially the " rigth hand " you will listen it not only brigthness but several times harsh and yes depending of the score can sounds a little warmer.
Charles my point here is that we music lovers and audiophiles need it’s a must to have nerafield live MUSIC experiences to know the real kind of sounds that the recording microphones pick-up.
Many audiophiles are accustomed to tubes electronics and they just do not like : brigthness, harsh or agressive real kind of sounds that LIVE MUSIC has and in the other side is not only because of tubes but normally those audiophiles do not listen their systems at very high SPL as @mijostyn and many other audiophiles and that’s why their choose is tubes and not SS but overall ( no matters what. ) SS puts all of us nearer to the recording, tubes can’t do it because has to many limitations everywhere from the phono stage to amps.
I think that the best learning lessons we can have is to attend as more times we can to listen LIVE MUSIC ( any kind. ) seated at true nearfield position.
Btw, if I was at 1m. from your trumpet I will listen it at higher SPL that you that are the player.
I know several orchestra players and jazz band members where its ears were less sensitive for degradation through the time hearing very high SPLs than a normal audiophile. Music Directors too.
I love MUSIC and my prefered instrument is piano but in general I like every instrument and horns are no exception, Masekela that was named by Elliot is very good in his style and that kind of rythm.
Yes, a muted horn as the one from the great M.Davis can sounds sweet but that same muted horn can sounds with harsh too.
Now, MUSIC is not only jazz or classical exist other kimnd as rock and disco music and people do not likes its agressivity and harsness but that's what it's and SS gives us exactly that.
Appreciated your post.
R. |
Dear @mijostyn : Agree, Soundlabs as any other passive speakers needs a self powered subwoofers, quality differences for the better is almost day and knigth for all the room/system. On the high pass filter I oprefers at 80hz and not higher than that but is open to test it through several listening sessions till subs are integrated as a unity with the main speakers.
Btw, how can any one that the JC-1 are harsh or brigth with oput listen it mated with top speakers, makes no sense for say the least.
R. |
The diaphragms have a very limited Xmax. They get non linear easily
creating distortion at higher frequencies never mind the doppler effect.
The ESLs become even more effortless and higher sound pressure levels
stay perfectly controlled and relaxed. Without subwoofers the ESLs will
start sounding stressed at higher volumes. This is certainly the case
with Acoustats. I can not see why it would be different with Sound Labs
speakers. Roger used to make the B1 subwoofer which was an ESL panel that, if you had a pair of them, sat between the A1s creating a wall of ESL from one side of the room to the other. Several of my customers have had this sort of setup, using an electronic crossover so there was no bass excursion on the mains. I seem to recall the crossover to be about 200Hz. By getting the bass off of the mains they got more transparent. IMO there were tradeoffs- the problem being that the Sound Labs and MA-2s driving them were a pretty transparent system for which the crossover at the time was no match. Roger began to mess with the spacing on the sub, and the later versions seemed to get harder to drive on account of the spacing between the diaphragm and stator being increased (inverse square law...). I like to play my system at some pretty high levels too. If you want the entrance of the gods into Valhalla to sound right, you can't pussyfoot around with the volume; Wagner scored a serious brass section at that point and its not the sort of thing you sleep to :) Of course you understand that I spend far more time playing our own amps than I do most solid state amps, and by comparison my comments are correct. I concede there is a perspective issue afoot! |
Hi Raul,
What caused me to respond to your posts yesterday was what seem to be a rather dismissive and very broad brush assumptions.
1 "Low knowledge level audiophiles "
2 You referred to "Warm, sweet,relaxed" as ridiculous adjectives used to describe the sound of music in a listener’s audio system.
3 Your assertion that tube electronics are less capable of reproducing the true characteristics of near field music but solid state electronics are superior in this regard.
I feel you were insulting a number of members on this forum. Low knowledge level? How did you reach that conclusion? Is it because they may prefer tubes versus transistors (As is your preference)?
I wanted to point out that terms such as warm, sweet and relaxed do certainly represent useful and meaningful adjectives when describing what one can hear. Every bit as worthwhile as harsh, bright and aggressive. All these adjectives are relevant and accurate descriptors depending on context and circumstances.
I simply have a different perspective/opinion than you and wanted to express that based on my experiences. Raul I understand you re explaining and describing your near field listening impressions. But you wrote it with the implication that you have more of this type of exposure than others on this thread. Why would you make that assumption?
