16 ohm speakers: any amp sounds better with more resolution. speaker cables less critical.

boothroyd

thanks for the link.

I bought another spare 15W yesterday reconed by Audio Classics, and seller said he had a full 15W rebuild kit for $25. if I wanted it. I'll fix my dried out one and have a pair of spares!!!

http://www.speakerworkstulsa.com
Dave is the guy to ask

I removed the L-Pads. 

I inspected the Woofers: Electrovoice 15W’s, 16 ohm from 1958. They have been re-coned twice so far, once a pro, 2nd time I did it!

We have forced hot/cool air system. I suspected the left side woofer (near the heating vent) would be dried out, and it was. No holes, but paper was brittle. Other side surprisingly looked/felt an hour old. I put my re-coned spare in the left.

I covered the heating vent temporarily, that will solve both heat and dust, I will buy a new register that opens/closes well, this one is from 1951, seals shot, hinge nasty. I'll have to see if it stays warm enough, and more importantly for me, cool enough in the summer. Of course opening it for cool air won't dry out the paper.

now looking for a rebuild kit for Electro-voice 15W 16 ohm.

Anyone know a source?

thanks, Elliott

Dear friends: in other thread with main subject: all tube phono stage and audiophile named Wavestreams unit that by coincidence years ago ( along other audio friends. ) when I was traveling in California ( La Joya. ) I had the opportunity to listen it in a very good audio system at the home of the gentleman that hosted me and not only listened but we had a direct comparisons against two top SS phonolinepreamps ( one of them Dartzeel. ).

Looking to google I found out a lot information on WSK and the designer and found out an interview with him where almost 70% of that inteview was centered to feedback what was for me an unexpected point and due that here the feedback subject was touched maybe for some of you could be interesting to read that interview:

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue1/InterviewScottFrankland.htm


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

So, suggested integrated solid state options for a 16ohm speaker would be...

Wiz away chakster ;-)

I'm currently comparing my old Zu Audio Druid (16 Ohm, 101dB, about "12 inch driver) to much bigger Tannoy (8 Ohm, 98 - 100 dB, "15 inch driver) and I prefer Zu ! 

Free trial in the USA for all Zu Audio products.     

Interesting speakers. I'd like to hear them. The wizzer cones make me a little nervous.

Nearly ALL brand new Zu Audio speakers are 12 - 16 Ohm !
Wonderful high efficient speakers, my favorite is Druid. 
Made in Utah, USA

speakermaster, There issome truth to your claim that 16-ohm speakers were more often the norm in the early days of hi-fi audio than they are now.  And maybe the rationale did have something to do with the high-ish output impedance of the then prevalent tube amplifiers.  However, I look at it the other way around: The current and rather longstanding trend toward 4-ohm speakers is the product of speaker designers insisting upon multi-way, multi-driver speakers, which inevitably requires complex crossover networks that typically will present a net low impedance load, because one is paralleling several different drivers that individually are likely to be high-ish in impedance, and because the networks per se tend to reduce net impedance.  In other words, "speaker wars" (3 or many more than 3 cheap drivers in a box so one can claim a wide bandwidth of response) led to 4-ohm speakers.  I admit that I hate the sound of such concoctions and wouldn't have any of them in my house.

Ralph, I am not sure what you are saying, because the terms "multimeter" and "DVM" are so often conflated with one another. VTVM is a clear acronym, because you are talking about a vacuum tube voltmeter. But let's take my Fluke 87 meter.

If it has a digital display its a DVM and should have a similarly high impedance like a VTVM does. A multimeter is an older analog device with an analog meter. Its impedance is much lower and so its voltage measurements in sensitive circuits will be lower than actual (Ohm's Law after all...). I agree that 'multimeter' and 'DVM' are often conflated.

A 16 ohm speaker was designed for high efficiency and damping when the amps did not have high damping factors because of high output impedance so they made the speakers that way to control the sound themselves and not rely on an amp to do it for them. the main benefit of that is that the speakers respond very quickly to the input from an amplifier in the micro dynamic sense because of this, they have a tendency to make the music come to life and breathe the air in the room turning your room into the studio where the recording was made. the key is to find the best recordings to play on them and when you do you will know it because the sensitivity of the mic that was used will match the sensitivity on playback and you will hear what you have been missing.

I made a nice long wooden screwdriver, but Steve's doing it the first time, it's an excuse to meet him.

I will bring my toy multimeter for him to throw in the trash or teach me how to use it for bias.

Ralph, I am not sure what you are saying, because the terms "multimeter" and "DVM" are so often conflated with one another.  VTVM is a clear acronym, because you are talking about a vacuum tube voltmeter.  But let's take my Fluke 87 meter.  It is a "multimeter" in the sense it can read DC and AC voltage, capacitance, DC and AC current, and it includes a diode checker.  But it is also a DVM in the sense it is digital and solid state.  On voltage settings, it offers 20Megohm resistance across the leads.  So, what is a "multimeter" and how do you distinguish it from a DVM?  Or, why isn't my Fluke a multimeter?  Folks like Elliot might benefit from this clarification even more than I. For sure, any respectable voltmeter can measure the -10V to -50V range of the grid bias voltage that is typically seen for most tube amplifier output tubes.

