16 ohm speakers: any amp sounds better with more resolution. speaker cables less critical.

Dear friends: in other thread with main subject: all tube phono stage and audiophile named Wavestreams unit that by coincidence years ago ( along other audio friends. ) when I was traveling in California ( La Joya. ) I had the opportunity to listen it in a very good audio system at the home of the gentleman that hosted me and not only listened but we had a direct comparisons against two top SS phonolinepreamps ( one of them Dartzeel. ).

Looking to google I found out a lot information on WSK and the designer and found out an interview with him where almost 70% of that inteview was centered to feedback what was for me an unexpected point and due that here the feedback subject was touched maybe for some of you could be interesting to read that interview:

https://positive-feedback.com/Issue1/InterviewScottFrankland.htm


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @mijostyn : I use two Velodyne's and are along the main speakers  but not firing to the seat position, here how are working:

"" VELODYNE HGS-15:

These two self powered subwoofers are in front of the main speakers and in side firing position.

It crossover at 78Hz. I do some tweaks in the circuit for a better quality sound reproduction and I changed the internal wiring that connects the woofer to the internal amplifier ( 50-60cm ), the original is a very bad zip cord one that I changed with Kimber Kable KCAG that I soldered directly to the woofers and directly to the amplifiers: with no connectors in between.

The power cord comes from Analysis Plus and is soldered directly to the inside subwoofer switch on/off with out no single connector kind ( at both sides/ends of the power cord ) and the IC cable is the Silver Oval by Analysis Plus too.

I change too the internal electrical power wires that goes from the subwoofer switch on/off to the Subs amplifier, I'm using KCAG by Kimber Kable.

Both subwoofers are " seated " over three Van Slike footers/isolators along with inverted Tip Toes ( position ) over these Van Slike isolators, so the subs are around 15-20cm. from the floor. Both subs have a dead-weight ( on top ) of 40kgs.

NOTE: I'm not using the subwoofer internal crossover or an external electronic crossover to send the signal to the ADS L 2030.

The crossover function ( high-pass. ) happens inside the two modified Levinson 20.6 mono-blocks at its input through a WIMA FKP1 cap and a single nude 0.001% Vishay 2575 resistor.

In this way the signal from the preamp goes normally ( pure and clean ) to the 20.6s and to the loudspeaker with out any additional electronic stage or cables/connectors and the signal was taken directly from the Essential 3160 by the Velodynes. ""

That's came from my virtual system details.

Now, there are several advantages/benefits to the room/system quality performance levels when we use two good self powered subwoofers ( for stereo music and at one seat position that is where normally we all listen the system 2 subs are way enough if are good designs and are well integrated to the main speakers. ) but perhaps the more critical an important is that, it does not matters if planar or dynamic speakers as mine, the IMD goes way lower exactly where that kind of distortion makes more harm that's a woofer or planar element handling at the same time frequencies as low as 20hz and intothe 200hz-400hz and even higher frequencie range.
 This creates/develops really high IMD including the harmonics of the reproduced signal and this kind of distortions modulates for the bad all the quality sound that goes out side our beloved speakers and not only that but due to that high IMD the THD goes higher too.

When the main speakers are liberated from the bass excursions of frequencies below 80-100hz  we can hear it no matters what because the quality improvement is really huge.

You can be sure that in the next example always things will goes as I stated:

if you own ( example only. ) a pair of Wilson Maxx3  that you are handling it through the top CH or Dan'gostino amplifiers those speakers will performs really good but if if you adds a pair of self powered subs crossed at around 80hz the differences for the better will be higher that any MAXX3 owner can imagine it.

This is the other critical and important advantages subs gaves us it does not matters if our passive speakers are full range and this advantage other that the one explained is that now those bass frequencies that are the foundation of MUSIC will be handled by a dedicated speaker designed in specific to mate/fullfil those bass frequencies needs along a dedicated amplifier too that makes the same.

Those MAXX3 never can performs better with out those subs that with them integrated to.

And believe me that difference is almost nigth and day.

R.

Dear @charles1dad  : Unfortunatelly wrong all your assumptions on me and the Agoners that I  can see I know it them better than you and no not many of them have several first hand experiences listening LIVE MUSIC at near field position in a Music Hall just behind the Orchestra Director listening the Fantastique or 1812 or the like, of course that tehre are several Agoners way superior on that kind of experience than me.
Or seated at 1m. from a drum set listening, at true real SPL, those Zildjan cimbals. 