There are I suspect folks on this forum with similar live near field listening experiences, probably more than you realize. Nonetheless I appreciate your contributions and sharing of your thoughts on this open forum.
Charles
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I use Pure silver cable for my whole system, much cheaper , then the branded cable. As for speaker, change the capacitor on crossover to a good one, I also change, the wire to pure silver. If you are interested, can go Youtube Jolida 211. |
Ralph, I have seen pictures of that system with the subwoofer panels between the main speakers. It was destined to failure for several reasons. First is dipole radiators make lousy subwoofers. The wavelengths are just too long and holding the panels perfectly rigid is very difficult. Second is the set up was wrong. He was using point source subwoofers under line source main speakers. They do not radiate the same way. In order to create line source subwoofers your array has to end at boundaries (walls) at both ends and the subwoofers have to be closer than the wavelength of the highest frequency the subs are to reproduce. He would have had to have a sub panel right up against both side walls and one in the center. The beauty of this is that you sharply reduce unwanted reflective energy. Third is analog subwoofer crossovers just do not work well especially with steeper slopes. You really have to have a digital bass management system to handle the crossovers and time alignment. The best are very flexible and you can make changes while listening which is very important.
But, everyone noticed that the main speakers became more transparent which is major plus of using subwoofers with ESLs. When you push the volume the sound remains perfectly organized and pain free. They just get louder. We listened to an Arctic Monkey's concert last night. Everybody had big smiles with 100 dB peaks.
I cross over higher than most people as I have discovered that, at least with my system that it sounds better. I think it is easier to match things up at shorter wavelengths. But, 200 Hz is perhaps too high for dynamic subwoofers. I cross at 120 dB or so. I've never taken it up to 200 Hz. But if the set up is symmetrical It won't screw up the imaging. It might start interfering with the resolution of certain instruments like a double bass.
There is nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning:-)
Raul, I think the 80 Hz crossover is right for dynamic speakers when you are using one sub or a swarm system. 80 Hz is the highest you can go without disturbing the image. But, if you are using a symmetrical set up with all speakers in front of you it is fine to go higher. With an ESL like the Sound labs which is a "one way" speaker this makes a big difference but with a dynamic speaker were the woofer might only run up to 500 Hz the improvement in distortion won't be quite as noticeable although the headroom will improve. The point is that crossing higher probably won't get you much. |
@mijostyn +1
The room that I heard that system in most recently was built to accommodate the stereo and specifically the Sound Labs. It really was a nice setup, and could play some impressive dynamic range. He was running 2 pair of our MA-2s and until Dr West started messing with the spacing on the B1 subs, you couldn't clip the amps. It would be interesting to hear what those speakers could do with modern room correction and crossovers. The B1 sub had a very nice impedance curve if you had tube amps; it was as high as 32 ohms and I don't think it got below 16 ohms anywhere in its range.
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Interesting thread with a lot to unpack if learning is the goal. Some astute gems :-) and yes, I have much to learn...
I find it best to approach the amplifier/speaker wire / speaker as a system. It is an unfair advantage as Richard Vandersteen says when you engineer a relatively easy load and then purpose design both the amp and wires for that load. He has Tubes and SS in the M7, SS only in the M5, post Covid stop by, I assure the M7 is anything but bright. To repeat its a system. I believe JA said it was one of the best amplifiers he has measured. Of course he listened to it as a system w model 7 speakers.
I spent a career at one of the most advanced technology companies on or above the planet, many many issues and failures due to cross disciplinary ( speakers and amps in this thread ) lack of system engineering principles being adhered to....
go to all that work to build an OTL to hook it up to transformers, two of them per side... for the OTL fans ( count me in ) this is a head scratcher.... there are of course some brilliant transformer designers:
Modjeski and whoever did the Mac240.. of course enough voltage in the tube amp and you can direct drive the ESL.
on feedback, it ain’t free - introduces other distortion you may or may not like. Many threads are just one flavor of distortion against another... might as well watch cat chase tail... real movement forward will seek to banish distortion period.