I messed about with them for quite a while. It is again clear to me that these speakers were designed with the control of mid to woofer and tweeter to mid in mind.

@eliottnewcombjr A little trick you can do is mark the correct position with a bit of tape. Then about once a month or so work the Lpads back and forth to clear corrosion, and reset them to the original level you marked.


BTW I'd be careful about using an analog mulitmeter when setting the bias on a newer amplifier (a vintage amp's bias procedure might expect that you are using a multimeter). A multimeter has a lower resistance than a DVM or VTVM (Vacuum Tube Volt Meter) and that can affect your reading a bit, how much depends on how high the voltage is (the higher the voltage, the more accurate they become) and the impedance of the circuit. Multimeters a nice to look at in a post-industrial world so to speak, but DVMs are actually easier to use and more accurate unless you get a junky one. If you want to use vintage stuff to do this task, get a VTVM and have it serviced out and calibrated.

0.4V = 400mV, not 40mV
And 0.4V doesn’t make sense as a bias voltage for an amplifier output tube. It’s way too little. Also grid bias should read out as a negative voltage with respect to ground or with respect to cathode voltage.

L Pads are Staying!

Full on mid and full on tweet ((similar to removing them) was not good!

I messed about with them for quite a while. It is again clear to me that these speakers were designed with the control of mid to woofer and tweeter to mid in mind.

The center position is their designed default, then carefully adjust. Then, as I have said, getting L and R matched is not easy, but I have my methods and experience with them in different spaces/locations for 43 years, especially using McIntosh Mode control to move stereo/mono/l/r this way and that.

Next: Cassandra Wilson; Annie Lennox; Friday Night in San Fran 3 guitarists; Andreas Vollenweider; War of the Worlds. Rare Earth, Mickey Hart, Oscar Peterson.

The advantages are clear, they have sounded fabulous all these years, using the controls in the listening space is an asset, and as I age, as my/our high frequency hearing naturally diminishes, I will be able to boost the tweeter year by year.

Elliott,
.4 should equal 40 millivolts yes. That’s where I would set it. Spoke w/Steve today & he’ll be glad to assist you. And yes, the 8 ohm “shop” load should be fine 👍

Ralph - the Wagner you cite, what is your reference LP for that ?
best to you in the new year ?

London/Decca Solti conducting the London Philharmonic. My copy is a London 'Blue Back'.

@clio09 , Hi clio, I wanted better dispersion so that everyone seated on the sofa (watching movies) would have the same frequency balance. I am sure the Sound Labs will suit that purpose. ESLs are very simple devices. I suspect if there is going to be any change in sound quality it will be in the design of the interface which in the case of the Sound Labs has been upgraded on several occasions. Like any ESL they need the right amp to sing and I know I have a pair that suit wonderfully. We shall see.

boothroyd

thanks

I was going to hook up my shop speakers, they are small 8 ohm, does it matter? is any load good enough?

or, I avoid carrying the 55lb beast, just disconnect inputs, flip it on it's back, have at it.

I've seen inside, took the cover off the hour I received it. Very impressive, and very spacious, easy to reach the contact points and adjusters.

plangco here posted:

1. set his multi to 20V (as a preliminary setting, just to be in that range?; says spec is .4, he uses .35 to get longer tube life and slightly warmer sound.

.4 what? how is .4 equal to 40 millivolts?

is he saying start at 20, then increase to 20.4 or 20.35?

I need brain surgery as previously discussed!

Elliott - The multimeter will be set to Volts DC.

Things are really well laid out internally and easy to see with the bottom cover removed. The speakers should be connected (fairly certain 16 ohm taps are fine) and unit powered up while resting on its side which is quite easily supported by the structure.

The multimeter’s ground lead is attached to the (-) negative speaker post of either channel to check the 2 respective output tubes (one of which has an Orange wire and the other with a Blue wire) associated with that channel. The reason I mention the Orange & Blue wire associated with each power tube socket is because that is where the multimeter’s positive lead will be attached for checking bias. Adjacent to each pair of output tubes is a small bias board with an evident blue plastic insulated bias pot for each power tube. As I recall, Steve said ~ 40millivolts is the optimal adjustment.

Final adjustments are done once the unit has been powered up for at least 30 minutes for things to stabilize.

The more we know and understand our equipment, the more we enjoy it!

boothroyd

Yes, I will be watching Steve, then do it myself after that.

I dug out my Multimeter, took apart, cleaned it up with contact cleaner  .. fresh batteries, and realized, I have no idea how to use it.

Tandy, Micronta, 1990, I found the manual in my fat 'instructions' folder. You know I like Vintage stuff.

What holes do I plug the cables in? What big center wheel setting? What adjust little pot to? I'm bringing it with me to Steve's.

Wish (where I found my pure OFC connectors) has

huge 92% discount on some 3 meter high spec speaker cables

https://www.wish.com/feed/tag_53dc186421a86318bdc87f20/product/5f8fe980bc9e0c03bab10189?utm_campaign...