I never talk or post something I'm not totally sure of it.

I'm not insulting any one but facts are facts and only for your records I was a tube lover electronics for at least 10 years and heard almost any tubes from Jolida to the Audio Note ke-gon passing for Atmasphere, Allnic, Audio Research, Conrad Johnson,  BAT, Cary, Wavac, VTL, Marantz, Luxman, etc, etc. Finally I learned. I'm sure you will too in the near future or maybe you already learned all what any music lover/audiophile must learns. If this is the case good for you.

Anyway, appreciated but wrong. No, it's not because tubes vs SS, the overall issue is a lot more complex that only that.


R.

Dear @mijostyn : Agree, Soundlabs as any other passive speakers needs a self powered subwoofers, quality differences  for the better is almost day and knigth for all the room/system. On the high pass filter I oprefers at 80hz and not higher than that but is open to test it through several listening sessions till subs are integrated as a unity with the main speakers.

Btw, how can any one that the JC-1 are harsh or brigth with oput listen it mated with top speakers, makes no sense for say the least.

R.

Dear @charles1dad : Agree, even D.GGuillespie can sounds a little warmer or B.Webster that’s his style but even that tenor sax at real SPL at 1-2m. sounds/performs agressive.

Yes, if we are seated in a club normally the players SPL goes according the site but this not the rule because if you listen a full orchestra as the D.Ellington live or other of that type sounds will be brigthness, sometyimes even harsh and sometimes can be a little warm ( in the DE solos. ).

You are a player and if you seat at the side of a concert piano player with a concert piano and he playing at real concert SPL that marvelous piano sound and especially the " rigth hand " you will listen it not only brigthness but several times harsh and yes depending of the score can sounds a little warmer.

Charles my point here is that we music lovers and audiophiles need it’s a must to have nerafield live MUSIC experiences to know the real kind of sounds that the recording microphones pick-up.

Many audiophiles are accustomed to tubes electronics and they just do not like : brigthness, harsh or agressive real kind of sounds that LIVE MUSIC has and in the other side is not only because of tubes but normally those audiophiles do not listen their systems at very high SPL as @mijostyn and many other audiophiles and that’s why their choose is tubes and not SS but overall ( no matters what. ) SS puts all of us nearer to the recording, tubes can’t do it because has to many limitations everywhere from the phono stage to amps.

I think that the best learning lessons we can have is to attend as more times we can to listen LIVE MUSIC ( any kind. ) seated at true nearfield position.

Btw, if I was at 1m. from your trumpet I will listen it at higher SPL that you that are the player.

I know several orchestra players and jazz band members where its ears were less sensitive for degradation through the time hearing very high SPLs than a normal audiophile. Music Directors too.

I love MUSIC and my prefered instrument is piano but in general I like every instrument and horns are no exception, Masekela that was named by Elliot is very good in his style and that kind of rythm.

Yes, a muted horn as the one from the great M.Davis can sounds sweet but that same muted horn can sounds with harsh too.

Now, MUSIC is not only jazz or classical exist other kimnd  as rock and disco music and people do not likes its agressivity and harsness but that's what it's and SS gives us exactly that.

Appreciated your post.

R.

Dear @johnk : Please re-read my post and why I posted that way:

"" or a little extra warmth but the highs are detailed and relaxed. "

again where is that warm or relaxed kind of sounds coming from live MUSIC at nearfield listen to, a horn, cymballs, drums or even a violin or a piano. It does not exist and this is not a generalization and a fallacy: just does not exist.
Things are that the recording microphones are at nearfield position.

I posted :

"" and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm, extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ). ""

That’s how at real SPL sounds/performs a good SS electronics designs. Music have all those adjectives and many more: natural brigthness or natural agressivenes or even sometimes harsh sound is how the JC-1's will performs when the recording asked for. It's not because it needs higher feedback levels.

Issue is understaND HOW LIVE music SOUNDS AND WHAT RECORDING MICRO’S PICK-UP AT REAL spl: THAT’S ss THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO STAY NEARER TO THE RECORDING TRUER TO THE RECORDINGS. tUBES CAN’T DO IT FOR SEVERAL WELL DOCUMENTED REASONS/FACTS. ( capital letter a finger error. ).