Horns and horn miking and horn microphone choice are imo a black art.... assuming artistry, the tough choice is picking the right microphone.... and w horn dynamics that is a daunting task ( see again the part about distortion )
back to Elliott, who is a cool dude, your MX-110z can drive a long RCA , I would go that route, shorten up the speaker wires, then listen, solve for R ( measure L pad ) and replace w fixed value and enjoy !!!!!
you can see a variety of speakers and amps and a 30’ run of BJC rca in my vintage system picture, horns, planers, dynamic, SS, Tubes, analog, digital, tape we do it all !!!!!!!!
jim
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Ralph - the Wagner you cite, what is your reference LP for that ?
best to you in the new year ?
jim
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Dear @charles1dad : Unfortunatelly wrong all your assumptions on me and the Agoners that I can see I know it them better than you and no not many of them have several first hand experiences listening LIVE MUSIC at near field position in a Music Hall just behind the Orchestra Director listening the Fantastique or 1812 or the like, of course that tehre are several Agoners way superior on that kind of experience than me.
Or seated at 1m. from a drum set listening, at true real SPL, those Zildjan cimbals.
I never talk or post something I'm not totally sure of it.
I'm not insulting any one but facts are facts and only for your records I was a tube lover electronics for at least 10 years and heard almost any tubes from Jolida to the Audio Note ke-gon passing for Atmasphere, Allnic, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, BAT, Cary, Wavac, VTL, Marantz, Luxman, etc, etc. Finally I learned. I'm sure you will too in the near future or maybe you already learned all what any music lover/audiophile must learns. If this is the case good for you.
Anyway, appreciated but wrong. No, it's not because tubes vs SS, the overall issue is a lot more complex that only that.
R.
|
Hi Raul,
I don’t question your experiences and the subsequent choices you’ve made as a result. You have extensive exposure to many fine tube components. I’ve extensive exposure to a variety of highly regarded transistor components. For your needs/objectives you have determined that solid state is the superior option. I ultimately was more persuaded by tubes. As dictated by our respective experiences we’ve chosen different paths to follow. That’s no problem at all. I respect your input on this forum.
Charles |
tomic601 thanks for ’cool dude’, I think more like ’old dude’ many must think ’long winded’. I ordered everything for new DIY Speaker Cables COST: $136.44 incl tax & delivery
................................. CONNECTORS (spades and adapters at speaker’s back panel) spades, pure copper 2 set screws 8 pcs
https://www.wish.com/product/5f20285d021ca40450e0db12?from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=US&_force_currency_code=USD&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5f20285d021ca40450e0db12&ad_cc=US&ad_lang=EN&ad_curr=USD&ad_price=25.99&campaign_id=7203534630&gclid=CjwKCAiAirb_BRBNEiwALHlnDzHJI5sHBGgV6SU4SPObQJRDpIRlNlS-YE4jEMoNNitRfQDti9QnlhoCrSoQAvD_BwE&share=web
5 way binding post, pure copper fits 3/4" thick panel
https://www.wish.com/transaction/5fedeb5a8db692f0c1f84c07/product/5f4a22dd64ef860043939722/5f4a22dd64ef860043939723
......................................................... CABLE: I ended up ordering a cat8 s/ftp (shielded, foiled twisted pairs) When you twist them you lose length, I need 12 ft straight x 2 = 24’ x 2 spkrs = 48lf straight, a roll of 50ft would be short. Speaker cables l/r should always be the same length (time of travel aligned, hah!). I chose this cable, ordered 10 m (33ft) red; 10m (33ft) black, each leg 16lf to make 12 ft: red/black twisted. https://www.ebay.com/itm/174307181712 22 awg, 8 solid (not stranded) OFC copper S/FTP construction = 13 awg This chart shows relative gauges, physical sizes, and resistance. https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/wire-gauge-chart.htmltwo basic choices cat gauges: largest 22 awg; smallest 26 awg 22 awg x 8 = 13 awg (+152% area above 26 26 awg x 8 = 17 awg (+152% resistance above 22 22 awg solid = less flexible is not an issue for me. .......................................... CONDUCTIVITY CHART https://www.bluesea.com/resources/108/Electrical_Conductivity_of_Materialssilver is only a little more conductive than copper gold and aluminum are only a little less conductive than copper brass is a lot less conductive than copper COPPER TYPES (hard to verify true facts) often text says solid but diagram shows stranded; text says 23 awg, chart shows 26 awg, and seller’s answers are often not clear. https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/metals-metal-products/types-of-copper-wire/’Pure Copper’, (99.9% pure) often in text, with or without OFC is not in the above article, it is in this article, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copperC11000 - also known as Electrolytic-Tough-Pitch (ETP). This is the most common copper. It is universal for electrical applications. ETP has a minimum conductivity rating of 100% IACS and is required to be 99.9% pure. It has 0.02% to 0.04% oxygen content (typical). ................................... L PADS will be disconnected, new + wire direct from crossover for both horns (one as a test first) ............................ WOOFERS, remove, check cones Picking these suckers up onto a low bench for the work is a job for two masked men. Recent MRI: I now have 4 herniated discs, one tear, pinched nerve. |
Dear @mijostyn : I use two Velodyne's and are along the main speakers but not firing to the seat position, here how are working:
"" VELODYNE HGS-15:
These two self powered subwoofers are in front of the main speakers and in side firing position.