Elliott - That original A88T Steve brought into the US w/the 16ohm output transformers is a peach. I have no doubt about the sound you’re getting. Very cool speakers!

As you’ve heard, the sound off the amps lower impedance taps will be less spacious and more mechanical with your setup - no good.

Have Steve show you the bias process as it’s very easy; ~40mVDC off the Blue or Orange wire for each power tube. Even the adjustment pot is insulated. The amplifier will easily rest on its side making the task simple. With any bias procedure there are caveats which I’m sure he can explain.

@rauliruegas, thanks for that information on your crossover. A very elegant solution.

Ralph, I am about to find out :-) I already know the results will be thunderous. As for a quality goes, if they are as good as the Acoustats I will be happy. If they are better then....I guess I'll jump for joy?

@mijostyn, for the investment you are making I hope that is the case. In my experience with my Acoustats the Sound Labs didn't justify the investment.

Hi Elliot,
I’ve been extremely happy with these speakers for over 11 years. 14 ohm impedance and 94 db sensitivity. Designed to be very compatible with SET and OTL amplifiers in addition to conventional higher power amplifiers.

I originally drove them with push pull 100 watt (60 watts in triode mode) KT 88/6550 mono blocks and this was a really good pairing. When I tried an 8 watt 300b SET with the speakers, that was it. I immediately heard superb tone (A step up from very good tone) timbre and a more natural or organic sound quality. The presentation is impressively realistic , tactile with a high degree of emotional engagement. This SET and speaker combination pulled me deeper into the musical performance. 
Charles

Elliott, it is excellent that you are making your own cables. You should check out Kimber Kable. You can buy their speaker cable in rolls and terminate it yourself. I use 12TC which IMHO is the absolute best speaker cable you can buy. Also check out Canare. Great company. All my digital cables and interconnects are made with their products.

Raul, I agree whole heartedly. I ran capacitors on amplifier inputs for decades. The Dalquist LP1 did that for you. You might want to try a digital bass management system such as used in the DEQX Premate. You get the advantage of time alignment which gives you much more flexibility in subwoofer placement. The best position is always on the floor against a wall or in a corner. However, this placement may not match the main speakers in time unless you can delay them to match. As an example check out my system page. Those 2001 monoliths are about to be replaced by black Sound Labs 845s. I am also working on new subwoofers.

Ralph, I am about to find out :-) I already know the results will be thunderous. As for a quality goes, if they are as good as the Acoustats I will be happy. If they are better then....I guess I'll jump for joy? 

charles1dad

I just looked up your speakers.

http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/total_eclipse.htm

the diagram of the enclosure's internal bracing is beyond impressive. The 94 sensitivity is remarkable.

my good friend has his custom designed speakers, that enclosure, that tweet/midrange arrangement, no woofers, no port. His mid is no doubt selected for more bass than yours. 

His sound fantastic, exceptional clarity, precise imaging, (only if centered) but he is always on the edge of wanting a sub, especially after listening to the same content here with my 15" woofers.

Not only would I love to hear your speakers, I would love to listen to his, then get some masked brutes to put yours in the same place, hear the difference.

With the enthusiasm of youth, to get 'more' from the 15" woofers (hah), I increased my enclosure volume from their original, AND added a rear port. Enclosure and tuned port co-designed with my AV Consultant (I designed Corporate Headquarters Boardrooms/Conference Centers/Video Conference rooms for 46 years) and Electrovoice Engineering department (they still existed in NYC then, extremely helpful)

Great fun in prior location, but here, too much, not needed, closed the port.

Because they are so space sensitive, and hearing Definitive Technology in showrooms when they were new in great, good, bad spaces, I advise avoiding ports and/or side firing, but in the right space I have heard some excellent results. If you move, new space???

I'm guessing you have a space that cooperates with them.

OFC " only a one percent higher conductivity "

(from this wiki OFC article)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper

"Use in home audio

The high-end speaker wire industry markets oxygen-free copper as having enhanced conductivity or other electrical properties that are supposedly advantageous to audio signal transmission.

In fact, conductivity specifications for common C11000 (ETP) and higher-cost C10200 Oxygen-Free (OF) coppers are identical;[12] and

even the much more expensive C10100 has only a one percent higher conductivity—insignificant in audio applications.[12]

OFC is nevertheless sold for both audio and video signals in audio playback systems and home cinema.[12] "

from the Copper Article

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_conductor

" The electrical conductivity of 6-nines copper and 4-nines copper (99.99% pure) is nearly the same at ambient temperature, although the higher-purity copper has a higher conductivity at cryogenic temperatures. Therefore, for non-cryogenic temperatures, 4-nines copper will probably remain the dominant material for most commercial wire applications.[3]"

....................................

further 'covid reading' to follow

Dear @mijostyn : I use two Velodyne's and are along the main speakers  but not firing to the seat position, here how are working:

"" VELODYNE HGS-15:

These two self powered subwoofers are in front of the main speakers and in side firing position.