That manufacturer is totally wrong and as usual he never gives/gaves a first hand measured facts that can prove his false information. Exacvtly like today always takes/took another reference that proves nothing here, so useless to give him an answer.

You know, in the world exist honest and dishonest people. Make your own judgement because this " episode " is repeated again for the 1,000 time.

Btw, I respect your opinion and I don’t try to make any offense to any one but only post facts and that’s all.

R.

Dear @atmasphere : Totallñy wrong about the quality level performance of the JC-1’s or today top SS amplifiers where almost all of them are non-feedback and many pure class A, the JC-1’s works in class A with its first 30 watts.ear .

Did you heard the Evidence’s mated with the JC-1’s or the top Soundlabs with those monobloks or with other top speakers?

" all due to distortion .." what are you talking about, where are your facts? as always only bla, bla, bla and low knowledge level audiophiles here and elsewhere think that because you are a tube manufacturer you are the bible on amps but about SS you have nothing and always you trying to diminish the SS alternative with no facts and the only reason you do it is that you are taking money as other tube manufacturers from low knowledge level audiophiles that unfortunatelly just have no idea how live MUSIC sounds at near field position. As all of us you are a member of the corrupted AHEE and unfortunatelly you are the darkness part of that AHEE.

Here it’s the measured " distortion " of the JC-1’s even at 1 ohm where puts nothing less than " 4.2kW into 1 ohm (27.2dBW, magenta). The latter is equivalent to an output current of 64.7A! "

https://www.stereophile.com/content/parasound-halo-jc-1-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

This is the J.Atkinson conclusion after he finished the measurements and along that it’s the review down there:

" This is excellent measured performance. The Halo JC 1 is not only the best amplifier to come from Parasound, it ranks up there with the best high-end heavyweights. "

If you don’0t have true facts/measures on what you said stop to spread your poison/false information and please learn that live MUSIC at near field position is everything but warm and it’s brigth, agressive, high dynamic power, with ryhtm, extraordinary at both frequency extremes, sometimes harsh ( listen to a trumpet/horn player at real SPL seated at 3 meters . ).

Recording microphones are " seated " at near field positions not at 20m-30m.

Warm, sweet, relaxed, and other ridiculous adjectives to explain the MUSIC sound in a room/systems is exactly what the corrupted AHEE teachs/teached for the last 50 years to audiophiles but that AHEE in this specific subject were and are only spreading lies deceiving/misleading audiophile gentlemans only to take their money and people like you even try to explain that kind of deceive with no facts.

I don’t care what the audiophiles like ( it’s a personal privilege. ) but with out any doubt all the tube owners are listening ( no matters what ) something really away from what the recording microphones pick-up during recording sessions and in the other side good SS electronics designs ( like the " old " JC-1’s. ) puts any one of use nearer and truer to the recording where tube is only a " caricature ".

Go a head making money, nothing wrong with that but stop to spread false information against SS that you can’t prove or proved and learn from other tube manufacturers that never post in any internet audiophile forums that totally false information in favor of tubes and against SS electronics . Learn from all those honest gentlemans.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : JC-1’s are great monoblock amplifiers and is unfortunated that today are out of production because can compets or could be a true challenge to even names as FM Acoustics, Boulder, Gryphon, CH, Dartzeel and the like.


Years ago I meeted by first time to the JC-1’s that were handled a pair of superlative Dynaudio Evidence speakers in the room/system of a friend of a friend of mine.

I readed in those times about the Evidence speakers but never imagined that were handled by so " humble " Parasound amplifiers and was a glorious listening time with both friends and we reapeated that kind of listening session several times. Here the Evidence:

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/286/index.html

Now and this you can be absolutely sure that no tube amplifier can beats the Soundlabs/JC-1’s experience and you can be sure too that the Sounlabs- self powered subwoofers ( 80hz-100hz. ) combination is a must to do it no matters what.

Enjoy it.

Btw, the 16 ohms issue really matters to tube amp owners, not many 16 ohms speakers in a market with 90% ( at least ) of 4 ohm-8 ohm nominal impedance specs.