It crossover at 78Hz. I do some tweaks in the circuit for a better quality sound reproduction and I changed the internal wiring that connects the woofer to the internal amplifier ( 50-60cm ), the original is a very bad zip cord one that I changed with Kimber Kable KCAG that I soldered directly to the woofers and directly to the amplifiers: with no connectors in between.
The power cord comes from Analysis Plus and is soldered directly to the inside subwoofer switch on/off with out no single connector kind ( at both sides/ends of the power cord ) and the IC cable is the Silver Oval by Analysis Plus too.
I change too the internal electrical power wires that goes from the subwoofer switch on/off to the Subs amplifier, I'm using KCAG by Kimber Kable.
Both subwoofers are " seated " over three Van Slike footers/isolators along with inverted Tip Toes ( position ) over these Van Slike isolators, so the subs are around 15-20cm. from the floor. Both subs have a dead-weight ( on top ) of 40kgs.
NOTE: I'm not using the subwoofer internal crossover or an external electronic crossover to send the signal to the ADS L 2030.
The crossover function ( high-pass. ) happens inside the two modified Levinson 20.6 mono-blocks at its input through a WIMA FKP1 cap and a single nude 0.001% Vishay 2575 resistor.
In this way the signal from the preamp goes normally ( pure and clean ) to the 20.6s and to the loudspeaker with out any additional electronic stage or cables/connectors and the signal was taken directly from the Essential 3160 by the Velodynes. ""
That's came from my virtual system details.
Now, there are several advantages/benefits to the room/system quality performance levels when we use two good self powered subwoofers ( for stereo music and at one seat position that is where normally we all listen the system 2 subs are way enough if are good designs and are well integrated to the main speakers. ) but perhaps the more critical an important is that, it does not matters if planar or dynamic speakers as mine, the IMD goes way lower exactly where that kind of distortion makes more harm that's a woofer or planar element handling at the same time frequencies as low as 20hz and intothe 200hz-400hz and even higher frequencie range.
This creates/develops really high IMD including the harmonics of the reproduced signal and this kind of distortions modulates for the bad all the quality sound that goes out side our beloved speakers and not only that but due to that high IMD the THD goes higher too.
When the main speakers are liberated from the bass excursions of frequencies below 80-100hz we can hear it no matters what because the quality improvement is really huge.
You can be sure that in the next example always things will goes as I stated:
if you own ( example only. ) a pair of Wilson Maxx3 that you are handling it through the top CH or Dan'gostino amplifiers those speakers will performs really good but if if you adds a pair of self powered subs crossed at around 80hz the differences for the better will be higher that any MAXX3 owner can imagine it.
This is the other critical and important advantages subs gaves us it does not matters if our passive speakers are full range and this advantage other that the one explained is that now those bass frequencies that are the foundation of MUSIC will be handled by a dedicated speaker designed in specific to mate/fullfil those bass frequencies needs along a dedicated amplifier too that makes the same.
Those MAXX3 never can performs better with out those subs that with them integrated to.
And believe me that difference is almost nigth and day.