It crossover at 78Hz. I do some tweaks in the circuit for a better quality sound reproduction and I changed the internal wiring that connects the woofer to the internal amplifier ( 50-60cm ), the original is a very bad zip cord one that I changed with Kimber Kable KCAG that I soldered directly to the woofers and directly to the amplifiers: with no connectors in between.

The power cord comes from Analysis Plus and is soldered directly to the inside subwoofer switch on/off with out no single connector kind ( at both sides/ends of the power cord ) and the IC cable is the Silver Oval by Analysis Plus too.

I change too the internal electrical power wires that goes from the subwoofer switch on/off to the Subs amplifier, I'm using KCAG by Kimber Kable.

Both subwoofers are " seated " over three Van Slike footers/isolators along with inverted Tip Toes ( position ) over these Van Slike isolators, so the subs are around 15-20cm. from the floor. Both subs have a dead-weight ( on top ) of 40kgs.

NOTE: I'm not using the subwoofer internal crossover or an external electronic crossover to send the signal to the ADS L 2030.

The crossover function ( high-pass. ) happens inside the two modified Levinson 20.6 mono-blocks at its input through a WIMA FKP1 cap and a single nude 0.001% Vishay 2575 resistor.

In this way the signal from the preamp goes normally ( pure and clean ) to the 20.6s and to the loudspeaker with out any additional electronic stage or cables/connectors and the signal was taken directly from the Essential 3160 by the Velodynes. ""

That's came from my virtual system details.

Now, there are several advantages/benefits to the room/system quality performance levels when we use two good self powered subwoofers ( for stereo music and at one seat position that is where normally we all listen the system 2 subs are way enough if are good designs and are well integrated to the main speakers. ) but perhaps the more critical an important is that, it does not matters if planar or dynamic speakers as mine, the IMD goes way lower exactly where that kind of distortion makes more harm that's a woofer or planar element handling at the same time frequencies as low as 20hz and intothe 200hz-400hz and even higher frequencie range.
 This creates/develops really high IMD including the harmonics of the reproduced signal and this kind of distortions modulates for the bad all the quality sound that goes out side our beloved speakers and not only that but due to that high IMD the THD goes higher too.

When the main speakers are liberated from the bass excursions of frequencies below 80-100hz  we can hear it no matters what because the quality improvement is really huge.

You can be sure that in the next example always things will goes as I stated:

if you own ( example only. ) a pair of Wilson Maxx3  that you are handling it through the top CH or Dan'gostino amplifiers those speakers will performs really good but if if you adds a pair of self powered subs crossed at around 80hz the differences for the better will be higher that any MAXX3 owner can imagine it.

This is the other critical and important advantages subs gaves us it does not matters if our passive speakers are full range and this advantage other that the one explained is that now those bass frequencies that are the foundation of MUSIC will be handled by a dedicated speaker designed in specific to mate/fullfil those bass frequencies needs along a dedicated amplifier too that makes the same.

Those MAXX3 never can performs better with out those subs that with them integrated to.

And believe me that difference is almost nigth and day.

R.

tomic601

thanks for ’cool dude’, I think more like ’old dude’ many must think ’long winded’.

I ordered everything for new DIY Speaker Cables

COST: $136.44 incl tax & delivery
.................................

CONNECTORS (spades and adapters at speaker’s back panel)

spades, pure copper 2 set screws 8 pcs

https://www.wish.com/product/5f20285d021ca40450e0db12?from_ad=goog_shopping&_display_country_code=US&_force_currency_code=USD&pid=googleadwords_int&c=%7BcampaignId%7D&ad_cid=5f20285d021ca40450e0db12&ad_cc=US&ad_lang=EN&ad_curr=USD&ad_price=25.99&campaign_id=7203534630&gclid=CjwKCAiAirb_BRBNEiwALHlnDzHJI5sHBGgV6SU4SPObQJRDpIRlNlS-YE4jEMoNNitRfQDti9QnlhoCrSoQAvD_BwE&share=web

5 way binding post, pure copper fits 3/4" thick panel

https://www.wish.com/transaction/5fedeb5a8db692f0c1f84c07/product/5f4a22dd64ef860043939722/5f4a22dd64ef860043939723

.........................................................

CABLE:

I ended up ordering a cat8 s/ftp (shielded, foiled twisted pairs)

When you twist them you lose length, I need 12 ft straight x 2 = 24’ x 2 spkrs = 48lf straight, a roll of 50ft would be short.

Speaker cables l/r should always be the same length (time of travel aligned, hah!).

I chose this cable, ordered 10 m (33ft) red; 10m (33ft) black, each leg 16lf to make 12 ft: red/black twisted.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174307181712

22 awg, 8 solid (not stranded) OFC copper S/FTP construction = 13 awg

This chart shows relative gauges, physical sizes, and resistance.

https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/wire-gauge-chart.html

two basic choices cat gauges: largest 22 awg; smallest 26 awg

22 awg x 8 = 13 awg (+152% area above 26

26 awg x 8 = 17 awg (+152% resistance above 22

22 awg solid = less flexible is not an issue for me.


..........................................