In the other side SS amps as the JC-1’s can handle from low to high impedances where you can’t detect the small increment in distortion level.

When a tube amp normally ( manufacturer spec. ) has 1% a SS amp with low or high impedance could goes to 0.2-3% when the manufacturer spec overall gives 0.01%.
Normally tube owners " can’t " listen 1-2% of distortion in their amps or just do not care about.

With a little of patience any one can buy second hand the JC-1’s for very good price. John Curl made very good design job with.

This is what I'm talking about:

https://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/774/index.html

R.

@luisma31 : Mills are good not great, great are the Vishay ones nothing can beats it.

R.

Dear @atmasphere  @lewm  and friends:  In reality " things " are not so " simple " as both of you posted to me.

The whole speaker impedance subject is a lot more than only the deviations through the frequency response of the speakers because we have to take in count to phase and angle that could " helps " to the amplifiers to develops even higher distortions and if you look to the amplifiers measurements I linked you can see that how good or not an amplifier can drive an specific speaker model.

If can be true that some SS amplifier can have some " problem " with some specific speakers ( I never found out one SS amplifier that had problems about or at least I just coul not detect it and I'm extremely demanding listener, not an easy one. ) where exist a higher trouble is with tubes even that the system owners are satisfied with and likes what they listen with.

Problem is that speaker manufacturers never gives the whole impedance facts/measurements/charts. Tha's why generalizations to say 8 ohm speaker spec means almost nothing. I choosed at random ( between hundred of ST measurement. ) and you can read there that your words are not exactly rigth with some of those speakers, same for maplifiers.

I love Soundlab speakers and for me is the only today electrostatic that I really like it.
My friend Guillermo ( a wealthy one gentleman. ) owned big Wilson that performed very good. Suddenly he took a fligth tp SLC in Utha and he bougth and brougth with him a pair of top of the line Soundlabs and the JC-1 amplifiers recomended by the designer him self.
For me was a surprise because never told me he wanted to change the Wilson, so and before I listen his new system and when both been at my place testing one of the tonearm prototype he told me about and I asked why and he told me that were the only speakers with the kind of sound quality performance levels that the very old ones in my room/system. For me was a true unexpected nice comment by him but when I listened at his place I really fall in love with Soundlabs/JC1 combination and if not exactly it sounds similar, obviously I like it.

This Soundlab measurements are not the today ones but more or less gaves an idea about and confirm that in the bass range what you said of very high impedance that for a SS amplifier is not " welcomed " however I heared no single trouble in those Soundlabs driving by the truly good JC-1 monoblocks:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/sound-lab-1-electrostatic-loudspeaker-measurements


R.

Dear @lewm : I can't understand why you and any one else speak of 16 ohm, 8 ohm or 4 ohm speakers when the speaker impedance is not flat , it changes over its frequency range.

The measurements made it by Stereophiles confirm it and it does not matters what the speaker manufacturer specs are.

We can't choose an amplifier ( tube or SS. ) founded by the manufacturer nominal impedance spec because this spec is away from reality and all those "" bla, bla, bla " in good shape opinions on lower or higher distortions and the like has no true value. Facts are the only reality.

Any kind of audio items measurements made it by Stereophile always are really enligthing and learning lessons for many of us, at least for me that I'm not an expert as other gentlemaNS HERE.

The OP  ask something on 16 ohm speakers when does not exist in the way he was and is thinking.

If we look these measurements of 3 way different amplifiers along the speakers measurements posted we can understand the whole subject  in a better way:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-stellar-m1200-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gryphon-essence-mono-power-amplifier-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/balanced-audio-technology-vk-56se-power-amplifier-measurements


All those kind of measurements needs no words, are just facts. Self explained facts.

R.

Dear friends: I respect all gentlemans opinions but this is what defines the amplifier need it. Not what said atmasphere or Dudley or Fremer or Teektonany one else  because one is the manufacturer theoretical impedance ( been 4ohms or 16 ohms. ) at the end it does not matters till we know what these facts shows us:


https://www.stereophile.com/content/acora-srb-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/g%C3%B6bel-high-end-divin-marquis-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/von-schweikert-ultra-55-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-m2-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-sasha-wp-loudspeaker-measurements

https://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-gold-300-loudspeaker-measurements

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.