R. |
OFC " only a one percent higher conductivity " (from this wiki OFC article) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper "Use in home audio The high-end speaker wire industry markets oxygen-free copper as having enhanced conductivity or other electrical properties that are supposedly advantageous to audio signal transmission. In fact, conductivity specifications for common C11000 (ETP) and higher-cost C10200 Oxygen-Free (OF) coppers are identical;[12] and even the much more expensive C10100 has only a one percent higher conductivity—insignificant in audio applications.[12] OFC is nevertheless sold for both audio and video signals in audio playback systems and home cinema.[12] "
from the Copper Article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_conductor
"
The electrical conductivity of 6-nines copper and 4-nines copper (99.99% pure) is nearly the same at ambient temperature, although the higher-purity copper has a higher conductivity at cryogenic temperatures. Therefore, for non-cryogenic temperatures, 4-nines copper will probably remain the dominant material for most commercial wire applications.[3]" .................................... further 'covid reading' to follow |
charles1dad I just looked up your speakers. http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/total_eclipse.htmthe diagram of the enclosure's internal bracing is beyond impressive. The 94 sensitivity is remarkable. my good friend has his custom designed speakers, that enclosure, that tweet/midrange arrangement, no woofers, no port. His mid is no doubt selected for more bass than yours. His sound fantastic,
exceptional clarity, precise imaging, (only if centered) but he is always on the edge of wanting a sub, especially after listening to the same content here with my 15" woofers. Not only would I love to hear your speakers, I would love to listen to his, then get some masked brutes to put yours in the same place, hear the difference. With the enthusiasm of youth, to get 'more' from the 15" woofers (hah), I increased my enclosure volume from their original, AND added a rear port. Enclosure and tuned port co-designed with my AV Consultant (I designed Corporate Headquarters Boardrooms/Conference Centers/Video Conference rooms for 46 years) and Electrovoice Engineering department (they still existed in NYC then, extremely helpful) Great fun in prior location, but here, too much, not needed, closed the port. Because they are so space sensitive, and hearing Definitive Technology in showrooms when they were new in great, good, bad spaces, I advise avoiding ports and/or side firing, but in the right space I have heard some excellent results. If you move, new space??? I'm guessing you have a space that cooperates with them. |
Elliott, it is excellent that you are making your own cables. You should check out Kimber Kable. You can buy their speaker cable in rolls and terminate it yourself. I use 12TC which IMHO is the absolute best speaker cable you can buy. Also check out Canare. Great company. All my digital cables and interconnects are made with their products.
Raul, I agree whole heartedly. I ran capacitors on amplifier inputs for decades. The Dalquist LP1 did that for you. You might want to try a digital bass management system such as used in the DEQX Premate. You get the advantage of time alignment which gives you much more flexibility in subwoofer placement. The best position is always on the floor against a wall or in a corner. However, this placement may not match the main speakers in time unless you can delay them to match. As an example check out my system page. Those 2001 monoliths are about to be replaced by black Sound Labs 845s. I am also working on new subwoofers.
Ralph, I am about to find out :-) I already know the results will be thunderous. As for a quality goes, if they are as good as the Acoustats I will be happy. If they are better then....I guess I'll jump for joy? |
Hi Elliot,
I’ve been extremely happy with these speakers for over 11 years. 14 ohm impedance and 94 db sensitivity. Designed to be very compatible with SET and OTL amplifiers in addition to conventional higher power amplifiers.
I originally drove them with push pull 100 watt (60 watts in triode mode) KT 88/6550 mono blocks and this was a really good pairing. When I tried an 8 watt 300b SET with the speakers, that was it. I immediately heard superb tone (A step up from very good tone) timbre and a more natural or organic sound quality. The presentation is impressively realistic , tactile with a high degree of emotional engagement. This SET and speaker combination pulled me deeper into the musical performance.
Charles |
Ralph, I am about to find out :-) I already know the results will be
thunderous. As for a quality goes, if they are as good as the Acoustats I
will be happy. If they are better then....I guess I'll jump for joy? @mijostyn, for the investment you are making I hope that is the case. In my experience with my Acoustats the Sound Labs didn't justify the investment. |
@rauliruegas, thanks for that information on your crossover. A very elegant solution.
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Elliott - That original A88T Steve brought into the US w/the 16ohm output transformers is a peach. I have no doubt about the sound you’re getting. Very cool speakers!
As you’ve heard, the sound off the amps lower impedance taps will be less spacious and more mechanical with your setup - no good.
Have Steve show you the bias process as it’s very easy; ~40mVDC off the Blue or Orange wire for each power tube. Even the adjustment pot is insulated. The amplifier will easily rest on its side making the task simple. With any bias procedure there are caveats which I’m sure he can explain. |
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