CONDUCTIVITY CHART

https://www.bluesea.com/resources/108/Electrical_Conductivity_of_Materials

silver is only a little more conductive than copper

gold and aluminum are only a little less conductive than copper

brass is a lot less conductive than copper

COPPER TYPES (hard to verify true facts)

often text says solid but diagram shows stranded; text says 23 awg, chart shows 26 awg, and seller’s answers are often not clear.

https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/metals-metal-products/types-of-copper-wire/

’Pure Copper’, (99.9% pure) often in text, with or without OFC

is not in the above article, it is in this article,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper

C11000 - also known as Electrolytic-Tough-Pitch (ETP). This is the most common copper. It is universal for electrical applications. ETP has a minimum conductivity rating of 100% IACS and is required to be 99.9% pure. It has 0.02% to 0.04% oxygen content (typical).

...................................

L PADS

will be disconnected, new + wire direct from crossover for both horns
(one as a test first)

............................

WOOFERS, remove, check cones

Picking these suckers up onto a low bench for the work is a job for two masked men. Recent MRI: I now have 4 herniated discs, one tear, pinched nerve.

Hi Raul,
I don’t question your experiences and the subsequent choices you’ve made as a result. You have extensive exposure to many fine tube components. I’ve extensive exposure to a variety of highly regarded transistor components. For your needs/objectives you have determined that solid state is the superior option. I ultimately was more persuaded by tubes. As dictated by our respective experiences we’ve chosen different paths to follow. That’s no problem at all. I respect your input on this forum.
Charles

Dear @charles1dad  : Unfortunatelly wrong all your assumptions on me and the Agoners that I  can see I know it them better than you and no not many of them have several first hand experiences listening LIVE MUSIC at near field position in a Music Hall just behind the Orchestra Director listening the Fantastique or 1812 or the like, of course that tehre are several Agoners way superior on that kind of experience than me.
Or seated at 1m. from a drum set listening, at true real SPL, those Zildjan cimbals. 

I never talk or post something I'm not totally sure of it.

I'm not insulting any one but facts are facts and only for your records I was a tube lover electronics for at least 10 years and heard almost any tubes from Jolida to the Audio Note ke-gon passing for Atmasphere, Allnic, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson,  BAT, Cary, Wavac, VTL, Marantz, Luxman, etc, etc. Finally I learned. I'm sure you will too in the near future or maybe you already learned all what any music lover/audiophile must learns. If this is the case good for you.

Anyway, appreciated but wrong. No, it's not because tubes vs SS, the overall issue is a lot more complex that only that.


R.

Ralph - the Wagner you cite, what is your reference LP for that ?
best to you in the new year ?

jim

Interesting thread with a lot to unpack if learning is the goal. Some astute gems :-) and yes, I have much to learn...

I find it best to approach the amplifier/speaker wire / speaker as a system. It is an unfair advantage as Richard Vandersteen says when you engineer a relatively easy load and then purpose design both the amp and wires for that load.  He has Tubes and SS in the M7, SS only in the M5, post Covid stop by, I assure the M7 is anything but bright. To repeat its a system. I believe JA said it was one of the best amplifiers he has measured. Of course he listened to it as a system w model 7 speakers.


 I spent a career at one of the most advanced technology companies on or above the planet, many many issues and failures due to cross disciplinary ( speakers and amps in this thread ) lack of system engineering principles being adhered to....

go to all that work to build an OTL to hook it up to transformers, two of them per side... for the OTL fans ( count me in ) this is a head scratcher.... there are of course some brilliant transformer designers:

Modjeski and whoever did the Mac240.. of course enough voltage in the tube amp and you can direct drive the ESL.

on feedback, it ain’t free - introduces other distortion you may or may not like. Many threads are just one flavor of distortion against another... might as well watch cat chase tail... real movement forward will seek to banish distortion period. 
Horns and horn miking and horn microphone choice are imo a black art.... assuming artistry, the tough choice is picking the right microphone.... and w horn dynamics that is a daunting task ( see again the part about distortion )

back to Elliott, who is a cool dude, your MX-110z can drive a long RCA , I would go that route, shorten up the speaker wires, then listen, solve for R ( measure L pad ) and replace w fixed value and enjoy !!!!!

you can see a variety of speakers and amps and a 30’ run of BJC rca in my vintage system picture, horns, planers, dynamic, SS, Tubes, analog, digital, tape we do it all !!!!!!!!

jim

@mijostyn +1
The room that I heard that system in most recently was built to accommodate the stereo and specifically the Sound Labs. It really was a nice setup, and could play some impressive dynamic range. He was running 2 pair of our MA-2s and until Dr West started messing with the spacing on the B1 subs, you couldn't clip the amps. It would be interesting to hear what those speakers could do with modern room correction and crossovers. The B1 sub had a very nice impedance curve if you had tube amps; it was as high as 32 ohms and I don't think it got below 16 ohms anywhere in its range.

Ralph, I have seen pictures of that system with the subwoofer panels between the main speakers. It was destined to failure for several reasons. First is dipole radiators make lousy subwoofers. The wavelengths are just too long and holding the panels perfectly rigid is very difficult. Second is the set up was wrong. He was using point source subwoofers under line source main speakers. They do not radiate the same way. In order to create line source subwoofers your array has to end at boundaries (walls) at both ends and the subwoofers have to be closer than the wavelength of the highest frequency the subs are to reproduce. He would have had to have a sub panel right up against both side walls and one in the center. The beauty of this is that you sharply reduce unwanted reflective energy. Third is analog subwoofer crossovers just do not work well especially with steeper slopes. You really have to have a digital bass management system to handle the crossovers and time alignment. The best are very flexible and you can make changes while listening which is very important. 
But, everyone noticed that the main speakers became more transparent which is major plus of using subwoofers with ESLs. When you push the volume the sound remains perfectly organized and pain free. They just get louder.  We listened to an Arctic Monkey's concert last night. Everybody had big smiles with 100 dB peaks. 
I cross over higher than most people as I have discovered that, at least with my system that it sounds better. I think it is easier to match things up at shorter wavelengths. But, 200 Hz is perhaps too high for dynamic subwoofers. I cross at 120 dB or so. I've never taken it up to 200 Hz. But if the set up is symmetrical It won't screw up the imaging. It might start interfering with the resolution of certain instruments like a double bass.
There is nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning:-)

Raul, I think the 80 Hz crossover is right for dynamic speakers when you are using one sub or a swarm system. 80 Hz is the highest you can go without disturbing the image. But, if you are using a symmetrical set up with all speakers in front of you it is fine to go higher. With an ESL like the Sound labs which is a "one way" speaker this makes a big difference but with a dynamic speaker were the woofer might only run up to 500 Hz the improvement in distortion won't be quite as noticeable although the headroom will improve. The point is that crossing higher probably won't get you much. 

I use Pure silver cable for my whole system, much cheaper , then the branded cable. As for speaker, change the capacitor on crossover to a good  one, I also change, the wire to pure silver. If you are interested, can go Youtube     Jolida 211.

Hi Raul,
What caused me to respond  to your posts yesterday was what seem to be a rather dismissive and very broad brush assumptions.
1 "Low knowledge level audiophiles "
2 You referred to "Warm, sweet,relaxed" as ridiculous adjectives used to describe the sound of music in a listener’s audio system.
3 Your assertion that tube electronics are less capable of reproducing the true characteristics of near field music but solid state electronics are superior in this regard.

I feel you were insulting a number of members on this forum. Low knowledge level? How did you reach that conclusion? Is it because they may prefer tubes versus transistors (As is your preference)?

I wanted to point out that terms such as warm, sweet and relaxed do certainly represent useful and meaningful adjectives when describing what one can hear. Every bit as worthwhile as harsh, bright and aggressive. All these adjectives are relevant and accurate descriptors depending on context and circumstances.

I simply have a different perspective/opinion than you and wanted to express that based on my experiences. Raul I understand you re explaining and describing your near field listening impressions. But you wrote it with the implication that you have more of this type of exposure than others on this thread. Why would you make that assumption?
There are I suspect folks on this forum with similar live near field listening experiences, probably more than you realize. Nonetheless I appreciate your contributions and sharing of your thoughts on this open forum.
Charles

The diaphragms have a very limited Xmax. They get non linear easily creating distortion at higher frequencies never mind the doppler effect. The ESLs become even more effortless and higher sound pressure levels stay perfectly controlled and relaxed. Without subwoofers the ESLs will start sounding stressed at higher volumes. This is certainly the case with Acoustats. I can not see why it would be different with Sound Labs speakers.

Roger used to make the B1 subwoofer which was an ESL panel that, if you had a pair of them, sat between the A1s creating a wall of ESL from one side of the room to the other. Several of my customers have had this sort of setup, using an electronic crossover so there was no bass excursion on the mains. I seem to recall the crossover to be about 200Hz. By getting the bass off of the mains they got more transparent.


IMO there were tradeoffs- the problem being that the Sound Labs and MA-2s driving them were a pretty transparent system for which the crossover at the time was no match. Roger began to mess with the spacing on the sub, and the later versions seemed to get harder to drive on account of the spacing between the diaphragm and stator being increased (inverse square law...).


I like to play my system at some pretty high levels too. If you want the entrance of the gods into Valhalla to sound right, you can't pussyfoot around with the volume; Wagner scored a serious brass section at that point and its not the sort of thing you sleep to :)

Of course you understand that I spend far more time playing our own amps than I do most solid state amps, and by comparison my comments are correct. I concede there is a perspective issue afoot!

Dear @mijostyn : Agree, Soundlabs as any other passive speakers needs a self powered subwoofers, quality differences  for the better is almost day and knigth for all the room/system. On the high pass filter I oprefers at 80hz and not higher than that but is open to test it through several listening sessions till subs are integrated as a unity with the main speakers.

Btw, how can any one that the JC-1 are harsh or brigth with oput listen it mated with top speakers, makes no sense for say the least.

R.

Dear @charles1dad : Agree, even D.GGuillespie can sounds a little warmer or B.Webster that’s his style but even that tenor sax at real SPL at 1-2m. sounds/performs agressive.

Yes, if we are seated in a club normally the players SPL goes according the site but this not the rule because if you listen a full orchestra as the D.Ellington live or other of that type sounds will be brigthness, sometyimes even harsh and sometimes can be a little warm ( in the DE solos. ).

You are a player and if you seat at the side of a concert piano player with a concert piano and he playing at real concert SPL that marvelous piano sound and especially the " rigth hand " you will listen it not only brigthness but several times harsh and yes depending of the score can sounds a little warmer.

Charles my point here is that we music lovers and audiophiles need it’s a must to have nerafield live MUSIC experiences to know the real kind of sounds that the recording microphones pick-up.

Many audiophiles are accustomed to tubes electronics and they just do not like : brigthness, harsh or agressive real kind of sounds that LIVE MUSIC has and in the other side is not only because of tubes but normally those audiophiles do not listen their systems at very high SPL as @mijostyn and many other audiophiles and that’s why their choose is tubes and not SS but overall ( no matters what. ) SS puts all of us nearer to the recording, tubes can’t do it because has to many limitations everywhere from the phono stage to amps.

I think that the best learning lessons we can have is to attend as more times we can to listen LIVE MUSIC ( any kind. ) seated at true nearfield position.

Btw, if I was at 1m. from your trumpet I will listen it at higher SPL that you that are the player.

I know several orchestra players and jazz band members where its ears were less sensitive for degradation through the time hearing very high SPLs than a normal audiophile. Music Directors too.

I love MUSIC and my prefered instrument is piano but in general I like every instrument and horns are no exception, Masekela that was named by Elliot is very good in his style and that kind of rythm.

Yes, a muted horn as the one from the great M.Davis can sounds sweet but that same muted horn can sounds with harsh too.

Now, MUSIC is not only jazz or classical exist other kimnd  as rock and disco music and people do not likes its agressivity and harsness but that's what it's and SS gives us exactly that.

Appreciated your post.

R.

Hi Elliot, 
1 My speakers are Coincident Total Eclipse II and have a 14 ohm impedance (10 ohm minimum).
2 I played and studied trumpet many years ago in my youth and was not  a professional trumpeter by any stretch. But this experience was impactful and permanently sealed my admiration for skilled musicians (It isn't easy😊).
3 I'm not Korean. 
4  I can definitely understand your deep appreciation for Hugh Masekela. He was a master of the flugelhorn.

"Wonderful and warm sounding  trumpet" , exactly! 
As @ mijostyn observed, trumpets actually have a warmer tone live (No microphone Just pure horn) than speakers are capable of reproducing.  Such a good point as there's a slight harshness or edge imposed you'd never hear live and up close.
Charles 

When Miles wanted to be mellow he would point the trumpet down and possibly use a mute. When he wanted to let you have it he would point the trumpet right at you and fire away. It was up to the musician. It is mostly speakers that make trumpets sound harsher than normal.

Raul the JC1 has been superseded y the JC1+ which is now readily available. It is very similar but even larger and costs $16K a pair which is still dirt cheep in comparison to other amps of it's quality.

Ralph one thing the JC1 is not is harsh. It is one of the smoothest most effortless amps I have ever heard. Not that your MA2 is even better. The Sound Labs are certainly a match made in heaven with your MA2 given the extremely high impedance at low frequencies. I do believe this would give your amp more control/lower distortion at those frequencies. However I still believe in taking the deep bass away from ESLs. The diaphragms have a very limited Xmax. They get non linear easily creating distortion at higher frequencies never mind the doppler effect. The ESLs become even more effortless and higher sound pressure levels stay perfectly controlled and relaxed. Without subwoofers the ESLs will start sounding stressed at higher volumes. This is certainly the case with Acoustats. I can not see why it would be different with Sound Labs speakers. I will listen to them full range for a few days to see if this opinion holds. I do believe I listen at higher volumes than most people but I have discovered that with subwoofer I am quite satisfied 5 or so dB lower. Loudness compensation also helps a lot in this regard. 
My wife is my distortion meter. She will tolerate higher volumes with the subwoofers running:-)

charles1dad

on topic, what impedance are your speakers?

off topic, I love trumpets!

Wonderful and warm sounding trumpet! I'd love to hear you play live. Any recordings I could listen to? (send me a private message perhaps)

Reading Raul, I was just thinking of when I heard Hugh Masekela live, sitting close in a very small club in NYC. Fantastic, did I say Fantastic. I have many Hugh recordings, highly enjoyable, but live ...

I told him he was the best trumpet player ever. He replied, no, don't say that, looked at the ceiling, said there's a ghost of Louis Armstrong here, he was the best.

The musical performances I choose to go to (used to go to) were chosen to hear someone live. I sit around here saying to Donna, it must be awesome to hear ... live. Even then, it's a stage, it's a mic, a sound system, yet there is 

Are you Korean? Just being funny, I spent several years watching Korean Dramas on Dramafever.com. Many times the parents were referred to (kid's name) ..... dad. Charles not the most common Korean name.

regards, Elliott

Hi Raul,
As a former trumpeter I agree this instrument is certainly capable of sounding harsh, bright and aggressive. Believes me that the trumpet can definitely sound "warm,sweet and relaxed" . Just depends on what the musician wants to express or communicate while p,aying. And this is with the instrument in my hands. Can’t be anymore near field than that.

One of my former instructors who was a professional trumpeter (And fugelhorn) could play with such full, fat and warm tone (This is how he described it BTW) simply emotional and gorgeous harmonic color. So these terms aren’t "ridiculous adjectives " as you wrote, quite the contrary.

Raul having heard the trumpet intimately (And many instruments) for years ultimately pushed me toward tubes for what was a more realistic reproduction. I  respect your preference for solid state electronics. I’m just providing my own experience with very close proximity to live instruments. Tubes can impressively reproduce both the dynamic bite and the gentle sweetness instruments are capable of.
Charles

Btw, I respect your opinion and I don’t try to make any offense to any one but only post facts and that’s all.

Just before that:

That manufacturer is totally wrong and as usual he never gives/gaves a first hand measured facts that can prove his false information. Exacvtly like today always takes/took another reference that proves nothing here, so useless to give him an answer.

You know, in the world exist honest and dishonest people. Make your own judgement because this " episode " is repeated again for the 1,000 time.

The contradiction here is pretty obvious, as are the motives behind it.

I take it then, @rauliruegas that when given the choice of educating yourself, or being stupid, you didn't choose the former.


Instead, you chose to make me wrong for the sake of making yourself seem to look better. In time you might sort out that this technique does not work. But at any time, you will find that redemption is readily available- just read the article I linked, and google the topics I mentioned, and really study them. This is engineering school stuff- if you are fluent with it, you won't appear to be stupid *or* ignorant!

When you say:

"" and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm, extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ). ""

That’s how at real SPL sounds/performs a good SS electronics designs. Music have all those adjectives and many more: natural brigthness or natural agressivenes or even sometimes harsh sound is how the JC-1's will performs when the recording asked for. It's not because it needs higher feedback levels.

Issue is understaND HOW LIVE music SOUNDS AND WHAT RECORDING MICRO’S PICK-UP AT REAL spl: THAT’S ss THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO STAY NEARER TO THE RECORDING TRUER TO THE RECORDINGS. tUBES CAN’T DO IT FOR SEVERAL WELL DOCUMENTED REASONS/FACTS. 

You must certainly be aware that tubes have no problems at all reproducing the aggressive nature of a trumpet at close range (and played loudly, as that can make a big difference). In fact everything you mentioned in the above quote (which very much reads as if you are saying that only solid state amps can do) tube amps do easily. You really need to try harder than that.

What you missed in my comments was that I was not advocating tubes, in the same way that I was not advocating typical solid state amps that lack sufficient feedback. They **both** have failings, so you pick your poison: either a bit of euphonic warmth or a harshness and brightness.


OR:
If the amp has **enough** feedback, it will simply be neutral. To do that takes a lot of feedback, and as I mentioned, putting that much feedback on most tube or solid state amps will cause them to oscillate due to the phase margins being exceeded. Now I tried to get you to google that, so you'd know what I was talking about. This is the difference between education and ... well... not.


Now given that any amp will have distortion, the trick is to minimize it, and the way to do that with any amplifier is to simply allow it to drive a load that is higher impedance (and usually less weird phase angles as a result). IOW, simple advice: If you want the most out of your amplifier investment dollar, don't make your amp work hard for a living.


When the amp has an easy job, it makes less distortion. Less distortion means less coloration (warmth or brightness).

Dear @johnk : Please re-read my post and why I posted that way:

"" or a little extra warmth but the highs are detailed and relaxed. "

again where is that warm or relaxed kind of sounds coming from live MUSIC at nearfield listen to, a horn, cymballs, drums or even a violin or a piano. It does not exist and this is not a generalization and a fallacy: just does not exist.
Things are that the recording microphones are at nearfield position.

I posted :

"" and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm, extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ). ""

That’s how at real SPL sounds/performs a good SS electronics designs. Music have all those adjectives and many more: natural brigthness or natural agressivenes or even sometimes harsh sound is how the JC-1's will performs when the recording asked for. It's not because it needs higher feedback levels.

Issue is understaND HOW LIVE music SOUNDS AND WHAT RECORDING MICRO’S PICK-UP AT REAL spl: THAT’S ss THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO STAY NEARER TO THE RECORDING TRUER TO THE RECORDINGS. tUBES CAN’T DO IT FOR SEVERAL WELL DOCUMENTED REASONS/FACTS. ( capital letter a finger error. ).

That manufacturer is totally wrong and as usual he never gives/gaves a first hand measured facts that can prove his false information. Exacvtly like today always takes/took another reference that proves nothing here, so useless to give him an answer.

You know, in the world exist honest and dishonest people. Make your own judgement because this " episode " is repeated again for the 1,000 time.

Btw, I respect your opinion and I don’t try to make any offense to any one but only post facts and that’s all.

R.